General Motors discussions

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  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    The key to that article is that the person walked away unharmed. The bags did their thing. The bags deploy only when there is someone on that side of the car, and the subject is not too lightweight and leaning into the side air bag. That is my understanding of how it works. If all bags have deployed I am assuming there are other passengers, and/or all the side sensors detected an impact. I could be wrong in assuming this, but I am thinking the older bag set ups deployed more bags than necessary??? Need an expert on this to chime in. The current Honda system, which I assume to be like the GM systems monitor which side the impact is on and the passengers.

    Let's consider the worse case scenario that more bags go off than needed and it totaled the car. I personally would rather have a totally car than a totaled out body. I realize I am getting older, but not totaled..... yet. ;)

    An all aluminum car, would be very cool, but they are expensive. I suppose if you can afford the car, you can afford the insurance. The Altima uses aluminum in the suspension to reduce weight. It is one of those things where total cost has to be a consideration. It was but a short time ago I saw some new articles all about the future cars being very light. I forget the exact weight, but much more than the two to three hundred pounds I think would help for overall performance in the GM line. I am thinking it was more like five hundred to seven hundred pounds off on cars of the future. I may do an Internet search for articles on that.

    I have owned many a car without all the modern safety devices until I ran into this package deal with my new car which not only added side bags, and anti-lock brakes, but also included Stability Control, I decided the package - a V6 included was the way to go. If you can get Stability Control at a reasonable cost today, I think you will get every penny back come resale time, since you now have the safety package of the future. It is a sensible value added, and could save your life in a side impact. Those are nasty wrecks.

    As for trunk lid supports, I never gave too much thought, other than it being pointed out as a positive feature by salespeople when car shopping. I do not normally have lots of baggage in the back. I am thinking if I traveled with several people, as in say a family load of kids and suitcases, it may be something I would consider more in a buying decision. That is like cubic square foot of space. I have a large trunk now, but not quite as much as usable space as the PT with the seats forward. It is all in how you weight things. I am happy to get better gas mileage with a lot more power now. So it all depends on how much value you place on each aspect of a car.

    Come to think of it, someone mentioned the new GTO is all about straight line power. Wasn't that what the old muscle cars were all about? The Holden is capable of being tuned to handle, I would think, as they race them in the V8 races in Australia. I no longer have Speed Channel - darn it. The GTO, if it had the hood scoops and more aggressive trim the very first year, and had not been side-sticker priced the first few months, could have had a better launch. That said, the gas mileage is pretty low and the gas crunch hit around the same time. GTO is also an American icon, so the thought of an import taking that name perhaps did not sit well. Could the Pontiac dealerships some day become importers of a whole line of Holdens? How is Pontiac really doing these days, less the fleet sales? Won't the Chevy New Malibu suck most of the sales of G6 sedans? And the G5 as a Cobalt? Pontiac is the GM performance machines division. What would those Aussie Imports of GM cars be perceived as? I would think the sporty and higher performance image should be there. What ya think?
    Loren
  • walterquintwalterquint Member Posts: 89
    GM on the offensive? That's laughable.

    Does GM offer a decent hybrid sedan? No. Meanwhile, Toyota has stolen the entire market with its Prius.

    Does GM offer a decent subcompact? No, it imports a mediocre offering from Korea. Meanwhile, Honda offers the nimble Fit, Nissan the Versa, Toyota the Yaris and the new Scions.

    Does GM offer a decent compact car? Sorta. The Cobalt is ok. But the Civic is superior. The Elantra beats the Cobalt on price and features. The Ion is dreadful. The Astra won't be much better.

    Does GM have a decent mid-size car? Well, the new Malibu will be competitive, but the upcoming Accord will leapfrog it. And the new Camry is so stately looking. The Saturn offerings are decent, but they are heavy and stuck with pushrod sixes. Where's the 4cyl? Once Honda releases the Accord diesel, no one will buy the Saturn sedans.

    How about trucks? GM's trucks are "new", but the engines and trannies are carry-over. The new Tundra is state-of-the-art. GM also lacks a decent compact-ute. Meanwhile, the CR-V is superb.

    How about minivans? A real tragedy. GM's minivans have always been underpowered engineering abominations. GM left that game with its tail between its legs.

    Luxury cars? Cadillac is indeed a bright spot. The new CTS is competitive and desirable. Anything else offered by Caddy can be bought more cheaply at the Buick store.

    GM does the Corvette well. But even that overpriced flimsy car has an interior that belongs in my mundane and banal Olds Alero. The Camaro excites, but it's too late to the party and lacks a 4cyl to capture the female buyers. The new crossovers are fine but they guzzle fuel.

    GM isn't "on the offensive". Rather, GM IS offensive.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Does GM offer a decent hybrid sedan?

    I beg to differ as I think the Saturn Greenline is quite nice. :P

    The Astra won't be much better.

