General Motors discussions

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  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    MILFORD, Mich. — Caught flexing its muscle recently outside GM's Milford proving grounds, this 2009 Chevrolet Corvette SS appears similar to the car spotted months ago on its way to Germany.

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=120617?tid=edmunds.il.home.p- hotopanel..1.*

    -Rocky
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    If you want to see a graphic example of the collapse of the apparel industry, come to Philly. Philadelphia was home to many famous labels -Botany 500, Stetson, Bill Blass, Marcus-Pincus.

    Didn't Botany and Stetson collapse perhaps because of buggy whip analogy. Except for lawyers, politicians and ordinary folks rare times of going to funerals, who wears a suit anymore. As for Stetson, didn't guys stop wearing hats back in the 60's? Movies from 60's, such as Bond shows hats, but think that hats disappeared in 70's. Maybe Botany and Stetson did not adapt to the times. GM will apparently survive by being adaptive, which includes realizing more of its future in world markets rather than substantially in US.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Sveetness. Now just build a 3/4 size version and I'll come on down and try it out.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Except for lawyers, politicians and ordinary folks rare times of going to funerals, who wears a suit anymore. As for Stetson, didn't guys stop wearing hats back in the 60's?

    I must be the rare exception because I still wear hats and suits. Not all the time, but more often than others. Geeze, you've got a point. Everybody dresses like slobs these days.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,113
    Probably because they are built in Canada (and so is the Town Car beginning next year).

    No, it had nothing to do with Canada, because they count Canadian content as "domestic" on those stickers. My Intrepid was built in Canada, and I think its "domestic" content was something like 86%. Ford slipped just enough non US/Canadian content into the Panthers to get just below the threshold to get excluded as a domestic, which is something like 75% I think?

    Have Canadian-built cars EVER been considered "foreign"? My '82 Cutlass Supreme was built in Canada (at least, if I decoded the VIN correctly!)
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Have Canadian-built cars EVER been considered "foreign"?

    Pre-NAFTA. One of the reasons that Canada got counted as "domestic" for content labels was so that the former Big 4's Canadian output wouldn't get boned on tariffs when sold south of the border.

    If your Cutlass was built in Canada, the VIN should start with '2G...'.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Have Canadian-built cars EVER been considered "foreign"? My '82 Cutlass Supreme was built in Canada (at least, if I decoded the VIN correctly!)

    So, if correct, GM started outsourcing assembly at least 25 years ago. Understand that they have had operations/division in Europe, and maybe Australia, for decades and these serve those markets exclusively.

    What with Mexican and Canadian built GM vehicles, and maybe with Chinese Buick Lacrosses coming into US on the horizon, will be harder and harder to get true American built vehicles except for Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Subaru, BMW.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    "Chinese LaCrosses" will be built here in the US with the "opel" Auras and "US" Malibus.

    And the "Austrailian" or "Chinese" Buick whatever it will be called will be built in the Candian province.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Are you sure about that? Given Buick's continuing low sales numbers in the US, there is a point where it becomes economically unviable to build clones of Chinese cars in North America.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Buick, doesn't have that low of sales. All of their models are selling pretty well and they reduced their fleet numbers making the line-up more profitable. In 2009 or 2010 when the new LaCrosse, Lucerne, Velite Sedan/Convertible, Enclave I see no reason why they can't sell a half million units here in the U.S. ;)

    -Rocky
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Buick is low enough: 56,577 through April 2007. GM has sold more Cobalts this year than Buicks.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Latest issue (May 7) of Autoweek gives good review of first test drive of Enclave. It said that those shopping Japanese crossovers have a good reason to think Buick. They said it had a quiet interior and world-class ride. But, there are always buts, it had sluggish transmission kickdown that contributed to somewhat lazy acceleration.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    Latest issue of Autoweek (May 7) has pictures from Shanghai Auto Show. Autoweek says that Shanghai will be “THE” Auto Show in less than a decade. A number of pictures of concepts and production cars were shown, including Buick, BMW, Audi, Great Wall, Geely, Chery, Brilliance, Roewe and Ssangyong.

    The Buick Park Avenue is pictured and is slated for production. GM officials say that there are no plans to import the Park Avenue to US. In styling, the Park Avenue looks staid in comparison to Shanghai Automotive Industry’s Ssangyong WZ concept. The WZ looks very elegant and up-to-date vs the kind of ordinary Park Avenue. The Park Avenue will have massage seats.

    The Buick Riviera coupe is shown in profile and looks good but might face competition from a Bertone (Italy) styled China Chery. Then there is the Geely Coupe concept which does not quite match up to the Riviera. But, the Geely might appeal to those with esoteric (Aztek) type tastes.

