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GM does not own the Hummvee vehicles nor build them. the opposite, they built the Hummer for GM. But no matter anymore because no one is building the Hummer H1 anymore. the H2 is built by the Humvee folks but have nothing to ddo with the wartime products.
Let's say the deal went through and GM got Chrysler, Dodge & Jeep. With Dodge mostly being the truck/performance division under ChrysCo, would you see GM giving up Pontiac/GMC, particularly Pontiac? Seeing as though Dodge has a stable of SRTs and a footprint in the performance market, why would GM need to beef up Poncho? Instead of importing the G8, maybe switch that to Buick. This is assuming the redesigned 300/Magnum/Charger/Challenger/SRT-variants aren't still utilizing the older MB platform. Now the big ? would be the Viper, keep it/dump it? I mean, from day one (at least after the T-bird reprieve and Zora Arkus Duntov & Ed Cole got their hands on it), the Corvette's been the darling of Chevrolet/GM for the performance / sports car icon. With Dodge coming over, would it spell doom for Viper?
And with GMC, with them really being Chevys and being aped into Caddys, is there any need for them if Dodge comes over?
What are your, and other posters', thoughts?
As you stated there are many, many possibilities it's endless.
No one really wants Chrysler for a decent price to Daimler. So Mercedes will almost have to pay someone to take the burden (dealers/health care/retirees/cars in the field). GM is in the best position to do this (other than Chinese). Last years results show this.
If GM does this they will have to have a plan in place to close at least half the dealers down, shut half the plants and remove 75% of the non UAW work force. It will be a bloodbath.
This will only happen if Daimler pays to sell the division or somehow the above happens before the sale.
Can Daimler do a US bankruptcy and then sell what is left/wanted to GM? i.e. get rid of the retiree/legacy/UAW obligations?
Oh, yeah. I keep forgetting that GM transmissions have been sooo much better. Right.
GM could only wish it had a transmission as good as the 545RFE. And Dodge will have a six-speed auto before GM will.
http://www.saturn.com/byo/byoSelectStyle.sa?year=2007&make=Saturn&model=AURA&mod- elId=107&subModel=&subModelId=314
And Dodge will have a six-speed auto before GM will.
They have one... My two T60E and T65E have gone to 150k Mi with no problems.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Chrysler car...360K (140k PT, 143K 300)
Chrysler Truck.250k (160K T&C, 78K Pacifica)
Dodge car......316k (92K Caliber, 114k Charger)
Dodge Truck....761k (364k PU, 211K Caravan)
Jeep...........460k (140k GC, 133k Liberty)
The above (besides the rest of the Jeep vehicles) make up the most of the non fleet volume. Most of the non listed vehicles are heavy fleet.
At Chrysler the 300 is the good seller with the PT a vehicle I do not understand as to why it is a Chrysler. I would kill off the Chrysler brand. There is nothing there that can really help GM (cars). The T&C could become a Buick. The Crossfire is a Mercedes and will go away. The Sebring is nothing special and could also go away. The Pacifica is old and could be dropped with the new Lamda vehicles a better choice. The PT sells well but needs to be redone soon. The 300 could be sold at Cadillac or Buick for awhile to keep the volume and profit.
In a Dodge vs. Pontiac comparison Pontiac sells more cars and even the old Grand Prix sells almost as many vehicles as the Charger (Of course the GP is pretty heavy fleet). Personally I do not see Dodge as a performance division but as the low price division with some performance variants.
At Dodge the Charger is the big player in cars and everything else is low volume. The Caliber could be branded a Pontiac and replace the very old Vibe. Let the Magnum die. So as far as cars I see Dodge brand gone. With the new Zeta platform the RWD Charger/300 will go away in time.
Now the Dodge trucks. The big volume here is the Ram pickups. I would put it under Jeep and sell them with a combined brand Jeep/Hummer. They are in need for a refresh and cannot compete well with the new GM and Tundra Pickups. Mostly selling on their brand name(which is hugely important). If they continue to sell well at the Jeep/Hummer dealers refresh them using the GM platform. Also the midsize PU could become a Jeep/Hummer. Again the Caravan could become a Chevy.
