The Torrent, the G5 and the Vibe. And the minivan. Of the 3 they still sell, that's half their lineup. When they still had the minivan it was more than half. The Vibe has some different skinning than the Matrix, but mechanically it's the same vehicle. Same with the G5/Cobalt, and the Torrent/Equinox. And the minivan...shudder.
I think that what Phil means regarding the statement "Toyota and Honda no longer have impressive reliability" is that they are no longer in a league of their own. They are both, in reality, just another auto company. We perhaps should not be "impressed" by their product. I for one, after owning a Toyota Sienna for nine years, am in total agreement.
I for one, after owning a Toyota Sienna for nine years, am in total agreement
I consider 9 years long term. If we are truly interested in the environment it should be the average. I also think it should be where reliability studies focus. If a vehicle gives a person 9 years of trouble free driving, it would be considered a reliable vehicle. Aside from normal tires, brakes, belts, etc. I would like to see our government mandate vehicle warranties to 10 years and 150k miles like they did on the hybrid batteries. Why not give a person some peace of mind that he can keep a car for 10 years without it costing an arm and a leg to keep running? Maybe GM will lead the way
The vehicle twas' great up to the 6 year mark, then things just started goin' wrong. That's history now, I'm on to another brand, so far so good. Of course I like your idea re: 10 year/150K warranty. Talkin' about a great selling feature!
Guess the real challenge is for reliability and quality of the car in years 4 -7 say, as they age gracefully or not. Wonder what percentage of people hold on the a car for greater than 7 years???
I think most people which own those cars are impressed, those test driving the cars before buying a new car, are impressed, and that is why they are still buying the Japan makes. I test drove the G6 and it was OK, as in yeah alright, Drove the Aura XE which is a bit better and the XR which competes very well with the Japan makes. Overall cars from GM, Ford, Hyundai were all close, but it was like not quite there. Perhaps the Aura XR and the New Malibu are equals. Of course you can go upscale to a CTS, but in the same price range, most seem alright, but not 100%. I guess you could argue that GM is now as good as Honda and Toyota, and to that I say depends on the car in question. Chrysler cars are unique so there really is no one on one comparison. Ford is alright. Yes, I know the Fusion is tops in quality, built in Mexico.
One on one, the Cobalt vs the Civic or Corolla = nahhh, the last two are in a league of their own, as you say. The Astra may be more interesting. Ford? Chrysler? No significant small car, unless you count the Mazda3 as a Ford.
The Accord SE V6 was too good a deal to pass up, but I came close to buying the Aura XR, and considered the XE at one time too. That I will buy the notion of all things equal. The Impala, well they are larger than the Camry, so when size and price matters, perhaps chalk one up for the bigger boy. And the competition for the Prius is? Nada. Best small truck? There is Tacoma and then there is what ??? A good large truck? Sure Chevy, Ford and Dodge for the big boys. Tundra is in the running though as the years go by. Wish GM would get a new supplier for running lights and taillights, as I see too many SUV and trucks with but one eye, or tail light working. Looks wise Silverado design is pretty good looking. Dodge had the boldest look, but it is not only getting old, the second design seemed too over the top. Ford's flat sided look wins for most boring.
As for reliability of Honda and Toyota being like all the rest, all I can say is check out the cars you are interesting in, and see how the data looks. Initial quality means they arrived in one piece. Reliability year after year for decades; priceless! Innovations in engine building, car handling, and new improvements in automobiles safety features, ergonomics, and so many things come to play. I don't know, you tell me, are Honda and Toyota just another auto company? Is GM yet another car company, or somehow superior in some way? Looks like they are first and foremost done the best work with the SUV and trucks in current times. Then secondly one looks towards Cadillac as hanging in there, while Lincoln looks more like a lost cause. The CTS has a good record for reliability and is a new car, or relatively new car. The rest of the line is adequate I suppose. That Caddy crossover, I guess one could call it, is something which catches the eye. And of course the Escalade is top world of bling lines.
So if Toyota, Honda, (other foreign cars), and GM are pretty much equal for reliability, in other words that day is now for a level field of cars to choose from for reliability, then what next? What sets apart one car from another. Which GM cars today have an edge judging by those extra good features, or values, or style & handling,over the competition? Loren
As far as owning a vehicle longterm goes, I really think its hard to compare with GM's full size trucks. My father has a 1990 1500 4x4 with over 200k miles on it, pulls lots of junk with it, still runs perfectly. I have a 2000 z71 with 105k miles on it. It drives just like when I drove it off the lot.
I think reliability is totally summed up for the most part in how you take care of your vehicle.
The guy that owns the local water and Ice store has a 2001 Suburban. I asked how he liked it. It has 211k miles with nothing but battery, brakes, tires and belts replaced. He would not own anything else. It is shiny black and looks like new. I miss my Suburban a lot. I should have never sold it and bought this new truck.
