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General Motors discussions

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Comments

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Aren't all these things you mentioned part of GM's plans for the next five years? IOW, they are already headed exactly where you wish they were?

    I have heard plans for a RWD DTS around 2010/2011 (with potential optional AWD), I have heard the Lucerne will adopt the same platform as the new DTS, they are already generally agreed to have reached exactly the point lemko mentions with the Silverado, and to some extent they also plan to make Pontiac into the performance division he mentions.

    About the only thing lemko asks for that I HAVEN'T seen mentioned is a Cobalt hybrid.

    Now that you big-car folks have had your say (remember, my theory is there are big-car people and small-car people, and "never the twain shall meet" :-)), let's not forget us small-car people please. We don't want large cars, or even small cars that drive like large cars (the current Cobalt being a good example of that), so please let's add that we need a full update on the Aveo from GM-DAT and the Cobalt from GM-NA, we'd like a couple of small-car choices that have class-leading fuel economy, and we'd like the small and midsize pick-up market not to be forgotten in the rush to have the best full-size pick-up in the world. :-)

    And for me personally, I'd also like them NOT to even CONSIDER buying up any more car companies, and perhaps to think seriously about cutting Saab loose somehow, any way that could be accomplished. And consider very seriously where the Hummer line is headed. It can't be a 1-model line-up of only the H3 in 2010. Will there be a resurgence of H2 sales? If gas prices continue the big upsy-downsy, I think there probably won't, although it makes a good niche vehicle. Is it sustainable at the niche sales level?

    One thing that strikes me every time I pick up a car magazine, is how performance-heavy GM is. They do their best to stuff a 20-mpg V-8 into everything they can, at least as an optional trim. They should be sure to continue focusing on the volume trims of lesser-engined, "ordinary people" cars as well as the tire-burners, since those are where a good portion of the profits lie.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    It is all well and good to move Buick up market, but the basic facts of life are this: in the late 90's, after the Park Avenue moved to the G-body (or the Aurora body), the price tag was about $30,000 and sales were 60,000 in 1999. By 2002, the price tag had increased to a point where a nicely equipped base Park Avenue was probably over $35,000 and sales slipped to 30,000 and continued downward.

    The point here is this: if you try to sell Buicks at Cadillac prices, you will cut sales in half at best, and maybe to a third of what they are now. I think importing is a bad way to go, the cars should be built here, unless of course you expect to only sell a few thousand annually.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Well nippon, have you checked out that new Saturn Astra ? I hear more like it are coming. Just how small do you like your cars ? Cobalt size ? Aura/08' Malibu size ????

    Rocky
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The FWD big sedans should be phased out when the global RWD platform is put into production for North America, probably around 2010. I would say let a large RWD Buick sedan, perhaps like Holdens Caprice, take over both the Lucerne and DTS market. Cadillac should drop the low end DTS (deVille) and bring a higher end sigma platform RWD sedan out. This larger than the STS model would be much nicer than the STS, and would compare to the Lexus LS, Mercedes_S_Class, etc.

    Pontiac would have a smaller RWD sedan, the G8 is imported, but perhaps the importing could end when the global RWD platform is in production in NA.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    sls002, I never suggested importing them but rather copy the positive attributes which pretty much means the whole car and then building it here. I hope that clears any confusion you had about my post. I can understand why after re-reading my post you might feel that. ;)

    Now secondly The cars you mention demanding those price tags were nice BUT NOT that nice. Members of my family owned 2002' Aurora, and 2001 Aurora, and if they didn't get a GM discount on them I doubt either would of bought them. I liked the Aurora and Park Avenue, but I can see WHY both cars failed in the market with a high MSRP. Why, because both cars had interior flaws. As good and reliable as the baby Northstar was it didn't have enough muscle to power a car the size of the Aurora. The 3.5 V6 Shortstar was a lot cheaper and almost as quick. The 4.0 Northstar could of benefited from at least a 25 horsepower boost. Both cars were FWD, which isn't a bad thing neccessarily but the Lexus ES, and like cars were better all around cars. Your example provides you with a good position to argue against me with but I feel that if the interior refinement, power w/ a 3.6 "high feature" V6 from the CTS, and gadgetology, were employed in the LaCrosse, it could stand on it's two-feet to take on the Lexus ES. It's going to take that a long with a good marketing campaign that people like Tiger Woods, are important figures to move the Buick, brand upscale. Buick needs to be Lexus, but with Lincoln prices and if it can become that GM, will have a gem of a brand that can sell on merit instead of incentives. :)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I agree with MOST but not all of your post. Where you and I disagree is the DTS, should be the big body car and flag ship RWD sedan. The STS, is the right size. I guess we could change the DTS's name and make it something else ? Personally I'd like to see the DTS, become a "Big Body" ULS to compete with Mercedes's S-Class Sedan. ;)

