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I have heard plans for a RWD DTS around 2010/2011 (with potential optional AWD), I have heard the Lucerne will adopt the same platform as the new DTS, they are already generally agreed to have reached exactly the point lemko mentions with the Silverado, and to some extent they also plan to make Pontiac into the performance division he mentions.
About the only thing lemko asks for that I HAVEN'T seen mentioned is a Cobalt hybrid.
Now that you big-car folks have had your say (remember, my theory is there are big-car people and small-car people, and "never the twain shall meet" :-)), let's not forget us small-car people please. We don't want large cars, or even small cars that drive like large cars (the current Cobalt being a good example of that), so please let's add that we need a full update on the Aveo from GM-DAT and the Cobalt from GM-NA, we'd like a couple of small-car choices that have class-leading fuel economy, and we'd like the small and midsize pick-up market not to be forgotten in the rush to have the best full-size pick-up in the world. :-)
And for me personally, I'd also like them NOT to even CONSIDER buying up any more car companies, and perhaps to think seriously about cutting Saab loose somehow, any way that could be accomplished. And consider very seriously where the Hummer line is headed. It can't be a 1-model line-up of only the H3 in 2010. Will there be a resurgence of H2 sales? If gas prices continue the big upsy-downsy, I think there probably won't, although it makes a good niche vehicle. Is it sustainable at the niche sales level?
One thing that strikes me every time I pick up a car magazine, is how performance-heavy GM is. They do their best to stuff a 20-mpg V-8 into everything they can, at least as an optional trim. They should be sure to continue focusing on the volume trims of lesser-engined, "ordinary people" cars as well as the tire-burners, since those are where a good portion of the profits lie.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The point here is this: if you try to sell Buicks at Cadillac prices, you will cut sales in half at best, and maybe to a third of what they are now. I think importing is a bad way to go, the cars should be built here, unless of course you expect to only sell a few thousand annually.
Rocky
Pontiac would have a smaller RWD sedan, the G8 is imported, but perhaps the importing could end when the global RWD platform is in production in NA.
Now secondly The cars you mention demanding those price tags were nice BUT NOT that nice. Members of my family owned 2002' Aurora, and 2001 Aurora, and if they didn't get a GM discount on them I doubt either would of bought them. I liked the Aurora and Park Avenue, but I can see WHY both cars failed in the market with a high MSRP. Why, because both cars had interior flaws. As good and reliable as the baby Northstar was it didn't have enough muscle to power a car the size of the Aurora. The 3.5 V6 Shortstar was a lot cheaper and almost as quick. The 4.0 Northstar could of benefited from at least a 25 horsepower boost. Both cars were FWD, which isn't a bad thing neccessarily but the Lexus ES, and like cars were better all around cars. Your example provides you with a good position to argue against me with but I feel that if the interior refinement, power w/ a 3.6 "high feature" V6 from the CTS, and gadgetology, were employed in the LaCrosse, it could stand on it's two-feet to take on the Lexus ES. It's going to take that a long with a good marketing campaign that people like Tiger Woods, are important figures to move the Buick, brand upscale. Buick needs to be Lexus, but with Lincoln prices and if it can become that GM, will have a gem of a brand that can sell on merit instead of incentives.
Rocky
I also would prefer the Royaum becoming the RWD Lucerne. The Holden Statesman, bumpy posted a link to would sure make a damn fine Bonneville or G10
Rocky
P.S. I do see GM, building Holden/Chinese body's here in the U.S. in the near future.
I owned a 98 Aurora, so I know what the car was. Performance was not that bad. The Aurora was on a par with the supercharged 3800 for performance.
My point is that you will have to move Cadillac up market if you are moving Buick up market. Sales of both makes will decrease, probably by 50%. This is not significant in terms of GM's total sales. The Lexus ES is really a Camry so I do not consider that a suitable Buick target. It would make more sense to target the Toyota Avalon. The ES is there to make Lexus a profitable make for Lexus dealers, who could not pay their bills on LS sales alone.
Pontiac must stay out of the Buick end.
Rocky
Rocky
Pontiac tried to sell the Bonneville as a low priced version of the big BMW sedans. This was a silly advertisement, but make an interesting point. Both the G-body Bonneville and LeSabre, were very nice cars for the money.
Impala- short wheelbase Zeta (Holden VE).
3.9 V6 (240hp), 5.3 V8 (315 hp).
$22k-28k
G8- short wheelbase Zeta (VE), more aggressive suspension and better interior.
