General Motors discussions

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  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    You may want to have a chat with them about those GM Goodwrench Chinese jackstands they sell at Wal-Mart.

    Are you serious ? I didn't know they made GM Goodwrench parts in China ? I guess I never took a close look at them and just assumed they were made here. That is sad. :(

    Rocky
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,753
    After reading more about China people putting melamine into the foods to make the test higher for protein just to make more money on dogfood, e.g., I don't think I'll buy Chinese stuff in the future.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Perhaps....However their are a lot of positive posts as well. All my comments about Kia, products haven't always let's say been positive. I however respect the man for coming on and if we choose to join in the chat we owe him our courtesy and respect. ;) Bob Carter, was the main reson why I joined edmunds.com because I thought it was wonderful that the fans of various brands could get the oppertunity to chat live with a top guy. :)

    Rocky
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    how many years it will be before Americans will accept Chinese-made cars with the same level of content as they do Chinese-made everything else.

    Depends on whether it is "hidden" (Chinese Dodge Hornets sold in the U.S. with no cue to the fact except a location of manufacture sticker, widely ignored by buyers) or "out there" (brand name on the dealership is Geely or SAIC).

    And of course, if the first Geelys are just as reliable as Hyundais for half the price, I think quick acceptance will be widespread (and there goes Hyundai, and Chrysler, and...?)

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Yeah it's a little scarey. Old Yellar dropping dead eating dog food. Dog Food use to be safer than human food. My buddy who is a farmer told me about two-weeks before this episode to buy home grown food from the local markets. I kinda blew him off and bam, this happened. I never realized we import that much food from china. I thought it was only general merchandise items. Now I take a look now to see where the stuff is made. :surprise:

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    nippon, you very well could be right. If GM, starts to import cars from China, I will likely jump on the Toyota or Honda bandwagon. I refuse to buy cars built there. :mad:

    Rocky
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Chinese Dodge Hornets sold in the U.S. with no cue to the fact except a location of manufacture sticker

    It would also show up in the first character of the VIN, but almost no one pays any attention to those either.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,249
    You'd think they'd be used to that by now. What, should they only "preach to the choir?" Or should they, perhaps consider just taking the heat in the hopes that their positive attitudes may convert one or two people?

    I've gotta tell you, there is one company that swayed my opinion of their products from no-way-would-I-ever to perhaps-I-should-at-least look based on their customer appreciation attitude at a chat.

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  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    What ???? I always thought Virginia, was crowded.

    I remember those cars pal !!!! They were designed a little bit like the Reliant? my aunt had. Brain fuzz.

    -Rocky
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Parts of Virginia (NoVa, Hampton Roads, Richmond, and Roanoke) are crowded and there are some occasional pockets of urbanization outside of those four, but the rest of the state is comparatively empty which makes driving fun.

    Reliant was Plymouth's K-car.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    You do make a very good point. My opinion is taken quite serious by many friends, co-workers, family, when it comes to cars. I have learned a lot on here and pass it along to them. Just imagine what a top guy like Len Hunt, will have as far as impact on people. It sure helps. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Okay I was right. My great Aunt had one. ;)

    Rocky
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Rocky, I think it's in the cards. A decade from now, most of GM's vehicles sold here will be made abroad, the UAW has just forced them into a corner (and I have no position at all on who is "right" and who is "wrong" in that battle, I am just talking about the financial reality). I think a lot of production will be in Canada, which I understand you don't consider to be "abroad". I think more will be in Mexico than it is now, and I think some cars will come from China, with Buicks to be the first GM domestic brand to be Chinese-built. Assuming, that is, that Buicks remain for sale in the U.S.

    Oh, and I forgot to mention Korea - I think more and more small cars and crossovers sold in the States under domestic brands will be built in South Korea. Rock, do you object to Korean-built like you object to China-built? I am just curious.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Kia sounds to me like Chia and I was always concerned about letting those out in the rain.