    How do you know. Every review I've seen for it has been very positive. :confuse:

    Once Honda releases the Accord diesel, no one will buy the Saturn sedans.

    That is yet to be seen if americans will buy diesel cars in large numbers like you thing. I agree the new Accord, is sharp. It is by far the best looking Honda brand car in the company's history and if Acura, can top this with the TL it would be quite a feat. ;)

    How about trucks? GM's trucks are "new", but the engines and trannies are carry-over. The new Tundra is state-of-the-art. GM also lacks a decent compact-ute. Meanwhile, the CR-V is superb.

    Well the 6-speed unit from the Denali and Escalade will be in the 08's from what I read. The 5.3 V8 has only been around since 99' so it's not all that old. :confuse:
    GM's truck and SUV sales compared to imports like the CR-V isn't really a comparison is it. ;)

    How about minivans? A real tragedy. GM's minivans have always been underpowered engineering abominations. GM left that game with its tail between its legs.

    Perhaps but the trend was shifting torwards CUV's and where's honda ? :P

    Luxury cars? Cadillac is indeed a bright spot. The new CTS is competitive and desirable. Anything else offered by Caddy can be bought more cheaply at the Buick store.

    It can be baught at the Buick store. Wow, you don't know GM, products very well. Where's the Buick STS with RWD ? Where's Buick's version of the CTS, Oh Okay the Lucerne and DTS, are a bit a like. ;)

    Buick, builds a Escalade, SRX, XLR, man I'd like to know where and how much ? :confuse:

    GM does the Corvette well. But even that overpriced flimsy car has an interior that belongs in my mundane and banal Olds Alero.

    Where's your honyota lavish imports that compete with the Corvette ? let's see the Acura NSX, has bee out of production for what 3 years and was virtually the same car since it was introduced in the early 90's with the same output and you are going to knock progression. I guess Honda, left with their tails between their legs. When was the Toyota Corvette last made ? Mid 90's and they left with their tail between their legs as well. :P Some how that Corvette, had enough buyers to stick around and is ranked the #1 sport car sold in America. :P

    The Camaro excites, but it's too late to the party and lacks a 4cyl to capture the female buyers.

    It's better to be late than be a never been to the party like honyota. Where's there pony car ? huh, huh, huh, ?????
    At least Nissan, has made a attempt with the 350Z. ;)

    The new crossovers are fine but they guzzle fuel.

    They don't guzzle any more gas than you honyota's. The new RDX, comes to mind with it's cute ute size and get as good as gas mileage as GM's Lambada's with 3.6 V6's with 35 more horses and car 2-3 more people. :P

    GM isn't "on the offensive". Rather, GM IS offensive.

    Well in this market where Cheverolet out sells all of Toyota, I'd say GM, is still on the "offensive"

    Toyota, is #3? behind Ford, in this country. Sure world wide sales they are barely #1 but it's not like it's a landslide like some of you wanna make it out to be. I also read this morning that Honda's profits have dropped 20%. Sure if you are a anti-GM, fan you can aplaud GM, got knocked of it's pedestal. However saying they are finished pre-maturely is just crazy. I an many others still think GM, will be #1 again in do time. ;)

    Rocky
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    1487: How can you predict the car will not find buyers if you dont know anything about the car? I think thats a fair question.

    My concerns were about the image that the Pontiac brand carries, which is a handicap in the market segment where the V-8 powered models will compete.

    As for why Chrysler and Dodge succeeded - one, they didn't have the negative image that Pontiac has, and, two, Dodge has a steady stream of truck and SUV customers who were at least willing to give the Dodge brand a chance. Pontiac doesn't have this customer base.

    1487: Its common knowledge that Saturn added models. I am confused as to what big secret or conspiracy you feel you have exposed. Saturn's lineup had two vehicles only two years ago.

    But you skipped that part when talking about Saturn's "20 percent sales increase."

    1487: If you are older you probably have more experience with cars. Not sure how that is relevant but you may be 100% correct.

    Not necessarily, and it is relevant, because someone with experience with cars would not claim that the build quality and high-speed capabilities of a Hyundai are equal to those of a BMW, or that Audis and Acuras do not make good sport sedans.

    1487: If you think the G8 is going to flop that is your opinion, but dont make assumptions about it's price, features and capabilities that are totally off base.

    And don't make assumptions that I said it will be a flop. I said it has a serious handicap in its selected market with the Pontiac badge.

    1487: Its apparent you are not a C&D reader because they make it very clear that real sports sedans should be RWD.

    Oh really?

    I'm looking at the January 2005 issue right now...where the Acura TSX is proclaimed "best sports sedan" in the magazine's annual "10 Best" issue.

    In the January 2006 issue the Acura TSX is once again proclaimed "best sports sedan."

