General Motors discussions

rockylee

I tell you, if GM wanted to make a mint, they should figure out and patent a paint that never needs washing or waxing. Just hit it with a hose and go. I'd pay an extra 2 or 3 grand for such a wonder.

My former Acura TL had a "Uralyne?" protective coating that my dealer told me I would never need to wax my car car. It was suppose to last like 3-5 years if my memory is working correctly. They also had a formula for my seats to resist UV Rays and cracking and fading. I know Dupont makes a similar protective barrier. I hate waxing thus it's a good investment IMHO.

Rocky

gagrice

You have excellent roads in TX compared to CA. I was very impressed on my vacation through the Hill Country. We stayed off the Interstate as it was crowded with trucks. I think we may be talking about different wheels. The ones I see that look ridiculous are huge wheels with almost no tire. Probably not factory options. Though I did see an xB with the goofy looking ones at my local Toyota dealer. $2400 dealer option. The factory wheels on the new GMC PU and Yukon are not too bad looking. Maybe Toyota is trying to play catch up :shades:

m1miata

I personally live in a climate around 65* most of the year, but other do not. I see lots of people in snow country saying in forums that they do like the FWD. It is the simplest, and least expensive course to take, so while it makes no difference in 20% of the country, the other 80% may want some cars with FWD. The AWD is interesting, and well executed by Subaru. OK, Audi in performance cars too. Like you said, higher end could go mostly RWD. I am thinking perhaps a mid-size to near large, like the Sonata may not hurt to keep in inventory. If Buick is still around, perhaps the Lucy could remain in FWD, as a really big car, with a lower price tag. Impala going RWD is a good thing, as it brings back some of the glory years, no doubt. From a practical sense however, there is some goodness in the FWD for point A to B transportation cars, as there really is more room inside without having to do any great magic, and some cost savings in assembly time.

I do like the RWD in many ways. Thinking it over though, it comes down to what is best for customers overall. Unless you don't care to cover all the bases, which is fine too. I am thinking FWD in Chevy, Saturn and Saab, with one Buick, like you said may indeed work out. Or perhaps a division dedicated, like Saturn to FWD, and include selling Saabs at Saturn. Why not sell Opels as Opels and Holdens as Holdens through Saturn, as an import division. Saturn plants could produce the VUE and other specialty cars. Guess the answer is in the economics of it all. If GM and Hyundai got together as partners or buyout of Hyundai, they could produce the FWD cars to be sold via Chevy dealerships as lower end up to 21K say. Saturn would handle more expensive FWD cars. Cadillac would be all RWD and AWD cars based on RWD platforms. Buick and Pontiac I fear have become relics of a different age. We shall see.
Loren

m1miata

Please keep spinners for race cars and hydraulics on lower rider cars. Hey, car jumping fun -- why not. Imagine some strange handling characteristics, but around town or for shows - some fun. Lowrider cars can be pretty damned cool. :shades: While I am not so interested in pogo jumping of autos, some of the restorations done to cars of the 60's are well done -- saved a bit of history.

Now there is one great advantage - history of cars which screamed hey look at me. Something Toyota has little to throw at GM is this history of once proud line of super styled cars. You name it, over the earlier years, perhaps up until say '77, GM was putting out some cars which had character. Now the Corona was not bad, and the Celica, but really now, at cars shows we see those '68 Camaros, Malibus, and '65 Rivieras, and well you get the point. How about the 50's Corvettes or Cadillacs. So what happened today? You noticed the Impala looks more like a larger Accord. If I want an Accord, and I bought one, I do not need a super-sized looking one. No, Honda knows how to make a Honda. I suppose it temporarily helps sales, but really now, whatever personality it did have, no longer exists. Year and years ago, they should have leveraged the heritage of car which looked American and had class leading style against Toyota. They will not win simply building a better Toyota. That pie is already cut too many ways. Toyota is probably a bit concerned about the Sonata. If GM owned Hyundai, perhaps Toyota would sweat more? Or maybe not. :P

Loren

rockylee

GM, is offering factory 20's on almost SUV and Truck. Cadillac has factory 22's as a option and thus is GM's biggest wheel. GM, says anything bigger is no benefit to ride handeling. These vehicles were designed to accomidate these larger wheels. I would say on most modern sports cars cars anything bigger than what the factory reccomends could be somewhat dangerous. Most sports cars and sport-lux cars in the near future will have 20's as atleast options. They will be designed from the factory to accomidate these wheels.

