General Motors discussions

imidazol97

You're saying that a 1973 era Chev association when they were powerful, smooth, comfortable, and solid and lasted a long, long time because of the Body by Fisher Mark of Excellence... I believe that would resonate with those of us who were around then to make the association. Add proper music (the key to attention catching with any ad these days) that also makes an assocation besides the visuals.

Ahhh. I see it now. It's like the Smokey Mountain ads for tourism. Show a full-sized Chev with good connotation before the downsized, EPA stuffed up motors era started, with a family hopping out at a tourist area or typical family stop. Then show other Chev products that families might drive with more modernly dressed families spilling out at the tourist area. And end it with the current offering looking even roomier and more capable of suiting a family, i.e., the earphones in the Outlook for the back seat passengers I checked out the other evening (I know Outlook's the Saturn...grin.).

Dolly Parton helped with a tourism set of ads for Smokey Mountain Park and her theme park in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee, and they were really nicely done. Maybe GM should... nahhh..

xrunner2

I think that the best thing for GM to do is let Mercedes take car of the Chrysler problem. If Chrysler takes Mercedes down with it, that will not hurt GM. However, I can't see that Chrysler will do GM any real good, and would probably hurt GM's recovery.

GM has too many brands already. But, if they were to take on Chrysler, Chrysler minivans and Jeeps would be a positive addition to GM. GM never did figure out how to make a decent minivan. Also, GM could add in the RWD Chryslers and Dodges and forget about the Australian connection. But, they would have to dump Saturn, Pontiac and Buick and Saab.

Chrysler is more of a prestige name than Buick anyway. The big loss would be Pontiac names of GTO and Trans Am. But, just like Ford doing rebadging, GM could come out with Dodge GTO and Dodge Trans Am models in a line up to include the upcoming Dodge Challenger. Dodge and their Hemi was always stronger than Pontiac.

mariner7

Agreed, GM's a victim of its own past, when it had 50% of the US market and needed all those divisions. But it didn't have to add Saturn and Hummer in the last 20 years when its market share was starting to go down.

62vetteefp

DaimlerChrysler is considering taking a minority stake in General Motors as payment for Chrysler if a deal between the two carmakers goes ahead.

According to people familiar with the situation, the Stuttgart-based German-American carmaker is weighing this all-share option. Other possibilities include a cash sale of Chrysler to private equity or industry investors and a flotation of the loss making unit.

"They are interested in who takes Chrysler over and they would be happy to take equity in GM in return," a leading shareholder said yesterday, citing discussions with DaimlerChrysler's senior managers.

Buying part or all of Chrysler's industrial assets for shares placed with DaimlerChrysler would relieve financially strapped GM of the need to raise new cash, which it would find onerous given the current "junk" status of its debt.

jkr2106

I agree they waste resources by duplicity, but cutting brands just is not feasible to solve the problem of brands/models competing against eachother. Why not just focus the brands and only offer models specific to its focus? This may result in a reduced lineup, but it would solve this duplicity.

(Of course chevy and saturn may overlap with their midsize offerings, but they will be targeting different demographics.)

62vetteefp

Now I get it. Since Chrysler cannot sell there cars here a Chinese company buys Chrysler and rebadges them as Chinese and then they will sell. Wow, that is what China thinks of us Ameericans.

Chery isn't acting out of altruism or love for Chrysler. The Chinese company is smart. It has studied how its corporate Asian siblings entered the U.S. market – initially by strengthening their visibility on the West Coast, where regional buyers are least resistant to import newcomers and are very supportive of Asian brands.

The Chinese know that what doesn't sell here as a Chrysler product could very well sell as an identifiable Asian model – as long as the quality and price are right.

fintail

It couldn't hurt.

I am thinking of a line of thought like "We've made good cars before, we have the know-how, and we are making good cars again".

lemko

Chrysler is more of a prestige name than Buick anyway.