    In the October 2002 issue, the Acura TL finished third in a comparison of $35,000 entry-level luxury-sport sedans - ahead of the rear-wheel-drive Mercedes C320 and the Infiniti G35.

    Perhaps you need to do more reading. You can borrow from my collection of back issues. ;)
  • mrbizness1mrbizness1 Member Posts: 93
    The Camaro excites, but it's too late to the party and lacks a 4cyl to capture the female buyers

    What kind of female buyers want 4cyl cars? Everyone female I know wants power under the hood.

    The new Camry is ugly and looks like a Corolla from 25 feet away. They both look like their from the late 40's or early 50's.
    The Saturn Aura will be a winner and comes with a standard 224hp v6. What difference does it make if its a push rod motor, (I'm not sure if it is)its a family sedan not a sports car. That line is right out of Consumer Reports.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    ...the Camry V6 received optional ESC in 2002, and the 4-cylinder did in 2005. Alas, it wasn't easy to get in 2005 on the 4-cylinder, so mine doesn't have it.

    My 2007 Pontiac G6 V6 rental from Las Vegas did not have antilock brakes or traction control -- no warning lights in the dash and I tried the brakes hard in the snow at high elevation (not at 90 mph like our A3 pilot!) -- didn't get that familiar pulsation in the brake pedal.

    But it did have alloys and a sunroof! ;)
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Well you sure rent a bargain basement model. :blush:

    Rocky
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Well...that's how Alamo had it equipped, and it was the only car available in the "midsize" line at the airport. At least it wasn't the 4-cylinder.

    When I made the reservation online, they said I'd be getting a G6 "or equivalent." BTW, I don't remember if it was Alamo or not, but one of the companies offered Camrys, but these were in the "premium" class for a lot more money.

    I avoided the companies using mainly Chrysler products, fearing I'd get last year's Sebring (or this year's, for that matter)! :P
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Yes and no. The i4 engine doesn't belong in New Camaro, if it is truly that large as the show car. The 3.6 V6 would be perfect for the car. What I would say would be a better sports car would be the Solstice Coupe show car, with the i4 or small V6. No, I doubt many women want a lot of power, though they are individuals just as men. Probably the total head count for those wanting the largest V8 is going to lower than is the males choice of V8 power. Of course if some women prefer power and it adds to total count then I guess we have enough preference for monster power. My best guess is something like 20% need for V8 production and 80% for V6 IF you had a 3.6 V6 with 260HP to 300HP range. Considering gas mileage and very good HP, the 3.6 V6 would be a good choice. The i4 is not enough grunt for this too large car. As for looks, it is no way near a Corolla. And the 1940' and 50's cars were, I would say, a little different looking :blush:
    than the New Camaro. Guess you were joking. :)

    The Aura XE is OK. Drive the XR and it is more of a kick. The DOHC engine mated to the 6 sp. with paddle shift is fun to drive. Wish they could bring the cost down on that one, and just drop the old OHC mated to the 4 sp. It would improve the image, and resale of the Aura line. As for car reviews by Consumer Reports, they have a different perspective on the car world. I like to use the annual report to view the reliability data mostly. The reviews are OK to get a different perspective on a car. I usually read several different reports on cars to compare, and then do my own testing, which in the end is most important. I mean to say, if they like the product, but you, the buyer thinks it is inferior, why would you buy it.
    Loren
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Well then I guess you had no choice. :P

    Rocky
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    You said:
    People will buy good vehicles regardless of what the brand USED to stand for if they like the vehicles enough.

    Then you said
    The Phaeton was competing in a price class that VW had NEVER been in before.

    Based upon this logic, people must not have liked the Phaeton enough, because they would have bought it regardless of what VW USED to stand for. It wasn't the VW badge. Right. Got your point.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    What "important" features are found standard on the Accord that cant be found on competing vehicles?

    A Honda engine.
    A Honda badge.

    Perhaps not important to some, but important to enough. This is why even if GM's cars are equals, it's going to take some time. Reputations aren't ruined in one year and they certainly aren't regained in one year, either.

    I do admire quite a bit of the progress GM has made recently. If they keep it up their reputation will be a lot better in five years.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Perhaps not important to some, but important to enough. This is why even if GM's cars are equals, it's going to take some time. Reputations aren't ruined in one year and they certainly aren't regained in one year, either.

    Ahh, but it has been a couple years and things are changing!

    The publics mind is changing. Sure there will be some who will take a bit longer but it will change with the great changes going on at GM.
  • jerrywimerjerrywimer Member Posts: 588
    R&T shows 300C (SRT8) at 66.5 for 700ft slalom vs 66.6 for BMW 3. Other misc GM cars in R&T: Cad STS-V at 65.8, Chev Cobalt SS at 66.9, GTO (2005 model) at 64.1, G6 GTP at 64.2.

