General Motors discussions

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  • holdenguyholdenguy Member Posts: 145
    Sure thing.
    The turbo one has a lot of torque steer, it pulls to the left hard. They are a fun car to drive, and good value as well.
  • holdenguyholdenguy Member Posts: 145
    You may be able to buy an Astra with a diesel there soon.
    We have them here now.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Well that is the 5th time I have been wrong on these forums ;)

    The RDX and MDX are made here. Kinda hard to read the data sheet that I have :blush:
  • jkr2106jkr2106 Member Posts: 248
    The only thing I'm unsure about for SAAB is the FWD 9-3 and 9-5. Everyone harps on Acura for being a luxury brand with FWD, and I dont think SAAB should go down that road.
  • holdenguyholdenguy Member Posts: 145
    Yeah it's a little scarey. Old Yellar dropping dead eating dog food. Dog Food use to be safer than human food. My buddy who is a farmer told me about two-weeks before this episode to buy home grown food from the local markets. I kinda blew him off and bam, this happened. I never realized we import that much food from china. I thought it was only general merchandise items. Now I take a look now to see where the stuff is made.

    And you guys won't even buy our wheat, but you import food from China? Crazy.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Agree they need to be AWD but the cars they are based on are FWD Opels I think for the next generation.

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Mr. Lutz (62vetteefp) will I get my Buick Velite convertible any time soon ?

    Check your data sheet please for that info. :blush:

    -Rocky
  • jkr2106jkr2106 Member Posts: 248
    Really?

    What like a premium Saturn?
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    We don't need your wheat as we make too much ourselves and thus export some of it. ;)

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I believe somebody posted a story on here or I read it somewhere in the past. The past being like last year. ;)

    -Rocky
  • jkr2106jkr2106 Member Posts: 248
    Actually, I think that looks too much like a Pontiac; like a current model. That GTO is fire though!

    ps--I'm not really married to the G8's styling, but at least it looks like a new model.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Well they should of just left the Holden grill intact and passed along the savings to the customer. ;)

    -Rocky
  • holdenguyholdenguy Member Posts: 145
    The Aussies's are buying mostly an american made car with the Holdens.

    Wash your mouth out young man.

    I am upset over the importation of automobiles from Australia

    Get down on your knees young man and beg forgivness for that comment.
    You will be truly blessed once you get your bum behind the wheel of the noble carriage that will be the V8 G8.
    Remember, G8 is sms slang for Great!
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    If GM were to simply abandon manufacturing cars here altogether and importing them from China, they'd be history. A GM car would be no better than a toaster with a once-respectable nameplate on another Chinese-manufactured piece of junk. Would it matter which one you bought? Rival? Procter-Silex? GE? What's the difference? They're all crap!
  • jkr2106jkr2106 Member Posts: 248
    I might have been okay with that :shades:

    What do you think of that firebird/Camero-rebadge?
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Wash your mouth out young man.

    It's true 65% of the parts are mostly american and some canadian made. Is their something wrong with that ?

    Get down on your knees young man and beg forgivness for that comment.

    holdenguy, I think you need to ease up on the Foster's mate. :P

    You will be truly blessed once you get your bum behind the wheel of the noble carriage that will be the V8 G8.

    As it sits now with only 362 hp. and the weight of the G8, it's a bit to slow for my taste. 502 hp that's a little better. I'd rather drive a CTS which meets the G8 in aceleration and matchs it in handling and it gets 30+ mpg in 6th gear. ;)

    Remember, G8 is sms slang for Great!

    They will be fine sport's sedans. Miles better than the Grand Prix, but until they bring the HSV model over I will pass and they need to fix the snout. ;)

    Rocky
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Pretty much all of them saw the writing on the wall a long time ago. They saw how hard they did not have to work. How many would go to the bar at lunch and get drunk. How stupid it was to need 5 guys to do a one man job. I watched my 2nd shift coworkers do 8 hours of work in 3 hours so they could go to the bar for 5 hours and then come back and check out.

    Incredible. Did this really go on at GM? Where was management?

    Remember people in past would say they hoped that the new American brand auto that they ordered was not assembled on a Monday or a Friday or before a holiday.

    Reminds me of an old, old British movie probably made in the 60's with comedian Terry Thomas. It was about union people goofing off on the job in a factory, continuously bringing up petty stupid issues with management, work stoppages for the most inane reason, etc. Don't know how much of the movie script reflected actual conditions. But, didn't unions help bring down British industries?
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    A GM car would be no better than a toaster with a once-respectable nameplate on another Chinese-manufactured piece of junk. Would it matter which one you bought? Rival? Procter-Silex? GE? What's the difference? They're all crap!