Uh, Chrysler WAS more of a prestige name until the early '80s when they slapped the once-proud name on K-car derivatives and minivans. The Chrysler name didn't start to regain any prestige until lately with the 300. The PT Cruiser should've always been a Plymouth. I'd hardly say a Sebring is any more prestigious than a Malibu.

dreasdad

The argumant would be real good if GM wasn't buying out overseas factories to make their cars for them. And you can bet the profits they are making on those cars they build
AND sell overseas are not being brought back over here. They are leaving them in the overseas banks so they do not have to pay taxes on them..

The Trariff on trucks is already higher than on cars, that is why Toyota and Nissan builds all of there trucks here rather than overseas.

xrunner2

Uh, Chrysler WAS more of a prestige name until the early '80s when they slapped the once-proud name on K-car derivatives and minivans.

Didn't Buick tarnish their brand/image with a lot of smallish and inelegant designs in the same time frame?

The Chrysler name didn't start to regain any prestige until lately with the 300. The PT Cruiser should've always been a Plymouth. I'd hardly say a Sebring is any more prestigious than a Malibu.

Chrysler 300 could replace Buick Lucerne. Being Plymouth is long gone, maybe PT should have been a Dodge. GM could dump the Sebring. Lineup could be: Chevy, Dodge, Chrysler, Cadillac, GMC/Jeep. Still too many brands, but this combo makes sense if you have to have 5-6 names.

sls002

I think at one time Chrysler was as prestigeous as Buick, but I think not more so. The Imperial was on a par with Cadillac. The 300 letter series was good, till Chrysler cashed in in the mid-sixties by making a plain 300 model. Now the 300 is a plain car, not an entry level luxury car. If it were upgraded, it could replace the Lucerne.

What GM has been doing is pairing Chevy with Cadillac and Pontiac, Buick and GMC. Saturn is off by themselves.

grbeck

rockylee: Toyota, would never buy Chrysler because they don't like unions thus is why they came to america to get away from them in Japan.

Toyota wouldn't buy Chrysler because it prefers to grow from within, as opposed to taking over other companies.

Toyota's unions in Japan are similar to company unions - which were banned in the U.S. by the Wagner Act prior to World War II.

Toyota didn't build its North American plants to "get away" from the Japanese unions; it built them because its sales were expanding to the point it made sense to build vehicles in North America that were designed and engineered for North America.

brightness04

While we are at it, we should demand the same of every company that ever put in a computer so that they can get more work done with less people. Heck, car companies should be severely punished! Just imagine how many more cabbie jobs there would be if the cabs move around only at 5mph instead of 50mph. The damn horse drawn taxi jobs should never have been "oursourced" to cars!

brightness04

"Dumping" is one of the most brain-dead concepts out there. Is humanitarian aid "dumping"? Should we outlaw all charitable organizations or non-profits now? Wannabe monopolists should be stopped when they try to jack up price based on monopolistic power. "Anti-dumping" inevitably smack of incumbents trying to extract underserved profits at the expense of everyone else, in situations where there is no hope for "dumpers" to ever jack up price and recoup the expense of "dumping" campaigns. So the "dumping" charge makes no sense whatsoever. More often than not, "anti-dumping" is little more than a government-sanctioned price setting cartel.

brightness04

Compared to their respective purchasing power, Japanese Yen is still over-valued compared to the US dollar. Chinese Yen/Yuan(RMB) is under-valued. However, it's doubtful that a free floating RMB will appreciate against the dollar. Ask yourself, would you keep your retirement savings in RMB, a currency that can be printed without limit by a government that very much lacks transparency (put it mildly ;-)? If RMB were to become free floating, there would be a massive market demand to convert RMB savings to US Dollar and Euro, making RMB even cheaper . . . in other words, even cheaper Chinese goods!

