Yes, until very recently they have had little interaction with their other operationis.
I wouldn't say that. Ford has been sharing platforms with Mazda since the '80s, we got Americanized versions of the Mondeo and Focus, the Lincoln LS platform was the basis for a Jaguar something-or-other, and the 500/Taurus and its ilk started out as a Volvo. Ford started on the globalization thing long before GM did, but GM fully committed to it several years before Ford (i.e. when Mulally showed up).
They are buying G6 over the imports? The G6 is an improvement over the Grand Am, no doubt, but not anything I see as replacing Toyotas, Hondas, and Nissans around here. I did see one coupe the other day - rare sighting indeed. Do see some G6 sedans, but many have a little "e" on the back. The Grand Prix is absent on the car lots, so I can see how they would sell. The Holden GTO seems to have sold in one or two numbers at dealers around here. The G5 / Cobalt is something I think I saw once on the lot and that was but one. What on earth are they selling which is so great on the Left Coast? Maybe LA is a different market. I avoid LA with a passion. Last time I was in the heart of LA was the LA Car Show of 1987. Looked like a dangerous place to walk around, so I didn't. Got the car out of the city A.S.A.P. As for import oriented people buying G6, yeah I got an answer for that.... What? Guess it could happen-never say never. Loren
I wouldn't call that part progress. A Model T was designed to run on ethanol. The only reason people did not generally do so was that gasoline was cheaper. Pull out the ethanol subsidies and it still is.
The rest of what he was saying was good. Of course I'd expect Waggoner to paint a good picture since he's the guy in charge, but it was mostly accurate.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
No, there really was no sharing of platforms like GM is doing today. The G6 is off the Epsilon platform engineered in Germany with some minor differences (enough though that it pissed off some high GM execs because they were not plant compatible) and the Eps II is exactly the same platform with little or no differences.
Engineering has / is being done on the platforms in the various countries of origin. BUT, there is a huge amount of person ell being moved all over the world to assure regional needs are met. many of my friends are in Australia/Germany/China/Korea and many others travel while based here.
All cars other than Sigma are based on platforms outside the states.
Great Aunt, says GM, will be hirring as early as this fall after contract she's heard through the grapevine. That's my occupational goal is to get in to GM, now that I've moved back to Michigan
Actually I live in Washington D.C where supposedly sales are up. I have a friend that sells Pontiac/Gmc and they are having great success with the g6 hardtop convert/ and coupe. Also they are selling a lot of the Solstace, and Torrent. But you are correct the Grand Prix's are not moving.
No I am not comparing the Camry to those cars, what I am saying is that they are finally making cars that look good and fun to drive. In my opinion there is nothing fun to drive about a Camry. Have you ever driven one? I drove my brother's 2004 with the 4 cyl, and it was about as exciting as watching paint dry. Now a new g8, it may look like a Malibu, but with a 361 h.p V8 I will take that over any 6 Cyl Camry anyday.
The Camry, to me is kinda like today's Olds 88. Something upscale from the base transportation, reasonable handling, and a ride a little on the soft side, but not too soft. I drive my Dad's 2000 Camry i4 often. It handles OK, and has a good ride, sort of like my Olds 98 had. Exciting, may not be the word, but very pleasant and controlled driving experience.
I do not know what the G8 will be like. The GTO was not noted for great handling. I assume it to be powerful, though the Camry for 2007 is powerful, with great gas mileage. The G8 looks from the pictures are quite mediocure, though perhaps in the metal, before the eyes, it will look better. Or perhaps it gets some styling upgrades. With gas at $3.50 per gallon, whatever engine which is used better get closer to 30 MPG freeway, than 20 MPG. Anything over 200HP is going to be more than enough. Unless racing at the track, not sure what one can do with over 300HP. Most cars scoot along rather well with over 160HP in the lighter weights, and for those carrying the extra pounds, perhaps say anything over 200 or 225HP to carry the bulk is required. If too fat it is time for aluminum metals to add, or to take away some size to the beast.
Is this G8 the Commodore SS? Not bad looking. The front looks better as a Commodore (and he has a name) than the G8. The side profiles of the GM cars are starting to all look alike, though I guess it is OK. Why not just import the Holden as a, well as a Holden Commodore SS? Let's see a commodore and SS name plate both used together -- I'm thinking about that one. :shades: Is that a commodore of the secret service or is that ???
The car is OK, but not that killer hit -- that once in a decade sort of awe inspiring look I know GM design team can do. Now the Solstice and Sky had that appeal of a show topper, and gosh that looks really new look about them. Loren
I got third hand info that Saturn is pushing to allow people to redeem GM Card earnings. This would take place within the next 6 months. I don't know how reliable this info is as it would seem to cripple sales of the 2008 Malibu when it comes out (folks buying the Aura). Anyone else have any knowledge on this subject.
last week listed the Aura as now having a $1000 cash rebate from GM. Not surprising given what they call the disappointing sales, but might just do the trick in getting more people through the doors. After the yeas of not much on offer at Saturn stores, they will have to try a few tricks to get people to notice the brand again, I think.