    Wow. That's gotta be a blow for those that don't consider the lowly Cobalt worthy of the SS moniker because it's a tiny FWD. It is ahead of ALL of those other "worthy" performance cars, regardless of their power-to-weight or driven wheels.

    This is an example of why I feel that GMs doing what it can, but that it's going to be a long hard road. Even its good, competitive (or better, as the Cobalt SS's numbers above prove) product is discounted without really any consideration by the large unwashed masses who've been conditioned to expect less from the domestics than the import brands. So they see something like that Cobalt on a lot as they drive by, and even IF they're searching for a compact performance car, most just keep driving..

    I think GM's newfound focus on quality over quantity, profit over market share, and more realistic MSRPs over incentives is the right way to go. Getting past that perception hurdle would go a long way to solidifying the turnaround and stabilizing GM's condition permanently. Even so, there's still other things that can be done, and need to be, to keep positive momentum, not the least of which is dealing with profit-sapping from excess capacity, medical and retirement costs, and UAW related expenses in general.

    So yes, I think it will work. I just don't think it's going to be easy. GM is trying to make all the right moves though. Now it's up to the UAW and the buyer to do their part.
  • jerrywimerjerrywimer Member Posts: 588
    You say you'd like to see GM standardize their options list the way Honda does. No thanks.

    While I agree that it's a pain to be forced to get a bunch of things you don't want just to get the one you do, it's a reality of life with mass production on the scale we see in the automotive business today. Small niche players and low volume, high prestige, high profit brands can afford to let you have that Burger King "Have It Your Way" hand-built car. The rest have to make decisions on what are likely to be the most popular options and attempt to come up with a reduced number of ways of packaging them. This lets them standardize the lines somewhat, making the volume they need built manageable.

    While I'd love to see ALL the options checkable independently on the order form, it's just not practical. But I also don't like Honda's method- have one or two relatively basic option packages, then make everything else "dealer installed". That last part is where I object most.

    For example- I actually took the time to check out a Ridgeline in the Honda showroom before ordering my 07 Avalanche. I'll admit I was already 90% set on the Av, just for its flexibility. But I wanted to give the Ridgeline as much of a chance as I had anything else. Being the car nut I am, and more importantly, as anal as I tend to be about researching things before putting money down, I was already pretty well informed about what was what and from whom for the rest of the truck and SUV options that might fit my needs. But the Ridge was still relatively new and I didn't know much more about it than what I'd read online, here and at electronic mags' review sites. I wanted to see it first person, check out the pricing, and see the options lists for myself. So that's why I found myself in the showroom. I won't get into my personal feelings about the design, fit and finish, materials quality, etc. for it, as those aren't important for my point. What is important is that in order to compare apples-to-apples as much as is possible in cases like this, I did what I could to select the same or similar options to what I was considering ordering on the Avalanche. Quite a few of those items were dealer installed options, and after tacking THAT cost onto the cost of the RTL Ridgeline I actually found myself ABOVE the cost of the LTZ Avalanche equipped the way I wanted (never mind that there were one or two things I couldn't even get on the Ridgeline at the time).

    Point? "Dealer installed options" run cost up in a big way over factory installed options. GM is learning this too though. Hence the reason behind all the GM 20" wheel options for their trucks and SUVs, or the ton of "accessories" available on the GM accessories web site (not in the options list for the vehicle, but addable at time of sale as a "dealer installed" option, and covered by warranty). This is becoming a very lucrative area for manufacturers AND dealers, so it's smart. But as a buyer I'd just as soon take the option factory-installed if I can. Somehow it's usually less expensive to take it AND a few things I may never really make use of than to be able to get just that ONE thing added by the dealership.
  • holdenguyholdenguy Member Posts: 145
    No more stupid gooseneck trunk hinges in Holdens.
    The G8 has these neat little strut things outside of the trunk area.
  • holdenguyholdenguy Member Posts: 145
    Astra is a great little car.
    Been selling very well here for years.
    They have a wide range of engines,
    Normal petrol, turbo petrol and turbo diesel.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    In my area Saturn dealers have a wide range of Auras, including barely optioned XR models for under $26k. It sounds like your particular dealer just lacked inventory. The Aura isnt even all that expensive with all the options included so it's not like the price jumps from $25k to $30k with a few options. YOu can get an Aura with leather and sunroof for under $26,500.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    your entire post reveals that you have nothing but cotempt for GM and you are somewhat off base on your facts.

    "Does GM offer a decent hybrid sedan? No. Meanwhile, Toyota has stolen the entire market with its Prius. "

    Aura greenline is on sale now.

    "Does GM offer a decent subcompact? No, it imports a mediocre offering from Korea. Meanwhile, Honda offers the nimble Fit, Nissan the Versa, Toyota the Yaris and the new Scions. "

    I'm no aveo fan but its outselling the Fit and selling about the same as the Yaris. The public seems to like the car.