    Lenovo laptop supposedly is good quality. Technology was purchased by Chinese company from IBM. Mr Coffee coffemaker we have is made in China and does very good job. Recall getting it on special sale at Target for about $15. How much would it have cost me if it were made by a UAW worker?

    If GM starts importing Chinese Buicks to US, I have to believe that GM management and engineers would have closely scrutinized all processes and outputs and results to make sure that end product of car is equal or better to what is produced in US, Mexico or Canada. Guess we would have to trust GM on this.
  • holdenguyholdenguy Member Posts: 145
    As it sits now with only 362 hp. and the weight of the G8, it's a bit to slow for my taste. 502 hp that's a little better. I'd rather drive a CTS which meets the G8 in aceleration and matchs it in handling and it gets 30+ mpg in 6th gear.

    I think you will be pleased with the mpg the V8 G8 will get, anyway, your petrol is cheap, so don't worry about it.

    holdenguy, I think you need to ease up on the Foster's mate.

    Bundyberg Rum is my poison of choice.

    It's true 65% of the parts are mostly american and some canadian made. Is their something wrong with that ?

    This warrants further investigation, I'll look into it.
    Meanwhile, say seven Hail Mary's and watch Clarkson from TopGear driving a Monaro for 3 hours.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    The GTO was 65% North American content because the engine and transmission and their accessories were shipped in, rather than being produced in Oz. I would imagine the G8 would have a lower number, the drivetrains being locally sourced for the most part.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    You won't like'em if you are standing too close when calling Canada another state. I would just dial 911 before doing so Rocky. :sick:
    Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    If they implement a national health care plan in USA, they should also include a VAT tax to start sweeping up all the uncollected taxes. With a VAT, it doesn't matter if the labor is paid in cash on the side, as when items are bought, the tax has already been cooked into the product.

    I don't know how Canada collects their taxes, but like you said, no free ride. Since the workers are paying Canadian taxes, wouldn't they be paying most of it themselves? But that is only a guess. It must save GM some money, and the cars are built well. Oh, and they sell there too. :)
    Loren
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Ford? Concerned about badge engineered Mercurys? Surely you jest! :-P

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    Sure.... yup. Transferring the burden of paying for health care will fix everything for GM. It works in Canada, right?

    Well, I'm not sure that "What's good for General Motors is good for America"

    Let's see how Canadians say that Canada is doing:

    "Canadians spend more on taxes than on food"

    The average Canadian family earned $63,000 in 2006, with nearly 45 per cent of that going to taxes.

    Just over 35 per cent was spent on food, clothing and housing.


    "Access to a waiting list is not access to health care"

    One [Canadian] Supreme Court decision may have done more to change health care in Canada than three major reports and a first ministers conference that ended with a $41-billion infusion into the system.

    On June 9, 2005, the high court struck down a Quebec law that prohibited people from buying private health insurance to cover procedures already offered by the public system.

    "Access to a waiting list is not access to health care," two of the justices wrote in their decision.


    I do not think that we should be discussing National Heath Care here, but I do think that in the context of Rockylee's advocation for this as a help for GM, it's necessary to point out a few things:

    a. National Health Care isn't going to save a lot of money for the middle class. It'll simply change where the money goes - instead of paying the insurance company, you'll pay for your health care through taxes.

    (1). If it is said to be cheaper, it is unrealistic to expect that a healthcare system that costs less will provide the same level of care.

    b. In relationship to GM, one should be wary of the potential unintended consequences. As a middle class guy, my net income is likely to go down if taxes are increased to pay for the UAW's and other workers health care. That means I'll have less disposable income. Of such situations are recessions born, or at least declining sales of heavy appliances and cars.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Agree they need to be AWD but the cars they are based on are FWD Opels I think for the next generation.

    Not sure what you are getting at but EPS II is supposed to be FWD and AWD. This will be the next LaCrosse, malibu, Aura and the Saabs.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    I told you before! Money does not grow on trees and the Velite would be a low volume product and there are a heck of a lot of other high volume projects we need to work on like the Volt and small cars that get 45 mpg but nobody really wants. :P
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Incredible. Did this really go on at GM? Where was management?

    Management (foremans) in the plants were very aware. They were just happy back then to get the work out of them. Remember they worked 3 hours to get the output that the union had agreed to for 8 hours. So they met quota and the the Plant manager was happy. Quality? Oh well. I still remember the old guy pushing me aside and throwing L6 cranks on the inspection machine and moving a mile a minute. Did they meet spec? No but the worst were caught.