That to me was less discouraging than observing several Auras on my trip to LA last weekend with the rental car bar codes on the windows. I was not aware GM sold Saturns to the rental companies. Especially not new models that show promise. :-(
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
That would be great news if they were hiring. Sure seems like they have a lot of people in job banks that will be needing a job and there are still a few plants scheduled for closing. With retail sales slightly increasing and Ford really hurting perhaps GM is looking to keep some of that capacity?
Contracts are coming up so I would think the automakers would be looking for a two tier wage system, at least for benefits.
After a $10.4 billion 2005 deficit, Wagoner pared the 2006 loss to $2 billion with union buyouts, plant closings and cuts in health-care costs. GM may earn $2.94 a share this year, the average estimate of 16 analysts in a Bloomberg survey. GM has reported two straight quarterly profits.
GM trimmed automotive-operations costs by $6.8 billion in 2006, $800 million more than projected, by shedding jobs and shutting plants. The cuts whittled fixed costs to 30 percent of revenue. The goal is 25 percent by 2010, and Wagoner reiterated last month that he plans to cut expenses by $9 billion this year.
GM's fixed costs are forecast to fall to $50 billion this year from $55 billion in 2005, including a reduction to $33 billion in North America from $41 billion.
Wagoner has identified $9 billion in cuts from the $55 billion in fixed costs reported at the end of 2005. That leaves about $7 billion, in some combination of reduced costs and increased revenue, to meet his financial targets.
“For 2007, we're building on and accelerating our progress,” Wagoner said. GM will continue working to cut health- care and labor costs in North America and increase sales outside the U.S.
After the meeting, Wagoner told reporters the company had targets for bringing the Volt to market, but he would not reveal them. He said they were moving as fast as possible on the car, but were not obsessed by any timeline.
"It's more can we keep our feet in front of us running every day," he said. Wagoner also said:
A deal appears near between GM, Delphi Corp., its former parts operation, and the United Auto Workers union, but he also would not give a timeline. "My sense is it's coming together," he said. "I tend to think the number of issues is narrowing." Delphi and its investors have been seeking wage reductions from its unions as it tries to emerge from Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.
GM sees no more major announcements on plant closures or job cuts in the U.S. as it seeks to further cut costs.
The company is "entertaining the possibility" of restructuring and selling its medium-duty truck business.
GM is talking with Malaysian automaker Proton about a partnership, although he said that was "more a possibility for us than a probability."
There has been much written about the Commodore which is essentially the G8. If you wanted to know how the G8 is going to drive you could've found out by now. The G8 will be sort of a cheaper version of the 5 series which sounds good to me. It doesnt look like the Malibu, but even if you think it did its handling and power will help you realize its no Malibu (or camry).
"Why not just import the Holden as a, well as a Holden Commodore SS?"
Probably because the steering wheel is on the other side and there are no Holden dealerships in the US AND Holden is an unknown entity in this country. Just my guess.
I totally disagree with your notion that we really dont need more than 200hp in cars today. A car like the G8 would be terribly slow with 200hp due to its weight. 200hp is OK for cars weighing under 3200 lbs or so, but in heavier cars that will not get it done. Sure, the car will be able to cruise on the highway and get around town but it wont move with any authority.
While it pains me to see Saturn offering cash rebates it has to be done. They are finally pushing interesting product and they need to get people into the showrooms.
Saturn now has all the tools it need to succeed either already there or soon to come in. Ironically they are becoming what Chevy should be.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
What is really needed is torque, not horsepower. For example, the FWD northstar engines both had about 300 lb-ft of torque at the peak, but the 275 horsepower version had about 270 lb-ft of torque at 2000 RPMs, while the 300 hp version was more like 250 lb-ft. The basic point here is that an engine tuned for lowend torque, and less horsepower will provide good performance; and, with an axle ratio designed to keep the engine running slower, may give better fuel economy too.
The G8 looks from the pictures are quite mediocure, though perhaps in the metal, before the eyes, it will look better.
Wait and see on styling. But, GM kind of fumbling around when naming cars. Buick model named after a milk, now a Pontiac model G8 named after a world leaders' conference (meeting in Europe this week) and other questionable naming such as Enclave. Think that GM could have done a lot better than G8 such as resurrecting Bonneville, Catalina, LeMans or other great model names from Pontiac's heritage. Buick has resurrected the Riviera name in a recent show car so there is hope for better naming in the future.
Using names from the past that had strong sales and good image/heritage would be positive. Of course, names such as Vega, Cimmaron, Catera, Alante, Citation, Phoenix, Chevette, Fiero, Sunbird, Reatta, Bravada, Rendesvous, Corsica, Aztek, Aurora, etc., have to remain buried forever.
LeMans would have been an excellent name for the model. Unfortunately, GM is trying to take a page from the "Lux-book" for Pontiac with the "Gn" model naming scheme. Worked for Mazda, but Pontiac just doesn't have quite the name-strength Mazda has. To be honest, Mazda is the ONLY mainstream brand using letter/number designators successfully. Pontiac has been trying for a while (Makes sense, as they're supposed to compete with Mazda) but it hasn't really worked for them.
LeMans would have been an excellent name for the model.
