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That is not an accurate comparison, as BMW/Apple are more niche market players.....maybe a better "show" but intended for a smaller "audience".
"It has nothing to do with value, performance or styling...."
Uh, I don't think that is entirely true. For starters, check out the "true cost to own" data on on this site about overall value.
"That has changed now and Toyota and Honda cars are now default purchases for many Americans based on perceived reliability and resale value."
You are repeating yourself. Remember, this is how it all started with us here - why we have that perceived image based on the negative experiences with GM.
GM 'supporters' et al are talking about how good things are NOW and taking the position that the situation is like a football or baseball game; that is - it's a new game and forget about last week. True fans don't dwell on losses.
GM 'nonsupporters' et al are talking about the longer run - in a losing season, a series of losing games makes one cautious about betting on the new game - particularly when the amount of the bet is $25,000 (the cost of a new car). Gamblers know that the safest bet on the weather is that today will be like yesterday.
The bottom line is that the supporters want desperately to forget the past, and the nonsupporters aren't willing to do that.
I'd like to see GM succeed, but I'm not going to blind myself and ignore what I see as facts.
The Aura has done very well in reviews; however, I believe the Catera did too. It took a year or two to find out whether or not the car was any good. So, we wait.
Pretending that the cars are better than they are won't do anyone any good.
http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070208/BIZ01/302080021/-1/- all
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Here's my next advertising campaign for GM:
Mother runs up to SUV full of little kids dressed up -oh so cute! - for the school play. Weather is terrible. The kids look a little sad and worried.
She jumps in the drivers seat and smiles gently at them in the rear view mirror. Then she looks up at a big damn ONSTAR button and REALLY smiles as she drives away over the branches dumped in the street in front of her by the "hurricane".
VOICEOVER:
Only General Motors offers Onstar in all its vehicles and now a full power train warranty for 7 years or 100,000 miles with roadside assistance.
GM - Car of the future stars...
a. They hold a whole troop of kids
b. They can handle bad weather and bad roads
c. They are reliable
d. If they aren't reliable - good old Onstar will prevent you from being alone and helpless by the roadside
e. Some will come and fix your car if you are stranded.
I think there are some powerful messages there - and women make more than half of the car buying decisions...
I don't think a lot of women are swayed by pictures of American flags, news reel clips of the 60's, and pictures of old trucks.
Makes sense, but it depends on how much time elapses. That may be legit for 5-10 years, but not 25-30. GM in 2007 has little to do with GM in the 80s, or even 90s. My point was people dont express the same reservations about import brands that have had quality issues. I dont hear anyone preaching that HYundai's should be left alone because the early 90s excel was crap.
GM should continue autoshow in motion, I liked that a lot.
"put the CRV or Pilot and Equinox back to back"
Dont see a problem with the Equinox. Just sat in it yesterday and it's hard plastic is no worse than what is found in the much more expensive Pilot. The equinox doesnt seat 7 and isnt a true Pilot competitor but its handling and interior are no worse. Check out the current interior, it's pretty nice. I find the Pilot to be one of the most overhyped imports on the market, I looked at it yesterday at the AS to make sure I wasnt crazy. Nothing special and its amazing how it's mileage is never mentioned when people talk about how efficient Hondas are. It gets 1mpg better hwy mileage than the Tahoe which weighs 1000lbs more, has a V8 and a 4 speed. Bring on the excuses.
Toyota is well aware that GM has momentum. Its new cars are winning awards, and to Jim Press, president of Toyota Motor North America, the new Malibu was the top car at the big auto show in Detroit.
"You just go down the list of things to do right that they're doing, and to some extent you have to do those right things and then you hold on and you wait for the rain to stop," Press said. "And I think the rain is starting to stop."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070208/.../gm_turnaround
Toyota says GM is coming around, but Toyota fans say they dont see any signs of progress. Interesting. I think Toyota is taking GM much more seriously than people here so that counts for something in my book.
Now how many more say they'd look at it and still end up buying something else, cause at the end of the day they don't trust Korean brand? Their big achievement seems one does not need to explain to their neigbors why they got that Sonata or Accent anymore.
I think GM is now in "yes, but..." situation, where a lot of people would say "yes they improved, but..." they would not buy it just yet, as they need more time to build trust the change is real, sufficient, and will last.
