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General Motors discussions

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Comments

  • montztermontzter Member Posts: 72
    "I have rode in a Pilot and driven a Trailblazer on several occassions and the Pilot is a buzzy, gutless, pile of doo doo."

    Sorry, but I don't think that would be your response if you had driven one..... ;)
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Maybe they should look at CEO salaries for guidance. Do we count the CEOs in Japan and Korea or just the ones here in US for the foreign companies?

    Well those topics aren't up for review. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    1: Stop building new plants here in the USA, and slowly reduce production with what they have here, making just enough to break even with the investment.

    They aren't going to lose out on the oppertunity to make money over feuding with a union.

    The market for Toyotas would then be filled with imports from Japan and other countries, thus resulting in the loss of the USA manufacturing jobs.

    That's when the 110th Congress puts such a heavy tariff on their imports that buying a Camy would cost as much as a Lexus LS 460 ;) Laugh, but if toyota tried to do this with a watchful media they would get painted very badly.

    2: Toyota would refuse the UAW deal, the UAW members would strike, and Toyota would replace them with new workers.

    I guess you've never seen a picket-line crossed in the South ???? Well in Kentucky, those folks take the body's into the mountains to be never found again. ;)
    Some picketer's the lumber if you know what I mean. Batter-up ! ;)

    I'm sure the Toyota gave a lot of thought to option 2 already, and located plants accordingly. They are in areas without UAW history, and people would be lining up to take the jobs paying the non-union wage.

    Well some of those people gave up good careers to go work in those Toyota factory's and if the Toyota greedy are willing to destroy the workers lives of those company's finacially then Toyota, has to reexamine its self. :mad:

    They can afford to pay and should do the right thing.

    Rocky
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    I think Pontiac should aim for aggressive handling, while Buick should focus on a firm yet quiet ride (what you get in a mid-level Benz). The Grange already has Magnaride, so there's no reason a Buickized Statesman couldn't have it. I should note for 62's benefit that what I consider a "rebadge" allows for modifications to the sheet metal and interior styling.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    So I need to go actually drive one ??? How it that going to change my feelings on it being very buzzy ????The SUV has what 265 hp right ??? Well my 5.3 V8 in my SUV did it all better IMHO

    The Pilot had a marginally better ride. ;) See I gave it a positive response.

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Okay,okay, they are all nice cars but unless you plan on importing both off these cars it' not going to work

    We will see. I still wished they would of made me a 7.0
    LS-7 HSV Commodore. :cry:

    Rocky
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Lessee... start with a 6-cylinder G8 for $25k, $1000-1500 for a manual conversion, $13,000 for the LS7, maybe $5000 for the bodywork. $45-50k should cover it.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    I was actually thinking that setting up a low-volume line at Oshawa or somewhere for WM-platform sales in North America would be the way to go; basically what they're doing with the Lucerne and DTS now but in RWD form.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Yeah you left out leather seats and other gadgets found top trims. i.e. like a premium stereo system, Delphi's MRC. I think I'd be in the $55-65K range. ;)

    Rocky
  • torque_rtorque_r Member Posts: 500
    I'd be really happy if GM brings 3 RWD models based on the commodore, but with distinctive styling for each: the Chevy Impala (with 3.5L , DOHC 3.6L and 6.0L V8) to compete with Chrysler 300 and start at $23K, then the Pontiac G8 (3.6L and 6.0L) and starts at $26K. Then the top-of-the-line would be the Buick Roadmaster to replace the Lucerne with a $29K V6 model, and a $36K V8 model.

    My question is: Instead of closing factories and laying off workers, why doesn't GM use one of its slow-producing factories to build these models instead of importing them from Australia?
  • v_dv_d Member Posts: 89
    the 1.8i 5-Door starts at 12699 Euros (manual tranny) and ends @ 15353 Euros (automatic tranny) cost for the auto tranny is ~ 900 euros...

    the 3-Door ends up at 14749 E with manual and 15815 with auto...