Just think how fine the TV or radio commercials could have been when words "Pontiac lay-mah" were used. What class and sophistication in the sound. GM might have even shot some commercials at LeMans in France. Instead, we will hear a clunky "G8". LeMans will be "in" again what with better relations coming between US and France. 24 hour Race is later this month.
personally, I dont buy cars based on the name. I dont really find import names to be any more enticing than GM names. Would you rather GM name vehicles xB, xD, RDX or Veracruz? to be perfectly honest, a lot of the "great" names that people feel GM should resurrect are very irrelevant to many of today's buyers.
Indeed. Try running some of these new names by some normal folks (non-enthusiasts). I would bet that if I ask my wife who makes the Lacrosse she wouldn't know. Same for the Aura. She'd know a Malibu is a Chevy, though. Impala, too.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Don't forget your three B's. BBB = Baby Boomer Bucks !
As names go, I prefer Eldorado over Escalade and Enclave, Etc.
Yeap, you are right, the Scions have no names, yet the xB sort of means something to me. I call it the xBox. The latest xB no longer has the circus car cute look, darn it. Those little, first generation Box always brought a smile to my face. The crossbreeding of a Mini Cooper and a Mini van -- see what happens! Loren
Of course the steering wheel has to go on the left side. And please drop a note to the Aussie's that they are driving on the wrong side of the road.
Pontiac is soon to become an importer. As names go, the G8 means less than Commodore. Although it may sound more like an old car, or something AMC would call a car. OK, call it a G8. Run those Tony Tiger ads and call that car Grrrrrr 8 !!! As for where to sell Holden, I guess the Pontiac dealerships have space on the lots, but so does Saturn.
GM needs to put their cars on a diet. Hey, want to run heavy HP and torque engines, that's fine too. Less weight and power = Grrrreat ! Can I quote you on it being a cheaper version of a BMW 5 series? Loren
Aura you say? Let's see Achieva, Alero, and Aurora. Maybe the Aura is an Oldsmobile? An Opel Vectra, by any other name, is an Aura. Doesn't Vauxhall just use the name Vectra? No Faux there.
Now going to find something to eat at my little enclave, later..... Loren
"The bigger problem is that too many of the current model names GM is offering are also irrelevant to today's (retail) buyers... "
So clever! You are 100% right, thats why GM sales were up more than every automaker other than Toyota last month. Thats what irrelevant cars will do for you.
Insulting vehicles based on their names seems pretty lame to me. Do you really think Toyota is successful because of names like Camry, 4Runner, Yaris and Sienna? I think names are the least of GM's problems, but by all means continue to pile on. One thing I have to remember is that EVERYTHING that GM does is wrong to some people, even the names. Someohow it never occurs to people that not everyone agrees with every opinion. Some people swear GM should go back to old names, others say old names bring back bad memories, others say alpha-numeric names are bad, but some say they are OK. When GM does use old names people get mad because the new cars with the old names arent big RWD body on frame vehicles and thus arent deserving of the "good" names. When GM uses new names for modern FWD cars that have no relation to old RWD nameplates people call for use of the classic names. There is no consensus and thus regardless of what GM does with regards to naming some people will be mad.
1487: So clever! You are 100% right, thats why GM sales were up more than every automaker other than Toyota last month. Thats what irrelevant cars will do for you.
No, it's what higher incentives will do for you.
GM’s May incentives rose 6.1 percent from last May, to $2,950 per vehicle average.
Granted, that is better than the level of incentives for Ford and Chrysler, as Ford’s incentives rose by 4.6 percent to $4,040 per vehicle, while Chrysler's incentives soared by 7.1 percent to an average of $4,178 per vehicle.
But, it is worse than Toyota’s incentives, which averaged $1,140 per vehicle.
And note that the increase in vehicle sales was driven by a few models, and some of those models were obviously sent to fleets.
The Pontiac Grand Prix is up 71 percent...did it suddenly became that much more popular with retail buyers in just one month? I doubt it. Same for the Buick Terraza, up 29 percent.
Definitely not the Yaris...that's quite bad. THey didn't suffer from Echo either...the Echo stunk, hence the name change. Toyota sticks with model names when that model is successful, and since many of their models HAVE been successful, they tend to be very long-lived names and create an impact with buyers.
GM hasn't done so much of that. Each time a model was redesigned it would also get a new name..remember when they went from Cavalier to Cobalt, Corsica to Malibu, Caprice to Impala? Not to mention Tracker to Equinox. Now it's looking like they're going to hang with the Malibu and Impala nameplates a while (especially since the Malibu has been fairly successful).
All of this comes from a melding of the arguments you mentioned....they'd change names because the name of the previous model brought back bad memories of the previous model. Have to see how things work out.
As far as the alphanumeric names, that only works if you've got product and brand enough to back it up. In the case of Mazda and Caddy, it has done so, because they're both strong brands. Pontiac doesn't quite have the product strength yet, since while they advertise "driving excitement" they're really not selling cars with much sportiness.