Yes we do have some pretty nice highways here in Texas, as not much salt gets used on our roads.

Rocky

rockylee

Well I hope GM, leaves Hyundai alone. Us americans have lost enough jobs to foreigners although Hyundai, would make selling cheap cars easier. I dunno. The bottom line GM, is damned if they do with RWD and damned if they don't with FWD. I guess the market now is saying build RWD cars because traction control systems and other electronics have made RWD cars more attractive and safer in inclement weather. The Lucy, and DTS is going RWD for 2011' which has been pretty much confirmed by GM inside leakers.

Rocky

rockylee

Please keep spinners for race cars and hydraulics on lower rider cars. Hey, car jumping fun -- why not. Imagine some strange handling characteristics, but around town or for shows - some fun. Lowrider cars can be pretty damned cool. While I am not so interested in pogo jumping of autos, some of the restorations done to cars of the 60's are well done -- saved a bit of history.

LOL, I had to tease you a bit.


Now there is one great advantage - history of cars which screamed hey look at me. Something Toyota has little to throw at GM is this history of once proud line of super styled cars. You name it, over the earlier years, perhaps up until say '77, GM was putting out some cars which had character. Now the Corona was not bad, and the Celica, but really now, at cars shows we see those '68 Camaros, Malibus, and '65 Rivieras, and well you get the point. How about the 50's Corvettes or Cadillacs. So what happened today? You noticed the Impala looks more like a larger Accord. If I want an Accord, and I bought one, I do not need a super-sized looking one. No, Honda knows how to make a Honda. I suppose it temporarily helps sales, but really now, whatever personality it did have, no longer exists

Yeah, GM has a history to rely on as they have used some retro themes already. I'm sure styling cues from the past is here to stay for a while. I don't see the Impala/Accord styling connection as you do? :surprise: :confuse:

Year and years ago, they should have leveraged the heritage of car which looked American and had class leading style against Toyota. They will not win simply building a better Toyota. That pie is already cut too many ways. Toyota is probably a bit concerned about the Sonata. If GM owned Hyundai, perhaps Toyota would sweat more? Or maybe not.

I don't think Toyota, will really sweat until the Chinese get here.

I am going to give a closer look at Fords new 08' Super Duty as the styling is wearing on me in a positive way. I would prefer a manual transmission but it appears you can't get one with the King Ranch Trim that I love so much. :sick:

Oh well the "King Ranch" are almost as much as a Cadillac STS V8 with almost all the options. :surprise:

Rocky

1487

Big rims are for everyone. I dont understand this notion that only the young and irresponsible want wheels larger than 15". That couldn't be farther from the truth. European cars typically offer larger wheels than Japanese or American cars and they are purchased primarily by upper income, well educated people. You can get 18s on a 3 series or A4. The M5 and RS6 come with 19s. The A8, S550 and 750 have optional 20s. Do you have a problem with the owners of those vehicles as well?

1487

The cobalt is the 3rd oldest small car on the market and thus its in need of an update. That said, there is nothing wrong with the cobalt's engine. The Cobalt has a larger engine than its competitors which gives it more power and torque but less fuel efficiency. If Checy reduces the size of the ecotec mileage will improve. There is nothing old or unrefined about the Ecotec engine, its only 5-6 years old.

62vetteefp

The problem is most people like the handling of RWD.

No, most people do not care about the handling characteristics RWD gives. They just do not. Ask ten people on the street and most likely all 10 will have no idea how RWD could improve handling.