    BUT it is different today. Quality is wanted by both sides and the issue I was talking about today was the skilled trades (and my relatives are skilled trades). They know it has to change but others still want to have skilled electricians there to change light bulbs.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Who says Chinese have poor quality? The GM supported plants and suppliers are doing great. They just need to be sure to put the money into it, not go for the lowest possible price and have a skilled Engineering team to be there. That is why lots of my friends are over there right now helping them put out good product for their market.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    "Well they should of just left the Holden grill intact and passed along the savings to the customer."

    Absolutely correct. All they needed to do was make it left hand steering and put "Pontiac" everywhere it says "Holden."
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    If they do make parts over there to ship here, GM would also have to be ever so careful that the first parts worked, and follow through each and every day to assure people that the parts remain highest quality. If the first batch, or first years products suck,

    Chinese built auto parts have been coming over here for years and are used in all the OEM's vehicles.

    Almost everything sold in this country is made in China and no one cares.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Ford, Toyota, GM sales drop. I don't think this is what they had in mind with catching up with Toyota....
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Yes, GM would like to see more volume but times are tough and it is only going to get worse guys. GM has taken their pension funds out of stocks for a reason. Get the hint.

    This is going to sound harsh but I don't mean it facetiously. Many studies have shown that trying to time the market is a fool's game. Very few people can beat market indexes over long periods of time. I'm surprised that GM's pension managers would be trying market timing. Perhaps that says something about the quality level and competence of the staff. Competence has been a problem at GM in the past in their approaches to strategic business decisions.

    Perhaps the pension managers are another symptom of the BIGGER issue - why has GM had such poor abilities to make intelligent decisions? Who are they putting in these roles? Somebody (maybe an awful lot) of the management are not earning their keep in keeping the company healthy. It's been that way for far too long.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Buy and hold is what you are talking about as better than being out of a down Market. Well, this is a new era, and let me tell ya, when stocks are overvalued and the Market is due to correct, being out IS a good thing. Just because the average Joe can not tell when this is going to happen, or you miss out on a couple of bucks to the upside, doesn't mean that it is not a very good time to leery of the Market and mostly in cash. Like the housing market, the larger the bubble the bigger the pop when it explodes. I am not going by charts and any voodoo, but rather how few stocks meet the criteria of being undervalued enough to be a safe buy. All too many fully or near to fully valued for a safe pool now to swim in. I guess I would agree that Market timing, if this means in one day and out the next is totally wrong. But the larger danger signs are too big not to see.

    I hope they are the right stocks in that pension fund, to weather a downturn, or two yet to happen this year, or they did go mainly into cash.
    Better to be shy by a percent or two, than the take a good seven to ten percent dump within a few days or weeks. A money market smaller gain for pension funds may look pretty good in the next days, or months. I doubt if buy and hold is working at all this decade. And yes, you should beat the market averages most years being in and out at the right time. If not, get out of the game.
    Loren
  • edmundsrocksedmundsrocks Member Posts: 1
    and ship manufacturing to China?
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Guess you missed the article I posted here a couple days ago. GM Pension made $10.9 BILLION in the market last year.sorry that was in 2005 Earned 13%. Greatly out earned the market. Perhaps they are not so imcompetent? The pension plan is now over funded for the future and they felt they should take their gains and be conservative. I completely agree with market timing but I lost millions when the dot coms collapsed because I did not pull out, even when I knew things could not go on. Just too greedy I guess.
    http://money.cnn.com/2006/04/17/news/companies/gm_loomis_fortune/index.htm

    For 2006 they made $9.6 billion and are now $17.1 Billion overfunded.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/09/AR2007040901262.- - html
  • lemonhaterlemonhater Member Posts: 110
    Rocky your post sums up a lot of what people think is wrong with GM and the domestics.

    “How could some young guy be satisfied driving a Chevy Aveo ????/”

    Well if the AVEO had better fuel economy he could be satisfied driving a car that was as eviromentaly friendly as possible. Not all car buys are men. A women could be happy with a reliable new car instead of a worrisome used car. A person could be happy to take what little cash they have and get something new in the color they like instead of scrounging for a reputable used car. And mind you a used corolla isn’t that cheap. It would need to be about two years old or driven rather hard before it is around the price of a fully loaded AVEO. There are a lot of reason to buy a sub-compact or compact car. Fuel efficency, easy parking low cost.

    ‘I would spend my money on a Carolla and get more power and better fuel economy not to mention a better made car. ‘ The Corrolla is dull and this is from someone who likes Toyota better than GM any day. I haved liked other versons of the Corrolla but the current gereration only looks good with the S option and I am mild about the interior. Also why should people have to spend more money to get a better made car? ALL of a companies cars from the smallest to the largest should be well made. The small little sub-compact doesn’t have to be sporty or have lots of power but it should do it’s job of well. This hurts GM big time because while buick and Cadalic earn better reliablity than Toyota, Chevy isn’t.