    "Does GM offer a decent compact car? Sorta. The Cobalt is ok. But the Civic is superior. The Elantra beats the Cobalt on price and features. The Ion is dreadful. The Astra won't be much better. "

    Ion is no longer being made. The Astra is a well regarded small car in other parts of the world and one of the best selling cars in Europe.

    As for midsize sedan, GM makes several that are competent including the Aura, Impala, G6 and Lacrosse. The new Malibu looks good as well.

    "How about trucks? GM's trucks are "new", but the engines and trannies are carry-over. The new Tundra is state-of-the-art. GM also lacks a decent compact-ute. Meanwhile, the CR-V is superb. "

    The Escalade, Suburban and Denali have a 6 speed auto that isnt carryover. The Equinox isnt quite a compact ute but its in the same price range and offers a nice package. The new Vue will on sale within weeks and it looks to be superb in its own right.

    "Anything else offered by Caddy can be bought more cheaply at the Buick store."

    You cant buy an Escalade, SRX, XLR or STS at a Buick store. Your point makes no sense.

    " The Camaro excites, but it's too late to the party and lacks a 4cyl to capture the female buyers. The new crossovers are fine but they guzzle fuel. "

    what pony car has a 4 cylinder? The 350Z doesnt even have a four. The lamda SUVs get better mileage than the Pilot, ML350, Q7, CX-9, etc. How in the world could they be considered guzzlers with best in class mileage? Only the highlander four cylinder can beat them in mileage.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "As for why Chrysler and Dodge succeeded - one, they didn't have the negative image that Pontiac has, and, two, Dodge has a steady stream of truck and SUV customers who were at least willing to give the Dodge brand a chance. Pontiac doesn't have this customer base. "

    That statement alone shows you cant be taken seriously. Chrysler and Dodge have ZERO appeal to most import owners. Whatever appeal they do have comes from the RWD cars. Chrysler's brand image is just as bad as Pontiacs right now.

    "Not necessarily, and it is relevant, because someone with experience with cars would not claim that the build quality and high-speed capabilities of a Hyundai are equal to those of a BMW, or that Audis and Acuras do not make good sport sedans. "

    Anyone who reads car magazines and understands physics knows that RWD cars generally make better sports sedans. The only thing you have going in your favor is the slalom speed of a select few FWD cars and the slow slalom speed of the GTO. YOu believe that that is enough to prove FWD cars are indeed great sports sedans. Acura has only recently got into the sports sedan game, the previous TL was more of a straight luxury car and posting mediocre handling numbers. The TL is a great effort and may be the best handling FWD sedan out there right now. Even the TL cant keep pace with focused RWD sports sedans though.

    "I'm looking at the January 2005 issue right now...where the Acura TSX is proclaimed "best sports sedan" in the magazine's annual "10 Best" issue."

    C&D used to break their 10BEst down into categories based on size and price. I dont think the TSX was best sports sedan in the world, it was best at that price point. I dont think C&D has ever proclaimed the TSX superior to the 3 or 5 series.

    "In the October 2002 issue, the Acura TL finished third in a comparison of $35,000 entry-level luxury-sport sedans - ahead of the rear-wheel-drive Mercedes C320 and the Infiniti G35."

    A comparison test is based on more than perforance so the TL can place ahead of RWD cars due its price and design features. Didnt it lose to two or three RWD cars in a more recent test? Is there a reason you are quoting results from 5 years ago with the last generation car? C&D and others have made it clear the TL is held back by FWD even though its a nice FWD luxury car. This is just a fact. read the initial road test of the TL when it debuted in 2003.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    GM sold a record 2.26 million cars and trucks around the world in the first quarter of 2007, according to preliminary sales figures released yesterday. This represents a 3 percent increase over last year. Here are the highlights:
    >20 percent increase in the Asia/Pacific region
    17 percent increase in Latin America, Africa and Middle East region
    6 percent growth in Europe

    the offensive continues. Unfortunately Toyota is doing better!
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "A Honda engine.
    A Honda badge. "

    Two things that mean nothing to me, that is a sorry justification of the superiority of a brand. Honda engines are no better than comparable engines from Toyota, GM or even Hyundai these days. The only thing Honda engines do better vs some engines is rev higher. The current GM DOHC V6 revs higher than the Honda 3L V6. Honda does have low volume engines that rev high such as the 2L in the Civic Si but that means nothing to me, just means more noise really.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    This morning at the Shanghai Auto Show, GM unveiled a second propulsion system for Chevrolet Volt, a concept vehicle that could eliminate trips to the gas station. The Volt was first introduced at the auto show in Detroit as a battery-powered, four-passenger electric vehicle that uses a gas engine to create additional electricity to extend its range. This second variant uses a battery and a fuel cell for up to 300 miles of petroleum– and emissions–free driving. It can also be plugged in to a standard household outlet for an additional 20 miles per charge.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    800 HP Biodiesel Impala on MTV
    In celebration of Earth Day, be sure to catch the show that will prove going green can be extreme! Tune in to MTV’s “Pimp My Ride” on Sunday, April 22, at 1 pm Eastern time, as Mad Mike, Xzibit and special guest California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger work with GM SPO, GM Powertrain, GM Environment and Energy, and Allison Transmission to spruce up a 1965 Chevy Impala with a one–of–a–kind alteration: an 800 horsepower Duramax biodiesel engine. To learn more about biodiesel and other flex fuel options, visit www.gmability.com. For more about the 1965 “Pimped” Impala, visit www.gmblogs.com or www.think.mtv.com.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "the offensive continues. Unfortunately Toyota is doing better! "