Well that's perhaps how I differ. I am not mad, nor aiming to insult any car.... well except those that beg to be thumped. Just shining a little light on the subject. And the world will not come to an end if GM got Cavalier about the use of Celebrity names of such Vega brightness, and started slapping SS labels on all too many car. Oops, that was an XLS, or an eXtra Long Sentence. Hey, this shorthand stuff works!
And note that the increase in vehicle sales was driven by a few models, and some of those models were obviously sent to fleets.
Actually overall fleet sales were down again and retail was up. Where did you get your obvious data? Do agree that the old GP is probably partially driven by fleet.
I hope that once the Astra is out there, they will think about offering a smaller model - Astra is moderately large for a compact.
And I hope they get some sort of fuel-saving powertrain options in all the models, small ones included. I know they plan the hybrid for many models, but what about small diesels to cover the period until the Volt powertrain is ready for the road? The Opel Astra and Aura must use diesel engines in Europe, at least as an option.
Or at least get a hybrid powertrain that has more fuel savings then their current one.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
There is no doubt in my mind that Grand Prix sales are almost exclusively fleet at this point. But please remind me: what is a Buick Terraza? I am feeling too lazy to go and look it up - isn't that the now-cancelled minivan? Sales of THAT are up 29%?? If it's the minivan, those are most likely fleet sales too.
I wish GM would keep all its model names as long as they have kept Malibu and Impala, then it would be easier to remember what specific ones actually were. :sick:
I like 62vette's posting of GM insider news. I am in absolute awe that the execs like Wagoner and Lutz have hung on as long as they have over there. It is thanks to them that the turnaround is working, slowly but surely, and I hope the board realizes that. And kudos to the board for allowing them to stay and finish their job rather than cutting and running as they have always done in the past.
I find I'm actually a believer now in the long-term prospects of GM. I wouldn't have said that two years ago, not a chance.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Talked to a Honda owner friend. He will soon be ready to replace his 8 yr old civic with a new car. He didn't know GM has a 100,000 mi powertrain warranty. His 1.6L civic coupe gets 4-5 mpg more than my 3.8L SC Buick coupe. He told me he never did anything to it in the 8 years. Then he said he took it in for a 100,000 mile checkup. The dealer charged him over $1200 for the checkup. I spent $900 maintaining and repairing my same original cost and age Astro in those 8 years (both the loaded '98 astro and the stripped '98 civic were 19k out the door in '98). I admit my Astro had 4 problems to fix but he says his Honda had nothing ever go wrong, even though he spent 50% more on maintenance and repairs (Tires, brakes, oil not included)and it needs a few major repairs now. He, believing Honda's are so superior to GM products, is not planning to consider anything but Honda and Toyota when his next car shopping starts. He said consumer reports has my astro all black dots and his honda all red dots for reliability. In actual comparison, driving in both 8 yr old vehicles for a hour, the '98 honda was discovered to have no a/c and a broken windshield, and everytime the car started off or had a 1-2 or 2-3 shift, the exhaust system banged into the floorpan. It had no auto trans, no power windows, locks, mirrors, rear a/c, or cassette player to break. It had so few options at all. Then he said he also just had the speedometer fixed for the trip out and didn't count that when he said nothing ever went wrong with it. My astro with 104k miles, runs very solid and quiet and needs nothing. This supports all my theories about the B.S. from Honda owners and consumer reports. His statement about 'nothing ever went wrong with the Honda' is typical of consumer reports subscribers and I bet, average Honda raters. There is a severely misguided perception out there.
Seems that everyone, but Cadillac got that minivan. Oh yeah, not a Saab minivan, for now.
I kinda like the idea of a snout up front, as one will not feel as exposed as they do with the smallish nosed minivans. Should be easier to work on too.
I agree the prospects look better for GM than they did two years ago. Add another couple of years, and we shall see a bit more of the total picture. It would appear, from what is seen, that GM is a better than a coin flip for coming out of this alive. Better yet, if they can, over time, make all their goals and produce the most desired products and service, they may not have to revisit hard times for a good time to come. The roller coast will stop and everyone gets off before they get too dizzy from the ride. So far some of the happiest people in the GM world have the be those tied to Saturn.
So far some of the happiest people in the GM world have the be those tied to Saturn.
I went 20 years between GM vehicles. I bought a '79 Sunbird in the spring of 1982 and a '77 Olds Omega in the summer of 1985. Both used, both did nothing to impress me.
In 2002, I bought my first Saturn, a loaded L300. Great car - still have it 4.5 years and 61K later. I now have 3 Saturns - my wife drives a VUE and my daughter an ION. While they may not be the most exciting vehicles out there, we all love the plastic side panels and the dealership experience, both during and after the sale.
Now that Saturn is getting some exciting product, I'm hoping that they will succeed.