    That Ssangyong WZ (luxury) concept looked pretty good to me. If and when quality, reliability, fit/finish, performance, etc usual characteristics are competitive, will probably see Ssangyongs parked in driveways of Mcmansions here.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Got a link to that story xrunner or is it to new to be posted ? So those guys a spewing Anti-GM propoganda still. Glad I canceled them a few years ago and they couldn't shed their obvious bias. The 6-speed auto is the same unit they are using in the new SUV's and Trucks, and I've heard good things about it. :mad:

    -Rocky
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    So those guys a spewing Anti-GM propoganda still. Glad I canceled them a few years ago and they couldn't shed their obvious bias.

    No link. It is old-fashioned hard copy magazine.

    It was a very good review and the transmission shifting was the only issue. The word "but" in my post is my word, not theirs. Overall, the tone of the article was very complimentary to the Enclave.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,741
    How did they review the transmission flare and lags in the ES, Ava, and Camry in that mag?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    No, they didn't complain about the transmission, but they didn't like it much either.

    2007 Camry AutoWeek Review

    "When I first saw this car, I predicted it would be the product to push Toyota into the number one position in the world. Can I take that back?"

    You can apologize for your attempted cheapshot at AutoWeek without research, any time. Just because they don't always give glowing reviews to GM cars may not mean that they automatically love Toyota.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    The 6-speed auto is the same unit they are using in the new SUV's and Trucks, and I've heard good things about it.

    Enclave was a FWD transverse V6 last I heard, while the trucks and SUVs are RWD longitudinal V8s. The internal design might be the same, but the drivetrain outputs and shift tuning certainly won't be.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    How did they review the transmission flare and lags in the ES, Ava, and Camry in that mag?

    Don't understand. If they experienced something undesirable in transmission of Enclave during test drive should they keep it a secret and not honestly report it?
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Don't understand. If they experienced something undesirable in transmission of Enclave during test drive should they keep it a secret and not honestly report it?

    Only if they do the same for others, if I get the gist of the comment.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I will not apologize as I had a 1 yr. subscription and read as much propoganda from them as I would get from a CR publication. I also didn't like how costly they were and how little info I got that I didn't already know. It was like reading last weeks news. ;)

    -Rocky
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,247
    Not quite sure how mentioning one negative aspect of the vehicle (which all vehicle have) qualifies as "spewing Anti-GM propoganda." Sounds to me like they recommended it overall.

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  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    I read the online article, and I think they came away impressed.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Kirstie,

    You gotta realize I was a subscriber of them for 1 year. Got 52 weeks from them and yes they are pretty biased. BMW, in their eyes can do nothing wrong. I do not believe for a momment the new GM/Ford 6-speed is sluggish. GM and Ford spent a lot of money in R&D to get that thing perfected.

    -Rocky
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Fron that article:

    Of these handsome General Motors sport utes—Saturn Outlook/GMC Acadia/Buick Enclave (a Chevy is yet to come)—to hit lots, many will choose the Enclave as the best-looking model out there. Now that’s high praise… for any automaker, but especially Buick. Throw in a quiet interior and world-class ride should give those shopping Japanese crossovers a real reason to think Buick. Oh, and comparable Enclaves will run several thousand dollars less than the competition from Lexus.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Okay I read it. This is probably the nicest they have ever been to GM, even though they took a couple small cheap shots when they could.

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    especially for a Buick ???? That was a cheap shot. The Lucerne was/is a POS ???? The Park Avenue was a POS ???? The LeSabre, was a junker as well I suppose ????

    -Rocky
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    I agree wholeheartedly, Rocky. Somehow, I think these auto reviewers don't understand "American" autos.
  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    You have to be pretty darn desperate to find an insult in this paragraph... but sure enough you found one. Geeez.

    Of these handsome General Motors sport utes—Saturn Outlook/GMC Acadia/Buick Enclave (a Chevy is yet to come)—to hit lots, many will choose the Enclave as the best-looking model out there. Now that’s high praise… for any automaker, but especially Buick. Throw in a quiet interior and world-class ride should give those shopping Japanese crossovers a real reason to think Buick. Oh, and comparable Enclaves will run several thousand dollars less than the competition from Lexus.

    I guess your stance is that if they don't love every aspect of every GM product more than they love any aspect of any other maker (except the Acura TL, your pet) then they're biased propagandists. :sick:

    An optimist would have noted the phrase "the competition from Lexus which suggests that Buick is playing in the big leagues with this model.

    Bet you were always disappointed at your birthday gifts as a child.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,247
    They were talking about styling. Buick does not traditionally have a reputation for exterior styling that makes people take notice. They have other attractions, but that has not been one in the past.