    The kid who bought the GM subcompact and had a bad experience is not likely to go an upgrade to something bigger and nicer from GM. They are going to go beep GM and the domestics. I know that is how I feel about Ford. If my mom’s 88 tempo had not had a Freon leak that was never fixed, despite numerous attempts. I might have a nice opinion on Ford. Instead every time I hear the name Ford, I think of the Escort that had a flaw that would have caused the engine to burst into flames. And even worse, I think about that beeping tempo with the airconditioner that was out of Freon every summer(not counting the times when it ran out before the end of summer). Needless to say after roasting multiple times with no air, not counting breakdowns, and minor annoyances of that car, I have developed a real hate towards Ford and will never own one in my life.

    The AVEO, is a worthless POS IMHO and I don't understand who is buying these cars ???? I only know one owner and he's a co-worker.

    If GM wants to have a chance of coming back and dominating the car market like it once did, this had better not be true. People remember their first cars, and I suspect that most people who buy used cars are less brand loyal than thoose who buy new. If the Aveo isn’t cheap and reliable then why should these young buyers trust GM when they are about to buy something bigger?

    As for why. Well some people seem to buy the AVEO because it is GM (like you would if it were larger and made in the USA) and for no reason what so ever. Others might like it’s styling better. Or got a good deal.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Didn't you mean to say Chery buy Chrysler and manufacture cars in china?

    Loren
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Retail Sales Up 3.6 Percent On An Adjusted Basis, With 15 Models Showing Retail Sales Increases; Daily Rental Sales Drop 36 Percent Retail Sales of Full-Size Pickups Up 6 Percent On An Adjusted Basis, Led By The New Silverado and Sierra
    Chevrolet Impala, Pontiac G6 and Saturn Aura Contribute To 15 Percent Retail Sales Increase On An Adjusted Basis For Mid-Car Segment; Aveo Drives Economy Car Segment Retail Sales Up 27 Percent On An Adjusted Basis
    GMC Acadia and Saturn Outlook Fuel Significant Retail Increase In Mid-Utility Crossover Sales


    Toyota dropped 4.3%.

    Toyota's U.S. unit today reported an April sales decline of 4.3 percent compared to a year ago, despite double-digit gains by its RAV4 compact SUV.

    Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. Inc. sold 210,457 vehicles overall in the month, down from 219,965 in April 2006. The company's Lexus unit recorded its best-ever April, Toyota said, selling 16,317
  • smittynycsmittynyc Member Posts: 289
    Loren, being out of the market can be the worst possible thing if you're investing for the long haul.

    James Surowiecki had a great column not too long ago where he quoted some research which found that 95% of the S&Ps gains in a decade occurred on something like 0.5% of the trading days (note: I am making those figures up, but they were something similarly eye-popping).

    The vast majority of people simply aren't equipped to successfully pop in and out of the market. Lots of the pros can't do it, either.
  • smittynycsmittynyc Member Posts: 289
    Americans already pay a comparable amount on taxes -- 40% of overall income as opposed to 45 for the Canadians.

    http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/Advice/YourRealTaxRate40.aspx

    I would assume that if the US went to some form of universal health care coverage, we could expect our overall marginal tax rate to inch closer to 45% while we'd spend less on health care.

    Incidentally, surveys show that a majority of Americans support universal care, even Republicans, and that they would not mind assuming a greater tax burden to provide for it.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    lemon,

    What is the best Toyota Carolla generation for power, fuel, economy, build quality if you are a expert on them. I'm gonna be looking for a good used work car and this one keeps lighting up in my brain. ;)

    Rocky
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    when stocks are overvalued and the Market is due to correct, being out IS a good thing.

    Of course, conceptually. So when is the next correction? The problem is that nobody can reliably predict when this will occur. Many who jump out of the market miss the relatively few periods of large increases. For each person who times the market correctly, many more do it wrong. Those who do it once can rarely do it on an repeat basis. Countless studies have demonstrated this is the case. The entire financial industry (some have called it "financial porn") is built around convincing people that expertise will get them a better return due to clever picking.

    See a few links:
    http://www.axaonline.com/rs/3p/sp/5017.html
    http://www.theskilledinvestor.com/wp/archives/40
    http://www.investorsolutions.com/v2content/book/ch24/ch24.cfm

    One quote:
    Traditional attempts to add value through management are almost impossible. Today, the weight of the evidence indicates that managers are unable to add value through either market timing or individual stock selection. In fact, attempts to actively manage equity portfolios have reliably increased both cost and risk (variability of returns) while lowering average returns!