Kinda silly to pay $1,200 for a check up on an eight year old car. Better to actually get some things replaced, if spending that much money. He got taken. Trust me, all dealers, including GM have that ability. As for the gas mileage, if it is that close, he may have an ill Civic. It should be greater than 10 MPG difference, even with the foot on the brake and the gas I owned a Corolla from 1998 into mid 2005, and it cost me very little for repairs, say $200 to $300. For air filters, I managed to do that myself - no rocket science. For tune-ups, no problem as the computer in the car allowed for smooth operation all through the years, with 38 MPG on freeway, though I got up to 40 MPG when newer. Heck, $1,200 probably would come close to cover all expenses including oil changes, tires, $300 in repairs say. A lady friend owned an Astro van, and she had pretty darn good luck with the space age looking van. It served her well
I take it you believe the Cobalt to be equal to the Civic / Corolla. And the Malibu is equal to the Accord? Perhaps the Aura XR is The Aura XE is let's say equal to the i4 Accord or better, depending on how you look at it. I guess there is a lot which is purely subjective. Aura XE has more torque, and the Accord i4 better gas mileage. As for smoothness and what revvs well and blah,blah,blah, I won't go there. The arguments for and against seem just as valid to all posting one way or another -- all both sides make some good arguments. As for the interior, the Aura feels more confining and the looks --oops, yet another stumble into subjective. Current Malibu is dead, long live the New Malibu, which is another variant of the G6/Aura and will be better competition to the Japan makes.
As for reliability, results may vary. From those I have talked to that have owned Japan makes for seven to ten year time frames, I find very few of them that had problems. If you are enjoying the ride, the sort of VW love theory, then you may forget and forgive some repairs or quirks along the way. But what does that say about the driving experience? One would hope that the new Hondas are reliable, as they are mostly American made, with lots of American parts. The engine is built in USA. As for the red dot / black dot unfairness, I do see some black dots for say a Honda here and there. They had the now famous transmission problems, and well, I guess it stands out and is so talked about since failures as so far and few in-between.
Now for superiority, that all depends on what a person is looking for and achieving with their vehicle. As for needing repairs, let's say any can be in need of repair at any time, new or old. As for your Astro van, it may very well go to 150K +. Ya never know. My guess the average life is around 150K before serious events occur which may cost more than the van is worth to you. Loren
I take it that you get use to that speedometer in the center of the dash. The Ion is amazing for in-town maneuvers. The steering goes to one finger touch at low speed and you can crank the wheel to make a tight circle. Add in the plastic cladding for fending off the shopping carts, the car to me is an urban, let's go shopping warrior. The seats are a pain for longer freeway driving. The gas mileage and engine get-up-and-go seems to be fine enough to get the job done. The suspension is adequate to a point. The point where you hit a large bump things get a bit rougher. And some thumping noise is heard when you hit bigger dips and bumps. Seems to hold the line better in the wind than did my Corolla.
I guess too many people complained about the wider gap required when fitting plastic door panels compared to the metal, so gone is the signature plastic Saturn. Now people have to park uphill from those nasty shopping carts.
Saturn/Opel dealerships I am sure will be much stronger with the new product. I agree, the plastic cars will be missed. The new Astra may be your daughters next car. After graduation, and big bucks made, the Astra would be fun sized like the Ion, but with Euro flare, handling, and perhaps more horsies under hood. Wonder if the current generation will appreciate the hatchbacks? The hatch is good to have now and then, but I prefer keeping items in truck and not in the open to fly. And the noise level is better in the coupe than the hatch. To each his or her own, no doubt. Loren
I believe 5 mpg difference is possible. I have the S/C 3800 in my '99 Ultra, and get about 33 mpg on the freeway. That's only 5 mpg difference from your Corolla.
Love those 3800s. Love to hear everyone in the boytoy set make fun of the OHV, etc., etc. Trip to Nashville over weekend: 34, 33.5, 35 for segments going down. Return was 35.5--kid drove large part and there was a tailwind. These are with 3 adults, luggage trunk and back seat, and air conditioning running, with a speed of 65-70 for trip down.
I'd buy another 3800 LeSabre tomorrow if something happens to one of mine. It'd be a flip between a LaCrosse or Lucerne.
Perhaps they could swap those 35 MPG 3800 engines for those i4 engines in the Cobalt so they can achieve higher gas mileage. Pretty remarkable. Could replace the engines in the Aura XE & the Aura Greenline with those 3800 engines. :shades: Three adults, with luggage, air conditioning on, and it bests 20% over the government numbers for gas mileage. Interesting. I owned an Olds 98 with that engine, though it was buy 150HP back when. I got up to 10% over with only myself and the luggage on a longer trip. Figured out to 29+ and maybe, just maybe 30 MPG, with wind to the back and a rabbits foot for luck. Managed close to 30 one time with a Stealth, and those are what, say 26 MPG rated. Say 15%, with air on and pretty flat roads.
While you are at the dealer trying out that LaCrosse with the old engine, jump in one for a spin in with the 3.6 V6. Or try the XE and XR out at the Saturn dealership. Let us know what ya think. Loren
The mileage is highway only. There's no more than one or two exits for food, rest room, or fuel between Dayton and Nashville. It's ideal. Start stopping and starting and the average drops.
I'm back home here in Western Michigan. The Turf has changed and keeps growing. I see signs of job growth and the economy recovering but it will take an administration that uses common sense to save america and this state.
My family in the UAW 62' says they hear if the contract goes well and the work rules are loosened they believe GM, will build modern plants here in the U.S. once again.