Combine the relavent Jeep vehicles (I am not really familiar with them) with Hummer. This would really screw up GM's dealership planning but since this is just underway with the Cadillac/Saab/Hummer chains it could be done.
CAVEAT: Chrysler has not been sitting on it's but. There must be a bunch of vehicles in the pipeline that could be used by GM.
In the end though the fixed cost at Chrysler will probably do in a buyout of Chrysler by GM. They had better get a pretty good deal.
Chevrolet: gets Caravan
Pontiac/Buick/GMC: gets Caliber, T&C, Sell Charger under G8 pricepoint until new zeta G8's are available.
Cadillac/Saab: no change(perhaps sell the 300 for awhile)
Jeep/Hummer: relavent jeeps, RAM PU, Mid size pickup
Vehicles that die immediately:Crossfire, PT, Sebring, Aspen, Pacifica, Magnum, Stratus, Viper(low volume halo vehicle, perhaps Pontiac could take it), Nitro.
One more thing. When these products are dropped where will sales go? Many will be domestic buyers and buy from Ford or GM so a lot of business will come to GM. this will help shore up some underutilized plants.
Also GM could keep producing some of the Chrysler products and sell to rental fleets until the tools are shot. Stop selling the GM products completely. Make the Chrysler products rental cars!!
Dropping brand names (or makes) will leave long term owners with no favorite make to buy. They will go to what they probably consider their second best choice, which could be some other manufacturer's make.
The only thing that I can see GM getting from owning Chrysler is that it will put off Toyota's becoming the #1 seller for a bit longer.
GM has no interest in getting it for being #1 over Toyota. What they would look at is if they can get profit from the volume it would give and also a bit defensive in that if it is sold it to someone else the volume goes elsewhere.
I really do not see the sense in buying it but I do not have the numbers and data to look at. Too many issues. But again if the asking price is right and the numbers work out then and all the other factors are OK then take it.
I agree with another poster that GM could then "ax" Pontiac...and the Chrysler brand could replace Buick. 300 replaces Lucerne and Park Ave. Nothing else in the Buick stable worth replacing.
Sebring gets replaced by a G6 under the Chrysler brand.
Challenger would fill the bill where the GTO failed. Charger gets the 4-door performance nod. Viper goes away because there's the venerable Corvette.
Minivans can be branded any way the General wants, but now they've got the leading minivan platform. Jeep no longer needs to develop a Suburban clone. Dodge becomes the "performance division". GMC goes away with RAM trucks/SUVs replacing them.
Chevy/Dodge/Jeep dealerships combine. Cadillac/Chrysler stores combine. Smaller dealerships either take on more or change brands, or they get bought out. That's it.
New company's brands would be Chevy, Dodge, Chrysler, Cadillac and Jeep. Any North American plant that makes either Pontiacs or Buicks either aline themselves with one of those brands, or they close.
Toyota would be hard pressed to overtake GM as the largest car company in the world if this were to transpire.
Rocky
Rocky
It's getting pretty crazy but until this country gets National Healthcare, Eliminates it's Free Trade Policy's, and fixes Currency Manipulation issues we will see more sad story's like the Chrysler Co. Durango/Aspen plant story's in the future. :sick:
Rocky
You will see a sell off of some interior divisions probably to Lear, Johnson Controls, Gentex who both have 90% of the market to themselves. Delphi, is more than likely going to concentrate on electronics, and engine parts and rid itself of area's where it has a hard time competing against company's that are focused in these segments.
Rocky
That is pretty funny pal.
Rocky
If they keep them that would throw GM into a Marketing nightmare worse than they already have. While there are a lot of GMC/Pontiac/Buick combined dealerships there are few (if any) Chrysler/Cadillac or any other GM/Chrysler combos. Combining dealerships would be a nightmare so I can see little possiblity of that happening.
So we are left with GM handpicking what they want to keep and throwing the rest away.