1487

GM cars dont suffer wheel damage in most cases because of the width of the tires. GM will put 235s or 245s on a 7" or 7.5" wheel which means the tires project out beyond the rim and protect them from curb damage. Import cars usually use narrower tires that do not protect the rim. The TL is an excellent example of this and many TLs I see have scuff marks on the rims. I believe the TL has 245s on an 8" or 8.5" rim. Most cheaper Japanese sedans will have 205s or 215s on 7" rims.

62vetteefp

GM has design rules that protect all wheel surfaces (cover or wheel) from normal contact with a normal curb. If others are using skinnier tires on the same size rims they are not meeting the same criteria.

bumpy

No, most people do not care about the handling characteristics RWD gives.

I think a good number of people do care. They can't explain the physics involved and don't know enough to attribute the handling characteristics to RWD, but they do like the result.

62vetteefp

I have not heard about this issue in a while here. As I look at it there is not much of this at GM and even less in the future. Where I do see this is on the full size trucks which I still think that GM could have put a different body on the GMC's than the Chevys.

In the midsize market (the car market with the most volume)I see this future.

Chevy: FWD Malibu-low cost, economical($18-$26)

Pontiac:RWD G6 sporty-mid priced ($24-$30)
Buick:FWD LaCrosse Luxury-mid priced($25-$33)
Both sold at GMC/Buick/Pontiac dealerships

Saturn: FWD Aura-low cost, non GM buyer-mid priced ($22-$28)
I have not idea how the Aura does not steal sales from other GM products but they are not.

Saabs: RWD 9-3-Premium "European" ($28-$40)
sold at Cadillac/Saab/Hummer dealerships

In addtion GM will have some larger RWD vehicles

Chevrolet: RWD Impala-low cost, economical ($25-$33)

Pontiac:RWD G8 sporty-mid priced ($27-$37)
Buick:RWD Lucerne Luxury-mid priced ($28-$38)

Of course there are the Cadillacs at the high end.

62vetteefp

We will have to disagree. I see too many Accord/Camry/malibu/everything else that would not even know which end is driving AND if they drove them would NEVER come close to telling the difference the way they drive the cars.

gagrice

I only have a problem if there is a hazard to me and my vehicle when these very low profile tires break loose from the bead. As I stated before my VW Passat came with 17" wheels and tires. I thought they looked good and the car handled very well. I did not like the ride on our rough roads. When I bought my new GMC truck I had the big wheels taken off along with the $$premium and got the standard 16" wheels and tires. I think it is a passing fad. They have more disadvantages than advantages to the average buyer. Replacement cost of tires being a big one. Some look good, most look like something a child would want for Christmas. At least in my part of So California.

m1miata

That is why they will likely keep some FWD cars, as the upper end of the line-up goes RWD. And I agree, most people do not know how to drive a car these days. I do hope they are teaching how to drive with RWD, as well as, FWD car. Too many trucks, SUVs, and now the return of RWD cars, not to be teaching students about how to drive cars. The FWD may be a little safer, if you consider understeer a good thing. They have pretty much tamed the RWD and FWD cars these days, when they added all the electronic controls.

It is rather odd, the first time you smoke the tires on a FWD car, and you wonder if it is not really the engine on fire. :surprise:

With traction control and stability control, FWD is more easy to live with. If you buy a great handling car, like the Accord, Mazda6/Fusion or Aura, in most cases you don't need the next level up to RWD. There are times you could possibly miss it. And RWD does launch off the line better, but once again, like 62vetteefp said, most will never miss it.
Electronics tames FWD and RWD bad attributes as much as possible, so the difference on the street is pretty slim nowadays.

Pretty scary that so many people can not tell you if the car they are driving has anti-lock brakes. Wow, wait 'till the time comes to use the brakes in an emergency. Do you press and hold or threshold brake? I got all the fancy stuff now, so it is learning to drive by wire now. And before my giant 17" rims, the largest owned were the 15" wheels. And I got my first CD changer. As you can tell, I am not one to buy into all that extra jazz -- the stuff that can break or I don't use. Sorry, no blue teeth here. Navigation is not required. If needed, I can go to AAA for a map. Oh hell, I don't need no stink'en map!
Loren

m1miata

20" & 22" are better handling and ride -- doubt that to be true. All bling and no sing.
Loren

m1miata

Problem with the Cobalt is that it looked familiar from day one, as in old. The Cavalier was, or should I say, is as good looking, if not better. There was nothing new looking about the old gal. Never driven one, so I can't say as I like the Ecotec engine. So GM has an engine as good as the Japan makes in i4 configuration -- that's a good thing, if true. For too long - way too long, American brands of cars lacked any refined i4 engine, compared to the competition from Japan.

