Apparently the other US companies that are having retirees kick in hundreds per month were not so stupid as to get themselves locked in to unsustainable benefits promises.
Well if we would take the greedy executives who make unsustainable promises to it's shareholder's to the firing line we wouldn't have half of the problems we have now. The cost of healthcare has sky rocked because various reasons but as Lou Dobb's guest said last night the cost to absorb just 10 million illegal aliens into out society will be $2.5-$3 trillion dollars. More than double that if you believe their is more like 20-25 million. More than enough money to pay for National Helathcare for a very long time.
Don't see that the US taxpayer should have to bail out GM through our politicians in DC. GM will have to work themselves out of their mismanagement (on many issues) in past decades.
Well your current president has spent billion subsidizing a oil industry already makeing $10+ billion a quarter so I believe if some in the government doesn't want national health care they better draw up a plan to control sky rocketing costs. GM nor the UAW ever thought the price of health care would quadruple when making these promises. That's not including the cost of pharamceuticals
And please don't use the old "tax the rich" nonsense - if we taxed the rich at 99 percent of their income, it would only be enough to fund the federal government for about six months. The middle class will end up paying those higher taxes.
So your against rolling back the Bush tax cut for people making over $200K. What the answer grbeck. Just telling retirees to bite the bullet isn't a solution. You are sounding like Bill Ford, "I'll cut my way to profitability, but I have no real plan" I also know somebody else that thinks that way and his non plan hasn't worked either and has costed this country $400 billion more than planned.
But someone still has to pay for those benefits, and the federal government can't just print more money to do so, without risking massive inflation.
Why can't the federal government ???? They have been operating this way once again for about 6 years.
Costs will rise, unless cost containment measures are taken. Since most of us have no desire to pay 50 percent of our income in taxes, something will have to give.
Would out taxes go up some ? You bet ya but more like 35% instead of 50% but wouldn't it be worth the extra taxes to have good jobs like GM, once again in this country ? I also think it's worth it to have health care as at the current rate I don't know if average folks like my self will be able to afford it in 20 years. :surprise:
I find it odd, that when a company complains about healthcare costs skyrocketing the conversation generally degrades to who (employer vs. employee) should pay and how much, and not on the insurers who demand double digit increases.
Here in RI, the 2 major insurers, Blue Cross RI and United Healthcare are supposedly nonprofits, yet nobody complains that the former CEO is driving around in a $120,000 Mercedes coupe, bought and paid for by B.C., or the millions in loans the board approved and forgave. Now, they want to sell their HQ for 20 mil and build a high profile office for 250+ mil. United just caused an uproar for wanting to send $34 mil in PROFITS to their parent company yet rates still skyrocket.
grbeck noted new drugs, such as Viagra being on the market, yet I wonder where the disgust is at the Pharm. co.'s for advertising these meds to the public, and not just doctors, especially during high profile times like the Super Bowl.
It seems to me that Co.'s like GM get bashed for paying this king's ransom, the UAW gets bashed for demanding GM pay it, yet nobody criticizes the healthcare industry for foisting these increases on us, all while making money hand over fist.
Well I don't know what the current incentives are but I'd be willing to bet by summer they might look pretty good on a Impala SS as sales will slow down in anticipation of the 09' RWD model.
cooterbfd, is right. We talk about it but the media doesn't attack it like they would if it was GM, charging the prices. If GM, ran the health care industry it would be featured in Consumer Report's and would be graded with black circles, red circles. :P
Yes, but not the high profile arguments we see between people who get healthcare and people who pay for it. It is the easiest yet most disengenuous argument for a CEO to make that they pay 100% of their own healthcare, so we should pick up the slack for ours.
Nevertheless, as I look in my local paper and see people crying the blues about how our town workers get their birthday as a paid holiday and paid benfits, they cry "go work in the REAL world and see what you'd get". It's no use to tell them to Unionize, fight for your rights, and get what you deserve, because the sad part is that most of those companies would pack up and go to China or India before the union got in place (you can't ship road repairs overseas ). So, it becomes a "sour grapes" style argument, and "we the people" are at one another's throats. I'd be willing to bet that Mr Watanabe chides Mr. Wagoner all the time about healthcare costs, yet they probably laugh together w/ all the other CEOs when they see us yell at one another, with that "I don't get it, so why should you" mentality
My father-in-law says there's gonna be a Revolution in this country. I think he's half right. He sees it as politiaclly motivated, with politicians hanging in the gallows. I fear it's actually going to be a working class one, with the have-nots putting the haves in the noose, while the CEO's laugh their way to the bank.
My father says the same thing but hopefully it doesn't take place in my lifetime.
Well nobody really said much about GM's $62 million dollar profit ? :surprise: Well the good thing is it isn't a loss. However GM, needs to do better. The UAW, needs to help GM, out this contract and Mr. Wagoner, needs to re invest here in the U.S.
Do any of you think a 100% American Made General Motor's car would sell well if it had the right styling. Like if the Cadillac CTS was a 100% American Made, do you guys think it would exceed the sales levels it's projected to hit or have we lost our flag waving patriotic days of the past ? The Silverado try's to play this role but it being assembled in Canada, Mexico, and U.S. that tarnishes it's rep. However it is still nearly 90% domestic content made. It would probably work better with a Pick-up than anything else I think.
rockylee: So your against rolling back the Bush tax cut for people making over $200K.
Rocky, visit places like New York City, Los Angeles and San Francisco. Talk to the people who live there. Check housing prices.