    OK, enough of the off topic items, I'll let it rest. I do think GM's recent product offensive is mostly in the right directions, and I do hope it works!
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    they felt they should take their gains and be conservative.

    I'd call that rebalancing, not the same as market timing. :P
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Both look great. I was and always have been a Trans-Am fan. I grew up watching Knight Rider, thus I had no choice but to want one. ;)

    K.I.T.T. :shades:

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    fezo, glad you see it my way. ;)

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Well isn't some Opels made on EPS II ????

    What I was getting at pal, is that I believe Saab, can become successful if they take a page out of the Volvo/Audi playbook. The question was asked earlier if Saab, could continue to get a way with selling FWD luxury sport sedans ?
    I think id they make their high-end models with AWD w/ 4WS they might just have enough distinguishment to steal sales from other car makers not to mention create a standard in the process. I'd love to see Saab, become a success as I would consider buying one if they were cool enough and performed very well and of course offered lots of gadgets and exceeded everyone in safety. ;)

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    62, you probably have access to GM finacial info and you lost millions ???? :surprise: If I was in your position I would watch what GM, does with it's money and adjust accordingly. Oh well that sucks. I hope you made some back. :sick:

    -Rocky
  • jkr2106jkr2106 Member Posts: 248
    Does 4WS = four wheel steering?

    If it does that may be cool. :shades:
    Also, I'd like to see SAAB go in the direction of the Aero X concept: small displacement+turbo=fast (2.8L twin turbo V6 capable of 400hp) AND in styling. Maybe all AWD b/c I'm still weary bout that AWD.

    Cadillac could focus on replicating the Sixteen Concept.

    Hummer alrealdy has a very strong brand image.

    Buick I would like to continue with the Enclave/GMI Lineup direction.

    Pontiac :confuse: I'm okay with the G8 in the front (unlike everyone here) but I hate the back.

    Saturn's just going to be Opel's and that's nice. So eventually the brand should follow the direction of the GT-C(?) concept.

    GMC I really want to see differentiated from Chevy; either more upscale (Denali models only) or work trucks (no heavy duty for Chevy, GMC only).

    Chevy...
    I really like the volt's bold styling. I know the new malibu has that double grill thing going on too, but somehow the volt looks much crisper. I think that Volt body should be lifted and dropped on the next cobalt and have the new Impala follow that direction.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Yes, 4WS= Four Wheel Steering. Saab already uses this feture the guys say on this site in the 9-3 I guess.

    I think I'd like to have all those cars from the GMI line-up. ;)

    The rest of your line-up I like also :)

    -Rocky
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Been doing it since 1990. You keep an eye on individual stocks of course. Those which look good at the right price will somewhat let ya know when the Market is due to correct, though it is by no means an exact science. Not saying it is time to be completely out, if you have some really well price stocks, but on the average there seem to less and less cherries to pick. And it seems like an even better shot at getting a really good deal on stocks may be coming up as the economy may have a case of the hiccups right now. When Toyota and Honda car sales are down, the housing market is tanking, while the stock market is at its high, I would not bet on the party on Wall Street to continue for too long. Am I surprised that it keeps steady to up -- yes! As for those marvelous up days, did they also count the breathtaking down days which are also few in number?

    Considering those people losing their homes, it is any wonder that car sales are as good as they have been. Perhaps the repo man will come visiting next. Should be interesting to see how the housing and overall US economy is doing between now and the end of Summer. So far, so good.
    It is pretty hard to predict how much of a correction is ahead, and if it is the big one, or if the third correction of the year is the big one. Anything like the NASDAQ worst correction ever, and we all may throw in the towel. That was amazing indeed. Always wondered about why a company was worth money when it made no money, yet had a .dot com in the name. :surprise:
    Guess that is why buying quality is the best policy, for the long haul.

    The vast majority of people have not taken any time to learn about investing, and should not be in the Markets. And most of those funds people buy seem to make the fund managers rich and the people, well I suppose they make a little. I would say only a few funds impress. Actually, most do less than buying the Market.

    As for the pros managing a lot of money, they are saddled with a lot of money to move around, and thus, like the GM money managers, it is hard for them to get in and out without their action swinging the price. They have it pretty tough. If they did 13% gain in 2005, that ain't so bad. Trying to sell a 100 shares of MSFT say, compared to 10,000 is a bit harder to do without the price dropping. Well I don't know the volume, nor follow MSFT, but ya get the point.
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