Ax Pontiac? Pontiac outsells dodge and Chrysler cars. Keeping Chrysler products/platforms messes up the global platforms and GM would not buy Chrysler for the midsize FWD and RWD car platforms. Those vehicles are pretty much dead once they have run their course. Any products coming out are in big trouble if they are not on one of GM's global platform unless the volume can keep up at least one plants worth of volume and in the next refresh will go to one of GM's platforms.
I think that the possiblity of Buick and Pontiac being "dropped" is pretty slim with a bigger chance of dropping Buick than Pontiac.
I am confused since I know little about Chrysler trannys. GM already has a 6 speed auto in their trucks. Are you talking about manual trans?
Chrysler car...360K (140k PT, 143K 300)
Chrysler Truck.250k (160K T&C, 78K Pacifica)
Dodge car......316k (92K Caliber, 114k Charger)
Dodge Truck....761k (364k PU, 211K Caravan)
Jeep...........460k (140k GC, 133k Liberty)
The above (besides the rest of the Jeep vehicles) make up the most of the non fleet volume. Most of the non listed vehicles are heavy fleet.
At Chrysler the 300 is the good seller with the PT a vehicle I do not understand as to why it is a Chrysler. I would kill off the Chrysler brand. There is nothing there that can really help GM (cars). The T&C could become a Buick. The Crossfire is a Mercedes and will go away. The Sebring is nothing special and could also go away. The Pacifica is old and could be dropped with the new Lamda vehicles a better choice. The PT sells well but needs to be redone soon. The 300 could be sold at Cadillac or Buick for awhile to keep the volume and profit.
In a Dodge vs. Pontiac comparison Pontiac sells more cars and even the old Grand Prix sells almost as many vehicles as the Charger (Of course the GP is pretty heavy fleet). Personally I do not see Dodge as a performance division but as the low price division with some performance variants.
At Dodge the Charger is the big player in cars and everything else is low volume. The Caliber could be branded a Pontiac and replace the very old Vibe. Let the Magnum die. So as far as cars I see Dodge brand gone. With the new Zeta platform the RWD Charger/300 will go away in time.
Now the Dodge trucks. The big volume here is the Ram pickups. I would put it under Jeep and sell them with a combined brand Jeep/Hummer. They are in need for a refresh and cannot compete well with the new GM and Tundra Pickups. Mostly selling on their brand name(which is hugely important). If they continue to sell well at the Jeep/Hummer dealers refresh them using the GM platform. Also the midsize PU could become a Jeep/Hummer. Again the Caravan could become a Chevy.
Combine the relavent Jeep vehicles (I am not really familiar with them) with Hummer. This would really screw up GM's dealership planning but since this is just underway with the Cadillac/Saab/Hummer chains it could be done.
CAVEAT: Chrysler has not been sitting on it's but. There must be a bunch of vehicles in the pipeline that could be used by GM.
In the end though the fixed cost at Chrysler will probably do in a buyout of Chrysler by GM. They had better get a pretty good deal.
Chevrolet: gets Caravan
Pontiac/Buick/GMC: gets Caliber, T&C, Sell Charger under G8 pricepoint until new zeta G8's are available.
Cadillac/Saab: no change(perhaps sell the 300 for awhile)
Jeep/Hummer: relavent jeeps, RAM PU, Mid size pickup
Vehicles that die immediately:Crossfire, PT, Sebring, Aspen, Pacifica, Magnum, Stratus, Viper(low volume halo vehicle, perhaps Pontiac could take it), Nitro.
One more thing. When these products are dropped where will sales go? Many will be domestic buyers and buy from Ford or GM so a lot of business will come to GM. this will help shore up some underutilized plants.
Also GM could keep producing some of the Chrysler products and sell to rental fleets until the tools are shot. Stop selling the GM products completely. Make the Chrysler products rental cars!!
for those around when Chrysler bought AMC what happened? From what I recall they kept the jeep vehicles and kept the Eagle brand for awhile but pretty much the same and then dropped most all the rest of AMC. Is this true? It does look like they adopted the Eagle platfrom for Chrysler.
http://eightiesclub.tripod.com/id362.htm
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3165/is_n4_v25/ai_7534999
If they declare US bankruptcy does that wipe Daimlers hands of everything? Can they just cut the pensions, health care, dealers, employees and run? Do they sell all the assets to the highest bidder? Can they divvy up the assets? Anybody really know the answer to this? I mean why does Daimler care? They may get some US backlash but I think most Americans would not care and those that are buying Mercedes vehicles now would care the least.