You will discover that an annual income of $200,000 does not necessarily make one "rich" in those areas.
rockylee: What the answer grbeck. Just telling retirees to bite the bullet isn't a solution.
Taxing everyone else into oblivion to ensure that retirees do not have to pay anything for their perscription drugs or doctor visits isn't the solution, either.
rockylee: You are sounding like Bill Ford, "I'll cut my way to profitability, but I have no real plan" I also know somebody else that thinks that way and his non plan hasn't worked either and has costed this country $400 billion more than planned.
And what has the UAW offered?
Pretend that everyone making $200,000 is rich?
Pretend that Congress is going to limit the sales of Hondas and Toyotas?
Pretend that it's still 1965, and GM still controls 50 percent of the market, and can just raise prices to cover the extra costs?
rockylee: Why can't the federal government ???? They have been operating this way once again for about 6 years.
Contrary to popular belief, our federal budget deficit is not currently out of line with historical standards, and our deficit as a percentage of total economic output is actually much better than many other countries, including Japan.
Of course, requiring the federal government to provide UAW-level benefits for everyone will quickly change this picture.
rockylee: Would out taxes go up some ? You bet ya but more like 35% instead of 50% but wouldn't it be worth the extra taxes to have good jobs like GM, once again in this country ?
My taxes are high enough, thank you very much. And Honda and Toyota are adding "good" jobs here, without any tax increase at the federal level.
cooterbfd, the insurance companies "foist" these increases on us for new drugs and treatments because they are paying more for them.
Even if we completely eliminate the overhead generated by insurance companies, health care costs would still increase, because the new treatments and drugs are more expensive than the old ones.
They are more "high tech," and usually more intensive than the treatments they replace.
My taxes are high enough, thank you very much. And Honda and Toyota are adding "good" jobs here, without any tax increase at the federal level.
Well "good" jobs until you get a little older and then the tap from your supervisor comes and tells you "your out of here!!!" But boss, Boss: "Security, this ones giving me trouble" :P
Do any of you think a 100% American Made General Motor's car would sell well if it had the right styling. Like if the Cadillac CTS was a 100% American Made, do you guys think it would exceed the sales levels it's projected to hit or have we lost our flag waving patriotic days of the past ?
Hmmmmm....Interesting. I don't think that it would matter whether the content was 100 or say,75%, provided it was assembled here (N.A.). Now, if it were to be assembled in China, I think THAT would cause an uproar, even if it were 110% domestic. Another reason why I think unionization of a Toyota plant is PLAUSIBLE, because I don't think they could afford the neg. publicity of packing their bags and going home, where conditions are more to their liking.
Having said that, I do think there is room for a more "global" process for GM, where they may be able to import vehicles that aren't mainstream, such as the Aveo and Astra, without taking a "hit" for not building here. In a perfect world (or USA) ALL GM vehicles sold worldwide should be built here, w/ 100% domestic content, but we know that would spell political disaster. I just hope that what comes around, goes around, meaning that if outside the US, people are clamoring for a product sold exclusively here it can be BUILT here and EXPORTED, until such a time that a plant can be converted to build it there.
And Honda and Toyota are adding "good" jobs here, without any tax increase at the federal level.
If they unionized, would you still consider them "good"?
cooterbfd, the insurance companies "foist" these increases on us for new drugs and treatments because they are paying more for them
They are more "high tech," and usually more intensive than the treatments they replace
Agreed, in general. Yet, I wonder, how many of these pharm. commercials cause people to say "hey, I think I have those symptoms" causing potentially unnecessary visits to the PHP. Or even "Gee I'm on drug X, yet drug Y seems to be a better fit for me I'll ask my doctor"-again another potentially unnecessary visit.
I dunno - people in the US still seem to root for good ol' American products, and will even pay more for them if the quality merits the price. For example, I watched a CBS Sunday Morning show on this company: http://www.americanapparel.net/index.html (Warning: people [tastefully] photographed wearing underwear. Do not visit site if you find that offensive)
All American-made cotton clothing like t-shirts, sleepwear and undergarments, and the company is doing extremely well. (all of the models are employees, btw) Are the t-shirts kind of expensive? Yeah, but they're allegedly great quality and they offer a ton of great colors & cuts that you won't find at some of the shops that import everything.
They could possibly teach some other US manufacturers how to make a product that Americans truly want to buy and be proud to say is 100% American.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
check out the consumers list. Very interesting and very encouraging for GM. So much for the theory that domestic car owners or fans arent likely to be on the internet because they are too unsophisticated. I am glad to see the results because it exposes how out of touch with reality Edmunds pro-import staff really is. They will swear up and down they arent biased but they wont even acknowledge good domestic products when they are offered. The Edmunds Most Wanted list had no GM products and only two or three domestics, they didnt even put the lambdas or Vette on the list. I wish I could've seen the looks on Edmunds' staff when they saw GM take so many categories.
cooterbfd: If they unionized, would you still consider them "good"?"
Sure.
What I object to is when employees, through the union, make ever-increasing demands on the company, putting it in a disadvantageous competitive position, and then expect taxpayers to bail out said company.
GM and Ford are not ATM machines. They must generate big profits to survive. Unfortunately, bad management has hurt their ability to generate those profits. Part of that bad management is agreeing to too many union demands.
The UAW isn't helping any by treating the current level of staffing and benefits (not so much pay - Toyota workers make almost as much as GM employees) as though they were handed down by Moses on stone tablets.
