Well Loren, we all know "the boss" the customer is demanding upper-end cars to go RWD, thus all manufactors are doing this. Well except Honda.
"the boss" is not all customers because they do not all agree. Sorry but we have a very diverse buying public. Honda AND Toyota AND Chevy-the big three in midsize cars, will continue to build LOTS of FWD mid size sedans for almost a million buyers a year. That is about 10% of the total vehicle market and that is only the midsize. Then you throw in Ford and the others and it is a huge market.
Yes, there is projected to be a growing market for RWD mid size sedans but there are few there now. (300 only right now) For all the talk here of RWD only Chrysler is being sold in quantities in that market. A mere pittance relative to the entire midsize sedan market.
I just reread your comment and I noticed you said "upper-end" and I guess that is more correct. But what is upper end? Over $35k? Then yes there are some sales there and more coming. I guess I got confused by the except Honda comment. Could not think of a Toyota that was RWD.
Wow so Fintail, chimes in Have you seen the new Silver hard plastic trim on the driver's side dash that looks very odd compared to the rest of the interior Fintail ? This oddness IMHO ruins the whole Tundra interior. I think the exterior isn't bad on the Tundra, but the interior looks quite weird and unexpected from Toyota. :surprise:
Well on the higher end, I suppose Acura may just do that - go RWD. That said, Audi has always been FWD, or AWD on pretty expensive cars. They seem to have their following. And Honda has the methods through advanced technology since the last of the Preludes, to make a sports car handle much like a RWD. Not sure what approach they will take to the larger Acura cars in the future. Do they go for space utilization while using electronics to make the car act more balanced in handling, or do they go RWD and towards a 50/50 weight distribution?
I have prefered RWD for a long, long time now. This Accord though seems to have tamed a lot of bad manners of the not so good ol' days of FWD. The extra weight up front is good at time, like in slipper conditions or snow, while you do get a bit nose heavy, and thus harder on tires. While it still seems like a lot going on up front, with steering and power to wheels all up front, the computer keeps that torque steering under control, and the understeering is not so present. Should it go into heavy understeer the computer takes over in adjusting the braking and throttle. And braking in the midst of a turn, like to avoid a surprise car stopped ahead or something, will not cause massive understeer even with so much weight up front - I hope. So far, this is my favorite FWD car. I may add a sports car to the garage, once I have a garage. For now, the FWD sedan is sporty enough. Take turns without fail. Double of yellow signs is not problem in most cases. I have yet to see the stability control light come on, and this is after taking a couple of really tight 15 MPH turns with a good snap of power. I don't push it to the limit I guess. If I had free track time, I guess on turns with some good run-off room, I could test the stability control limits. Loren
Well maybe styling cues from the Saturn Astra and Opel GT might help the next Cobalt? I personally would like to see the Opel GT introduced here in the states. Maybe this could be a RWD G6. I however did not read on whether the Opel GT was RWD or FWD?
Would like to see just how 20" wheels help in handling. At what speeds? Possibly wider tires? Seems to me it would diminish tracking, and speed.
Maybe R&T will do a comparo in a future issue of different size wheels and tires on two cars (a RWD and FWD) and produce measured results. Would not be surprised if they found out that the largest wheel/tire actually had worse handling in slalom than the smallest size. Big SUVs such as Excalade are ponderous already. Wonder how these would fare.
LAUSANNE , Switzerland -- To make Chevrolet truly global, General Motors is changing the brand’s marketing and retail activities. The moves reflect plans to speed up the growth of Chevrolet and other GM brands outside North America.
The company’s global plan for Chevrolet includes:
Common model names for Chevrolet cars Common dealer standards Common marketing messages for multiple regions.
GM wants the strategy in place by the time it introduces its newglobal compact-car architecture in 2010.
The architecture will underpin the next Lacetti, Chevrolet’s entry in the key lower-medium segment in Europe. Lower-medium cars accounted for about 20 percent of all new-car sales in Europe last year.