    and considering an Euro is $1.3... the 5-Door should end up @ $19,973.46 and the 3-Door @ $20,574.50... so Edmunds in not off I guess...
  • holdenguyholdenguy Member Posts: 145
    Lutz has always been in love with the Aussie "Statesman".
    Holden sell more of them to China that are bought here.
    Also, did you US guys know that Holdens are exported to New Zealand, South Afica and United Arab Emerites?
    Statesman won Car of the Year there in '06,(UAE)
    They also race HSV prepared Commodores there as well.
  • holdenguyholdenguy Member Posts: 145
    I think I read somewhere that Lutz is just testing public reaction to the G8 for a couple of years.
    Then, If sales are good, they will tool up for them in Canada.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I think that the G8 is imported from Australia mainly because it can be a 2008 model. I think other RWD sedans will be built here, but will probably be more like 2010 models.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I was aware that Holden exports cars to a number of countries. The Statesman I think will be the basis for a large Buick sedan. Possibly also a Cadillac DeVille, but I am not sure where Cadillac is going with the DTS.
  • holdenguyholdenguy Member Posts: 145
    Hey Bumpy,
    Great job on the pics.
    Which one do you like, ours or yours?
    I don't much like the US version, the front is a bit too rounded.
    Same with the G8.
    I think they,"Lutz", is just trying to give you something that may have looked similar with to stuff offered in the past.
    Most Aussies think the US versions of Holdens look a bit poxy :)
    What is an Enclave?
    Could you post a pic please.
  • holdenguyholdenguy Member Posts: 145
    I have not heard anything here about sending you guys any Statemans as yet.
    I guess they just what to see how the G8 goes sales wise.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    My thinking is that the zeta platform, similar to the Holden platform, would allow us to build both the Commodore and Stateman size vehicles. I may be wrong of course. I think the zeta sedan platform will probably be 2010 model year availability at the earliest.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    My question is: Instead of closing factories and laying off workers, why doesn't GM use one of its slow-producing factories to build these models instead of importing them from Australia?

    Last I heard, the idea was to convert Oshawa to RWD Zeta production for MY 2009 or 10, maybe another plant for overflow, and source the G8 from Australia in the interval.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Naah, you have to subtract the VAT and other taxes from the Opel price first.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    I don't like the Pontiac nose much. It makes the car look like a giant suppository.

    The Monaro noses are nice, but I like this one better:
    image

    and this one best of all:
    image

    The Buick Enclave is this thing, giant unibody SUV, a size larger than a Ford Territory or Toyota Kluger. Front-wheel drive, because the only Americans who know what oversteer is are race car drivers.
    image
  • v_dv_d Member Posts: 89
    there`s no tax in the prices whatsoever
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Well, FWD is cheaper to build. Given the size of this people hauler, nobody is going to pretend to be a boy-racer with it. FWD has some packaging advantages too, such as no transmission tunnel when floor is low and low drive train weight so more passenger/cargo weight is available for a relatively light-duty platform. Considering how successful RX/Highlander (Harrier/Kluger) platform is worldwide, copying is not ill-advised. The key question is can GM copy the quality and consistency.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    bumpy,

    you and I pal are finding some common ground. I think they should leave the cars alone. Just switch the steering wheel from right to left and it's good enough. How bout this idea guys ? I personally like the Holden styling and the kidney grill from Pontiac has lost some of it's luster. I personally just love the Holden HSV and would love to see it's body work intact for a high performance G8 model. Hell it would give Pontiac some distinguishment in their trims without costing them any money. They could kill 2 birds with 1 stone. ;)

    I also like you like the Holden Statesman and that other car you showed me. I started thinking and I changed my opinion on it and believe now it would make a nice RWD Lucerne. Does the "Statesman" have Delphi's Magneride MRC ? If so that would ensure that Buick, won't loose it's ride comfort.

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    My question is: Instead of closing factories and laying off workers, why doesn't GM use one of its slow-producing factories to build these models instead of importing them from Australia?

    That is a good question ? Lutz, said if they didn't import it the G8 wouldn't of happened. A suggestion to GM, would be to save the OKC GM plant and build Zeta cars there in the future. GM, pumped hundreds of millions into that plant and would be wise to not totally waste that investment. This is something the UAW will address this contract in September in attempts to save U.S. plants from closing.