I see what you are saying. Just this morning, I visited websites for union made clothing, here in the US ( :surprise: :surprise: :surprise: didn't know that still existed). Prices were good: $35 for jeans, $20 for caps, and $15 for pocketed tees. Yet, compared to the goods you can get at the local WalMart, I would think it's a tough sell, even with a discrepancy in quality. "So what if the $20 jeans at WM last half as long as the union jeans they're $15 cheaper" does anybody notice that when you can get a few years out of casual jeans? I think everybody is punch drunk on the WM kool-aid. BTW I know where my next set of jeans are coming from: good ole USA!!!!
"The Edmunds Most Wanted is simply a list of what the editors like. No more, no less. "
I think that is obvious, and the editors only like imports which is reflected in the road tests. People who are looking to buy cars look to sites like this for advice so when domestics get no respect even when they deserve it you can bet in impacts buying decisions. It's apparent that the people that visit this site hold GM products in much higher regard than Edmunds does which is interesting since most visitors to this site (or at least those that post) have a tendency to be anti-domestic. I think it kind of shows people's opinions are starting to change even if Edmunds' opinion isn't.
What I object to is when employees, through the union, make ever-increasing demands on the company, putting it in a disadvantageous competitive position
Yes, but it's tough for us working class NOT to say where's our fair share when CEO's (Home Depot) are granted $200 mil. golden parachutes for lousy performances. I read an OP-ED piece where large companies such as Circuit City are laying off senior employees, telling them they can reapply after 10 weeks, at a much lower pay. And they have no recourse. Taxpayers have to bail out companies when they are mismanaged into the ground (Kaiser Aluminum) or markets suffer a disaster (Airlines after 9/11) and we have to bail out their pension funds. I have to wonder, if the Southern states diddn't break the bank in tax credits for Honda and Toyota, would they have still built here? I say, yes, because ultimately they sell more cars here because they are assembled here. I think that fact makes the the tax breaks a drop in the bucket to these big companies, yet is still significant to the cities and counties that supported them. I think if we (USA) said NO TAX BREAKS to foreign companies they'd still come here, because they need us more than we need them.
Wrangler jeans are $20 at Wal-Mart and last a good long time. US fabric, made in Honduras.
Since we don't seem to have a handle on how to close the borders of USA, it becomes apparent that a VAT tax is the only one which will work. And funding for national health care would come out of that. Interesting to note that people are concerned about retired auto workers having to pay for insurance when millions of people are paying 100% for insurance. And I may add, plenty of people have zero company pensions. They live on savings/investments and social security. Our current sad state of government is cause for some worry however, once they take over health care payments. Is there anyone that runs for government positions worth voting for these days? Anyone seen studies on the German health care system, where they pay a set dollar amount for health care and you can still use the doctor you want to use -- I think??? Payments must be tightly regulated. Loren
Retirees and healthcare: problem is that these people were promised that years ago and budgeted for it accordingly. Unfortunately they can't go back and do it all over.
Hell, this goes back to my earlier post: here we are having a discussion about who pays for retirement/pensions, and it COULD (though, knowing you from your posts, it wont) as it does between plenty of people degrade into a profanity laced, hate filled argument on these merits, and the CEO's just sit back and laugh, because ultimately, it's these arguments that cause a divide and animosity between workers, and nobody wants to stick up for one another, and they can just do as they please.
As to the $20 jeans, while I know that the clothing industry has been decimated in this country for years now, I think the analogy can still be made: By paying the $35 for the union made jeans, we ensure the job here, not Honduras, and they in turn have more money to spend quite possibly on your goods and services(I know a little over simplistic). There should be NO shame in spending good, hard earned money to pay someone a fair wage for their goods and services, even though we want the best deal we can get (no shame in that, either). I had my shed rewired 2 yrs ago, and got a bill for $1000. I was like :surprise: . How much???? I thought about it, and said OK they were here for 10 hrs. 2 guys*10hrs=20 man hrs. At $40/hr, thats $800. $35/hr, $700. Plus $2-300 in parts, OK. Is $40/hr unreasonable for a self employed master electrician? I don't think so, do you? Does anybody (remember, I live in N.E., high cost of living)??
Like lemko I could not likely afford to buy my own house if I had to start today. It's worth three times what I paid for it.
I will say I've been in it a while - almost exactly 14 years - and I added on, but it would stil be worth almost triple without taking the addition into account.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
By paying the $35 for the union made jeans, we ensure the job here, not Honduras, and they in turn have more money to spend quite possibly on your goods and services(I know a little over simplistic).
Potential customers of GM vehicles should not have to care whether or not the GM vehicle had some amount of union workers doing assembly, making parts at suppliers, etc.
If GM were to offer certain brands/models with exact same specifications, attributes, but priced them $1800 difference, how many on this board would sign on dotted line to pay more. As an example, if 2009 Chevrolet Biscotti Type A had zero union input and Type B had great percent of UAW and other unions' input but was $1800 more, how many here would buy the Type B. Incidentally, pretend that C&D and a popular consumer magazine thoroughly tested both A and B and could not tell the difference.
If you believe the recent JD Power/Detroit News nationwide survey, a sizable majority (think it was close to 70%) of recent domestic purchasers didn't consider purchasing an Asian make for no other reason than it was Asian. I'm not going to knock Edmunds for a perceived failure to kowtow to a retrograde-thinking demographic.
If a domestic compares favorably in a category, I have seen nothing to suggest that Edmunds doesn't call it like it is. And I don't think it's exactly a newsflash that foreign makes stack up pretty well v. domestics when it comes to real-world criteria like driveability, fit and finish, aesthetics, bang for the buck, and resale value.