Chevrolet is studying the global use of the North American nameplate Cobalt for the next Lacetti in Europe. Chevrolet also will use the Aveo name globally for its small-segment cars. In some European markets, the Aveo is called the Kalos.
“There are opportunities to unify more things as our platforms go global,” said John Middlebrook, GM’s vice president for global sales, service and marketing operations, at an event tied to the Geneva motor show.
Middlebrook is overseeing the implementation of Chevrolet’s worldwide harmonization in his role of chairman of Chevrolet’s global brand council. The change is important because, in the past, GM ran its sales, service and marketing by country and region.
The US, Canada and Mexico accounted for two-thirds of Chevrolet’s 4.3 million global sales in 2006. But within a decade, the division expects most of its sales to come from other parts of the world.
Chevrolet also will extend its global strategy to marketing, advertising and promotions. The company could use major international events, such as the Olympics, to promote global messages for Chevrolet and could use international celebrities to sell Chevrolet around the world.
At the dealer level, GM is requiring all of its worldwide dealers to meet 16 standards that cover topics such as customer relations, showroom signs and dealership size.
Chevrolet increasingly is being incorporated into showrooms with sister brands Opel and Saab and the automaker is using that opportunity to align its standards.
Chevrolet and other GM brands’ global launch teams now get access to engineering data earlier than before. That allows the Chevrolet global brand council to establish a worldwide marketing theme at least 18 months before a vehicle launch.
Keeping similar tire attributes (sidewall/tire construction, rubber composition, etc.) and then reducing sidewall height by increasing wheel diameter will give a stickier tire to the ground and therefore more precise handling and higher g forces. The lower the sidewall flex the better the handling. With one caveat. the road surface needs to be reasonably smooth.
If on a perfect flat race surface the smaller aspect ratio tire will give better handling. If you introduce bumps, potholes, etc. the low aspect tire will "bounce" all over teh place and handling will be detrimented.
Yes 62' upper-end to me was $35K and above as where I think RWD cars are still growing. I still think their is a growing demand in the $20-35K market also You will see a RWD Impala, G8, Camaro, be added to help meet this demand. The Chrysler 300 sold well but GM's new offering are nicer than the 300.
Honda/Acura have shown no future plans to develop RWD based cars. I personally think this is a mistake on their part as RWD becomes more and more popular.
Well what was the Opel I saw at the Geneva Autoshow here on this site ????
Hell 62' even I can't keep track of all these cars and will make a mistake now and then. Just to many European and Aussie cars for me to keep record of as they get rebadged under american names.
The Lacetti, would seem like a nice Cobalt but they better tighten up that suspension with a sports suspension for the SS models. I'd like to see sporty versions use the turbo ecotec to fight the Civic. The Cobalt needs Civic matching handling.
The Opel GTC looks sweet !!!! Is it FWD or RWD ? If it is RWD, I'd love to see it become the next G6 RWD if that would work or is possible? :shades:
I would assume that the Opel/Saturn Astra version would have a tighter suspension than the regular Chevy/Daewoo version, and a Cobalt SS/Astra Redline would have one tighter still. The Lacetti in the photo just looks awkward because it's having the crap flogged out of it.
Opel GTC: Front-based all-wheel drive; basically a preview of the next Opel Vectra/Saturn Aura. If the RWD G6 happens at all, it will come out of the bowels of Holden.
>. If you introduce bumps, potholes, etc. the low aspect tire will "bounce" all over teh place and handling will be detrimented.
Where is the Happy Meal compromise on this big wheel/thin tire stuff? I'm perfectly happy with my 16 in chrome wheels and 225/60s.
For normal driving like most of us actually do in commuting to /fro over roads with bumps, potholes, waves, which size is going to give the best ride and long life for reasonable tire replacement cost and give some good handling...?
You said what I had surmised: the thin tires aren't very forgiving when the road is not smooth and don't stick and flex to grip. Are they as capable on normal roads in emergency maneuvers?
Good question, hope the next Cobalt is built here since it is a high volume vehicle. GM has done it's best to build where they sell but that may not continue.