    Now back to the serious. Is Hyundai company not getting some serious overlap of same product selling Kia and Hyundai pretty much same market cars and SUVs? Wonder if they could not simply convert all the dealerships to Hyundai. Are there that many loyal Kia fans? The dealerships seem to be as rare as Saturn, or even more rare a find, the Mitsubishi dealer. I would think the strength in numbers would help. I am afraid that Kia is gonna be lost along the way. Smaller numbers of say a dealership for Range Rover makes sense, but for an econo car line, I can't see it surviving.

    As for Saturn, I would say since it will be getting an import now from Opel division, one could stretch out the thinking here and go all the way to Holdens / Pontiac and merge Pontiac into Saturn..... or maybe not, since they are often right next door.
    Loren
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    The Riv has the supercharger and thus all aluminum top and I have not changed the SC oil, just keep it topped off. I'm going to change the coolant this summer to help with the gasket life. Next expensive thing it will get is a new MAF sensor for $175, so I can get another mpg or two as gas is going up. I’m on borrowed time on the original belts, struts, mufflers, cat, a/c, hoses, sensors, gaskets, trans fluid, timing chain, cv boots, coolant, water pump, and alternator. If some of them go between 160 and 200k, I’ll be thankful they lasted that long in this dirty, frozen, salty environment, and being driven 70 mph nearly full time on some of the most beat up roads in the Midwest that includes I-70 clear through Indy as part of the 46 miles each way commute.

    The’84 Camaro was rattle and squeak free at 15 yrs old. I kept it in great working order and only had a small oil leak. The interior and exterior looked 2 years old when a friend bought it from me for $2800. It was losing it’s garage spot to the new Astro. It had a new a/c comp and clutch, the top line interior and rally wheels. The guy who gave my friend $4k for it 4 yrs later had a race ready 350 ready to drop into it. He wanted it because it was lightweight, no power opts and had the factory F41 susp. Most V8 Camaros in general are destroyed in 5-7 yrs because of abuse, accidents, etc so it is hard to find a near show quality one 18 yrs old that is ready to give up it’s carb’ed 2.8 V6 pushrod anyway.

    The similarity of the Riv and the Camaro is that in maintained cond, at 15 years old and bookoo miles they will both bottom out at about $2800 worth, except the Riv will be a roomy, sub 7 second 0-60, loaded, much more comfortable car with air bags and ABS. The Camaro had 60k mi on it in it’s first 3 years, but after that it had a pampered life in comparison to the daily grind the Riv gets.

    The Astro and Camaro were base level vehicles that have done very well. I'd wager that even my ext. cab Silverado LS at $23600 plus tax was close to a after nego. new Tacoma price if equally equipped with autotrac 4wd, posi, the V6 engine, bedliner, tow pkg, all power interior, chrome bumpers, 16" alloys and 31" trail tires. I'd of been laughed off the Toyota lot if I offered 24k for a Tundra with all that back then.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Well Rocky I am with you on the small car issue. If I buy a small vehicle for running errands it will not be driven on the freeways. Too many big vehicles. Even the Corolla is bigger than a Camry was a few years ago. The current Camry is way bigger than our LS400 Lexus. Not better, just bigger. I am not interested in anything much smaller than an Explorer sized SUV for traveling the highways. If they quit making truck based SUVs I will just keep an older one in good shape. I think GM will carry on the tradition. It is their best products.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Go read the 2009' Genesis forum to find your answer. Okay, I'll just tell you pal. I was on the South Korean, bandwagon at first. I did some investigation late one night about two-weeks ago. I read where union folks were jailed trying to organize for better working conditions. I can't and will not support any country which violates human rights. I will not support business's from country's that support or allow those human right violations to occur.