Well, in theory, considering the weight the i4 would have to pull, and even if you added 10%, you would be getting 35 MPG as a miracle figure with that i4. So, one could ask, why not just add a 3800 engine in there with a shoe horn. And it would be the same HP as the turbo. A bit more nose heavy, but what the heck, it is a heavy little guy anyway.
I do know there is a serious differenc in performance and gas mileage between the GM 3800 and the Ford 3800. Just look at the HP and gas mileage differences over the years between the Camaro and Mustang. Looks like gas mileage is not worse for the Replicar Stangs, as that V6 used in the SUV is not so fuel efficient. May as well get the V8. Some talk of Ford going with the 3.5 V6 engine some day. Makes sense. The 25 MPG is not so hot for a six, with an automatic. The 3800 gets decent gas mileage and the torque is OK. Once ya try the new 3.6 though, with even more HP and rev loving power even when up beyond the highway speeds, you could get hooked..... or maybe not. Can we agree the new engines make a better exhaust note? Will agree the OHV engine is something I could live with, especially if it is in a Corvette :shades: It's all good, I suppose. Loren
Comments
I wouldn't say that. Ford has been sharing platforms with Mazda since the '80s, we got Americanized versions of the Mondeo and Focus, the Lincoln LS platform was the basis for a Jaguar something-or-other, and the 500/Taurus and its ilk started out as a Volvo. Ford started on the globalization thing long before GM did, but GM fully committed to it several years before Ford (i.e. when Mulally showed up).
Guess it could happen-never say never.
Loren
Loren
The rest of what he was saying was good. Of course I'd expect Waggoner to paint a good picture since he's the guy in charge, but it was mostly accurate.
Engineering has / is being done on the platforms in the various countries of origin. BUT, there is a huge amount of person ell being moved all over the world to assure regional needs are met. many of my friends are in Australia/Germany/China/Korea and many others travel while based here.
All cars other than Sigma are based on platforms outside the states.
Ford is nowhere near this.
-Rocky
-Rocky
I do not know what the G8 will be like. The GTO was not noted for great handling. I assume it to be powerful, though the Camry for 2007 is powerful, with great gas mileage. The G8 looks from the pictures are quite mediocure, though perhaps in the metal, before the eyes, it will look better. Or perhaps it gets some styling upgrades. With gas at $3.50 per gallon, whatever engine which is used better get closer to 30 MPG freeway, than 20 MPG. Anything over 200HP is going to be more than enough. Unless racing at the track, not sure what one can do with over 300HP. Most cars scoot along rather well with over 160HP in the lighter weights, and for those carrying the extra pounds, perhaps say anything over 200 or 225HP to carry the bulk is required. If too fat it is time for aluminum metals to add, or to take away some size to the beast.
Is this G8 the Commodore SS? Not bad looking. The front looks better as a Commodore (and he has a name) than the G8. The side profiles of the GM cars are starting to all look alike, though I guess it is OK. Why not just import the Holden as a, well as a Holden Commodore SS? Let's see a commodore and SS name plate both used together -- I'm thinking about that one. :shades: Is that a commodore of the secret service or is that ???
The car is OK, but not that killer hit -- that once in a decade sort of awe inspiring look I know GM design team can do. Now the Solstice and Sky had that appeal of a show topper, and gosh that looks really new look about them.
Loren
That to me was less discouraging than observing several Auras on my trip to LA last weekend with the rental car bar codes on the windows. I was not aware GM sold Saturns to the rental companies. Especially not new models that show promise. :-(
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Contracts are coming up so I would think the automakers would be looking for a two tier wage system, at least for benefits.
Where in MIchigan are you?
GM trimmed automotive-operations costs by $6.8 billion in 2006, $800 million more than projected, by shedding jobs and shutting plants. The cuts whittled fixed costs to 30 percent of revenue. The goal is 25 percent by 2010, and Wagoner reiterated last month that he plans to cut expenses by $9 billion this year.
GM's fixed costs are forecast to fall to $50 billion this year from $55 billion in 2005, including a reduction to $33 billion in North America from $41 billion.
Wagoner has identified $9 billion in cuts from the $55 billion in fixed costs reported at the end of 2005. That leaves about $7 billion, in some combination of reduced costs and increased revenue, to meet his financial targets.
“For 2007, we're building on and accelerating our progress,” Wagoner said. GM will continue working to cut health- care and labor costs in North America and increase sales outside the U.S.
"It's more can we keep our feet in front of us running every day," he said. Wagoner also said:
A deal appears near between GM, Delphi Corp., its former parts operation, and the United Auto Workers union, but he also would not give a timeline. "My sense is it's coming together," he said. "I tend to think the number of issues is narrowing." Delphi and its investors have been seeking wage reductions from its unions as it tries to emerge from Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.
GM sees no more major announcements on plant closures or job cuts in the U.S. as it seeks to further cut costs.
The company is "entertaining the possibility" of restructuring and selling its medium-duty truck business.
GM is talking with Malaysian automaker Proton about a partnership, although he said that was "more a possibility for us than a probability."
"Why not just import the Holden as a, well as a Holden Commodore SS?"
Probably because the steering wheel is on the other side and there are no Holden dealerships in the US AND Holden is an unknown entity in this country. Just my guess.