If on a perfect flat race surface the smaller aspect ratio tire will give better handling. If you introduce bumps, potholes, etc. the low aspect tire will "bounce" all over teh place and handling will be detrimented.
Yes. Glass smooth race course to get max out of jumbo wheels/tires. But, there is no glass smooth in everyday driving. And, there is a point of diminishing returns where advantage of wide tread/low profile is cancelled out by weight of large wheel/tire because of unsprung weight factor. If size alone mattered, then F1 and IRL cars would have very large wheels and low profile tires. Last time I looked, F1 cars did not appear to have low profile tires and their circuits are usually glass smooth.
I think you're already there with good 60-series tires. Wheel size is another matter; smaller wheels reduce unsprung weight (which means a smoother ride) and angular velocity requirements (which means quicker acceleration and braking). IOW, buy the smallest wheels that will clear your brakes.
Well maybe styling cues from the Saturn Astra and Opel GT might help the next Cobalt? I personally would like to see the Opel GT introduced here in the states.
While in many ways I'm not impressed with Chrysler, at least they've had some distinctive designs. Improve the mechanicals and interior of the Cobalt and put an interesting body on it. Think differently, don't copy. Caddy did this. The Caliber looks different. Where is GM's styling? (other than at Cadillac)
The few times I've been to Europe I am surprised at the variety of different cars there. They say us Americans only want large cars, but I happen to like smaller cars. Take the Caddy BLS - I don't know how well it rides, but it sure looks good. Why couldn't Caddy bring a TSX or A4 fighter to these shores?
Well it is about time you all got to see what it looks like
The headlamps would not be revised because that would be way too expensive. The hood above the headlamps is very fishy. In fact something wrong at the whole leading edge.
I agree 62' as it's not my cup of tea for styling but it's not butt ugly either. I think it might take a while to warm up too. It doesn't grab me like the Velite/Enclave's hood/grill
GMC Sierra HD: Highly Refined The Dallas Star-Telegram
By David Boldt
March 15, 2007
Back in the day, when the differentiation between a Chevy and GMC was little more than a grille badge and dealer network, we didn’t really understand the reason for ‘GMC’. Sure, the label had been around forever (it’s GM’s oldest), and it gave Pontiac and Buick dealers a truck to sell in rural markets, but I always suspected GM could turn nearly the same number of trucks using only the Chevy badge.
That was then, and this is now. ‘Now’ puts GMC second only to Chevrolet in annual volume. ‘Now’ means 75% of GMC’s ’07 lineup is all-new. And ‘now’ targets a GMC customer looking for “refined, innovative and capable” trucks and SUV’s. GMC’s Yukon historically delivers on that, the new Acadia should deliver on that, and the Sierra HD will deliver on that.
As is the case with the Light Duty variants, the ’07 HD is well separated visually from its Chevy counterpart. We’re not sure which we ‘like’ the best (aesthetic questions force us to get in touch with our feminine side, and who wants to do that in a truck column?), but in voting on the Light Duty segment at this year’s Truck Rodeo Texas-based auto writers narrowly chose the GMC over its bowtie-badged sibling.
Those observations relevant to interior choices, chassis tuning and engine availability all apply equally well to the Chevy and GMC, and you won’t find any dynamic differences behind the wheel. From a marketing standpoint GMC is aggressively NFL, while Chevy is in the camp of Major League baseball. In deciding between Chevy’s Silverado and GMC’s Sierra we’d boil it down to the best dealer in your market area, and whether you can handle one more stanza of John Mellencamp.
Comments
"the boss" is not all customers because they do not all agree. Sorry but we have a very diverse buying public. Honda AND Toyota AND Chevy-the big three in midsize cars, will continue to build LOTS of FWD mid size sedans for almost a million buyers a year. That is about 10% of the total vehicle market and that is only the midsize. Then you throw in Ford and the others and it is a huge market.
Yes, there is projected to be a growing market for RWD mid size sedans but there are few there now. (300 only right now) For all the talk here of RWD only Chrysler is being sold in quantities in that market. A mere pittance relative to the entire midsize sedan market.