    Follow me. The day GM, imports chinese cars is the day I'm all done. I will expect the UAW, to go down in a blaze before they allow that to happen. I'm very surprised they are allowing Aveo's to made in South Korea, and be imported here. My last hope is that the UAW, will organize Toyota, and I can openly support Toyota. You thought I support GM, just wait until the day the UAW, get's behind Toyota. I will be punch drunk on Toyota Kool-Aid but until GM, back stabs us I will continue to support GM, even though Lexus, makes automobiles like the LX 570 that blows away anything the Escalade has to offer. ;)

    -Rocky
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,753
    The small, cracker-box sized cars that were very economical, cheap, thin, few options were the way the foreign brands gained a hold here in the US. They sold to the people who did not want the gas hungry, large US brands for commuting. People didn't want to spend as much to buy and just wanted cheap to and from work cars. They found them useful, better than anything US manufacturers offered for that purpose.

    The US manufacturers ought to have been building such cars all along to regain the younger people who would buy those cars. Give them a satisfactory experience at the dealership and in the product and regain some market in the future, 5, 10, 20 years out.

    The Aveo is one such car. I know satsified owners. Offering more, varied choices would be GM's push to the future for success.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,753
    >there is one company that swayed my opinion

    I don't know which companies have been at the chats and I gotta know which company did it. My first guess would have been Hyundai.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Will you stay loyal to GM if they start building Buicks in China and shipping them to the US market? At which time the American Revolution becomes the American Evolution.
    BTW, what does that mean, Chevy, an American Revolution? Better than the Brits? ;)

    I will go check out the new Saturn Opel hatch when it hits the shores. My guess is that more imports from Europe and Australia will be accepted in the US - GM market than would be the China cars, which would impact the image of GM in a negative way. This is NOT to say China can not build any product it sets out build. It is full steam ahead in China, and they do have some serious momentum - and money in the bank, no doubt. Someday, is sure to come when their cars start selling in volume in the States. But really, a GM / China car seems off base, since we have been told over the years that Chevy is like baseball, apple pie, and well you get the point. And I may add after all the patriotic advertising we see today. This is our country states the song.

    I think I will buy a Corvette before I ever buy a Chery. I did look at Hyundai Sonata and Tiburon. Both not bad little cars. Would rank the Sonata below Aura and Accord however. But they are sure getting there compared to a somewhat slow start. I am thinking South Korean cars will be accepted before China makes. Could be wrong. A walk through a Wal Mart may be enlightening. Perhaps I am in denial.
    Loren
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    How could some young guy be satisfied driving a Chevy Aveo ???? I would spend my money on a Carolla and get more power and better fuel economy not to mention a better made car. The AVEO, is a worthless POS IMHO and I don't understand who is buying these cars ???? :confuse: I only know one owner and he's a co-worker.

    Rocky
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,753
    > some young guy be satisfied driving

    He drives his Aveo to work and leaves the Corvette at home or his wife drives the DHS to work.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I pretty much agree with you Loren. ;)

    Rocky
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Could just be somebody paying for a license to put a recognizable name on their cheap product. I've seen all kinds of familiar names on crappy products: ABC Sports on cheap watches, several famous designer names like Oleg Cassini and Pierre Cardin on all kinds of unrelated stuff like cheap telephones and luggage. If I were GM, I wouldn't sell the Goodwrench name to any shady Chinese manufacturer to sully.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    imidazol97,

    I'm sorry a Aveo, ruins GM's image. I'd rather them clone a yaris or fit than make the Aveo. I can't understand how anyone with sense buy a Aveo, over a Carolla. The Carolla, is the greatest fuel efficient automobile ever made IMHO. ;)

    Rocky
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If you want GM to succeed they need to build cheapo cars for the masses. Aveo is a good car for the masses. I would not get in one, that is just me.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Lemko,

    What are we going to do if our buick's get made in China, and they import em' ???? What if Cadillac, is next ?
    Are you going to jump ship like me if they do this ????

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Well what's wrong building a fuel efficient Carolla fighter ? That thing get's in the mid 40's hwy. I even thought about buying a used one as I never here of any problems being connected to them. I don't know much about them as far as engine choices go but I'd buy a manual for a work car.