Domestic production requirement for cars was in force before 2005. Dropping that requirement was a condition for allowing China into WTO.

brightness04

I don't want to pay the bill but think the workers deserve to stay retired after puting in 30+ years

Do all victims of Ponzi scams deserve to get their money back, not from the scammer who already spent the money, but made whole by the government? If you do, then you definitely are not averse to paying the bill :-)

blue330xi

I really doubt Chery could buy Chrysler. And even if they did why should they think any different about Americans? The topselling foreign automaker in china is GM according to http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060105/AUTO01/601050436/1148- - .
China's #1 export partner is the US followed by Japan. Why shouldent they think they can sell cars here? They buy our cars if they can offer a cheaper product then the korean's (Kia/Hyundai) why shouldent we reciprocate? Believe it or not japan's #1 export partner is also the USA followed by China (CIA world factbook). Japan's #1 import partner is China followed by the USA. While China dosent import as many US goods as Japan it is very likely because it is not affordable to them...not because they have a bias against them. If you want to see how they really think of american's consider that both China and Japans most important economic ally is the USA. And while the consumers in japan may not like our cars they sure do buy a lot of food, computer components, fuel, textiles, and chemicals from the USA. You do know that japan isn't self sustainable for food like the USA is? This is the reason it is so hard for me to understand the resentment to Japanese and Chinese Cars. It is from people looking at only one part of the picture, the auto industry is not the only US industry and isnt even the biggest. If they make a good product, and they are our allie's why not buy it? Also there economy's both export more then they import because while they are large they are still 1/2 the size of the USA. We import more then we export, so you cant expect japan with its limited natural resources or china with its third world living and population crises to match our ability to import foreign goods. The US is still the largest economy so it would be hardpressed for any one other nation to buy as much stuff from the US as they sell to the US (Canada is closest to doing this buy the way).

brightness04

Patriotism is over-rated when it comes to people spending their own money. Japanese certainly have no hiccups buying American fashion items and pop culture (if anything, shouldn't that be even more taboo if Japanese consumers were obsessed with patriotism??). Guess what are the best selling import car brands in Korea? Japanese brands; that's in a country that still demands war atrocity compensation from Japan.

Individuals are quite smart, despite all the brainwashing that the elites of every nation-state tries to behoove on its citizenry.

brightness04

I agree with your sentiment on most car ads. Sometimes I wonder if all ads are designed for the feable-minded who can be swayed by the ads. Kinda makes sense. Then it's little wonder that most ads are lame.

grbeck

A big problem with using heritage is that many car buyers are women, and from my experience, they care little about cars built in the 1960s and 1970s. They see little, if any, connection between those vintage vehicles and the vehicles that are now offered for sale. There are some exceptions, such as the Mustang or Corvette. But you aren't going to sell them a Cobalt by telling them how wonderful a 1965 Malibu SS was. I see this firsthand with my wife, who was born in 1970.

Another problem is that GM's best years were over by the early 1970s. Consider that the youngest block of buyers in the early 1970s was probably around 23-25. They would now be in their late 50s or early 60s. They still buy lots of cars, but GM needs to get younger buyers. That is where it is hurting. The cars of the 1950s and 1960s have little relevance to these younger buyers. Remember that people who post on this site are NOT typical new vehicle buyers, who don't have our level of knowledge or interest in older cars.

As someone in his mid-40s, I started buying cars in the late 1980s, and, trust me, GM wants to run as far away from those years as fast as it can (with few exceptions)! Consider that today's 35-year-old probably became "car conscious" in the early 1990s (turning 16 in 1988, and graduating from college around 1994, which is when most people really look for their own vehicle). Once again, those were hardly GM's glory years.

As for The Fast and the Furious generation...using nostalgia for them would be about as effective as one of the old-line networks wooing viewers away from Fox's American Idol by advertising that it sponsored The Lawrence Welk Show or Sing Along With Mitch back in the day.

brightness04

Very good point. It's tough to dig out of a hole in the real world of "what have you done for me . . . lately?"

lemko

...was sort of between Buick and Cadillac in my opinion. They last held that spot when they made those big, awesome New Yorker Broughams in the late 1970s. They slipped a little with the slow-selling R-bodies and it was all downhill after they started building K-body New Yorkers and LeBarons. Imperial was on par with Cadillac and Lincoln up to about 1973.

fintail

I see what you mean, I don't disagree. As a 29 year old born decades too late, I probably see cars differently than most of my peers. I've been focusing on the past since I was young. And I guess just because MB can get away with a heritage theme doesn't mean everyone else can.