I would say, based on Hyundai experience, it will take GM 5-10 years of diligent honest efforts in all areas, from quality of design/engineering to quality of execution, to quality of post-sale customer service (this area is probably lacking most right now, from all anecdotal reports I hear), with no turns, embarrasing recalls or scandals, before those who are relatively open-minded will give them a legitimate chance. Then those will spread word to bigger sceptics, for another 5-10 years to get people who are openly "anti-gm" start thinking if the're missing something by flatout dismissal.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I have a Pilot and all I can say is test drive one. Be sure to test drive it on the freeway, in town, on bumpy roads and on smooth roads. Test the acceleration, the stopping, and if you can, test it with a couple of inches of snow on the ground too. Drive it over a bumpy, raised railroad crossing. Try out it's cornering.
Then do all of the same with the Chevrolet Trailblazer.
Rocky
If I posted non-sense like some have in here in Toyota forums or in the BMW "focused" flag waving forums like the Entry Level-Luxury Performance Sedan forum I'd be ran off.
I was told by the host this and that isn't allowed because it didn't have a perceived luxury brand title. The ELLPS host allows the regulars to decide what is allowed in subject matter. We aren't getting those same benefits over here. The sad thing is many of those regulars in the ELLPS forum that make decisions on what stays and what goes have occupied this forum "stirring the pot". They ask for strict regulation in their favorite forums but can't respect the same courtesy in mine/ours.
I don't have a problem with the way you are hosting but if different points of views are going to be allowed on hot button issues then it should be accross the board that way. I and others have gotten run off by you and other hosts for having a different point of view in the past in other car manufactor's forums. I had enough respect to avoid those forums in the past but I as of late have been so frusterated about hearing about how great Japanese cars are in a GM forum that I don't give a rip anymore. The foreign vs. domestic issue has taken over this board instead of talking about the issues that directly affect GM.
Well I will play by the new rules and expect the same fair treatment as others have been getting.
Rocky
Perhaps one of you have added this up. This has to be in the hundreds of billions more profit advantage by now.
Rocky
Well as I've pointed out their are valid reason why it's more expensive and have pointed those out to you already.
All countries manipulate their currency, including the U.S. Toyota's main advantage stems from more efficient factories and better attention to detail in the production process.
If the U.S. is able to get away with it then that's the other country's problem. I as american can't solve their problem. I however have enough brains to recognize they address the problem by tariffing U.S. made good.
You also are confused because Harbour, and other studies have indicated that the UAW plants are as efficient as the Japanese, in most cases and many are more efficient making it pretty much a wash.
Spinning tales of conspiracy theories involving currency manipulation, government corruption or media brainwashing will be greeted with a big yawn by satisfied Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, BMW and Mercedes owners.
Perhaps the 110th congress will fix the currency manipulation issue and all those Toyota's, Honda's, Nissan's, won't look so good after all.
Rocky
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Rocky
I don't think that's a good enough justification to allow it to happen to us because the Europeans allow us to do it to them. As I explained earlier that the Europeans "tariff" our exports thus they solved their problem with us manipulating our currency.
I don't see why or how this is hard to understand. :confuse:
Rocky
Rocky
I don't care if it's fair for Japan, because they have essentially closed their markets to U.S. exports. I'd rather make it unfair to them and tax them enough to help pay for us protecting them with our military.
Rocky
So you are saying that extra $3-12K per unit makes no difference to a company's bottom line. WOW, talk about fuzzy math. :surprise:
GM's problems have been building for years; now the chickens have come home to roost. First GM was insulated by the good cars it built in the 1960s early 1970s (despite what you read on this board, many buyers were willing to forgive one bad experience with a GM car); then by its sheer size; finally by the SUV and light truck boom. By 2001, it had run out of saviors.
Wow, something new has came up "History" Let's talk about the 60's, 70's and 80's and so on to prove a point. Haven't we been down this road already for the 1000th time ????
2. Is there media bias? In the general media - some, but not enough to explain GM's current troubles. And the media is lazy. For example, the Vega was a dog, but the Oldsmobile Cutlasses (actually, all of the full-size, intermediate and compact cars from GM) of that time were not. But the media forgets to make that distinction, and paints all GM vehicles from an era with a broad brush.
So back to the past again. Wow, some can't leave the past alone. :surprise: "Current Problems" ???? What current problems ? I see little wrong with GM's current problems and stats show GM, is headed for a bright future.