The folks who are dead-set on buying domestic can research their vehicles at GM.com, ford.com, Chrysler.com, etc. Going by their mission statement, Edmunds purports to be a resource for consumers shopping ALL vehicles, not just vehicles produced by companies whose headquarters are in the United States.
I'd buy type B without complaint, if type A was built in Honduras.
If Type A were built here, yet their workers were treated like that of the Michael Bianco Co. of New Bedford Mass. (read: SWEATSHOP) no consideration. If they were treated like Honda or Toyota workers, they'd get plenty of consideration.
Again, I have no problem w/ getting the best bang for my buck. If you read my last post, I had no problem paying $35-40/hr for an electrician. I would NEVER hire an illegal immigrant to do that job, no matter his credentials, even if he said $10/hr. I'd definitely buy Type A if I felt the workers were treated OK, but that doesn't mean there is any shame in buying Type B, epecially if Type A were built overseas even with US made parts.
Hard to believe that people making two to three times as much money, let alone other benefits, compared to other trades / jobs, could not have saved enough to tire with. Easy to understand that they did not. Was it a binding contract - sure! Are they entitled to getting the pension - absolutely. That is if GM can do so. If the golden goose is cooked, and it may be, then all payments may end some day. If the pensions are funded or over-funded now, that is a good thing. If the future of GM is profitable and they make all the obligations in the future, then great. As for the taxpayers making up any difference, I am not sure. Are all those pensions backed by US taxpayers = government. If so then we are on the hook. From a practical sense though, I would never assume any employment in a company will guarantee me a future. Of course I do understand how solid a GM or say an Enron may seem to employees that they would consider future payments as sound as a could possibly be anything in the world.
As for pants made in Honduras, well I suppose those people have to eat too. And we may export to that country. Problem in USA now is too many jobs leaving compared to those being created. The import/export balance is out of whack. We do need more jobs in USA. It would have been good for Americans to have a choice of buying USA Wranglers for say $25 and not $20, but what seems to happen is a push made by a LARGE retailer to lower, to lowest pricing getting the margin down so low that Wrangler could no longer make a profit. Once it went from say $30 to $25, things got tight, Once they pushed it down to $20 to be able to sell in that LARGE store, they had to go to assembly in Honduras. With such larger volumes of sales, of such a basic product as jeans, it seems like there could indeed have been a compromise to keep assembly here in USA. I bet we know the reason they could no longer do so. In the $30 to $35 range, it prices regular or stretch jeans which are basic designs out of the market place, in my guesstimate. I am afraid too many people only look for even a $5 saving as something good, rather than saving USA jobs. The BIG BOX no longer seems to give a damn. Loren
And I may add those dividends to shareholders do not really offset the risk factor of the stock all that much. They should be honored by those working at GM as willing to take on risk with only the flip of a coin for reward. Actually, a little worse than a 50/50 according to the analyst opinions on the stock. I see a 3.2% dividend. I take that was reduced some time ago? While I am not sold on near term success for GM, the prospects for sales and profit in China hold some promise. So while it ain't my cup o' tea as an investment / gamble, quite a few people do feel differently and will be richer or poorer by it, one fine day. On the surface, it sure looks like GM is moving to the positive ahead of Ford in the turn-around game, but the headwinds are mounting. The housing crisis may be only in the first third of its stage - who really knows? Shaky economy here could translate into a shaky world economy - China included.
As for CEO and Executive salaries, they do seem off the charts with many companies. Not a huge concern for GM however compared to all costs of running the company. A drop in the bucket. If the CEO really pulls the rabbit out of the hat and GM doesn't have to go into bankruptcy, he may be worth the big bucks anyway. National Health Care Plan, paid by way of a VAT and not by companies as a shared expense, would have to help GM. Loren
The bottom line is I do think their is a market place for a 100% USA made automobile. I think Ford's neglected Crown Victoria is 95% american made. Just imagine if Ford played this up and came out with a nicer looking model.
Loren, I believe back in 2005' GM cut it's stock dividen in half pal. 62vetteefp, probably would know more about it.
I had some GM stock, which I've since sold, but yeah, they did cut the dividend in half back in late 2005 or early 2006. IIRC, it originally paid $2.00 per share, and they cut it back to $1.00 per share. That $2.00 per share worked out to about a 10% return once the share price was down to around $20!
The bottom line is I do think their is a market place for a 100% USA made automobile. I think Ford's neglected Crown Victoria is 95% american made. Just imagine if Ford played this up and came out with a nicer looking model.
Maybe things have changed in the past couple years, but Ford used to slip enough non-American content into the Crown Vic/Grand Marquis to get it qualified as an imported car! That way, for fuel economy purposes, it didn't drag down the CAFE averages for Ford's "domestic" cars.
"As I said before Edmunds is out of touch with their own customer base (readers). "
I agree but I wonder if this will be enough to convince them they are behind the times with their perceptions of GM products. Karl (ed in Chief) has been pretty positive about recent GM products so I was surprised that GM did so poorly in the Most Wanted list this year. I guess his staff doesn't share his view that GM products are much better than they were 5 years ago.