They just need to do something different from what they've been doing.

geo9

Rochester Div. in Rochester NY is hiring !!!!!!!!!!!
Mostly engineers and other white collar folks..........

I am in Daytona right now waiting for bike week to start!
Weather is great and have been touring around flogging
moms Caddy !!!!!!!!!!!!

Going out on the gambling boat Thurs. with my retired
Delphi white collar boss uncle. Gonna have to ask him about how his severely cut pension and med. benefits are
effecting him and/or if any are being restored.......

Not to mention IF the reports of the supposed "white
knight" is gonna come to the rescue and buy up Delphi
and pump new life into it !!!!!!!!!!
To do so would require some hard choices..........

I KNOW our Delphi stock is still in the dumper!

fintail

The sad thing is that it must work, or they wouldn't do it as much as they do. I am not optimistic about the majority being anything but feeble minded when it comes to cars anyway.

rockylee

Toyota didn't build its North American plants to "get away" from the Japanese unions;

grbeck, here's the deal. Historically americans out work the Japanese 3 to 1 because americans don't ask for much vacation, work weekends and holidays if the company needs them, and we are more willing to work longer hours per day. We as a nation will sacrifice our family to make an extra buck and whether thats good or bad, is moot. It's just a fact. With all the bad of that fact their is some good as we have the best overall economy in the world as that extra work has paid off. The fact remains that we are on a downward spiral and we have borrowed more money on our credit card (national debt/deficit) than we can pay back thus the bankers (China, Japan, Russia) are buy treasury bonds that are esentially owning a large stake in our country.

62vetteefp, that areticle of the Chinese buying Chrysler is most interesting. I feel embarrassed as an american that they are so confident the people on the left coast will gladly buy Chinese imports so long as it's NOT american. One would think those words would echo in peoples minds and have a impact. :sick:

62vetteefp, I also can't believe this deal of GM, buying Chrysler with DCX buying GM stock might actually happen. It will be most interesting to see how this plays out. My question is this ? Will GM, have access to Diamler Mercedes Benz technology like blutec diesels, platforms, etc, if they do buy Chrysler ? If so, how long do they have access to those technologies before they have to find replacements or is this a pernament merge with GM, taking a majority stake in Chrysler ?

This is most interesting to me. I'm sure you like me will be paying close attention to this story as it heats up.

Rocky

rockylee

blue330xi,

Well just because the Chinese or Japanese, can't buy as much from us as we do them isn't my problem. They shouldn't be allowed to dump on our market like they did in the 70's and 80's once again with their cheap exports because of a "artificially" cheap yen/yuan. That is when you start having problems here at home called a trade deficit which has caused long-term damages. The things they do import as you posted: food, computer components, fuel, textiles, and chemicals from the USA. I ask you where is that crap made. Sure some of it is made here but most of it is made oversea's and just because and american firm exports to Japan, from a off-shored business does not make it american. That is where the numbers are flawed pal.

Rocky

rockylee

agree.

Rocky

rockylee

brightness, here ya go again taking things to the far extreme. :P

Rocky

rockylee

Japanese Yen is still over-valued compared to the US dollar.

Is is ? Well many economist are saying different.

Domestic production requirement for cars was in force before 2005. Dropping that requirement was a condition for allowing China into WTO.

We need to as a nation to pull out of the WTO, because we aren't getting a fair shake. Those aren't my words but are the words of economists and some conservatives.

Rocky

rockylee

Fintail,

So you don't like american cars ? What is so bad about some of the new models that are out now or are coming out ? Do you not like the new CTS ? I'm optomistic to think that your views will chage over the next few years as I'd assume you might like some of the new RWD cars like the Impala. I agree the Cobalt isn't a great car and needs to be replaced. The Saturn Astra, is a lot better attempt. GM, still has a lot of work to do to clean up it's line-up but they have made some major progress and yes it's going to take time and I know you already know this.