    Rocky
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I'll either jump ship to Mercedes or Lexus or do all my future car shopping at Carlisle (antique and classic cars).
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Biggest car I've ever owned was a 1975 Cadillac Sedan DeVille and the smallest is my 2002 Cadillac Seville STS. To me, the Seville is a small car and I refer to my girlfriend's LaCrosse as the "small Buick."
  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    Will you buy a GM product when they start making them in Australia and shipping them back to the states? How about making them in Beligum? How about making them in Korea? In Mexico? In Canada?

    It's a little late to expect Americans to worry about 'foreign constructed' GM cars, even if they're from China.

    After all, aren't you the one that rejects Toyotas and Hondas and Nissans built in the U.S. as 'not domestic' because the profits (you say) all go to the home country?

    I understand the sentiment, and I'm not crazy about the Chinese, either, but this particular horse left the barn long ago.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,249
    Bingo.

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  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I guess I look at China, as a national security issue. We are feeding our potential enemy and that is something no other country we trade with (good or bad) will do to us based on present info. No other country spies on us and sends moles to our country like china. Their mission is to gather intellegence.

    I support the Japanese automakers building products here and buying from our suppliers. I wished all their cars were made here. If the day comes when the UAW unionizes Toyota, I could be a buyer of their products. A lot of union members and "buy american" types like myself might drink a full glass of Toyota Kool-Aid even though it's contains traces of poison. ;)

    Rocky
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Are you serious ? I didn't know they made GM Goodwrench parts in China ? I guess I never took a close look at them and just assumed they were made here. That is sad.

    How about a bunch of parts, as in a whole engine. How sad is that. Doesn't GM import engines built in China and put them in Equinoxes and Torrents? How soon before GM starts shipping Chinese Buicks, and maybe Cadillacs to the US. When that happens, maybe traditional American brand buyers in US will switch to American made Toyotas, Hondas, and Nissan to be loyal to the workers putting them together here in the good old USA.

    Someone on this board a while back said that the Lenovo laptop, formerly IBM Thinkpad, is pretty good quality. Have read elsewhere that Chinese telecom industry is getting good quality and is undercutting traditional big-name, old-time suppliers. Just a matter of time before US telecoms might start considering Chinese telecom suppliers.

    Don't the Chinese universities graduate many times more engineers than the US? What does that mean for the US?
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    But really, a GM / China car seems off base, since we have been told over the years that Chevy is like baseball, apple pie, and well you get the point.

    What about the hot dogs. Maybe it will be Chery, ping-pong, chow mein and almond cookies.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    A decade from now, most of GM's vehicles sold here will be made abroad,

    Wrong
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Doesn't GM import engines built in China and put them in Equinoxes and Torrents?They did because they shut down the 3.4L plant here in the states and still needed the engines for a low volume usage. 3.4 in now gone.

    How soon before GM starts shipping Chinese Buicks, and maybe Cadillacs to the US.

    Never Buicks nor Cadillacs (OK, never say never but at least not in the next 10 years.)
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    OK, I hear you, we'll have a little gentlemen's bet. ;-)

    In the last 20 posts, I have actually discovered something very intriguing to me today. Many of you folks that support GM in a do or die fashion only support them because they provide jobs for UAW workers, not because they are the home team. Some of you would turn on GM immediately if they started selling Chinese cars in the U.S. Why has the Aveo not already irked you?

    Don't forget, GM's success in the 50-year timeframe may depend to a great extent on their ability to compete in China, so you buying a Chinese-built Chevy here in the States today would not only provide profits for the "home team", but would also provide revenues for the Chinese GM operation, which could be plowed back into the Chinese market to increase GM's success there.

    And here's another thought: it would probably pay off in spades for GM to eliminate all production in the States at UAW plants in that same 50-year timeframe (probably many years less, in fact). The UAW contracts allow the company no flexibility. And what's more, GM could do that by moving production fairly cheaply to Canada and Mexico, NOT TO MENTION all the new models that will be coming across the Atlantic and Pacific. A global company like GM simply can't afford to be tied down as much as the North American operation currently is.