    I also would prefer the Royaum becoming the RWD Lucerne. The Holden Statesman, bumpy posted a link to would sure make a damn fine Bonneville or G10 ;)

    Rocky

    P.S. I do see GM, building Holden/Chinese body's here in the U.S. in the near future. ;)
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The Park Avenue's interior was much nicer than either the 95 Aurora or the 95 Riviera. However, I don't care how nice the interior is, with a high price tag sales will be limited. As long as the car is really worth what its price tag is, sales will probably be reasonable. But the basic facts of life are that a good $30,000 vehicle will out sell a good $40,000 vehicle.

    I owned a 98 Aurora, so I know what the car was. Performance was not that bad. The Aurora was on a par with the supercharged 3800 for performance.

    My point is that you will have to move Cadillac up market if you are moving Buick up market. Sales of both makes will decrease, probably by 50%. This is not significant in terms of GM's total sales. The Lexus ES is really a Camry so I do not consider that a suitable Buick target. It would make more sense to target the Toyota Avalon. The ES is there to make Lexus a profitable make for Lexus dealers, who could not pay their bills on LS sales alone.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I thought that was what I said about making the DTS into a sigma sedan that was larger than the STS.

    Pontiac must stay out of the Buick end.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I think the new Saturn should fill the $30K segment, and Buick cover the $40-50K segment with the Lacrosse being like the Lexus ES being a prfitable make. Cadillac, can then move further up market and will still have the CTS, be like the ES getting volume sales. The CTS and Lacrosee could be two different animals as I'd have the Lacrosee, start out high $20K sales and be FWD and have the CTS start out at $33-34K and be RWD to get those sales. Saturn will cover the low-mid $20K sales and will top out in the low-high $30's and will focus on luxury. Pontiac, can also fit that bill but be more focused on performance. Pontiac, could be a inexpensive BMW brand. A driver's car as you may that is a lot like our new G8 ;) Chevy, will cover everything else on the low end with the big RWD Impala toping out in the low $30's or so.

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Oops after re reading your post my mistake. ;)

    Rocky
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I can see the LaCrosse being a more luxurious Saturn Aura, it would have to be very similar to the Lexus_ES/Toyota_Avalon to sell. The CTS is a sports sedan, and while the price tag is in the Buick range, it is a different type of car, and in a different market. The Lucerne needs to be more expensive than the LaCrosse, and bigger and nicer. So, this puts it into what is now the DeVille market. The CTS is really after the BMW 3-series market. Pontiac will have to go for a lower end sports sedan market, not the BMW sports sedan market. BMW's run $30 to $40,000 at the lower end.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The Pontiac G8 will be a sedan with a big V8, making it a low priced sedan, with a big engine something like the BMW 5-series V8 (think M5), but without the refinements that make the higher end performance sedans worth the mountains of money that is required to buy one.

    Pontiac tried to sell the Bonneville as a low priced version of the big BMW sedans. This was a silly advertisement, but make an interesting point. Both the G-body Bonneville and LeSabre, were very nice cars for the money.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    That's a bit crowded in there. I'd go more like this:

    Impala- short wheelbase Zeta (Holden VE).
    3.9 V6 (240hp), 5.3 V8 (315 hp).
    $22k-28k

    G8- short wheelbase Zeta (VE), more aggressive suspension and better interior.
    3.6 V6 (260hp), 6.0 V8 (360hp).
    $26-32k

    Lucerne- long wheelbase Zeta (WM), quiet tuning, highway suspension, luxury interior.
    3.6 V6 (300hp), 6.2 V8 (380hp).
    $28k-38k

    DTS- long wheelbase Zeta (WM), sport suspension, high luxury interior.
    5.0 Ultra V8 (425 hp)
    $48k
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Well I don't need to reply to either one of sls's post because you pretty much summed it up for me. :)

    Thanks bumpy, for making my life easy. I do think the Lucerne, could go up in price more than you suggest. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    The Impala SS with the 6.2 is priced how much bumpy ?