    The UAW, I guarantee will say to GM, look we will pay a portion of our health insurance to save you tens of billions over the years like we did last year but what do we get in return ? We want to not only save membership jobs but we want more. We the UAW will hold hands with GM, on the march to Universal Healthcare. We (GM-UAW) will work togeather to get congress to not only address healthcare, but we will lobby congress to fix the trade laws in the domestic's automobile manufactors interest. We also are in agreement the currency manipulation is killing the domestics and needs to be addressed and fixed. We will ask Ford and Chrysler to hold hands with us also. We
    (UAW, GM, Ford, Chrysler) togeather will also lobby congress to get billion dollar grants for alternative energy technology and we ask in return is for the big 3, to save UAW domestic jobs and build more modern facility's and improve existing ones here in the U.S. to expand and grow our membership. We the UAW want our Big 3 to build relavent products here in the U.S.A. for our citizens to buy. We the UAW will sit on the final product approval board to make sure the proper products are launched to make sure past mistakes that have cost our membership jobs doesn't happen again.

    We the UAW will also make work rules more flexible and cost effective for the company across the nation similar to the Lansing, Michigan plant but we will expect more union jobs in return by General Motors expanding here in the U.S.

    So this is my Top-5 predictions for the next UAW-GM contract.

    #1 Since Toyota workers are making $3 dollars an hour more than UAW workers the UAW will probably be able to save wage cuts and perhaps even gain some over the contact because they will need to make extra money to invest into the new 401K plan for retirement.

    #2 I expect the comapny however to increase health care costs per worker from $0.00 to $100-200 a month. This will save billions more dollars for GM. I also think we could see a small increase for retirees but I doubt it. I do believe active employees will shoulder all of the costs.

    #3 I expect more flexible work rules across the nation. The UAW won't lose any existing jobs but will ask for more plants and jobs to be built here in the U.S.
    I also expect if Universal Healthcare gets passed GM, will expand even more here in the states after 2008' and I believe this will be in the contracts language.

    #4 GM, will ask the UAW to delete the define benefit plan and will in return give future and recently new UAW employees a "enhanced" 401K plan to eliminate legacy costs. I expect the UAW, will be able to use this one as a bargaining chip to get more jobs and perhaps get real "profit shairing" bonuses and stock options ? I do see the define benefit plan going away but maybe the UAW can pull of a miracle and save it ?

    #5 Jobs Banks. UAW-President said this one is off the table but I'm still skeptical..... All of the existing members in the jobs bank have been transferred as far as I know. I know the Big 3 will go after this one but I don't think GM, will succeed. The UAW, will counter and say why are you guys worried if we already agreed you guys are going to expand here in the U.S. and regain market-share. I do think the jobs bank program will be a bigger issue with Ford and Chrysler since they are facing even greater market-share declines than GM and thus will have less jobs.

    Very Possible Secret #6 ;) General Motors, Ford, Chrysler, will pressure the UAW to unionize Toyota and Honda plants if Toyota fumbles the ball and cuts wages/benefits like the recent news article suggest could happen. This alone also prevents further labor cost's that undercuts GM, Ford, Chrysler. Since GM has 400,000 employees receiving retiree healthcare packages getting a similar package secured at Toyota and Honda, for the transplant workers is in the best interest of both GM and the UAW to level the playing field further.

    In summary I think the September contract issue will go smooth without a strike at GM. I think it's in both party's interest to avoid a strike but GM, is going to have to remain fair and vis versa for the UAW. I believe if they work togeather during contract and their after the UAW and General Motors can make some promises to each other for the future ONLY IF GM, remains successful with the turnaround plan.

    It's in both sides interest to elect politicians that are friendly to american business and worker's which will save the company money while saving blue and white collar jobs at the same time. The next president and congess hold the key's to future domestic manufactoring in this country.
    GM, is in the business to make money for it's investors, and the UAW is in the business to make money and secure benefits for its membership. However the UAW needs the company to make money so it can get those benefits. They both have a common interest in that respect.

    Rocky
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    >We the UAW will hold hands with GM, on the march to Universal Healthcare.

    We've had the push for "government" healthcare under various euphemisms since the Hillary secret, illegal meetings in the Hillary/Bill administration #1.

    We already have universal healthcare. No one goes without: the emergency rooms serve as doctor offices for many who've learned how to get the most out of that system. They use the EMS squads as taxis when they have a sore throat. The cost is picked up by county/municipal taxpayers as subsidies to the hospitals for taking indigent patients and writing off their bills. Anyone goes to the hospitals and they're covered under their welfare subsidy programs or the taxpayers in the area pay under indigent coverage.

    We have excellent healthcare for government officeholders in Washington. We have WIC which I believe came out of the Hillary administration #1. Children in the care of state programs and others are covered by those state taxpayers (i.e., foster children in KY). There also were some other subtle coverages.