If they can claim bankruptcy GM could buy up the assets (a few plants, minivans, some jeep models, etc.) and not take all the cost on? The money brought in could be divied up to all the claimants?
GM would absorb Chrysler and you'd be left with Dodge and Jeep as GM sub-brands. The others(ie - mostly the minivans) would be easy enogh to meld into GM/Pontiac lines if they wanted.
It's not really much different than what they did with Saab. And it could be a good thing for GM. All of that R&D and the sub-divisions they own would almost pay for the bill right there.
I've seen that Lucerne in the video start up advert.
That car looks like the old Ford Toreass
Seriously, what engine does it have and is it a front wheel driver?
If that's the best local thing you guys have there,thank god you are getting the G8
What Delphi got was all the plants, the Engineering and marketing personnell that were already in separate facilities and the hourly workforce.
Now with Chrylser the same could happen but I doubt it could. Daimler could set up a Chrysler stock but I doubt many would buy and the stock would be worthless. Remember Chrysler is in VERY bad condition right now. Much worse than GM was 2 years ago in many ways. They have way too many dealers.
GMC is nothing more than a clone for Chevy trucks/SUVs. And, the dealerships are usually partnered with Pontiac and Buick. It can go away without anyone missing them.
Of the Pontiac platforms, the G6 would fill in nicely for the "axed" Sebring. They can call it anything they want, but I'd put it under the Chrysler brand. Chrysler doesn't sell as well as Pontiac, for certain, but GM has overcapacity for manufacturing and sales outlets. Getting rid of Pontiac and Buick takes care of both of those issues. There are fewer Cadillac dealerships than there are Chrysler dealerships. So, that would immediately match the amount of dealerships to the "lesser" volume of Chrysler cars. The 300 has been a hit. Plus, GM gets the vaunted "hemi" marketing tool. As mentioned, a G6 becomes the Chrysler midrange model. PT Cruiser is long in the tooth. Don't really know what Chrysler has/had planned as the follow-on model, but does it matter? Chevy has the HHR to fill that slot.
Dodge becomes the performance brand with the Charger and upcoming Challenger. Chevy counters with the Camaro and Corvette. Rams compete with Tahoes and Silverados, replacing the GMC brand (and having more differentiation than GMC had with Chevy trucks/SUVs). Forget about rebadging Holdens to get performance cars like the GTO and the G8 (if that's what they're calling them). Bringing an Aussie car here to the states is throwing good money after bad.
So, how does all of this look?
Well, you walk into your local Caddy/Chrysler dealership and have a choice of luxo barges (Escalade and its variants), Northstar (STS, CTS) or performance luxo hemi 300 (which will far outsell the Caddy V series). G6 is a Chrysler (lets call it the NEWPORT...). It comes in coupe, 4 door and convertible configs. Then, you get some immediate luxo minivans that are market leading.
I agree...Jeep is Jeep. GM can use the 4WD talents of that brand throughout it's truck lineup.
Walk into your local Chevy/Dodge store and have a choice of Aveos, Cobalts (on the low-end side), an HHR, Imala, Malibu, Charger, Challenger, Chevy trucks?SUVs or Ram trucks/SUVs. Then, you have the Dodge minivans (which Chevy never had a competitive product). Dodge's offerings in the minivan market automatically thrusts GM into the market leadership in that segment.
Bob Lutz needs to have a sit down with me.
OTOH, I am not against buying Chrysler for the Jeep brands and the minivans OR to prevent the Chinese from getting insta-marketshare. Hummer IMO is reaching too far down-market and Jeep, too far up (ie-failed Commander). And let's face it: GM never has been successful with minivans.
Really though, if the Chinese were to buy Chrysler, I do agree that the domestics would suffer. However, with Ford hanging on by a thread, I'm not sure GM won't be able to survive. But any acquisition IMO should take whats good at Chrysler to supplement GM's lineup, not to replace it.