    Rocky
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    People most likely will compare the product quality to what they have seen manufactured by China owned firms in the past. They make an automatic .22 rifle much like the Browning, as in copied, which sells for less money. The overall quality, while not bad, is not 100% that of the Browning. So perhaps it will first be that of image. How about cheap lamps which now last a year compared to those which were American made a couple decades ago and still working? For the price, as in dirt cheap, the electrical stuff may still be a bargain, if you assume some risk. Yes, in reality, I am positive something can be made to spec over in China to achieve the same 100% quality. As mentioned, people think of the junk stuff or the 90% quality items though and may continue to do so going forward. They may not believe the parts are the same. Then there is the trust factor. Tainted dog and cat food is not going to help in the faith department. Then there is the fact that China is a communist county. The auto industry may be that last straw for at the very least a few million people that will shy away from a communist country product, while still buying some at the big box store in the way of small appliances and consumables.

    If they do make parts over there to ship here, GM would also have to be ever so careful that the first parts worked, and follow through each and every day to assure people that the parts remain highest quality. If the first batch, or first years products suck, it would be something heard about around the world. A certain hard drive company had a ton of bad hard drives come out of plant in China, and in the back of my mind, I am would be checking the box for country of origin, though in reality, it will now be the closest watched factory.

    Hopefully the economy stays good or improves for all the people in the world. As China economy grows, hopefully there will be a little more freedom for their people and eventually the end of communism and forced labor camps. We can only hope and pray for change over the years without violence.
    Loren
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    The 6.2L Impala SS doesn't exist, because it's called the Pontiac G8. GM needs one or the other but not both, and Chevy will get along just fine without a 350+ hp sedan but Pontiac won't. Chevy gets the Camaro instead.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    I do think the Lucerne, could go up in price more than you suggest.

    Not yet. If an RWD Lucerne can establish itself as a car worthy of a $38k price tag, then the generation after that can nudge up just over $40k.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    bumpy,

    The 3.6, 5.3, 6.2 are scheduled for the RWD Chevy Impala pal. The Impala, will according to a leak gathered by Motor Trend, from GM will have this engine line-up pal. ;)

    Go pick-up the March issue of Motor Trend. I know it's a rumor now but Motor Trend, is the most accurate magazine in the world for getting things right. I've been a off and on subscriber and reader of them since I was a child. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    You and I will have to just disagree because Buick, needs to fill in where Cadillac was at in the $40-$50K price range with the Lucerne and Velite. ;) The Enclave will be a mid-upper $40K CUV because a loaded out Acadia hit's $44K right now. A Denali version is scheduled and I bet that hit's the high $40K range which is where it needs to be IMHO. I know you and 62vettefp, agree but you both are looking at from a volume stand point instead of a brand stradegy like I'm doing. Buick, can afford to do less volume with Saturn and Pontiac offering better product to pick up those Buick Sales. You also need to look at Chevy, with the RWD Impala, which will get some former Buick Sales. The Lacrosse will pick up current FWD Lucerne/DTS sales. Trust me Wagoner, should give me a seat at his desk. I can right the ship better than Putz. :P

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I'm going to introduce the GREATEST Truck of all-time over their. Get some popcorn, a brewski, and smoke if you got em' :blush:

    Rocky
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    The 3.6, 5.3, 6.2 are scheduled for the RWD Chevy Impala pal.

    If that's true, then the G8's death warrant has already been signed. An Impala with those engine choices will suck up every potential G8 sale the day it hits the showroom floor. Maybe GM will learn to quit cutting its own throat one of these days.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    It is almost here and you saw it here first. :shades:

    http://www.gmc.com/sierra900/denali/index.jsp

    "No Autograph's Please" :P

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Negative. The G8 is a different kind of animal as it will focus more on handling like a BMW.

    The G8 engine looks like this.
    3.6, 6.0 GT (for a short time) then 6.2,
    7.0 LS-7 (limited/GXP)

    The RWD Impala will have a 6.2 for the SS, pal but it's going to be BIG. It will have a manual available like the G8 but it will be a big RWD Sedan probably about the Size of the current Lucerne/DTS. The Pontiac G8 is the size of the current Grand Prix, and is sporty and performance focused. The Impala will be a RWD straightline barge that will get cop car sales back. ;)

    Rocky
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    I'm going to introduce the GREATEST Truck of all-time over their.

    A 1966 GMC K1500 with saddle tanks and a 478 V6 swap?
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    LOL......Not Hardly....Not a bad truck to turn into a Hot-Rod though :P

    Rocky
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    The RWD Impala will have a 6.2 for the SS, pal but it's going to be BIG. It will have a manual available like the G8 but it will be a big RWD Sedan probably about the Size of the current Lucerne/DTS. The Pontiac G8 is the size of the current Grand Prix, and is sporty and performance focused.