    The difference is who pays for these. We taxpayers already are paying heartily for inefficient, inconsiderate users of the emergency room setup. If the taxpayers have to shoulder all the costs, the setup is going to cost much, much more overall because the politicians will make sure no voter goes unrewarded for their vote next time to the politician who implemented the most giveaway for their group. Do you know of a system the government has operated more efficiencly once they took over? Prescription drug makers are controlled by government; the cost is much higher than the same drugs in other countries!

    If the companies still have some control over the coverage and the implementation by the health insurance companies, it's a flip whether United Healthcare will be more efficient at coverage cost reduction at the user end (i.e., doctor's office visit UCR rates).

    I suspect the major companies will be better at cost control than any next federal administration will be. But just imagine the large healthcare donors and contributors helping elected officials plan how universal healthcare will be implemented using them as the handling agents? Imagine all the secret meetings that will be held a la Hillary's first attempt at socializing medicine.

    No matter what they call the plan, it's still a duck and the losers will be ???? US. Has anyone considered the tax costs for the program? In other countries the socialized retirement/healthcare plans cost a lot more tax money than here.

    For GM's benefit, there is no savior coming out of the clouds to pay retiree costs to which they agreed, unless the union wants to negotiate for retirees and workers to pay a more realistic fraction of their paychecks for the cost, like many other Americans are doing now... but I fully expect a little piece added here and little piece added there will chip away toward socialized medicine. It happened with social security. Now parents even try to get their kids labels in elementary school as mentally challenged, learning challenged, ADD, etc., so the parent can get "free" money from social security.

    GM will not be saved by having others pay for their workers' costs.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    imidazol97,

    John Edwards plan:

    http://johnedwards.com/about/issues/health-care-overview.pdf

    This is a very well thought out plan that is friendly to the tax payer and american corporations.

    This is why the UAW-GM support a plan just like this one because it cuts costs dramatically and insurance company's compete against one another. ;)

    I don't know what the Hillary's plan is ? Perhaps you do ?

    General Wesley Clark backs a "single payer" system which is found in Edwards plan.

    I didn't want to start a National Health Care debate but rather was giving my opinion on what I thought would happen by September based on current and past "shop talk" at GM, given to me by family and thought I would share it. ;)

    Rocky

    P.S. lets move on to another issue...... :)
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I guess many in the midsize sedan forum aren't impressed with the Aura. :confuse:

    It amazes me people will still find fault with a car that has won many awards and label it not smooth or rough. :sick:

    What does GM, have to do ???? They will never satisfy all I suppose but based on what I've been reading it is doing quite well this year. :)

    Rocky
  • rwisemrwisem Member Posts: 96
    Rocky, Unfortunately, the Japanese brands rule the mid-size sector. I'm not surprised there is resistance to a domestic entry as most posters there have their favs, whether Accord, camry, Altima or Mazda 6.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I don't have a problem with them liking a car better than the Aura, but damn it seems they don't even respect it. :surprise: They site Consumer Reports giving it a "middle of the pack" review as if they (CR) is the Bible.

    I guess I shouldn't be surprised one bit that mag being brought up. ;) I was also asked to find a source where the Aura won a review which I gladly did. ;)

    Rocky
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    It's like sports. People like to listen to the talking head that supports only their favorite guy/team. CR's bias doesn't show to the crowd.

    I'm going to run over to the Saturn store to see these. I've seen them moving around our area. Then I'll stop by the Toy deal. They're rapidly expanding their showroom since a Mazda deal opened up right next to them with a huge expanse of showroom and cars lined up on the lots.

    By now you should have learned that the idea car has certain features from someone's favorite. Then if the next product has that feature it's still missing some other now favorite quality/option/property/supposed feature. They'll never be good enough. It's like step parents.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I agree.....I thought that forum would have people at least acknowledging it's a job well done instead going over the car with a fine tooth comb just to site flaws or options it may or may not have that a VW, Camry, Accord, 6, etc, etc :(

    As lemko, would say "Holy Smokes" :surprise:

    Well I'm not getting a friendly response in the ELLPS forum as one guy sited a BMW 345i that is coming out supposably in 3 years with 1000 hp and 1000 lbs of tq.

    I think he said it fly's or goes back in time or something after he listed all the gimmicks I mean gadgets it had :P

    Geeez.........