I totally disagree with your notion that we really dont need more than 200hp in cars today. A car like the G8 would be terribly slow with 200hp due to its weight. 200hp is OK for cars weighing under 3200 lbs or so, but in heavier cars that will not get it done. Sure, the car will be able to cruise on the highway and get around town but it wont move with any authority.
Saturn now has all the tools it need to succeed either already there or soon to come in. Ironically they are becoming what Chevy should be.
Wait and see on styling. But, GM kind of fumbling around when naming cars. Buick model named after a milk, now a Pontiac model G8 named after a world leaders' conference (meeting in Europe this week) and other questionable naming such as Enclave. Think that GM could have done a lot better than G8 such as resurrecting Bonneville, Catalina, LeMans or other great model names from Pontiac's heritage. Buick has resurrected the Riviera name in a recent show car so there is hope for better naming in the future.
Using names from the past that had strong sales and good image/heritage would be positive. Of course, names such as Vega, Cimmaron, Catera, Alante, Citation, Phoenix, Chevette, Fiero, Sunbird, Reatta, Bravada, Rendesvous, Corsica, Aztek, Aurora, etc., have to remain buried forever.
Will the G8 be Gr8 or average.
Just think how fine the TV or radio commercials could have been when words "Pontiac lay-mah" were used. What class and sophistication in the sound. GM might have even shot some commercials at LeMans in France. Instead, we will hear a clunky "G8". LeMans will be "in" again what with better relations coming between US and France. 24 hour Race is later this month.
The bigger problem is that too many of the current model names GM is offering are also irrelevant to today's (retail) buyers...
As names go, I prefer Eldorado over Escalade and Enclave, Etc.
Yeap, you are right, the Scions have no names, yet the xB sort of means something to me. I call it the xBox. The latest xB no longer has the circus car cute look, darn it. Those little, first generation Box always brought a smile to my face. The crossbreeding of a Mini Cooper and a Mini van -- see what happens!
Loren
Pontiac is soon to become an importer. As names go, the G8 means less than Commodore. Although it may sound more like an old car, or something AMC would call a car. OK, call it a G8. Run those Tony Tiger ads and call that car Grrrrrr 8 !!! As for where to sell Holden, I guess the Pontiac dealerships have space on the lots, but so does Saturn.
GM needs to put their cars on a diet. Hey, want to run heavy HP and torque engines, that's fine too. Less weight and power = Grrrreat ! Can I quote you on it being a cheaper version of a BMW 5 series?
Loren
Now going to find something to eat at my little enclave, later..... Loren
Like Buick?
So clever! You are 100% right, thats why GM sales were up more than every automaker other than Toyota last month. Thats what irrelevant cars will do for you.
No, it's what higher incentives will do for you.
GM’s May incentives rose 6.1 percent from last May, to $2,950 per vehicle average.
Granted, that is better than the level of incentives for Ford and Chrysler, as Ford’s incentives rose by 4.6 percent to $4,040 per vehicle, while Chrysler's incentives soared by 7.1 percent to an average of $4,178 per vehicle.
But, it is worse than Toyota’s incentives, which averaged $1,140 per vehicle.
And note that the increase in vehicle sales was driven by a few models, and some of those models were obviously sent to fleets.
The Pontiac Grand Prix is up 71 percent...did it suddenly became that much more popular with retail buyers in just one month? I doubt it. Same for the Buick Terraza, up 29 percent.
GM hasn't done so much of that. Each time a model was redesigned it would also get a new name..remember when they went from Cavalier to Cobalt, Corsica to Malibu, Caprice to Impala? Not to mention Tracker to Equinox. Now it's looking like they're going to hang with the Malibu and Impala nameplates a while (especially since the Malibu has been fairly successful).
All of this comes from a melding of the arguments you mentioned....they'd change names because the name of the previous model brought back bad memories of the previous model. Have to see how things work out.
As far as the alphanumeric names, that only works if you've got product and brand enough to back it up. In the case of Mazda and Caddy, it has done so, because they're both strong brands. Pontiac doesn't quite have the product strength yet, since while they advertise "driving excitement" they're really not selling cars with much sportiness.
Just trying to be helpful,
Loren
:shades:
Actually overall fleet sales were down again and retail was up. Where did you get your obvious data? Do agree that the old GP is probably partially driven by fleet.
And I hope they get some sort of fuel-saving powertrain options in all the models, small ones included. I know they plan the hybrid for many models, but what about small diesels to cover the period until the Volt powertrain is ready for the road? The Opel Astra and Aura must use diesel engines in Europe, at least as an option.
Or at least get a hybrid powertrain that has more fuel savings then their current one.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I wish GM would keep all its model names as long as they have kept Malibu and Impala, then it would be easier to remember what specific ones actually were. :sick:
I like 62vette's posting of GM insider news. I am in absolute awe that the execs like Wagoner and Lutz have hung on as long as they have over there. It is thanks to them that the turnaround is working, slowly but surely, and I hope the board realizes that. And kudos to the board for allowing them to stay and finish their job rather than cutting and running as they have always done in the past.