3.6 V6 (260hp), 6.0 V8 (360hp).
$26-32k
Lucerne- long wheelbase Zeta (WM), quiet tuning, highway suspension, luxury interior.
3.6 V6 (300hp), 6.2 V8 (380hp).
$28k-38k
DTS- long wheelbase Zeta (WM), sport suspension, high luxury interior.
5.0 Ultra V8 (425 hp)
$48k
Thanks bumpy, for making my life easy. I do think the Lucerne, could go up in price more than you suggest.
Rocky
Rocky
If they do make parts over there to ship here, GM would also have to be ever so careful that the first parts worked, and follow through each and every day to assure people that the parts remain highest quality. If the first batch, or first years products suck, it would be something heard about around the world. A certain hard drive company had a ton of bad hard drives come out of plant in China, and in the back of my mind, I am would be checking the box for country of origin, though in reality, it will now be the closest watched factory.
Hopefully the economy stays good or improves for all the people in the world. As China economy grows, hopefully there will be a little more freedom for their people and eventually the end of communism and forced labor camps. We can only hope and pray for change over the years without violence.
Loren
Not yet. If an RWD Lucerne can establish itself as a car worthy of a $38k price tag, then the generation after that can nudge up just over $40k.
The 3.6, 5.3, 6.2 are scheduled for the RWD Chevy Impala pal. The Impala, will according to a leak gathered by Motor Trend, from GM will have this engine line-up pal.
Go pick-up the March issue of Motor Trend. I know it's a rumor now but Motor Trend, is the most accurate magazine in the world for getting things right. I've been a off and on subscriber and reader of them since I was a child.
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
If that's true, then the G8's death warrant has already been signed. An Impala with those engine choices will suck up every potential G8 sale the day it hits the showroom floor. Maybe GM will learn to quit cutting its own throat one of these days.
http://www.gmc.com/sierra900/denali/index.jsp
"No Autograph's Please" :P
Rocky
The G8 engine looks like this.
3.6, 6.0 GT (for a short time) then 6.2,
7.0 LS-7 (limited/GXP)
The RWD Impala will have a 6.2 for the SS, pal but it's going to be BIG. It will have a manual available like the G8 but it will be a big RWD Sedan probably about the Size of the current Lucerne/DTS. The Pontiac G8 is the size of the current Grand Prix, and is sporty and performance focused. The Impala will be a RWD straightline barge that will get cop car sales back.
Rocky
A 1966 GMC K1500 with saddle tanks and a 478 V6 swap?
Rocky
What? :confuse:
2007 Lucerne: Length 203.2", Width 73.8", Height 58.0" Wheelbase 115.6"
2007 Grand Prix: Length 198.3", Width 71.6", Height 55.9" Wheelbase 110.5"
2007 Commodore: Length 192.7", Width 74.7", Height 58.1" Wheelbase 114.7"
2007 Statesman: Length 203.15", Width 74.8", Height 58.3" Wheelbase 118.5"
I knew their was a size difference as the G8 is a midsize sedan and The Lucerne is a Large Car Sedan. The 2009' Impala is going to be a lot bigger than the current Impala. The 08' Malibu will be about the size of the current Impala. This is of course great stradegy by GM.
Rocky
Rocky :shades:
Doesn't look like it.
2007 Impala: Length 200.4", Width 72.9" Height 58.7" Wheelbase 110.5"
2008 Malibu: Length 191.8", Width 70.3" Height 57.1" Wheelbase 112.3"
Got a link for that?
GMCs were built with better parts in the old days before they became badge-job Chevies circa 1970.
Holden's size ranges are:
commodore 4894mm by 1899mm by 1476 wheelbase 2915mm
caprice 5160 by 1899 by 1480 wheelbase 3009
This translates to: 192.7 by 74.8 by 58.1 wb 114.8
and 203.1 by 74.8 by 58.3 wb 118.5
- Ram. They gave Chevy and GMC - more trucks, the better.(and they probably could USE the Cummins diesel in the Ram technology-wise)
- The Viper will always be The Viper, reguardless of who owns the brand. The Viper is also huge. Imagine a Corvette with a Viper engine in it as a top-end model.
- All of Chrysler's subsitiaries and shares in other makers/etc. would go with it as well. Mopar, SRT, HEMI, and International are tempting.
- Jeep. This is the big, BIG draw. Jeep can be its own thing forever - and most peolpe still view it as almost seperate from Chrysler. Quite profitible as well.