"The folks who are dead-set on buying domestic can research their vehicles at GM.com, ford.com, Chrysler.com, etc. Going by their mission statement, Edmunds purports to be a resource for consumers shopping ALL vehicles, not just vehicles produced by companies whose headquarters are in the United States. "
Dont be ridiculous. To suggest that anyone shopping domestic shouldnt even attempt to use automotive information sites like Edmunds is illogical. I dont care what Edmunds "mission statement" says, their reviews and Most Wanted lists prove that they are import oriented. I find it laughable that people think that any publication that says they are "unbiased" is automatically unbiased. Do you really think Edmunds or any other publication would call themselves anything but unbiased? Edmunds mission ought to be to tell people about the best vehicles available for the money regardless of who makes them. Instead they review domestic vehicles as if they dont even compete with foreign ones. Read any review of a well known import car and you will notice they never mention a domestic vehicle when listing competitors. WHen they reviewed the Veracruz they didnt even mention the GM crossovers as class leading competitors for the Hyundai. Instead they just mentioned the also ran Pilot and Highlander.
I know full well what imports are like, the point is there are some very strong recent domestic entries that deserved to be on the Most Wanted list. Any Most Wanted list that doesnt include at one car such as the 300, Fusion, Aura, Acadia/Outlook, Tahoe, Vette, Edge, Escalade, etc. isnt a legit list. At least they had the sense to put the Mustang on there.
"If a domestic compares favorably in a category, I have seen nothing to suggest that Edmunds doesn't call it like it is."
Its apparent either you havent been reading or you just happen to agree with everything edmunds says and thus you find them to be impartial. Probably the latter.
I just bought my girlfriend some excellent cookware made by a company from western Pennsylvania called All-Clad. The stuff is pricey, but it will definately last a lot longer than the cheesy Chinese-made stuff she had. I saw a nasty accident waiting to happen as the handle of one of her cheap pots was ready to snap off causing her to spill hot soup all over herself. It won't happen with one of these All-Clad pots. You'd need a plasma torch to loosen that handle.
I got to see how All-Clad cookware is manufactured via PCN Tours on Comcast Cable. You won't see this kind of meticulous craftsmanship in a Chinese cookware factory.
Still, we didn't expect our Holden's blazing 5.3-second run to 60 mph. The quarter-mile streaked past in 14.1 seconds at 99.1 mph. But we swear there's more on the table, as left-handed shifts from 2nd gear to 3rd are difficult for U.S.-trained drivers.
If you want to see a graphic example of the collapse of the apparel industry, come to Philly. Philadelphia was home to many famous labels -Botany 500, Stetson, Bill Blass, Marcus-Pincus. A co-worker at my second job worked at Marcus-Pincus until they sent all their work overseas. The guy lost his job, his wife, and then his house. He went through a 5-year rough patch before landing a job with an uniform manufacturer.
The Botany 500 factory still stands at Broad and Somerset - a gigantic grafitti-scarred pigeon loft.
Maybe things have changed in the past couple years, but Ford used to slip enough non-American content into the Crown Vic/Grand Marquis to get it qualified as an imported car!
Probably because they are built in Canada (and so is the Town Car beginning next year).
Comments
Well if we would take the greedy executives who make unsustainable promises to it's shareholder's to the firing line we wouldn't have half of the problems we have now. The cost of healthcare has sky rocked because various reasons but as Lou Dobb's guest said last night the cost to absorb just 10 million illegal aliens into out society will be $2.5-$3 trillion dollars. More than double that if you believe their is more like 20-25 million. More than enough money to pay for National Helathcare for a very long time.
Don't see that the US taxpayer should have to bail out GM through our politicians in DC. GM will have to work themselves out of their mismanagement (on many issues) in past decades.
Well your current president has spent billion subsidizing a oil industry already makeing $10+ billion a quarter so I believe if some in the government doesn't want national health care they better draw up a plan to control sky rocketing costs. GM nor the UAW ever thought the price of health care would quadruple when making these promises. That's not including the cost of pharamceuticals
-Rocky
So your against rolling back the Bush tax cut for people making over $200K. What the answer grbeck. Just telling retirees to bite the bullet isn't a solution. You are sounding like Bill Ford, "I'll cut my way to profitability, but I have no real plan" I also know somebody else that thinks that way and his non plan hasn't worked either and has costed this country $400 billion more than planned.
But someone still has to pay for those benefits, and the federal government can't just print more money to do so, without risking massive inflation.
Why can't the federal government ???? They have been operating this way once again for about 6 years.
Costs will rise, unless cost containment measures are taken. Since most of us have no desire to pay 50 percent of our income in taxes, something will have to give.
Would out taxes go up some ? You bet ya but more like 35% instead of 50% but wouldn't it be worth the extra taxes to have good jobs like GM, once again in this country ? I also think it's worth it to have health care as at the current rate I don't know if average folks like my self will be able to afford it in 20 years. :surprise:
-Rocky
-Rocky
Yes for you AND your spouse and dependent's. On a $3020 pension that takes a small bite and I imagine it will get worse in September.
-Rocky
Here in RI, the 2 major insurers, Blue Cross RI and United Healthcare are supposedly nonprofits, yet nobody complains that the former CEO is driving around in a $120,000 Mercedes coupe, bought and paid for by B.C., or the millions in loans the board approved and forgave. Now, they want to sell their HQ for 20 mil and build a high profile office for 250+ mil. United just caused an uproar for wanting to send $34 mil in PROFITS to their parent company yet rates still skyrocket.
grbeck noted new drugs, such as Viagra being on the market, yet I wonder where the disgust is at the Pharm. co.'s for advertising these meds to the public, and not just doctors, especially during high profile times like the Super Bowl.