    Unacceptable explanation. Try saying it like this: "Toyota raced past GM in first qtr sales due to the success of its environmentally friendly cars while GM sales continue to stagnate as it continues to rely on gas guzzlers in this age of high gas prices". That's the way the media reports it and it makes Toyota sound much better so lets stick with it. Every single thing I read about Toyota's success ties that success to hybrids and small cars and yet when you look at Toyota's monthly sales statements hybrids and small cars (other than the Corolla) are not their top sellers. The Prius is very successful but the rest of Toyota's hybrids are small volume. I believe the Tundra outsells all of Toyota's hybrid models except Prius (the two are close) and yet the media pretends Toyota sells nothing but gas sippers.
  • holdenguyholdenguy Member Posts: 145
    Some of you have mentioned RWD vs FWD in the handling.
    Wheels magazine in this months issue,(sorry I can't post the story) did a comparo on the 4 Aussie sixes.
    Holden Commodore rwd, Ford Falcon rwd, Toyota Aurion fwd(This would be your 3.5 Camry) and the Mitsu 380 fwd.
    In the handling stakes both rwd were a clear winner, with the Holden on top.
    The Toyota was bloody terrible according to the testers.
    About sales, yes overall Toyota has beaten GM here for about 6 months. The Corolla was number one, but now the Commodore is back as No1, as it was for years.
    You guys are getting the v6 Commodore, I don't know what model it will be based on. Funny that they are calling the V6 car G8. We have one here that is called SV6, which looks exactly the same as the V8 version SS. Only diff on appearance is that the trunk spoiler is a little lower.
    The SV6 comes with a 5 speed auto that you can operate manually if you want. It has a 190kw(262hp) 3.6 engine. Also has Bosch esp and traction control.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Do you know how much of that 2.26 million was in the United States? Over 1 million would be good; less that 1m for the quarter would indicate that GM was treading water or shrinking here.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Funny that they are calling the V6 car G8.

    We already have a G6, so we couldn't call it that. Maybe it could have been a G7?
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Actually the GX has little to do with engine size. The small vehicle with a 4 is the G5 (2 door Cobalt) and the G6 is available with 4 and 6.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    910,000 but that is up .5% retail from last year. As I have said GM is greatly increasing sales elsewhere but is biting the bullet here and dropping huge fleet sales. Is holding steady in the US and increasing elsewhere good enough?
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    910,000 a quarter would put them on pace for 3.64 million in 2007. Ouch. Still, continued fleet sale reductions will help the bottom line and if retail sales do show consistent (even if modest) gains that may be enough to keep GM from simply abandoning North America.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    GM is trying out new names. The Cadillac line up is moving to 3 letter names, which are supposed to follow some convention, but the names seem contrived to me. Pontiac seems to be going for a single letter (G), followed by a number, not quite sure if there is a convention or not. The G6 is a FWD compact car, while the G8 is the RWD from Australia. The 6 and 8 don't mean anything regarding the engines as far as I know.

    GM has introduced new names for cars when the old names seem outdated. For example, Cadillac started with letter names, then moved to a number with the Model 30. Then when the V8 was introduced, some new numbers were used. They went to series numbers at some point, which is what was used after World War Two, but then they introduced the name de Ville. The DeVille name lasted a long time.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    If GM is entitled to say 15% of the market, then anything more than 3 million is good. I think that the reduction in fleet sales is beginning to help the used market. My Seville seems to be worth about the same as it was last fall as a trade in.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    "Toyota's hybrid models except Prius (the two are close) and yet the media pretends Toyota sells nothing but gas sippers."

    A lot of folks rap on this again and again (and again!). I think the media is focusing more on diversity of products than on total numbers, and here some small amount of credit has to be given to Toyota. They have 3 models making 40 mpg or more in highway rating. Honda has one, the Civic (with two trims making 40 or more, including the hybrid). Nissan, Ford, GM, and Chrysler have none.

    If you look at the models GM is releasing this year, you will be hard-pressed to find one that makes a '40' anywhere in the EPA portion of the window sticker.

    Corolla is the second or third best-selling car in the country, year after year. That's a lot of high-mileage small cars getting out there.