Loren

m1miata

Oh come on, it ain't that bad. Maybe it is 7 out of 10 don't have a clue as to how a car works and handles.

Loren

m1miata

Well I am thinking most all of the G6 platform cars are competing to a degree, though I imagine a Saab owner to be different -- in a nice way How do you know the Aura owner may not have been a G6 owner? As for sales, at around 4,000 units a month, Aura can not be stealing any sales really. They gotta get that car ramped up on sales soon! The $1,500 off deal may work. Then comes the Malibu, to steal the show ! Another G6. G6 sales are down.

Loren

xrunner2

20" & 22" are better handling and ride -- doubt that to be true. All bling and no sing.

Road and Track did a comparison test of different size wheels and tires perhaps in late 80's or early 90's. Did not save the issue. Whatever vehicle they used, think that 15" might have been the standard factory equipment. They did carefully controlled tests of 4 sizes on the test car. The standard 15", then 1+ (16), then 2+ (17) then 3+ (18). Memory is fuzzy, but think that their conclusion was that 1+ was best for giving best combo of handling improvement and least diminishment to ride quality. The 2+ and 3+ gave only incrementally better skidpad but at losses in ride quality and for sure extra uneeded costs in purchase price.

xrunner2

When I bought my new GMC truck I had the big wheels taken off along with the $$premium and got the standard 16" wheels and tires. I think it is a passing fad.

Yep. Wonder how many people who go from factory sane size wheels and tires to the jumbos inwardly wonder whether the loss in ride quality and handling is worth the extra cost just to look cool.

62vetteefp

How do you know the Aura owner may not have been a G6 owner?

You know me, I do not just ramble, I use data. :P

http://www.carspace.com/autoobserver/Albums/Saturn/saturn_xshop.gif/page/photo.h-

Does Malibu and Saab compete with the G6? Oh yea, between the Malibu and the current G6, but then again the G6 is supposed to be going RWD. And the new Malibu will be brand new and the G6 will be getting old. GM really needs to work on delineating the marques. They are doing that.

But there were 160,000 G6 sales (up 26% from 2005) and 165,000 Malibu sales(down 20%) last year. G6 should not be selling close to Malibu volumes. G6 should be a lower volume marque due to a supposedly higher price point. Then again they sold 270,000 Impalas which competes in the Chevrolet showroom (as does the Camry and Avalon). But GM sells a lot more Impalas than Avalon. Will G6 sales go down when the malibu comes out? I would hope so. the Malibu was pretty plain and had other issues.

Saturn only has about 400 dealers. A real handicap compared to Toyota and Honda in the volume sales arena.

Hey, maybe GM can get some standalone Buick dealers to give up their franchises in trade for a Saturn franchise!

GM needs to get their marques and models in line quickly. I at least see them doing this.

1487

GM has had the ecotec for quite some time now so their old i4s are irrelevant at this point. In fact all of the Big 3 have modern 4 cylinder engines that compete well with the 2.3-2.4L offerings from import comanys. Ford and Mazda use the same four as do Chrysler and Hyundai.

The Cobalt is a traditional looking small car but so is the corolla and its selling just fine. Daring looks have rarely been a requirement for the compact class and criticizing the Cobalt without taking into account the styling of its competitors doesnt make much sense. The Civic is the only small car I can think of that looks dramatically different from the rest of the field.

1487

As I stated previously, large wheels do not guarantee a harsher ride. It all depends on the suspension and tire profile. GM cars may have 17" or 18" rims but they dont use extremely low profile tires. 55 or 50 series touring tires will not give your vehicle a punishing ride.