    Hey, you can go out today and buy a $40,000 VW built in Bratislava, where workers are paid whatever the market will bear in the former eastern bloc. You can bet those folks are glad of a job no matter the wage. That is just the nature of the market reality in which GM finds itself. Until we can figure out a way to advocate for all those workers around the world not being paid a living wage, we should avoiding shooting our own domestic industry in the foot.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    The US manufacturers ought to have been building such cars all along to regain the younger people who would buy those cars.

    They tried to, but after a decade or so of Chevettes, Fiestas, and Omnis (all derived from European-market cars), the domestics just threw in the towel and rebadged Asian cars.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    And Kia and Suzuki, among others, were happy to oblige! Those cars could take a beating and still return 40 mpg or more.

    lemko: Seville? Small? Whew! ;-)

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    And what's more, GM could do that by moving production fairly cheaply to Canada and Mexico,

    Canada is not a cheap place to build vehicles. Cost structure is not that much of a difference. Biggest benefit to the Oshawa plants is the CAW is much more willing to work with management there to cut cost and build the best quality built vehicles. Oshawa 1 and 2 consistently win best quality vehicles at GM and over many competitors (laCrosse vs. Camry) AND win awards for most productive plant in NA.

    OK, I hear you, we'll have a little gentlemen's bet

    There will be no importing of cars from China for Buick and Cadillac is what I said. Now in 10 years the importation of a small, inexpensive Chevy/Saturn could happen. China has a long way to go to get their other cost (non manpower) down and other production issues. We tried to import an entire interior to put in an american built vehicle (from a vehicle built in China also) and the cost delta with all factors taken in account just did not make a business sense. Sources here are doing a great job of increasing productivity and cost reduction and quality improvement. That is why so many OEM's are getting so much product from here.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Something I just thought of... was Nissan the only large Asian automaker that never got into the rebadging game here?
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    GM 80%
    Ford 79%
    Chrysler 73%
    Toyota 48%

    Now that is an american company!

    http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070429/BUSINESS01/704290599/10- 14
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Absolutely, absolutely, I understood you the first time, and hopefully we can still have our little gentlemen's bet...

    ;-)

    As for the Canadian move, I did not mean that Canadian production was cheap, just that the move itself would be cheap: production already exists there, transportation of goods to and from there is relatively cheap, the labor pool already exists as does infrastructure.

    I am sure that building new plants in Canada carries few if any extra costs for GM over refitting or building new plants inside the U.S. But there is one crucial difference between the UAW and the CAW, and you have already pointed it out: CAW is much more willing to work with management in cost-cutting and quality improvement.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Well, there was the shared Quest/Mercury Villager for much of the 90s, but I forget if that was originally a Nissan or a Ford. I think it was a Ford.

    But tell me what you're thinking: what Honda model was a rebadge? Do you mean to include other Asian automakers, like when the Passport was a rebadged Isuzu? I thought you were talking about domestics.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • smittynycsmittynyc Member Posts: 289
    If the Free Press is going to allow reader feedback on news articles, they really need to pay someone to moderate the commentary.

    There are two utterly disgraceful comments that have been left up for nearly 24 hours. Whether or not the comments reflect the views of the Free Press is irrelevant.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    My gosh! See, comments like those on the freep's page are why I will never move to Michigan. ;-)

    And look, among Toyota's actually built here, the domestic parts content is 76%, almost on par with GM and Ford. When 2007 is all on the books, and Toyota has managed to shift another 100K of its Camry sales from imported to domestically produced cars (in Indiana), the overall numbers will shift some. Toyota has to work on building more plants here, as indeed they are already doing apace.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    I forgot about the Quest (which was a Nissan Prairie in Japan). The Rover cloned from the first-gen Legend was sold here as a Sterling.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    You left a part out.

    "Toyota Motor Corp.'s North American-built cars and trucks had fewer imported parts on average than those built by Chrysler Group. However, Toyota's overall average of domestic parts fell because of a surge of vehicles imported from Japan."
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    You left a part out.

    I do not understand. What part did I leave out? Wasn't that comment in the article?
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