Rocky

rockylee

geo9,

Your Delphi stock investment is a long-term. Don't think your going to get rich over night. If I had $100,000 to invest right now it would be in Delphi, for the long-term. That parts company will succeed once again so stay confident. I predict their stock once they pull out of bankruptcy will climb once again. Delphi, was voted the most technological company in the world in 2005' and most of their products haven't been released pal. Once I get my other money which is quite a bit I'm going to drop a lot of it in Delphi Stock. 5-10 years from now that stock will be over $10-$40 a share. My long-term plan is to get rich off of Delphi. I know the company quite well as I still have a few family members working for them. Dad, says I'd be a fool to not invest $$$$ in Delphi, for the long-term. Yes it's a risk but they are diversifying their business outside of automobiles and are making parts for Cell Phones, and major medical equipment. They will be a major player someday. I'm confident. My wife wants us to put all our money into a new house but I told her we can live like average folks and have a mortgage, maybe drive some used cars and in 5-10 years cash some of it in and live like we always wanted to. Nor rich but well-off. I told her were would have enough money to pay for our kids college and build a McMansion. I told her we can take this risk or play it safe and have the nice house that is nearly or all paid for. This will be my biggest decision once the oppertunity presents its self hopefully soon.

Rocky

fintail

Oh, I think most American cars are just fine...but personally, not much gets me going. But to be honest, the same can be said about most new cars. I'm just as bored with Toyota as I am with Chevy.

Yes, I think the RWD will help, and the new CTS looks light years ahead of the current model. However, these are all still future models, and I am not much of a new car buyer at the moment anyway...so they don't impact me. My car is my one big excess...financially I am fairly prudent otherwise...so I want something special.

rockylee

Well I have a present that would looked wrapped around you

link title Fintails Stress Reliever

Fintail, is that a good enough american car pal ?

Rocky

plekto

The problem with China is three things.

1 - they are still Communist. They could literally kick us out tommorrow and take our assets, factories, and everything else with no repayment. Now, it's not likely, but darn it if I want to build a factory in China when I won't even own it.

2 - They openly reject patents. If they get ahold of Chrysler, all of that R&D and such is open to every company in China. That's a disaster. It would be like giving all of GM's blueprints to Kia and trusting them not to ream them in return in a decade.

3 - Most of all, though, is China has no respect for U.S. unions or workers. The bleed will be a wholesale slaughter of the workforce and factories. $10-12 an hour workers without a union contract will be the only option. Healthcare and the rest - yeah, right - like the U.S. government can do anything legally in China.

Converesly, GM does care. And Chrysler only has three real divisions worth taking over. International, Jeep, and Hummer. Rebadge the Viper as - well, nothing. It's a one-off car - THE VIPER. That leaves the minivans, which slap a Pontiac badge on them and you're done(toss the GM crud in the deal - no big loss)

GM recently(history-wise) got rid of Oldsmobile, so adding two makes isn't a big deal, IMO.

Also, if need be, GM could sell shares in its other partnerships if it had to(Daewoo for instance). It's such a good deal I can't imagine they wouldn't want it at almost any cost. They can toss Daewoo and the other crud - or even toss Saab if they have to.

On that note, Saab might be a good deal sweetener. Mercedes would actualy want Saab by comparison, since their technology is in several good small cars in Europe.

- Some stock, Daewoo, and Saab. Bet they could easily swing that.

rockylee

Is rich as you are you should atleast have a couple new rides to enjoy life with. I'd be willing to bet you have a Trophy Girlfriend by now ? :P

Rocky

rockylee

http://www.autoobserver.com/2007/02/chrysler_as_the.html#more

Rocky

rockylee

Plekto clear this is up for me pal.

We get Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep and we give up Saab, and Daewoo ? and DCX makes a investment big enough to give us the capital needed to buy Chrysler Corp ?

Hmmmmmmmm Not a bad idea. I guess I'd have to see how it looks on paper.

Rocky

plekto

Nice article. But GM is seriously going to hurt if some overseas company gets not just a foothold, but a major chunk of the market.

I forgot one other thing.
4 - China would control the production of the Humvee which our military uses as its main vehicle! OW? That alone has to be causing quite a few military people to be getting grey hairs.

Shoot, letting India or any non-U.S. company or inteerest control that is probably the #1 sticking point why Mercedes isn't putting it up on the open market - but wants to sell it to a specific owner/group it can trust.