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
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  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Maybe the RECENT past, but they have had a tradition of styling, especially from the 40's-early 70's
  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    THE OLD
    image

    Versus

    THE NEW
    image
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    lokki, I have tears running down my cheeks from your post from laughing so hard. ROTFFLMAO :D I'm not trying to be a jerk but I guess it came across that way. Let's just say I don't have a high opinion of autoweek and we'll leave it at that.

    -Rocky
  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    ;)
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    The Rainier, wasn't that bad of a looking vehicle. Sure it's no Enclave but it wasn't bad either. I'm just saying Buick, had some good designed models as I liked the Grand National, mid-late 90's Riveria, Buick Regal GS, not to mention many models from the 40-70's like cooterbfd, talked about. ;)

    -Rocky
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    My wife has a Ranier, and I can't pry it out of her hands
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Okay that is true Kirstie....However you gotta admit that the LaCrosse, is pretty nice and the Lucerne, is younger looking also. However no automobile on this earth is as drop dead gorgeous as the Buick Velite Convertible.
    :shades:

    -Rocky
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    The FWD six speed automatics have a different set of gear ratios from the RWD six speed automatics. There are in fact truck six speeds (6L80 & 6L90 transmissions) and RWD car six speeds (6L50 & 6L80 [V8] & 6L40 [V6]).

    FWD six speed ratios are about: 4.5:1, 2.9:1, 1.8:1, 1.5:1, 1:1 and 0.75:1
    RWD ratios are about: 4:1, 2.4:1, 1.55:1, 1.15:1, 0.85:1 and 0.67:1
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    To me, the Lucerne looks the way a Buick should look. The LaCrosse doesn't have the same look. The new Enclave is the stand-out of the line - easily the best-looking Buick right now, and that's coming from ME, someone who isn't a big fan of chrome.

    Do all the Enclaves get those large chrome rims, or is there another option?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I almost baught one a few years ago. My wife wants a Enclave. If GM, would of left those darn picnic tabels in there along with the dual fold down LCD's and rear center console I'd maybe buy one. If I did buy a Enclave I'd wait for the 2-Mode hybrid along with the V8. ;)

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Well maybe now you can understand why I have written GM about 30 times or so in the last couple of years to build me the Velite Convertible & Sedan to go along with the Enclave. :shades:

    -Rocky
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Especially for Buick is probably based on the mostly mixed reviews for Buick autos in the way of styling for some years now. Seems to me odd that so many car companies have models of SUV and trucks, which were known in the past for near luxury automobiles. Well that's the game I suppose. I would think Chevy and GMC would be the truck and car producing lines within GM, but this is a very-very strange new world, with Porsche now making SUVs. Most of these all look the same to me, other than say the Murano, and a couple others with some interesting twists in SUV styling. I personally can see no reason why the Enclave should not be better styled than the rest of the GM FWD SUVs, though I still don't see why they need so many badges of the same car. Just pick the one which looks the best and make a couple grades of that one as a GMC or Chevy. And Enclave is a silly name.

    As for the other cars mentioned, the Lucy is kinda stylish in its own way, and perhaps being every bit a DTS should replace that model. The cost of the FWD big luxo would be reduced while adding a bit more splash looks wise. Are they having steering issues though? The Park Avenue and LeSabre did have style and grace, but it became dated in the eyes of the press AND the customer. This does NOT mean, like the Lacrosse, the style is not there, but rather the customers and the press seem to want for something totally new. And as we all know, that something new can look ridiculous, be it tail fins, the wagon wheels on cars. Sadly, a rather tasteful and smooth designed Lacrosse was already dated when it hit the showrooms. People no longer seem to want the smooth, rounded, and simple flowing lines of the 90's Buicks. It is not about what I think or a couple of others here think, but the majority which seems to hold back the Buick sales. Then there is the debate over engines and drive trains. Will not go there other than stating that even if it is just a game, as in new this and that, it is one GM in. All manufactures play the game. Come time to impress the press, you have to have what is considered new. The Buick line up, I am sure will want to keep both the older customers, and bring in the new. The Lacrosse has three grades and various handling results. One would hope this works from a marketing aspect, this would work.
    Well it may work for other cars, but unfortunately, for right or wrong, when Buick does it, the focus shifts immediately to the base model. The model which satisfies those want a good ride without feeling any bumps along the way, also has the looser handling and old drive train. So what happens is the base model, all so typical Buick, becomes the focus and the image remains as a stodgy old mans car. Perhaps some sort of compromise is needed, as the old base for Buicks get too old to drive. Maybe a medium handling, tighter steering, and only the modern drive trains should become base, then add the sport package to that for even harder riding and more power and cornering a car. Just a thought.
    Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Enclave looks pretty darn good style wise. Adds some style to SUV like the Murano did. I still think a name like Lassen would be more appropriate. Oh well, it ain't my baby ;) Going to cruise night before the auto show today. Should see a fine '65 Riviera they had last year, as well as many cool cars from GM best of years for stylin'. Oh yeah, and some not so good years, people seem to like, as in blocky style, accented with fins - can we say '57?
    Loren
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    so I was surprised that GM did so poorly in the Most Wanted list this year.
    ****