    Rocky
  • holdenguyholdenguy Member Posts: 145
    That SS in the top pic is a VZ.
    The ute pic below are still the current style.
    They are not doing wagons and utes till late this year.
    That SS up top, the HSV version with the LS2 were selling for around low 40k before the VE came out.
    A bargain because they were above 50k.
    They had a 6 speed man or the crappy 4 speed auto.
    That Enclave thing looks like a re-worked Daiwoo?
    Thanks for the pic though.
  • holdenguyholdenguy Member Posts: 145
    http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/Video/VideoIndex.aspx?pg=9&vf=2

    Here is the HSV ute in a bit of track action.
    Enjoy.
    ps, watch the full vid.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    That Enclave thing looks like a re-worked Daiwoo?

    I'm sorry but the Enclave is much nicer in design than any Holden ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    read your e-mail. :D

    Rocky
  • jcgablejcgable Member Posts: 30
    I put in my two cents about the Aura in the mid-size forum. I test drove it Friday and left very impressed. I'll worry about Camcord fans trying to hunt me down and burn down my house later
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    The attributes you mentioned regarding the Pilot do not set the vehicle apart. The Pilot should be more fuel efficient and nimble than the TB because its unibody while the Chevy is body on frame. The Pilot is very average in every sense of the word, not that its a bad vehicle. The only thing that separates the Pilot from other similarly priced unibody SUVs is its useless third row. Other than that, it doesnt offer anything the Murano, Highlander or Edge dont offer. It has now been eclipsed by the GM lamdas in almost every category, including fuel economy.

    BTW, no one who likes the Pilot should be criticizing GM's plastics because the HOnda is FULL of rock hard plastics.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    GM will build RWD cars in CAnada at the Oshawa plant but they wanted to get the G8 here ASAP. The canadian plant will be retooled for camaro production that will start in late 2008 but most people feel that the investment being made there is much too large for just one car. Common sense suggests that the Impala and G8 will be built there starting in 2009 or so. I have heard nothing about the Lucerne being replaced with a RWD car yet, but I'm sure that is a possibility. I think the next generation epsilon FWD cars will be larger and fully replace the W cars and leave room for larger Zeta RWD cars.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "I would say, based on Hyundai experience, it will take GM 5-10 years of diligent honest efforts in all areas, from quality of design/engineering to quality of execution, to quality of post-sale customer service (this area is probably lacking most right now, from all anecdotal reports I hear), with no turns, embarrasing recalls or scandals, before those who are relatively open-minded will give them a legitimate chance."

    Gm has been improving quality for years so this is not a new process that they have just begun. As for recalls and setbacks, last time I checked Toyota is recalling more vehicles in the US than GM. I havent heard of any major GM recalls for quite some time. You are speaking of corporate scandals and recalls as if GM has been awash in them lately. I cant even recall the most recent GM corporate scandall. GM's bad news has centered around losses and it's SUV heavy lineup of late. If you notice, most negative coverage of GM doesnt focus on quality. In some ways that is old news and even GM hating publications like the NYT and others dont harp on GM's quality. Most articles will tell you that GM's quality is on par with Toyota and HOnda but the public doesn't get it yet.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    I dont understand why people want to be slaves to one or two brands when there are so many competent cars on the market. Honda and Toyota fans tend to be very loyal and very defensive when people suggests there are better alternatives on the market. The Aura is going to have a hard time getting conquest sales from Accord and Camry fans because they refuse to believe anything (esp. domestic) can measure up to their beloved cars. In a way, that is fine with me because that makes the Aura much less ubiquitous and less of an appliance. I would never buy a Camry just because so many are sold and you see so many on the road.
  • montztermontzter Member Posts: 72
    "As for recalls and setbacks, last time I checked Toyota is recalling more vehicles in the US than GM."

    Maybe that is because GM refuses to issue recalls and would rather pay attorney fees to fight them? Remember the side saddle gas tanks on pickups?

    "BTW, no one who likes the Pilot should be criticizing GM's plastics because the HOnda is FULL of rock hard plastics."

    I never criticized GM plastics, but come to think about it, I seemed to have problems with various little knobs, levers, and other pieces that would break off in my 2002 Pontiac. At least on my Honda's they are just cheap looking but stay intact.
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    Been gone for a week and all stuff breaks loose. All this anti-Toyota talk. Guys let it go a little bit. I mean GM has to earn back customers and they are not going to win them overnight. Honda and Toyota didn;t win their cutomers overnight.