In the enthusiast media - yes, there is a bias in favor of a certain type of vehicle, and it is not the type of vehicle GM makes.
I'd like to know more about what cars GM doesn't make that others supposably make so much better ? Maybach, Lambo, Ferarri, ???????
In some ways this is unfair. Car & Driver, given the choice between a BMW and a Buick, will always favor the BMW. It is not fair to say that the Buick is "bad" or "junk," as some buyers want what a Buick offers, and don't care for the driving characteristics of a BMW.
That's the most fair and balanced thing you've said so far and I appluad it.
BUT, if buyers are abandoning GM models for import models - as has been happening in several segments - and GM then builds a DIRECT competitor, and said competitor is not as good as the import target, and the magazine's testers say so, that is NOT bias.
As I think Imadozel97, said it all has to with the way the story is laid out. Car mags in many cases like to tell positive things about GM, cars and midway through the story tone changes and by the end of the story the GM, car is a POS to the reader.
Especially when testers working at different organizations or publications reach the same verdict. The fact that a Cobalt places behind the Civic in virtually every test I've read is not the result of bias.
I somewhat agree because the Civic is newer and should exceed what the Cobalt does well. However your example isn't a good one because that conclussion is clear cut
A better one is how everyone in the U.S. picked the Silverado, but edmunds.com took a stripped Silverado and Nissan Titan, and did a comparo against a leather lined w/ navigation + bells and whistles and thus came up with the conclusion the Tundra is superior to the Silverado. Well if that isn't biased then I don't know what is ? A apples to oranges comparo + not even listing prices is biased of each is biased. I guess they felt they could get away with it becauseToyota, hadn't released prices at the time of the comaro. :mad:
3. Of course there is government corruption. I just do not believe that Toyota or Honda funneling money to members of Congress - or even state legislatures - is a story waiting to happen, or even the reason for their success.
So you don't think Toyota and Honda, are going to try to buy-off members of congress that want to address the currency maipulation because the home team is suffering ???? I think that is pretty naive. :surprise:
Also, it is not against the law for any corporation - including Toyota - to make campaign contributions to a legislator. The UAW does this, too. If anything, the UAW is MORE involved with this sort of thing at both the federal and state level. But it isn't illegal for the UAW to do it, either.
It shouldn't be illegal for and entity standing up and fighting for american worker rights. It's not like the UAW, is fighting against the mininum wage, or hoping to lower safety standards in manufactoring plants, or fighting against workers receiving extra compensation for working more than 40 hour work weeks. I guess if you don't like american workers then you would think this is a bad thing ?
If anything, I'd look first at the UNIONS as a source of government corruption. Come to Pennsylvania, and I'll tell you some stories of government corruption, starting in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh...
I guess you answered my question and you dislike not only the UAW, but what they stand for. I guess you dislike american workers.
Rocky
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Well the Cavalier was only discontinued a few years ago.
You suggest that one shouldn't hold bad experiences against a company if those experiences happened 10, 20 years ago.
While that might be a logical argument, if I had a bad experience and moved to another brand, and was very satisfied with that brand -- then even new GM products of EQUAL QUALITY would not dislodge me. I mean, I'm happy with what I have, the other company has improved, but... I still have some lingering doubts. And I have no doubts about my current good experiences with brand B. Why would I switch? I'd need something so compelling with the former brand that stung me that I was willing to take the (perceived) risk. And an equal product isn't going to be enough.
That's why the whole poor quality thing is so expensive in the long run. Look at the profits made by GM and Ford in the '90's. They could have put all that money into world class cars. They didn't and they are now fighting for their lives (Ford more than GM). Isn't that the way the market is supposed to work?
I don't get the incredulity as to why the press and consumers are suspicious of the domestic makes. This is a perfectly logical situation, statistically. It doesn't matter whether you or I had a good or bad experience with brand X. It matters in aggregate what the combined experiences of the masses were. It's going to take time and very good products, but it WILL turn around if GM can continue to deliver. But hoping it is all forgotten when some good looking products have been announced and not even sold yet is a little bit impatient. The whole lineup has to have substantial improvement and some track record, and they're not quite there yet.
"Toyota's plans to restructure wages and benefits may also embolden Detroit's struggling automakers, which will seek billions in concessions this summer during contract negotiations with the UAW.