- Engines. GM is in sore need of new engines and R&D costs a fortune. 5 billion or so they are talking about is cheap to get all of that R&D. This also would give GM a lock on most car racing, or close to it. GM can probably save a billion in engine designing alone over the years from this.
- Not let anyone else get it. The truth is, GM needs ne blood to grow out of this phase it's in(as opposed to shrinking and becoming a niche producer), and what - Toyota or some foriegn company is going to absorb it? Ford, which looks to be on its last legs? And to be honest, GM has a long tradition of buying out other manufacturers who are worthwhile and in trouble, hence the origin of the name.
I'll tell you - there's not a single person in Nascar who didn't think Mercedes buying out Dodge/Mopar wasn't a bad idea - and not one who wouldn't consider it to be a better thing to bring it back home to U.S. soil.
And Chrysler cars might finally have a decnet transmissions.
I really respect your post. GM, also wouldn't have to worry about Toyota, being the #1 automaker for a very long time.
$5 Billion would be cheap and a good buy !!!!!
Rocky
Who knows for sure ?
Rocky
Rocky
I forgot one more thing. GM already supplies a lot of hardware to our war efforts - but those Hummers - those are like money in the bank, because the contracts would go with them. I don't want to be too morbid here, but we go through a lot of Hummers per year recently.
It's also probably why Mercedes approached GM first, since there's a definite possible conflict of interest with our military vehicles being supplied by a foriegn company in Asia.
GMC, which sold 210,000 Sierra models last year – in the ballpark of Toyota’s goal for the Tundra, may be GM’s best secret weapon against the Tundra. The brand has grown in sales 11 of the past 13 years and does particularly well in import-dominated areas, said Steve Rosenblum, GMC marketing director. In fact, Southern California – home of Toyota – is its strongest market,
“We line up very well demographically with Toyota because we skew toward the higher educated, higher income households,” he said. GMC launches the fancier Denali version of the Sierra in February, more ammunition against Tundra.
http://www.autoobserver.com/2007/02/truck_wars_toyo_1.html
Rocky
I thought I heard a while back Jeep, had a new Military vehicle in the works ? This would be awesome for GM, to sell this vehicle to our military and maybe to us consumers. It was suppose to be supposably better than the Hummer. :confuse:
Rocky
WOW, this looks like it could really happen for real a new SUV !!!!
Rocky
Rocky
Does it really have to be that way? My (old school) thinking would be to market a DTS as (maybe) an entry level Cadillac. You can take Caddy upscale, make it the car that your average Joe lusted over (luxury-wise) just like they did 50 years ago. As for the DTS, market it towards the blue collar Joe who can't afford it, but saves up for it and buys a new one for his/ her retirement. I know times have changed and it sounds a little corny, but for years now Lincoln (Town Car) and Caddy (Deville) have been scooped up by the older set (as well as limo/taxi co.'s). I just wonder if they build on that, and raise the bar for the other cars in their lineup, even to the extent of offering a separate commercial platform (RWD, of course) for the limos and hearses. Maybe my thinking is off kilter :confuse: , but I can't see one car (DTS) sabotaging an entire lineup (BUICK), especially if all Buicks were AWD and the DTS was front or rear wheel drive. Am I making any sense?
Many sources are running with it now.
Of course, it could just be like the hype around the Nissan deal.
Rocky
Nothing and I mean NOTHING that Chrysler makes under its own badge is worth keeping. Toss it all entirely and streamline.
That leaves Dodge, Hummer, and Jeep as seperate entitties - and GM merely has to fold them into itself like it did with Saab - hardly any change at all to begin with.
Chrysler is gone - but you want a Jeep? - it's made in the same plants and with the same labor. Dodge is maybe minus the Stratus, but that's no big loss. Hummer - they only sell the H1(bring it back) and ditch the miserable H3(H2 is hard to decide on.
In other words, keep the good, toss the chaff. In essence, GM tossed Olds and a few others and gained Jeep and Dodge - not a bad trade.
Which this purchase wouldn't be, in fact it would scuttle the current recovery plan permanently.
And Chrysler has the very highly successful Grand Caravan/T&C minivans, just updated for a new generation. If Viper and Jeep are their own brands regardless of their owner, so are the minivans. I wouldn't toss those if I were the new owner.
This whole thing is ABSURD. The only argument I really understand is Rocky's relating to keeping Chrysler from falling into Chinese hands. So hey, sell Chrysler to VW Group or something. Those two have a new cooperative arrangement set to start this year already - building Town & Countrys as VW vans.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)