And lastly, the article forgot the value of International, which Chrysler also owns.

rockylee

Good points......

Rocky

62vetteefp

I think anything is on the table for GM. I doubt if GM will "take a major stake" in Chrysler. Mercedes will take a very minor stake in GM.

As far as Mercedes receiving stock it would allow GM to take over Chrysler without GM using cash reserves and allows Mercedes to dump Chrysler and get something for it because I doubt it is worth that much if you look at equity/assets (facilities AND brand) vs. legacy.

GM might also make deals to tie up with Mercedes and share both ways. Remember Mercedes is using the GM two mode transmisison. Doubt if it would go to sharing platforms.

62vetteefp

I do not see any play for Daewoo. That is a powerhouse company now and GM will not let it go. GM has had it for such a short time and it already has gone from a bankrupt company to a profit maker (overseas).

I doubt Saab would even come into play.

62vetteefp

China would control the production of the Humvee which our military uses as its main vehicle! OW? That alone has to be causing quite a few military people to be getting grey hairs.

What does the Humvee have anything to do with this? Not part of Chrylser and sometime will be out of production.

http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,86210,00.html

International harvestor is not part of chrysler.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Harvester

62vetteefp

What GM has been doing is pairing Chevy with Cadillac and Pontiac, Buick and GMC. Saturn is off by themselves.

GM is in no way trying to pair Cadillac with Chevy. It may happen because dealers are independent and deals are made between them but GM is not recommending this combo.

62vetteefp

Lets keep this forum close to the subject!!! We have the same players here now and it always gets closed down. Somebody shows an article that is relevant and then there are a dozen comments that go back and forth that disagree with the article and go of course from the forum intent and then bye bye forum.

PF_Flyer

Perhaps we can avoid that fate this time? :confuse:

1487

"If you are tired of people complaining, you need to tell GM to get some competent ad people on the payroll. It's not the complainers who are wrong. If some association with the brand puts them off, they will patronize another brand."

Buying a car strictly based on advertising is silly. Furthermore I dont think ALL GM ads are bad, its not like they are all done by the same agencies. I like GMC and Saturn ads.

1487

I think its a gross generalization to say American cars are dull and no more exciting that Toyotas. I think the new CTS, CTS-V, STS-V, Escalade, Yukon Denali, Vette, XLR, Aura 300C and SRT8, Charger SRT, Mustang GT, Fusion, Grand Cherokee SRT and Soltice/Sky count as less than dull vehicles. Honestly I cant think of one exciting Toyota product unless you count the Camry SE V6 and even that is a stretch. If you dont find any of the models I mentioned to be at least a little bit interesting I am wondering what really interests you. What does "get you going" anyway? Acuras? Nissans?

1487

"GM has many brands and models competing against each other. Don't see that with Honda or Toyota"

Of course you dont, GM is declining from a dominant position in the US marker while Toyota and Honda have been slowly building their presence here for 50 years. They both started very small and have developed into full line automakers. When Toyota started here they only had one brand and now they have 3. Honda and Datsun were one brand each and now they have two each. Compare the Avalon to the ES350 and then tell me there is no overlap in Toyota's lineup. Do the same for the Accord and TSX/TL. Before they axed the RSX you could do the same for the RSX and the Civic coupe.

Again, GM cannot magically transform itself into a clone of Toyota due to the extreme costs involved in reducing brands.

sls002

If they are combining Pontiac with Buick and GMC, then that does leave Chevy on its own or with Cadillac. In any case, our old Cadillac dealer, who was combined with GMC and Oldsmobile, was not allowed to take Cadillac with them when the took over the Pontiac-Buick dealership. They were allowed to keep GMC, but Chevy got Cadillac.

Please note that I am not saying that GM requires a Cadillac dealer to pair with a Chevy dealer, only that it makes sense for a multi-brand GM dealer to have either a Chevy-Cadillac combination or the Pontiac-Buick-GMC combination. There are other combinations possible too. A full range combination would be possible (Cadillac-Chevy-Pontiac-Buick-GMC-Hummer-Saturn).