As for replacment tires, the performance of the tire is a bigger factor than the size. A 17" summer only sport tires (like those on the Camry SE) will cost you more than an 18" touring tire. Cars like the G6, Aura and Impala LTZ use touring tires that are biased towards quietness and longevity. The Aura has a top speed of 118mph because Saturn chose to put affordable 18" touring tires on the XR instead of sport tires. The G6 has optional summer only sport tires on the GTP model that are likely pretty expensive.

xrunner2

No, most people do not care about the handling characteristics RWD gives. They just do not. Ask ten people on the street and most likely all 10 will have no idea how RWD could improve handling.

For average driver, FWD is best setup to keep them out of trouble in all conditions.

Just having a RWD configuration does not guarantee better handling. Look at Edmunds test of RWD CTS 6 cyl vs their test of FWD Acura TL 6 cyl. These cars have similar HP and weights, yet FWD TL did substantially better in handling tests. Also, Feb issue of R&T, tested new TL, G35 and Lexus. The data on handling showed FWD TL equal to the RWDs.

RWD with engine in front is not the magic elixir.

m1miata

Yeah, GM put cheaper tires on the Aura XE- I guess the Korean Hankook tires are OK, don't know. Could have put the Korean made Kumho tires on there and saved money while keeping the performance. The Accord comes with Michelin tires, which are pretty expensive. I will likely go with Kumho or Yokohama to replace those.

Loren

m1miata

Well not all conditions. Without stability control, you could get into some real trouble with understeer on a FWD car.

Yes, Honda has done a marvelous job bringing up the quality of FWD driving, along with Audi development over the years. Seems like FWD is getting better every day. Ah, forgot those Mini Coopers -- what a scooter.

RWD is still pretty neat though. Not only in handling, but in durability and simplicity. And you are not asking for everything up on the front tires to do all the work.

Benefits to both.

GM should exploit the fact of no Toyota RWD cars..... yet.
Loren

m1miata

I think I had one of those new i4 engines in my PT. Got the job done. Thrashy sounding and a shakin' engine though. Pretty good power.

The New Corolla is not out here in the States yet. The old one is just selling so well, they decided not to tempt fate. And it is more time to make sure the bugs are out of the new design. Actually the current one has a nicer interior and looks as fresh or fresher than the Cobalt, which is sort of retro Cavalier / retro Japan clone / perhaps a few memories of Pontiac thrown in. Sorta kidding. :P In the $12k to $14K range, the Cobalt may be a good enough buy. I would look for reliability ratings on Consumer Reports and other sources before taking the plunge. Above $14K, I would say there are other better deals.

Loren

carguy58

"You noticed the Impala looks more like a larger Accord. If I want an Accord, and I bought one, I do not need a super-sized looking one. No, Honda knows how to make a Honda. I suppose it temporarily helps sales, but really now, whatever personality it did have, no longer exists."

No 06 Impala came out before the refreshed model in the summer(june or July) of 05 while the refreshed 06 Accord came in September of 05 conincidetally resemble each other. The 06 accord's back end resembles the talights of the 04+ TL(base model.) When the 06 Implala came oyt onto the market I doubt GM knew what the refreshed 06 Accord would look like so thats why I said the 06 Impala and 06 coincedentally look like each other.

"Year and years ago, they should have leveraged the heritage of car which looked American and had class leading style against Toyota."

I agree with you they should have tried to beat Toyota on the styling.

"Toyota is probably a bit concerned about the Sonata."

No I doubt Toyota is concerned about Sonata at this paricular moment. In my opinion Toyota should be more concerned with the brandly newly restyled 08 Honda Accord that is coming out later this year than the Sonata.

"If GM owned Hyundai, perhaps Toyota would sweat more? Or maybe not."

I Doubt the Koreans would sell Hyundai to GM sepecially since both of those 2 companies are not in a real favorable financial postion to buy any car company's right now. Gm and Hyundai have alot problems within their own companies that they should not be worrying out buying other car companies right now. I know GM proposed to buy Chrysler but Chrysler is in talks with different investors right now to buy the company so I doubt Gm will buy Chrysler now.

bumpy

I think I had one of those new i4 engines in my PT.