On another note...
Did someone say GM is aligning Caddy-Hummer-Saab dealers?
1. Fewer brands mean fewer and stronger dealerships. An average Toyota dealer sold 1600 cars in '06, highest in the industry. I think Honda dealers are next, but way behind at 1200. Some big 3 dealers sold a couple hundred cars.
2. Fewer brands mean less expenses and advertising expenses.
3. Fewer brands mean stronger brands. Ever notice how Chevy always get the worst of GM products? Aura > G6 > Malibu, etc. Doesn't make sense at all, Chevy is GM's most popular and strongest brand, and yet gets handicapped by having the worst of GM's offerings! If there's no Pontiac and Saturn, Aura would be a Chevy, giving GM a much better chance at Camry and Accord.
2. True but a better product would yield more profit for more advertising, etc.
3. I prefer to think of them as the most economical products. In the Aura/G6/Malibu example, I have two problems:
1-the 08 Malibu is very much improved and on par with the Aura. But still, I think it's okay to have the Aura slightly above the Malibu.
2-the G6 never should have been made. So many of GM's problems are related to pure brand confusion. If Pontiac is the excitement brand, why on earth is there a midsize FWD sedan?
Otherwise the cost of making and marketing the cars could eat into the the profit.
Nissan had a similar problem. They have the Vera and the Sentra both going for the entry level. When the new vera unexpected became the hot seller they were stuck with sentras that didn't move as well as not enough versa to meet demand. (i.e. Production split between two models).
And why is GM and FORD co-developing a new six-speed automatic?
Today, the GM light-duty pick up series only has three automatic transmissions available for it: the new versions of the 4LE60 and 4LE80, and an Allison 1000 series six-speed. But the Allison is only available behind the DuraMax diesel. And although the Allison contains some components from a Hydramatic design, the transmission itself is not a Hydramatic. It is NOT fully electronic and it is NOT adaptive.
According to GM fleet pre-release literature, a new six-speed automatic will not be available across the GM full light-duty pick up line until MY 2009.
In contrast, Chrysler's excellent 545RFE is already a six-speed, however it only uses five forward speeds in a normal upshift sequence. It is not only fully electronic (no bands) but is fully adaptive. Its been in use for six years and has about the best reliability of any automatic at the moment.
Slated for introduction in 2007, Dodge will make available a very hearty 68RFE based on the 545RFE design for use behind the new Cummins diesel. In 2008 the entire Dodge truck line will have a six-speed automatic, including half-tons. Not only will these transmissions be fully electronic and fully adaptive, but they will utilize variable line pressure. This will reduce parasitic losses by approximately 80% as well as reduced stress on key components. (For those GM lovers not in denial, if the Hyramatic line had variable line pressure, maybe we'd see far less direct clutch, low-reverse and 2nd band breakage. And that's why Hydramatics in the bigger engined GM trucks require heavy shift management.)
Dusty
Yea, and the one they should cut, IMO of course, is the G6.
The G6 sold 157K units last year so it wasn;t a exactly sales dud. They should keep the G6 because it is a good seller. I shopuld also note 45% or 55%(forget which) of now G6 owners came from outside GM(from other brands.)
What do you want a RWD G6?
Yeah but Buick has the Enclave coming out.
"Dodge becomes the performance brand with the Charger and upcoming Challenger. Chevy counters with the Camaro and Corvette. Rams compete with Tahoes and Silverados, replacing the GMC brand (and having more differentiation than GMC had with Chevy trucks/SUVs). Forget about rebadging Holdens to get performance cars like the GTO and the G8 (if that's what they're calling them). Bringing an Aussie car here to the states is throwing good money after bad."
I don;t think GM is going to say well we got the Challenger and the Charger so forget about importing the G8 here state side. I mean GM already has the G8 planned to come here stateside so I don;t think they are going to pull the plug now on the G8 coming state side because I would think the G8 is already in GM's future pipe line of products.