It seems to me that Co.'s like GM get bashed for paying this king's ransom, the UAW gets bashed for demanding GM pay it, yet nobody criticizes the healthcare industry for foisting these increases on us, all while making money hand over fist.
Perhaps you missed it but I sure see a lot of criticism toward the health industry!!! :P
-Rocky
-Rocky
Nevertheless, as I look in my local paper and see people crying the blues about how our town workers get their birthday as a paid holiday and paid benfits, they cry "go work in the REAL world and see what you'd get". It's no use to tell them to Unionize, fight for your rights, and get what you deserve, because the sad part is that most of those companies would pack up and go to China or India before the union got in place (you can't ship road repairs overseas
My father-in-law says there's gonna be a Revolution in this country. I think he's half right. He sees it as politiaclly motivated, with politicians hanging in the gallows. I fear it's actually going to be a working class one, with the have-nots putting the haves in the noose, while the CEO's laugh their way to the bank.
Well nobody really said much about GM's $62 million dollar profit ? :surprise: Well the good thing is it isn't a loss. However GM, needs to do better. The UAW, needs to help GM, out this contract and Mr. Wagoner, needs to re invest here in the U.S.
Do any of you think a 100% American Made General Motor's car would sell well if it had the right styling. Like if the Cadillac CTS was a 100% American Made, do you guys think it would exceed the sales levels it's projected to hit or have we lost our flag waving patriotic days of the past ? The Silverado try's to play this role but it being assembled in Canada, Mexico, and U.S. that tarnishes it's rep. However it is still nearly 90% domestic content made. It would probably work better with a Pick-up than anything else I think.
Just like to hear some different opinions......
-Rocky
Rocky, visit places like New York City, Los Angeles and San Francisco. Talk to the people who live there. Check housing prices.
You will discover that an annual income of $200,000 does not necessarily make one "rich" in those areas.
rockylee: What the answer grbeck. Just telling retirees to bite the bullet isn't a solution.
Taxing everyone else into oblivion to ensure that retirees do not have to pay anything for their perscription drugs or doctor visits isn't the solution, either.
rockylee: You are sounding like Bill Ford, "I'll cut my way to profitability, but I have no real plan" I also know somebody else that thinks that way and his non plan hasn't worked either and has costed this country $400 billion more than planned.
And what has the UAW offered?
Pretend that everyone making $200,000 is rich?
Pretend that Congress is going to limit the sales of Hondas and Toyotas?
Pretend that it's still 1965, and GM still controls 50 percent of the market, and can just raise prices to cover the extra costs?
rockylee: Why can't the federal government ???? They have been operating this way once again for about 6 years.
Contrary to popular belief, our federal budget deficit is not currently out of line with historical standards, and our deficit as a percentage of total economic output is actually much better than many other countries, including Japan.
Of course, requiring the federal government to provide UAW-level benefits for everyone will quickly change this picture.
rockylee: Would out taxes go up some ? You bet ya but more like 35% instead of 50% but wouldn't it be worth the extra taxes to have good jobs like GM, once again in this country ?
My taxes are high enough, thank you very much. And Honda and Toyota are adding "good" jobs here, without any tax increase at the federal level.
Even if we completely eliminate the overhead generated by insurance companies, health care costs would still increase, because the new treatments and drugs are more expensive than the old ones.
They are more "high tech," and usually more intensive than the treatments they replace.
Well "good" jobs until you get a little older and then the tap from your supervisor comes and tells you "your out of here!!!" But boss, Boss: "Security, this ones giving me trouble" :P
-Rocky
Hmmmmm....Interesting. I don't think that it would matter whether the content was 100 or say,75%, provided it was assembled here (N.A.). Now, if it were to be assembled in China, I think THAT would cause an uproar, even if it were 110% domestic. Another reason why I think unionization of a Toyota plant is PLAUSIBLE, because I don't think they could afford the neg. publicity of packing their bags and going home, where conditions are more to their liking.
Having said that, I do think there is room for a more "global" process for GM, where they may be able to import vehicles that aren't mainstream, such as the Aveo and Astra, without taking a "hit" for not building here. In a perfect world (or USA) ALL GM vehicles sold worldwide should be built here, w/ 100% domestic content, but we know that would spell political disaster. I just hope that what comes around, goes around, meaning that if outside the US, people are clamoring for a product sold exclusively here it can be BUILT here and EXPORTED, until such a time that a plant can be converted to build it there.
If they unionized, would you still consider them "good"?
cooterbfd, the insurance companies "foist" these increases on us for new drugs and treatments because they are paying more for them
They are more "high tech," and usually more intensive than the treatments they replace
Agreed, in general. Yet, I wonder, how many of these pharm. commercials cause people to say "hey, I think I have those symptoms" causing potentially unnecessary visits to the PHP. Or even "Gee I'm on drug X, yet drug Y seems to be a better fit for me I'll ask my doctor"-again another potentially unnecessary visit.
http://www.americanapparel.net/index.html (Warning: people [tastefully] photographed wearing underwear. Do not visit site if you find that offensive)
All American-made cotton clothing like t-shirts, sleepwear and undergarments, and the company is doing extremely well. (all of the models are employees, btw)
Are the t-shirts kind of expensive? Yeah, but they're allegedly great quality and they offer a ton of great colors & cuts that you won't find at some of the shops that import everything.
They could possibly teach some other US manufacturers how to make a product that Americans truly want to buy and be proud to say is 100% American.
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The Edmunds Most Wanted is simply a list of what the editors like. No more, no less.
Sure.