    What? :confuse:

    2007 Lucerne: Length 203.2", Width 73.8", Height 58.0" Wheelbase 115.6"
    2007 Grand Prix: Length 198.3", Width 71.6", Height 55.9" Wheelbase 110.5"
    2007 Commodore: Length 192.7", Width 74.7", Height 58.1" Wheelbase 114.7"
    2007 Statesman: Length 203.15", Width 74.8", Height 58.3" Wheelbase 118.5"
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Not hardly indeed. Leave the hot-rodding to the Chevies. GMCs are work trucks (and putting an undersized V8 in one is a pile of work).
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    The Commodore is slightly smaller than I thought. I didn't have the exact dimensions but rather was "eyeing" it. I was a little off but the Commodore does look bigger than the current Grand Prix. So if the Impala is as big as the Lucerne (rumor) it will 10.5 inches longer than the G8, proving my point of two different beasts. ;)

    I knew their was a size difference as the G8 is a midsize sedan and The Lucerne is a Large Car Sedan. The 2009' Impala is going to be a lot bigger than the current Impala. The 08' Malibu will be about the size of the current Impala. This is of course great stradegy by GM. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    GMC's aren't just work trucks because their current success has been getting import truck buyers to buy GM. Import buyers like GMC, products because they perceive them as better trucks than Chevy's thus GMC's cost a few bucks more than Chevy's. Their use to be a myth that GMC trucks had thicker steal and received better parts than Chevy's. The old sayin' was Chevy got GMC's parts that wouldn't pass GMC's tolerances. ;) This myth is why General Motor's like cumsumers to think GMC's are better trucks than Chevy's thus is why import truck buyers are lured to GMC, because they think they are getting the best truck. They might as well believe it because the 2007' GMC Sierra Denali is indeed the best truck on the market. :P

    Rocky :shades:
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    The 08' Malibu will be about the size of the current Impala.

    Doesn't look like it.

    2007 Impala: Length 200.4", Width 72.9" Height 58.7" Wheelbase 110.5"
    2008 Malibu: Length 191.8", Width 70.3" Height 57.1" Wheelbase 112.3"
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    GMC's aren't just work trucks because their current success has been getting import truck buyers to buy GM.

    Got a link for that?

    GMCs were built with better parts in the old days before they became badge-job Chevies circa 1970.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    GM inside news claims that the latest rumor is that the DTS will be a zeta platform. That means to me that the price tag will remain low, pushing Buick down market.

    Holden's size ranges are:
    commodore 4894mm by 1899mm by 1476 wheelbase 2915mm
    caprice 5160 by 1899 by 1480 wheelbase 3009

    This translates to: 192.7 by 74.8 by 58.1 wb 114.8
    and 203.1 by 74.8 by 58.3 wb 118.5
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    I can see several areas where GM would gain from this.

    - Ram. They gave Chevy and GMC - more trucks, the better.(and they probably could USE the Cummins diesel in the Ram technology-wise)

    - The Viper will always be The Viper, reguardless of who owns the brand. The Viper is also huge. Imagine a Corvette with a Viper engine in it as a top-end model.

    - All of Chrysler's subsitiaries and shares in other makers/etc. would go with it as well. Mopar, SRT, HEMI, and International are tempting.

    - Jeep. This is the big, BIG draw. Jeep can be its own thing forever - and most peolpe still view it as almost seperate from Chrysler. Quite profitible as well.

    - Engines. GM is in sore need of new engines and R&D costs a fortune. 5 billion or so they are talking about is cheap to get all of that R&D. This also would give GM a lock on most car racing, or close to it. GM can probably save a billion in engine designing alone over the years from this.

    - Not let anyone else get it. The truth is, GM needs ne blood to grow out of this phase it's in(as opposed to shrinking and becoming a niche producer), and what - Toyota or some foriegn company is going to absorb it? Ford, which looks to be on its last legs? And to be honest, GM has a long tradition of buying out other manufacturers who are worthwhile and in trouble, hence the origin of the name.

    I'll tell you - there's not a single person in Nascar who didn't think Mercedes buying out Dodge/Mopar wasn't a bad idea - and not one who wouldn't consider it to be a better thing to bring it back home to U.S. soil.

    And Chrysler cars might finally have a decnet transmissions. ;)
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    GM inside news indicates (this is a rumor) that the 2009 Impala would be a zeta platform. There are no suggestions as to size. I would expect it to be smaller than the DTS. So, a G8 size makes sense, but built in North America.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The next Malibu is supposed to be an epsilon 2 - probably about the size of the Aura or slightly bigger. The next LaCrosse will probably be on this platform too, if it remains FWD.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    plekto,

    I really respect your post. GM, also wouldn't have to worry about Toyota, being the #1 automaker for a very long time. :D

    $5 Billion would be cheap and a good buy !!!!!