I just reread your comment and I noticed you said "upper-end" and I guess that is more correct. But what is upper end? Over $35k? Then yes there are some sales there and more coming. I guess I got confused by the except Honda comment. Could not think of a Toyota that was RWD.
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
I have prefered RWD for a long, long time now. This Accord though seems to have tamed a lot of bad manners of the not so good ol' days of FWD. The extra weight up front is good at time, like in slipper conditions or snow, while you do get a bit nose heavy, and thus harder on tires. While it still seems like a lot going on up front, with steering and power to wheels all up front, the computer keeps that torque steering under control, and the understeering is not so present. Should it go into heavy understeer the computer takes over in adjusting the braking and throttle. And braking in the midst of a turn, like to avoid a surprise car stopped ahead or something, will not cause massive understeer even with so much weight up front - I hope. So far, this is my favorite FWD car. I may add a sports car to the garage, once I have a garage.
Loren
Rocky
Loren
Loren
http://custom.autos.yahoo.com/gallery/photos-car-19736;_ylt=ArWti3sOXqKfbHl2FyMB- KH5X9skF?photo_cat=all&start=10&sel=12
http://www.toyota.com/tundra/interior.html
Strange the Toyota does not give a good shot of their interior?
Your Saturn dealer would like to have a word with you.
As for the next Cobalt, all indications are that it will be a derivative of the Daewoo Lacetti.
Have you ever seen the original Opel GT? It is a baby 1970's Corvette in steel.
Loren
I think the new GM big trucks are nice and clean, followed by Ford. I couldn't do a Dodge, too overcompensating.
Loren
Maybe R&T will do a comparo in a future issue of different size wheels and tires on two cars (a RWD and FWD) and produce measured results. Would not be surprised if they found out that the largest wheel/tire actually had worse handling in slalom than the smallest size. Big SUVs such as Excalade are ponderous already. Wonder how these would fare.
The company’s global plan for Chevrolet includes:
Common model names for Chevrolet cars
Common dealer standards
Common marketing messages for multiple regions.
GM wants the strategy in place by the time it introduces its new global compact-car architecture in 2010.
The architecture will underpin the next Lacetti, Chevrolet’s entry in the key lower-medium segment in Europe. Lower-medium cars accounted for about 20 percent of all new-car sales in Europe last year.
Chevrolet is studying the global use of the North American nameplate Cobalt for the next Lacetti in Europe. Chevrolet also will use the Aveo name globally for its small-segment cars. In some European markets, the Aveo is called the Kalos.
“There are opportunities to unify more things as our platforms go global,” said John Middlebrook, GM’s vice president for global sales, service and marketing operations, at an event tied to the Geneva motor show.
Middlebrook is overseeing the implementation of Chevrolet’s worldwide harmonization in his role of chairman of Chevrolet’s global brand council. The change is important because, in the past, GM ran its sales, service and marketing by country and region.
The US, Canada and Mexico accounted for two-thirds of Chevrolet’s 4.3 million global sales in 2006. But within a decade, the division expects most of its sales to come from other parts of the world.
Chevrolet also will extend its global strategy to marketing, advertising and promotions. The company could use major international events, such as the Olympics, to promote global messages for Chevrolet and could use international celebrities to sell Chevrolet around the world.
At the dealer level, GM is requiring all of its worldwide dealers to meet 16 standards that cover topics such as customer relations, showroom signs and dealership size.
Chevrolet increasingly is being incorporated into showrooms with sister brands Opel and Saab and the automaker is using that opportunity to align its standards.
Chevrolet and other GM brands’ global launch teams now get access to engineering data earlier than before. That allows the Chevrolet global brand council to establish a worldwide marketing theme at least 18 months before a vehicle launch.
If on a perfect flat race surface the smaller aspect ratio tire will give better handling. If you introduce bumps, potholes, etc. the low aspect tire will "bounce" all over teh place and handling will be detrimented.
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
Got a pic of that one bumpy ?