What I object to is when employees, through the union, make ever-increasing demands on the company, putting it in a disadvantageous competitive position, and then expect taxpayers to bail out said company.
GM and Ford are not ATM machines. They must generate big profits to survive. Unfortunately, bad management has hurt their ability to generate those profits. Part of that bad management is agreeing to too many union demands.
The UAW isn't helping any by treating the current level of staffing and benefits (not so much pay - Toyota workers make almost as much as GM employees) as though they were handed down by Moses on stone tablets.
I think that is obvious, and the editors only like imports which is reflected in the road tests. People who are looking to buy cars look to sites like this for advice so when domestics get no respect even when they deserve it you can bet in impacts buying decisions. It's apparent that the people that visit this site hold GM products in much higher regard than Edmunds does which is interesting since most visitors to this site (or at least those that post) have a tendency to be anti-domestic. I think it kind of shows people's opinions are starting to change even if Edmunds' opinion isn't.
Yes, but it's tough for us working class NOT to say where's our fair share when CEO's (Home Depot) are granted $200 mil. golden parachutes for lousy performances. I read an OP-ED piece where large companies such as Circuit City are laying off senior employees, telling them they can reapply after 10 weeks, at a much lower pay. And they have no recourse. Taxpayers have to bail out companies when they are mismanaged into the ground (Kaiser Aluminum) or markets suffer a disaster (Airlines after 9/11) and we have to bail out their pension funds. I have to wonder, if the Southern states diddn't break the bank in tax credits for Honda and Toyota, would they have still built here? I say, yes, because ultimately they sell more cars here because they are assembled here. I think that fact makes the the tax breaks a drop in the bucket to these big companies, yet is still significant to the cities and counties that supported them. I think if we (USA) said NO TAX BREAKS to foreign companies they'd still come here, because they need us more than we need them.
Since we don't seem to have a handle on how to close the borders of USA, it becomes apparent that a VAT tax is the only one which will work. And funding for national health care would come out of that. Interesting to note that people are concerned about retired auto workers having to pay for insurance when millions of people are paying 100% for insurance. And I may add, plenty of people have zero company pensions. They live on savings/investments and social security. Our current sad state of government is cause for some worry however, once they take over health care payments. Is there anyone that runs for government positions worth voting for these days? Anyone seen studies on the German health care system, where they pay a set dollar amount for health care and you can still use the doctor you want to use -- I think??? Payments must be tightly regulated.
Loren
I would bet under 1% of the US market. So it is a good niche product. I cannot forsee the US car manufacurers doing the same.
Retirees and healthcare: problem is that these people were promised that years ago and budgeted for it accordingly. Unfortunately they can't go back and do it all over.
Hell, this goes back to my earlier post: here we are having a discussion about who pays for retirement/pensions, and it COULD (though, knowing you from your posts, it wont) as it does between plenty of people degrade into a profanity laced, hate filled argument on these merits, and the CEO's just sit back and laugh, because ultimately, it's these arguments that cause a divide and animosity between workers, and nobody wants to stick up for one another, and they can just do as they please.
As to the $20 jeans, while I know that the clothing industry has been decimated in this country for years now, I think the analogy can still be made: By paying the $35 for the union made jeans, we ensure the job here, not Honduras, and they in turn have more money to spend quite possibly on your goods and services(I know a little over simplistic). There should be NO shame in spending good, hard earned money to pay someone a fair wage for their goods and services, even though we want the best deal we can get (no shame in that, either). I had my shed rewired 2 yrs ago, and got a bill for $1000. I was like :surprise: . How much???? I thought about it, and said OK they were here for 10 hrs. 2 guys*10hrs=20 man hrs. At $40/hr, thats $800. $35/hr, $700. Plus $2-300 in parts, OK. Is $40/hr unreasonable for a self employed master electrician? I don't think so, do you? Does anybody (remember, I live in N.E., high cost of living)??
Like lemko I could not likely afford to buy my own house if I had to start today. It's worth three times what I paid for it.
I will say I've been in it a while - almost exactly 14 years - and I added on, but it would stil be worth almost triple without taking the addition into account.
Sounds like a gamling addict.
Potential customers of GM vehicles should not have to care whether or not the GM vehicle had some amount of union workers doing assembly, making parts at suppliers, etc.
If GM were to offer certain brands/models with exact same specifications, attributes, but priced them $1800 difference, how many on this board would sign on dotted line to pay more. As an example, if 2009 Chevrolet Biscotti Type A had zero union input and Type B had great percent of UAW and other unions' input but was $1800 more, how many here would buy the Type B. Incidentally, pretend that C&D and a popular consumer magazine thoroughly tested both A and B and could not tell the difference.
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If you believe the recent JD Power/Detroit News nationwide survey, a sizable majority (think it was close to 70%) of recent domestic purchasers didn't consider purchasing an Asian make for no other reason than it was Asian. I'm not going to knock Edmunds for a perceived failure to kowtow to a retrograde-thinking demographic.
If a domestic compares favorably in a category, I have seen nothing to suggest that Edmunds doesn't call it like it is. And I don't think it's exactly a newsflash that foreign makes stack up pretty well v. domestics when it comes to real-world criteria like driveability, fit and finish, aesthetics, bang for the buck, and resale value.
The folks who are dead-set on buying domestic can research their vehicles at GM.com, ford.com, Chrysler.com, etc. Going by their mission statement, Edmunds purports to be a resource for consumers shopping ALL vehicles, not just vehicles produced by companies whose headquarters are in the United States.