I find I'm actually a believer now in the long-term prospects of GM. I wouldn't have said that two years ago, not a chance.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Yep, 1.7 and 1.9L turbodiesels for the Astra and
AuraVectra.I kinda like the idea of a snout up front, as one will not feel as exposed as they do with the smallish nosed minivans. Should be easier to work on too.
I agree the prospects look better for GM than they did two years ago. Add another couple of years, and we shall see a bit more of the total picture. It would appear, from what is seen, that GM is a better than a coin flip for coming out of this alive. Better yet, if they can, over time, make all their goals and produce the most desired products and service, they may not have to revisit hard times for a good time to come. The roller coast will stop and everyone gets off before they get too dizzy from the ride. So far some of the happiest people in the GM world have the be those tied to Saturn.
Loren
I went 20 years between GM vehicles. I bought a '79 Sunbird in the spring of 1982 and a '77 Olds Omega in the summer of 1985. Both used, both did nothing to impress me.
In 2002, I bought my first Saturn, a loaded L300. Great car - still have it 4.5 years and 61K later. I now have 3 Saturns - my wife drives a VUE and my daughter an ION. While they may not be the most exciting vehicles out there, we all love the plastic side panels and the dealership experience, both during and after the sale.
Now that Saturn is getting some exciting product, I'm hoping that they will succeed.
I take it you believe the Cobalt to be equal to the Civic / Corolla.
And the Malibu is equal to the Accord? Perhaps the Aura XR is
The Aura XE is let's say equal to the i4 Accord or better, depending on how you look at it. I guess there is a lot which is purely subjective. Aura XE has more torque, and the Accord i4 better gas mileage. As for smoothness and what revvs well and blah,blah,blah, I won't go there. The arguments for and against seem just as valid to all posting one way or another -- all both sides make some good arguments. As for the interior, the Aura feels more confining and the looks --oops, yet another stumble into subjective. Current Malibu is dead, long live the New Malibu, which is another variant of the G6/Aura and will be better competition to the Japan makes.
As for reliability, results may vary. From those I have talked to that have owned Japan makes for seven to ten year time frames, I find very few of them that had problems. If you are enjoying the ride, the sort of VW love theory, then you may forget and forgive some repairs or quirks along the way. But what does that say about the driving experience? One would hope that the new Hondas are reliable, as they are mostly American made, with lots of American parts. The engine is built in USA. As for the red dot / black dot unfairness, I do see some black dots for say a Honda here and there. They had the now famous transmission problems, and well, I guess it stands out and is so talked about since failures as so far and few in-between.
Now for superiority, that all depends on what a person is looking for and achieving with their vehicle. As for needing repairs, let's say any can be in need of repair at any time, new or old. As for your Astro van, it may very well go to 150K +. Ya never know. My guess the average life is around 150K before serious events occur which may cost more than the van is worth to you.
Loren
I guess too many people complained about the wider gap required when fitting plastic door panels compared to the metal, so gone is the signature plastic Saturn. Now people have to park uphill from those nasty shopping carts.
Saturn/Opel dealerships I am sure will be much stronger with the new product. I agree, the plastic cars will be missed. The new Astra may be your daughters next car. After graduation, and big bucks made, the Astra would be fun sized like the Ion, but with Euro flare, handling, and perhaps more horsies under hood. Wonder if the current generation will appreciate the hatchbacks? The hatch is good to have now and then, but I prefer keeping items in truck and not in the open to fly. And the noise level is better in the coupe than the hatch. To each his or her own, no doubt.
Loren
I believe 5 mpg difference is possible. I have the S/C 3800 in my '99 Ultra, and get about 33 mpg on the freeway. That's only 5 mpg difference from your Corolla.
I'd buy another 3800 LeSabre tomorrow if something happens to one of mine. It'd be a flip between a LaCrosse or Lucerne.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
While you are at the dealer trying out that LaCrosse with the old engine, jump in one for a spin in with the 3.6 V6. Or try the XE and XR out at the Saturn dealership. Let us know what ya think.
Loren
I wonder what I'd get in a Cobalt...
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Grand Rapids, Mi pal.
I'm back home here in Western Michigan. The Turf has changed and keeps growing. I see signs of job growth and the economy recovering but it will take an administration that uses common sense to save america and this state.
My family in the UAW 62' says they hear if the contract goes well and the work rules are loosened they believe GM, will build modern plants here in the U.S. once again.
-Rocky
I do know there is a serious differenc in performance and gas mileage between the GM 3800 and the Ford 3800. Just look at the HP and gas mileage differences over the years between the Camaro and Mustang. Looks like gas mileage is not worse for the Replicar Stangs, as that V6 used in the SUV is not so fuel efficient. May as well get the V8. Some talk of Ford going with the 3.5 V6 engine some day. Makes sense. The 25 MPG is not so hot for a six, with an automatic. The 3800 gets decent gas mileage and the torque is OK.
Once ya try the new 3.6 though, with even more HP and rev loving power even when up beyond the highway speeds, you could get hooked..... or maybe not. Can we agree the new engines make a better exhaust note? Will agree the OHV engine is something I could live with, especially if it is in a Corvette :shades: It's all good, I suppose.
Loren