    I wait with GREAT interest (baited breath, some might say!) to see how much improved the fuel economy will be in the new hybrid full-size trucks. I don't expect great things from the Aura GL as GM's hybrid system right now doesn't produce a large increase in fuel economy rating (but at least it doesn't cost as much as others' hybrid systems).

    Toyota is currently selling about 740,000 Yaris, Corolla, and 4-cylinder Camrys per year. That is a MUCH larger number than the sales of FJ, Sequoia, 4Runner, and Tundra annually (the total of which is running about 320K per year right now). There is at least A GRAIN OF TRUTH to the media reports.

    Also, GM's sales mix is still at least 60% trucks, 40 cars, right? Whereas Toyota still leans the other way.

    I am hoping that GM doesn't wait until the technology in the Volt is ready for production to come out with a new and improved version of its hybrid system, or a high-mileage 50-state diesel to replace it.

    OK, I'm putting on my flame-proof suit. ;-)

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    Toyota and Honda do indeed have a few cars that get 40mpg under current standards. I am tired of hearing this as proof that they should be excused for their SUVs and pickups. For 2008 we wont have to hear that because Corolla and Civic will be in the 30s on the hwy with new standards. Civic sales arent even up this year so that kind of proves that demand isnt super high for high mileage compacts. I think the Pilot is up and civic/Accord are down at Honda thus far.

    I dont feel like checking your sales numbers for fuel efficient Toyota cars but you need to add more to your gas guzzling Toyota list. Every Toyota pickup and V6/V8 powered SUV (Lexus too) should be included. If I'm not mistaken one of Toyotas best successes this year is the RAv4 which doesnt even offer a hybrid version. Tacoma, Tundra and Rav4 sales are doing well as are Lexus SUVs. Toyota's ever growing lineup is helping them expand sales in the US and hybrids/small cars are only a part of that success. Toyota's biggest and most significant product this year is the Tundra, not a hybrid or small car. The Yaris and Scion models dont come close to Tundra sales. The Corolla and Yaris get great mileage and that is nice, but the Yaris is hardly a volume product. As for the four cylinder camry, it's mileage is about average for that type of car. The Malibu and G6 (and Optima, Altima, Accord, etc.) are right there with the Camry 4 in efficiency. If we are to believe that Toyota's success is due to gas mileage than we might as well leave the regular camry out of the equation. The Pruis, Yaris, Corolla and Scions should be where the real gains are being made. People are buying more Toyotas period, regardless of mileage. Toyota SUVs/pcikups are usually at the bottom of the pack in terms of mileage but they are still selling plenty of them. The media likes to simplify things and they do that by attributing Toyota success to fuel efficiency and GM's struggles to reliance on SUVs.

    People make a big deal about GM's reliance on SUVs or SUV/car sales mix but neglect to mention that GM doesnt force customers to buy more trucks than cars. If people want a car from GM they can surely buy one. GM makes the best trucks in the market and thus they capture a large share of the truck segment. People who buy Tahoes can by Equinox's, HHrs, Cobalts, etc. if they so chose. The success of GM trucks doesnt mean that GM has no fuel efficient offerings. It just means more consumers are willing to consider GM when looking for a new truck than when looking for a new car.

    "If you look at the models GM is releasing this year, you will be hard-pressed to find one that makes a '40' anywhere in the EPA portion of the window sticker. "

    I believe the Aveo gets 37mpg with manual.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    If GM is entitled to say 15% of the market,

    ??? No one is entitled to the market. Everyone has to earn it and GM is now a lot closer to 25% than 15%. I think they still have a little more cutting to do in the rental fleet but they are probably almost to the point where they will be at. The rentals have to get cars from somewhere and perhaps the Koreans will take more but with the domestics (not Chrysler) lowering their fleet the prices will go up and the fleets will become more profitable.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Exactly. They have no XR for $24K in stock, less the $1,500 in rebates and special rebates for California. What you found it exactly what I found, no models on the lot. Would be great to have some in base, then another grade or grades higher. They don't. Saturn needs to work on that.
    Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    China may be the key ! Great place to expand sales. I can see GM growing lots of sales outside of USA / Canada / Europe. Interesting how sales are up in Europe. I imagine the good profit come selling elsewhere than USA and Europe. Wouldn't worry too much about Toyota in China, unless the Chinese now like the Japanese more than before.
    Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    I would expect GM plan is to shrink USA sales, expand elsewhere and make a profit everywhere.

    Loren
  • jkr2106jkr2106 Member Posts: 248
    LOL...I have a small anecdote about that...

    Yesterday I was searching for the sales count for each Toyota Motor Corp. vehicle sold in '06 (I had already found GM's) for a Statistics project.