Yeah but GM still has too many brands as it is. I mean Nissan has 2 brands, Toyota has 3 brands and Honda has 2 brands. Why does GM need 5 brands currently? Also your saying what happened to gold old American ingenuity? Well this isn't the 60's anymore where you just had the Domestic Big 3 brands. Now you have 34 nameplates selling cars in the US.
See, if the Chinese weren't a threat to buy GM Gm wouldn;t even be interested in Chrysler the least bit in my opinion.Its more of a defensive move more than anything of GM trying to buy Chrysler. In my opinion GM gains nothing but old Mercedes platforms in buying Chrysler which wouldn't even be useful in my opinion. If GM buys Chrysler they'll have 8 brands. Now thats just too many brands!!! Sure GM's gonna get rid some of Chrysler Corps brands but they(GM) they will have to deal with having 8 brands for a certain amount of time. GM just can't buy Chrysler and shut down whatever or keep what they want of Chrysler's brands in one day. I say if GM buys Chrysler keep some of Chrysler Corps guys(i.e. Lasorda) so they can run Chrysler until GM gets what they want of Chrysler (brands or select cars) snd than La Sorda can retire or whatever.
I forgot about that well Gm would gain the min-vans but to get Jeep's SUV's why GM already has GMC for that and GM has SUV's in their Chevy line-up too.
Well they don't NEED them but they do HAVE them. And, with GMC-Buick-Pontiac dealers being aligned, those middle brands really dont need to be full lineups. BTW, I counted 8 brands(caddy, saab, hummer, buick, pontiac, gmc, saturn, chevy). Isn't it possible to have very distinct brand images?
Ooh, and to get back on topic...I think GM's new offensive will work, if they stay the course, not get sidetracked with a new acquisition. They need to decide if they are going for maximum profits or for worldwide sales leadership.
Actually GM need 3 nameplates: Chevy, Buick and Cadillac. Pontiac and Buick should merge to become the premier mid-range/size marquee to compete with Toyota Camry/Avalon, etc.
At least that will be a strategy more in line with today's markets. Cadillac must become a more world-class player, not focused on only US, in order to keep premier status.
But who am I?? Just another lost customer...
Regards,
OW
No one would miss them? GMC sells huge numbers of vehicles and is the most profitable division at GM.
For instance Saturn Vs. Chevy. What does Saturn have that Chevy should not have? They compete against each other instead of the competition. Either drop Chevy or Saturn.
Buick and Caddy do the same. Cadillac is supposed to be top end luxury. Which makes it difficult to position Buick in the mid-end luxury market. If Cadillac is too costly then fewer people can afford to buy them which can lead to fewer sells. If Buick is too cheap it steps on Chevy’s toes and if it is too expensive it bumps into Cadillac’s lower market. It would be simpler to market if Cadillac was just luxury both top and mid end rather than just top end. Rather like Lexus.
Pontiac I think could be kept, but they need a strong focus on performance. If it isn’t sporty, it isn’t Pontiac. The trouble is GM hasn’t been vigilant enough to keep non-sporty Pontiacs out of the line up.
Saab and Hummer are niche players. Although I really don’t see what Saab brings to the party. Hummer at least brings the off road vechiles.
GMC is supposed to be trucks\suv. But Chevy has trucks and even Cadillac has SUV’s. What makes a GMC pick up different from a Chevy one?
Honestly, as much as I like what unions stand for, if they allow themselves get to the point where they cripple the company itself(and thereby risk killing off their own jobs) - maybe they need to be avoided. Afterall, the UAW is more of a PAC now than a bunch of employees. The management doesn't care if all of the jobs at Chrylser evaporate - they get their fat salaries and there's more than one company they represent afterall.
Yes, but it will take lots of time and GM is not forcing/paying for it to happen.
?????? No way would I put G6 ahead of the new malibu.
Perhaps you are talking price? Then yes Pontiac is more than Chevy.
so the question should be should the midsize RWD cars of GM's future be Zeta (Holden designed platform but american designed cars) or the Chrysler platform. If they use the Chrysler platform they will have to retool Holden which already exports to China and elsewhere.
No I think between the two GM would keep the Zeta.