    Well, most wanted is a popularity contest. It had little to do with actual reliability. Most reviewers don't like GM's offerings. But they are decently reliable and less expensive than most of the imports, so a LOT of people buy them.

    I think that may be part o fit - it's a car you settle for because of economics. They really wanted that E-Class but didn't have enough money. So the "Buick" feels like something they settled for.

    Me? I know what I can afford and don't get into the whole grass-is-greener scenario. And as a result, a 2 year old Lucerne CXS is right near the top of my list this fall. Compared to the 10-20 year old vehicles I've had, it's going to be lovely.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    I think Buick, needs to make no more models without leather. If they want to make a cloth seats model then they need to put the soft stuff they used to stick in cars back in the 80's. I remember grandpa's Lincoln Continental, had ultra soft luxury cloth which was nice. That's the kind of material they should use in Buick's CX and CXL models. The CXS and SUPER models should have leather. The bottom line is Buick, needs to be more upscale Loren, to take on Lexus. I agree with your accessment that GM, need to limit the rebadges on the CUV's. Chevrolet doesn't need one. GM, should just use the Acadia, and they gotta let Chevy people know the GMC model is the one they should buy. The Acadia, gives instant value to GMC. GM, should distinguish the line-up better as rebages were a bad thing in the past. I can see justification for the Outlook, which should lure chevy customers as well. The Outlook, has chevrolet like pricing also. What GM, should do is eliminate the uplander, relay, terezza, and come out with a Honda fighter van for Chevy. This would distinguish the line-up better. If you want to move-up to the CUV line-up you got 3 choices. I guess Saab dealer's want a CUV now. If I was GM, I'd tell them no. Instead they should make a nice sporty wagon. They could share this maybe with Pontiac or Cadillac. GM, should not share designs with really more than 2 brands. I guess if it's going to be in the GMC line-up then yeah maybe 3. The biggest gripe I have is with General Motors is the Truck series with GMC and Chevrolet. They are just to much a like and GM, is afraid to axe GMC, because many import buyers look at GMC, as more prestigous than Chevrolet. This is a problem and is why I think models like the Acadia, should share with other brands before Chevrolet. I'd like to see more of this to bring up GMC's image and give it a reason to survive. Just some thoughts.... ;)

    -Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,017
    Do all the Enclaves get those large chrome rims, or is there another option?

    To be honest I'm not sure pal..... :confuse: Good question. I assume they are available on the CXL on up models.

    -Rocky
  • jkr2106jkr2106 Member Posts: 248
    The bottom line is Buick, needs to be more upscale Loren, to take on Lexus. I agree with your accessment that GM, need to limit the rebadges on the CUV's. Chevrolet doesn't need one.

    Wow Rocky, you totally read my mind on that one :surprise: . I hate that GM is going to take very strong entries and dilute them across so many brands. A Chevy would compete directly with the Outlook AND the Acadia which already compete with eachother.

    I think you're right too about the Chevy minivan. IMO GM should not have given up on that segment; a blind man could tell the Uplander/Relay/Terrazza were FUGLY. You don't pull out when those committee designed 'sport activity vehicles' weren't successful. Did they really think they would be?

    I think this goes back to focusing the brands:
    What is GMC's purpose? (professional grade or denali-spec)
    Are we really going to give Saturn a chance as a sporty marque for import-intenders like Nissan/Mazda? If so why have the Acadia and Outlook if they are both for import-intenders?
    Is SAAB a luxury vehicle above Buick?
    What makes are Pontiac targeting?

    One thing I do think is that if SAAB were to get a lamda it should be AWD and maybe it could be a Cayanne competitor and take major styling cues from that new AeroX concept to put SAAB into a segment in which GM doesn't really compete. Instead of looking like an Enclave/Outlook/Acadia it would be less boulbous.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    That's a Rendezvous, Rocky. The Rainier was what GM did with the Olds Bravada after killing its oldest marque.

    This is enough to make the iron-gutted want to chuck their lunch:

    image
    image
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