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I read somewhere Lucerne size. :confuse:

    Who knows for sure ?

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I'll look for it bumpy

    Rocky
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Thanks :)

    I forgot one more thing. GM already supplies a lot of hardware to our war efforts - but those Hummers - those are like money in the bank, because the contracts would go with them. I don't want to be too morbid here, but we go through a lot of Hummers per year recently.

    It's also probably why Mercedes approached GM first, since there's a definite possible conflict of interest with our military vehicles being supplied by a foriegn company in Asia.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060911/FREE/60911001/1041/T- OC01ARCHIVE

    GMC, which sold 210,000 Sierra models last year – in the ballpark of Toyota’s goal for the Tundra, may be GM’s best secret weapon against the Tundra. The brand has grown in sales 11 of the past 13 years and does particularly well in import-dominated areas, said Steve Rosenblum, GMC marketing director. In fact, Southern California – home of Toyota – is its strongest market,

    “We line up very well demographically with Toyota because we skew toward the higher educated, higher income households,” he said. GMC launches the fancier Denali version of the Sierra in February, more ammunition against Tundra.


    http://www.autoobserver.com/2007/02/truck_wars_toyo_1.html

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Plekto,

    I thought I heard a while back Jeep, had a new Military vehicle in the works ? This would be awesome for GM, to sell this vehicle to our military and maybe to us consumers. It was suppose to be supposably better than the Hummer. :confuse:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    http://blogs.automotive.com/6202461/crossovers/gm-and-chrysler-in-talks-to-devel- - op-suv-together/index.html

    WOW, this looks like it could really happen for real a new SUV !!!!

    Rocky
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    GM inside news claims that the latest rumor is that the DTS will be a zeta platform. That means to me that the price tag will remain low, pushing Buick down market

    Does it really have to be that way? My (old school) thinking would be to market a DTS as (maybe) an entry level Cadillac. You can take Caddy upscale, make it the car that your average Joe lusted over (luxury-wise) just like they did 50 years ago. As for the DTS, market it towards the blue collar Joe who can't afford it, but saves up for it and buys a new one for his/ her retirement. I know times have changed and it sounds a little corny, but for years now Lincoln (Town Car) and Caddy (Deville) have been scooped up by the older set (as well as limo/taxi co.'s). I just wonder if they build on that, and raise the bar for the other cars in their lineup, even to the extent of offering a separate commercial platform (RWD, of course) for the limos and hearses. Maybe my thinking is off kilter :confuse: , but I can't see one car (DTS) sabotaging an entire lineup (BUICK), especially if all Buicks were AWD and the DTS was front or rear wheel drive. Am I making any sense?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17186447/

    Many sources are running with it now.

    Of course, it could just be like the hype around the Nissan deal.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Yeah, it could be just hype.....I will be following it closely. ;)

    Rocky
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Looking at it, it's an incredibly smart move for GM in another way.

    Nothing and I mean NOTHING that Chrysler makes under its own badge is worth keeping. Toss it all entirely and streamline.

    That leaves Dodge, Hummer, and Jeep as seperate entitties - and GM merely has to fold them into itself like it did with Saab - hardly any change at all to begin with.

    Chrysler is gone - but you want a Jeep? - it's made in the same plants and with the same labor. Dodge is maybe minus the Stratus, but that's no big loss. Hummer - they only sell the H1(bring it back) and ditch the miserable H3(H2 is hard to decide on.

    In other words, keep the good, toss the chaff. In essence, GM tossed Olds and a few others and gained Jeep and Dodge - not a bad trade.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Does anyone seriously think that GM is in ANY danger of "becoming a niche producer"? I mean, come ON! Ford is on its last legs, GM is going to own this market (among the domestic carmakers) in five years if it JUST STAYS THE COURSE.

    Which this purchase wouldn't be, in fact it would scuttle the current recovery plan permanently.

    And Chrysler has the very highly successful Grand Caravan/T&C minivans, just updated for a new generation. If Viper and Jeep are their own brands regardless of their owner, so are the minivans. I wouldn't toss those if I were the new owner.

    This whole thing is ABSURD. The only argument I really understand is Rocky's relating to keeping Chrysler from falling into Chinese hands. So hey, sell Chrysler to VW Group or something. Those two have a new cooperative arrangement set to start this year already - building Town & Countrys as VW vans.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

This discussion has been closed.