The GEMA motor? The Caliber was the first DCX vehicle to use it, but the Sonata got it a year or so earlier.

fintail

I'll say this, that new Tundra is one ugly rig...I'll take a Chevy/GMC over that thing.

sls002

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/7710/ultra4vr.jpg

can't find a picture of the rear.

Both the 1995 Riviera and Aurora were the first G-body cars. They were the same size, big. The previous generation Riviera was a much smaller car. The second generation Aurora was put on the shorter wheelbase G-body.

I owned a 95 Riviera, then a 98 Aurora followed by my current 2002 Seville LS. I think that the Aurora was not a good as the Riviera, but still a nice car. My Seville is much closer to what I expected from the two previous cars.

tlong

The cobalt is the 3rd oldest small car on the market and thus its in need of an update.

I don't think you're addressing the issue, this is apologist. The Cobalt was not near class-leading when it was introduced. I'm suggesting GM focus more seriously in this area.

Let's see how good their update is.

gagrice

I agree wholeheartedly with you on that one. I think that Toyota has to do more than assemble the Tundra in San Antonio, to pull Ford or GM truck customers away. What percentage is USA made would be a good place to start.

gagrice

Just came from the bank. A current Corolla was parked next to me. The owner had put two Ty-raps on each hubcap to keep them from falling off. That was a first for me.

Big wheels. I stopped to look at the new X5 this morning. It was good looking with the 18" factory wheels. It was absolutely hideous with the factory 19" wheels. They also had a 7 series 4 door with 285/25-22 wheels and tires. It was not something I would be caught dead in. No tire protection for those wheels. First time you let someone bump a curb and you are out a grand. Ugly wheels in my opinion.



Hopefully GM does not follow BMWs lead on wheels.

m1miata

I meant to say that, nose to tail, the Impala looks as Japanese as the Japanese car, as they dumped the Impala look. And it is not a bad looking car. I simply lost self.
Loren

andre1969

Hopefully GM does not follow BMWs lead on wheels.

Those BMW wheels make me think of an exaggerated version of hte old Pontiac snowflake Rally wheel that was popular in the late 70's/early 80's.

m1miata

Looks wise, the Dodge trucks looked best styled to me, then the previous generation Ford, or the Chevy/GMC which is now a bit better looking than is the new Ford. In the Toyota line, the Tacoma looks pretty good IMHO. Tundra is OK - Titan kinda interesting - Dodge still rules in looks. Chevy/GMC look simple and clean -- should look good enough over time.

Loren

rockylee

I guess this one of those rare occassions where I disagree with you.

Rocky

fezo

I likes the old look better on it. It looked like an Impala. It wasn't Chevy's fault that they ended up with the same tail lights but it looked Japanese from the get go.

My theory is if you are taking your styling cues from the Japanese you are probably making a mistake.

rockylee

I 100% agree with you bumpy.

Rocky

rockylee

You have to much badge overlap. You either need to move one upmarket or eliminate one? I see this problem with Buick and Pontiac. You either are going to make Buick go upmarket or you better kill it. Pontiac could be like Acura and offer entry-level luxury with performance. Buick need to over lap the $30K range and move well into the $40K range IMHO. I know you disagree with my philosophy but my heart and mind are in the right place on this one pal.

Rocky

rockylee

Well Loren, we all know "the boss" the customer is demanding upper-end cars to go RWD, thus all manufactors are doing this. Well except Honda. :confuse:

Rocky

rockylee

Well better handling if your car was designed for them. The Commodores in Australia have 20's as a option and yes it improves handling The 22's on the Slade are more bling than benefit but it's not like these large tires will diminish performance.

Rocky

rockylee

Well the Cobalt, from my understanding is due for a redesign in a few years.

Rocky

rockylee

Agree.....I would think most people with average car intellegence knows RWD is better than FWD for handling.

Rocky

rockylee

G6 will be moot in a few years as it will go RWD and offer the market something different.

Rocky

rockylee

Hey were back to agreeing again :P

Rocky