If Type A were built here, yet their workers were treated like that of the Michael Bianco Co. of New Bedford Mass. (read: SWEATSHOP) no consideration. If they were treated like Honda or Toyota workers, they'd get plenty of consideration.
Again, I have no problem w/ getting the best bang for my buck. If you read my last post, I had no problem paying $35-40/hr for an electrician. I would NEVER hire an illegal immigrant to do that job, no matter his credentials, even if he said $10/hr. I'd definitely buy Type A if I felt the workers were treated OK, but that doesn't mean there is any shame in buying Type B, epecially if Type A were built overseas even with US made parts.
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Try this site too. I believe I saw the clothes on Kirstie's site at a shop in downtown Prov. RI., so I'll bet they're out there
As for pants made in Honduras, well I suppose those people have to eat too. And we may export to that country. Problem in USA now is too many jobs leaving compared to those being created. The import/export balance is out of whack. We do need more jobs in USA. It would have been good for Americans to have a choice of buying USA Wranglers for say $25 and not $20, but what seems to happen is a push made by a LARGE retailer to lower, to lowest pricing getting the margin down so low that Wrangler could no longer make a profit. Once it went from say $30 to $25, things got tight, Once they pushed it down to $20 to be able to sell in that LARGE store, they had to go to assembly in Honduras. With such larger volumes of sales, of such a basic product as jeans, it seems like there could indeed have been a compromise to keep assembly here in USA. I bet we know the reason they could no longer do so. In the $30 to $35 range, it prices regular or stretch jeans which are basic designs out of the market place, in my guesstimate. I am afraid too many people only look for even a $5 saving as something good, rather than saving USA jobs. The BIG BOX no longer seems to give a damn.
Loren
As for CEO and Executive salaries, they do seem off the charts with many companies. Not a huge concern for GM however compared to all costs of running the company. A drop in the bucket. If the CEO really pulls the rabbit out of the hat and GM doesn't have to go into bankruptcy, he may be worth the big bucks anyway. National Health Care Plan, paid by way of a VAT and not by companies as a shared expense, would have to help GM.
Loren
It wasn't lemko's fault!!
If any of you want to buy american this site is a good one to use and find everything from appliances to cars.
http://www.howtobuyamerican.com/
The bottom line is I do think their is a market place for a 100% USA made automobile. I think Ford's neglected Crown Victoria is 95% american made. Just imagine if Ford played this up and came out with a nicer looking model.
-Rocky
I had some GM stock, which I've since sold, but yeah, they did cut the dividend in half back in late 2005 or early 2006. IIRC, it originally paid $2.00 per share, and they cut it back to $1.00 per share. That $2.00 per share worked out to about a 10% return once the share price was down to around $20!
The bottom line is I do think their is a market place for a 100% USA made automobile. I think Ford's neglected Crown Victoria is 95% american made. Just imagine if Ford played this up and came out with a nicer looking model.
Maybe things have changed in the past couple years, but Ford used to slip enough non-American content into the Crown Vic/Grand Marquis to get it qualified as an imported car! That way, for fuel economy purposes, it didn't drag down the CAFE averages for Ford's "domestic" cars.
-Rocky
I agree but I wonder if this will be enough to convince them they are behind the times with their perceptions of GM products. Karl (ed in Chief) has been pretty positive about recent GM products so I was surprised that GM did so poorly in the Most Wanted list this year. I guess his staff doesn't share his view that GM products are much better than they were 5 years ago.
Dont be ridiculous. To suggest that anyone shopping domestic shouldnt even attempt to use automotive information sites like Edmunds is illogical. I dont care what Edmunds "mission statement" says, their reviews and Most Wanted lists prove that they are import oriented. I find it laughable that people think that any publication that says they are "unbiased" is automatically unbiased. Do you really think Edmunds or any other publication would call themselves anything but unbiased? Edmunds mission ought to be to tell people about the best vehicles available for the money regardless of who makes them. Instead they review domestic vehicles as if they dont even compete with foreign ones. Read any review of a well known import car and you will notice they never mention a domestic vehicle when listing competitors. WHen they reviewed the Veracruz they didnt even mention the GM crossovers as class leading competitors for the Hyundai. Instead they just mentioned the also ran Pilot and Highlander.
I know full well what imports are like, the point is there are some very strong recent domestic entries that deserved to be on the Most Wanted list. Any Most Wanted list that doesnt include at one car such as the 300, Fusion, Aura, Acadia/Outlook, Tahoe, Vette, Edge, Escalade, etc. isnt a legit list. At least they had the sense to put the Mustang on there.
"If a domestic compares favorably in a category, I have seen nothing to suggest that Edmunds doesn't call it like it is."
Its apparent either you havent been reading or you just happen to agree with everything edmunds says and thus you find them to be impartial. Probably the latter.
-Rocky
I got to see how All-Clad cookware is manufactured via PCN Tours on Comcast Cable. You won't see this kind of meticulous craftsmanship in a Chinese cookware factory.
Still, we didn't expect our Holden's blazing 5.3-second run to 60 mph. The quarter-mile streaked past in 14.1 seconds at 99.1 mph. But we swear there's more on the table, as left-handed shifts from 2nd gear to 3rd are difficult for U.S.-trained drivers.
Holdenguy will be very proud !!!!!
-Rocky
The Botany 500 factory still stands at Broad and Somerset - a gigantic grafitti-scarred pigeon loft.
Probably because they are built in Canada (and so is the Town Car beginning next year).