    Anyway, I was using this new online search engine, where a person actually searches for you and everything they returned was about GM sucking all the gas out of the planet and Toyota being green. When I reiterated that I want the number of each vehicle sold, they returned sales data for the prius and highlander hybrid; never mind that Toyota Motor Corp. also offers the Tundra and LX470.

    It's as if the general public genuinely does not believe toyota makes any V8 models. :confuse:
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Aveo is pointless for sales in USA. With the automatic, as most will be sold, it will not match the Corolla or many other small cars for gas mileage. It is basically a Daweo Korean car. Why not buy the Hyundai small car if looking for a Korean inexpensive car and get the longest warranty? Corolla and Civic make much more sense as buys, I think Aveo is gonna be a hard sell -- at least in states where people actually research cars before buying.
    Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Yes :)
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    no you misunderstood, my local dealers have plenty of Auras in stock. One dealer at at least 10 XRs on the lot according to the internet. Few, if any, were loaded.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    Aveo doesnt get best in class mileage. It is much cheaper than Civic or corolla and is has been relatively successful. I guess there are a lot of dumb buyers out there in states where people dont research cars. You fail to understand that mileage is only one factor when people buy a small car. If mileage was all that counted the Cobalt, 3, Elantra, focus, Rabbit, etc. wouldnt get one single sale. The civic/corolla have all of them beat in mileage. The Fit's hwy mileage is worse than the civic and corolla so I suppose its a tough sell as well. Actually, that may be accurate since its selling in small numbers thus far.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Well then, that is a good thing. At around $22,500 net before tax & fees, the Aura XR is quite the value. Are they running any specials + specials as noted in Edmund's you have to ask about or get through an email? Wish they would just lower the price to $22,500 and stock the base models. They would be selling more. Of course, if they can sucker people into buying the XE, with add-ons for $22,500 they do make more money. Cheaper engine and tranny. Problem is the image. It lowers the image of the Aura overall, thus the resale. If they would off the i4 hybrid and the V6 3.6 models only, for price I mentioned, that would be great. And of course have the loaded up ones for those in need of such. Heck, load them to the moon - who cares. But stock the base models. The basic XR has a lot to offer without a lot of stuff to bump the price. It is a proper base package as is.
    Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    The Fit is a funny looking, too small car for most Americans. I am seeing a few Versa cars around here. Funny little thing too, but kinda grows on ya -- good to go the grocery store in. Problem with Aveo is finding a reason to buy it. Is it less expensive than a Kia or Hyundai? Better warranty - not. Then there are the cars like the Yaris, and Scions, with the Toyota brand behind them. IMHO, and once again my opinion, the Aveo is best targeted in other countries as GM goes India, and China and perhaps bumps up sales to Mexico and South.

    I think the Rabbit sells on Euro flavor. The nice interior, and sporty handling are a plus. Safety? Could be the people think it is safer than other small cars. They do a lot of advertising. I would be scared to death of getting an engine which uses excessive oil. Wonder how VW's are doing in that respect today? Any woes on the VW board over oil consumption still?
    Loren
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Of course, if they can sucker people into buying the XE, with add-ons for $22,500 they do make more money. Cheaper engine and tranny. Problem is the image. It lowers the image of the Aura overall, thus the resale.

    What lowers the image? The lower price? What suckers? You medan anybody else but you?
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    GM has introduced new names for cars when the old names seem outdated.

    There was nothing wrong with names LeMans, Bonneville, Caprice, Catalina, DeVille, Eldorado, Allante, Riviera, etc. Lots of good names went on scrap pile. Names were ok, but actual cars with these names started to seem obsolete and outdated.

    Would agree about outdated brand names such as Oldsmobile (name says it is old) and Buick which has an awkward sound.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,113
    There was nothing wrong with names LeMans, Bonneville, Caprice, Catalina, DeVille, Eldorado, Allante, Riviera, etc. Lots of good names went on scrap pile. Names were ok, but actual cars with these names started to seem obsolete and outdated.

    I think the only problem with "LeMans" is that it is just SOOOOO ripe for picking when something does go wrong with the car. I'll admit, when I was a kid, we used to call my Mom's '75 LeMans a "LeMons". And I've used that moniker on my '76 a few times, too! :P
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    The Aura I assumed to be the upper grade to the Malibu, thus no i4 engined model. They should match the engine qualities then of the competition. Having the base 4 speed , OHC model simply lowers the expectations of the Aura being a Camy, Altima, Accord competitor model. As far as paying as much for the XE as the XR with some added little things to the car, yes, sucker deal. If the base model, or very close to base was sold with say one add-on, then the $1,500 off as secretly available in California, yeah not too bad a deal price wise. It still lowers the car down to something more dated. Not a bad car, but no longer in the competition. I guess dollar wise, if it sold for $19K, that is not so bad. Pity those paying over $22K for XE models. For GM, it is a higher margin. Short run, perhaps OK. Long run, there goes Saturn image.
    Loren
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