Rocky
Hell 62' even I can't keep track of all these cars and will make a mistake now and then. Just to many European and Aussie cars for me to keep record of as they get rebadged under american names.
Rocky
Opel GTC concept:
The Opel GTC looks sweet !!!! Is it FWD or RWD ? If it is RWD, I'd love to see it become the next G6 RWD if that would work or is possible? :shades:
Rocky
Rocky
Opel GTC: Front-based all-wheel drive; basically a preview of the next Opel Vectra/Saturn Aura. If the RWD G6 happens at all, it will come out of the bowels of Holden.
Where is the Happy Meal compromise on this big wheel/thin tire stuff? I'm perfectly happy with my 16 in chrome wheels and 225/60s.
For normal driving like most of us actually do in commuting to /fro over roads with bumps, potholes, waves, which size is going to give the best ride and long life for reasonable tire replacement cost and give some good handling...?
You said what I had surmised: the thin tires aren't very forgiving when the road is not smooth and don't stick and flex to grip. Are they as capable on normal roads in emergency maneuvers?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
A base midsize would be happy with 16's, look and handle better with 17's and then really handle, with a detriment to ride on 18's.
BUT styling on a midsize looks best with 18's.
Rocky
Rocky
Yes. Glass smooth race course to get max out of jumbo wheels/tires. But, there is no glass smooth in everyday driving. And, there is a point of diminishing returns where advantage of wide tread/low profile is cancelled out by weight of large wheel/tire because of unsprung weight factor. If size alone mattered, then F1 and IRL cars would have very large wheels and low profile tires. Last time I looked, F1 cars did not appear to have low profile tires and their circuits are usually glass smooth.
Rocky
Lemko, what do you think ? A lil' Buick Velite styling cues on the hood.........
Rocky
While in many ways I'm not impressed with Chrysler, at least they've had some distinctive designs. Improve the mechanicals and interior of the Cobalt and put an interesting body on it. Think differently, don't copy. Caddy did this. The Caliber looks different. Where is GM's styling? (other than at Cadillac)
The few times I've been to Europe I am surprised at the variety of different cars there. They say us Americans only want large cars, but I happen to like smaller cars. Take the Caddy BLS - I don't know how well it rides, but it sure looks good. Why couldn't Caddy bring a TSX or A4 fighter to these shores?
The headlamps would not be revised because that would be way too expensive. The hood above the headlamps is very fishy. In fact something wrong at the whole leading edge.
Rocky
Rocky
The Dallas Star-Telegram
By David Boldt
March 15, 2007
Back in the day, when the differentiation between a Chevy and GMC was little more than a grille badge and dealer network, we didn’t really understand the reason for ‘GMC’. Sure, the label had been around forever (it’s GM’s oldest), and it gave Pontiac and Buick dealers a truck to sell in rural markets, but I always suspected GM could turn nearly the same number of trucks using only the Chevy badge.
That was then, and this is now. ‘Now’ puts GMC second only to Chevrolet in annual volume. ‘Now’ means 75% of GMC’s ’07 lineup is all-new. And ‘now’ targets a GMC customer looking for “refined, innovative and capable” trucks and SUV’s. GMC’s Yukon historically delivers on that, the new Acadia should deliver on that, and the Sierra HD will deliver on that.
As is the case with the Light Duty variants, the ’07 HD is well separated visually from its Chevy counterpart. We’re not sure which we ‘like’ the best (aesthetic questions force us to get in touch with our feminine side, and who wants to do that in a truck column?), but in voting on the Light Duty segment at this year’s Truck Rodeo Texas-based auto writers narrowly chose the GMC over its bowtie-badged sibling.
Those observations relevant to interior choices, chassis tuning and engine availability all apply equally well to the Chevy and GMC, and you won’t find any dynamic differences behind the wheel. From a marketing standpoint GMC is aggressively NFL, while Chevy is in the camp of Major League baseball. In deciding between Chevy’s Silverado and GMC’s Sierra we’d boil it down to the best dealer in your market area, and whether you can handle one more stanza of John Mellencamp.
Rocky
Loren
loren