""Now I can understand if the company is having a hard time," said Harper, who has been off work for 12 weeks while healing from shoulder surgery after an on-the-job injury. "I'm more than willing to work with that company to keep my job. But when they just take it because they want more, I don't agree with it at all."
In a memo to workers at the plant after the report was circulated, Toyota noted that workers at Georgetown earned $3 an hour more than the U.S. auto industry standard. The workers averaged $30 an hour, ncluding bonuses.
Currently, the median for comparable manufacturing jobs in Kentucky -- half earn more, half earn less -- is $12.64, according to the U.S. Department of Labor.
Toyota's strategy resembles what Hyundai Motor Co. uses at its plant in Montgomery, Ala. Assembly workers there make $14 an hour, about half the wages, bonuses and benefits of Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Detroit's automakers. But Hyundai's wages still are considerably higher than for comparable Alabama jobs, which pay $10.79 an hour.
Harley Shaiken, a professor at the University of California, Berkeley, who specializes in labor issues, said Toyota's effort to hold down labor costs does more than empower Detroit's automakers: It promotes Toyota as the industry's new labor leader."
Lest anyone quibble about source of quotes: "The company has acknowledged that the documents supplied to the Free Press were authentic. The presentation apparently was left on a shared computer drive and later printed, Toyota spokesman Daniel Sieger said."
I read it in the Enquirer. No, not that one. The one in Cincinnati, home to TEMNA in Erlanger, KY, Toyota Engineering Manufacturing North America.
http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070208/BIZ01/302080021/-1/- all
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Something to the fact you Lemko, said: "I could rip a Nissan Titans interior apart with my bare hands" made me tear up with laughter. Now you concluded this year it might take a screw diver to do the job since it's been improved.
I ask this: A Phillips, PoziDriv/SupaDriv, Robertson, TORX, Allen ???? :P
Rocky
P.S. I don't think it would take much to tear apart that plastic gray trim on the new Tundra's interior. I personally think the new Titan's interior is light years a head of the Tundra, but both are 2nd class to the Silvy's.
Rocky
Rocky
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Rocky
Rocky
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Rocky
Rocky
Like the edmunds editor said where peoples sense of humor ?
Rocky
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=119550
Rocky
Heck, they never looked good to me in the first place!
Rocky
Toyota, has experience working with unions and the UAW are like [non-permissible content removed] cats compared to the Japanese Unions.
Rocky
We can get iditarod sleds, mushdogs and build igloos and we won't even need any stick-frame houses anymore!
It's amazing what a lack of sleep can do for a person. :sick:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
They also better be careful because our next president might not be friendly to imports and if they pulled out and fired thousands of americans' their could be public and political backlash against japanese products. I don't see Toyota, doing any of this but I've been wrong before.
Rocky
The US companies will look at the same technique for justifying less than inflation increases along with other negotiation points.
Maybe they should look at CEO salaries for guidance. Do we count the CEOs in Japan and Korea or just the ones here in US for the foreign companies?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
My guess is this would probably be Toyota's options:
1: Stop building new plants here in the USA, and slowly reduce production with what they have here, making just enough to break even with the investment.
The market for Toyotas would then be filled with imports from Japan and other countries, thus resulting in the loss of the USA manufacturing jobs.
2: Toyota would refuse the UAW deal, the UAW members would strike, and Toyota would replace them with new workers.
I'm sure the Toyota gave a lot of thought to option 2 already, and located plants accordingly. They are in areas without UAW history, and people would be lining up to take the jobs paying the non-union wage.
Have any of you read anything more about the CTS-V. I've heard next spring as a 2009' model but of course that is a rumor. God, I wish I could get some confirmed info. If it's not going to be out until 2010' I'd just order me a 08' CTS or Sierra Denali. I really like the 08' CTS seeing it again in Motor Trend is enough to make me happy about it.
I guess my problem is if I get the 2008' CTS and the 2009' is so much cooler (hard to believe) :surprise: then I will want a CTS-V. I don't want to make a mistake. I know that sounds awful because choosing a 08' CTS is buying smart !!!! The 600 horsepower "V" along with other performance upgrades is likely to be the closest thing I'll ever get to owning a Corvette, anytime soon.
So if you guys/gals know anything about the CTS-V, please post it here.
Thanx,
Rocky