    1487: I saw you had a point on Lexus and that they don;t sell that many cars. They were the leading US luxury brand seller last year. Also, I saw you had a point about Toyota not selling cars on styling and I agree but when has selling an Impala or Malibu sold for the styling for GM? Toyota is just bread and butter like Chevy or Ford. Also on your post above you say they are so many Camry's sold well GM sells alot of SUV's so I guess you wouldn;t buy one?
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    "Rocky, Unfortunately, the Japanese brands rule the mid-size sector. I'm not surprised there is resistance to a domestic entry as most posters there have their favs, whether Accord, camry, Altima or Mazda 6."

    Actually Pontiac G6 and Ford Fusion outsold Mazda 6 in 2006. Here are some numbers for you:

    Mazda 6: 66K units sold in 2006
    Pontiac G6: 157K
    Hyundai Sonata: 149K units
    Ford Fusion: 142K units
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    "Here's the difference between the UAW and Big 3 vs. the Japanese nameplates. The UAW is an American Union and the Big 3 are American business. The Toyota's, Honda's, Nissan's, Subaru's, Mitsubishi's, are JAPANESE owned business's and DO NOT have the right to lobby congress because they don't have american interests. They are FOREIGN, not AMERICAN. I hope that clears things up."

    I disagree with your opinion because this is not the 80's anymore. Mitsu, Toyota, and Honda all have workers in the US so I think they hav a right to lobby congress. Rocky, I respect you as a poster on this board but I disagree with you on this. Like I said before, GM sells cars overseas just like honda and Toyota sell cars out of their home country.
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    "Toyota says GM is coming around, but Toyota fans say they dont see any signs of progress. Interesting. I think Toyota is taking GM much more seriously than people here so that counts for something in my book."

    Of course Toyota is going to take GM;s latest round of new product seriously. What do you think Toyota's not going to look at GM's latest round of products releases? Toyota is a very smart company and they always looking at whats going on with other brands. Toyota in the 90's Honda was stiff competition. Than Toyota saw Hyundai coming up a few years ago and acknowledged Hyundai's presecnce and now to me its no surprise that Toyota is taking notice of GM right now because of GM's new product releases and Gm is Toyota's biggest rival right now too.

    Even as an import guy I am taking notice of GM's latest round of product releases.
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    "I think Toyota is already getting bit in the butt. I sat in a new Camry last weekend at the Philly car show and its interior wasn't all that. In fact, I believe the new Impala has a better interior than the Camry."

    I thought the Camry interior is way better than the Impala's. Oh well just differences in opinion. Just so you don't think I'm biased the last generation Camry(02-06) interior to me was not that good.
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    "The point with the nameplates is that Toytoa has lauched a lot of flops and when that happens they change names. The Previa, Echo, MR2, Celica (last gen) and Supra were not successess at all. When GM changes names (grand am, Lesabre, etc.) there is a big fuss about how GM is "confusing" customers and they need to stick with proven names but Toyota changes names all the time. Acura and Infiniti have done the same thing but no one seemed to care. Remember the Vigor and the Integra? remember the SLX?"

    The Celica and MR2 flopped because Toyota didn't market those 2 cars enough like they do the Camry and Corolla and Toyota at the time had a lack of appeal from younger buyers(when the last gen Celica and MR 2 were out and now as well.)

    GM has a history of chanfing names with its bread and butter 4dr sedans while toyota doesn;t.

    As for Acura the Vigor was not a bread butter product car. THE SLX I don't know if Honda expected it to be a big seller. The Integra/RSX doesn;t fit in with Acura's current product line so thats why the sports car got killed from the Acura Line. Acura is more up-scale now than they were 10 years when the Integra was its top seller.

    Infinti-Yeah they have changed and killed product names alot especially in the past 5 years. I'll give you that.
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    "If you request I can supply links to the Camry groups for you to read. here. Camry Problems and repairs nee 2007 Camry Woes"

    I'm sure Toyota will have the bugs for the 08 Camry worked out. I would never buy a car in its first year of new bodystyle because they suffer from too many first year issues.

    I;m sure GM has cars with problems too so its just not Toyota's with problems.
This discussion has been closed.