Guess the real challenge is for reliability and quality of the car in years 4 -7 say, as they age gracefully or not. Wonder what percentage of people hold on the a car for greater than 7 years???
Good question. The dilemma is that the economy rides on more frequent car sales. Now my wife and I keep cars a long time. But if everybody did it would be good for the environment, bad for the auto business.
Mileage I've had on my cars at sale: 235K (bought used at 63K), 18 yrs 110K, 6 yrs 135K, 9 yrs 88K, 6 yrs 110K, 6 yrs 221K, 13 yrs (still driving this one, a 1994 Mercury Villager)
Not to rain on this GM truck parade, but my uncle has a 1997 Silverado, half-ton truck. I think it has about 120,000 miles on it. Transmission rebuild #1 came up around 60-70,000 miles, covered under an extended warranty thankfully. But because of that warranty, I'm guessing the dealership wasn't getting as much $ as they would have if my uncle had to pay for it out of pocket, so they took their sweet time with it. Like about a month.
Transmission rebuild #2 came up around 108,000 miles, back in the spring of 2006. Reverse had gone out, and so had two of the forward gears (can't remember, but I think it was 2 and 4). That one was about $1860, done by a local shop that I trust. I think they turned it around in two days.
Now other than the disposable transmissions, which I hear is actually a common problem with GM's half-ton trucks, it's been a pretty good truck.
He's talked about getting a new truck and giving me his '97, so I can "upgrade" from my '85 Silverado. However, I dunno if I really want to do that. Those $1800 transmissions kinda scare me, whereas the THM350C in my '85 is comparatively bulletproof. And much cheaper to rebuild if it does crap out! Plus, it's a bigger truck (extended cab), but less utility (6 1/2 foot bed, whereas mine has an 8-foot).
So, sorry Uncle. I appreciate the effort, but I think I'm gonna hang on to what I have!
I had a neighbor a few years back who had an Expedition, around a 1998 I believe. He used to go through rear-ends on a regular basis, and I think a transmission somewhere along the line. He replaced it with the newer style that came out around 2002 or so? I think he had problems with that one, too, but he moved soon after, so I don't know how it held out for the long term.
Just figured I should throw in that Ford horror story to balance out my GM horror story. :P
Either Honda and Toyota have fallen or the competition has caught up to them. I guess the only thing they have going now is the "resale value." That'll change over time too!
Besides the interior upgrade (much needed btw) most of those are available on the other two. This year, they get the 263hp 3.6 and 6 speed autos as well, or at least that is what is proposed for the Pontiac. How do we know it handles better? I read that Bob Lutz said this new Vue should outhandle the BMW X5, is that what we are basing this claim on?
...euro-design suspension, different steering rack, performance model option...
Performance model option is a bunch of tacked on ground effects and such, but no power upgrade or advantage over the other two... Correct me if I am wrong I guess.
Again, I see no real reason why the Vue is going to be any more exciting than the Torrent. And what happened to Pontiac being the "Excitment" division? Maybe now the that the Vue is the "hot one" lol, the other two need to be dropped? That's all I am saying.
Either Honda and Toyota have fallen or the competition has caught up to them.
Both, really. The domestics finally got their act halfway together and the big Japanese makes shifted their lineup toward US-specific models, so both groups have regressed toward a mean.
Either Honda and Toyota have fallen or the competition has caught up to them. I guess the only thing they have going now is the "resale value." That'll change over time too!
"only thing going"????
Apparently GM has been making progress, but other mfrs have not been standing still. GM has to catch Honda, Toyota.
Time for a reality check. Look at Consumer Reports, April, 2007 issue on pages 11,17,23,25,80,81.
Chart on page 23 covers model years 1997 to 2006 and shows all brands bunched up at one-year point, but Honda and Toyota still ahead. As vehicles get older, the gap widens between Honda/Toyota and all of the others. Obviously, it remains to be seen if this graph in future April issues of CR shows GM or anybody catching Honda/Toyota.
Is it possible that GM in model years 2006 and 2007 significantly closed the gap with Honda, Toyota? April 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, etc issues of CR will have the answer.
On page 80, CR lists "Good Bets" in used cars and the list is loaded with Honda, Acura, Lexus, Toyota. GM has 3 cars listed of which 2 are Toyota design/engineered.
On page 81, CR lists "Bad Bets" in used cars and the list has many GM brands and not a single Honda, Acura, Lexus or Toyota.
On page 81, CR lists "Vehicles to Avoid, and the list has numerous GM models and no Lexus nor Toyota. There is one Acura model, RSX 06. There is one Honda model Passport 97-00, 02 which was a rebadged Isuzu.
Oh boy, you really dont know much about the vehicles in question. The Torrent will have hydraulic steering and a sports suspension. The base Torrent/equinox arent sports SUVs, they are just regular crossovers. I think that 70+ more hp, 18" wheels and an upgraded suspension will do wonders for the Torrent.
The G5 base model isnt sporty, but the GT is respectable. C&D just tested one and its handling and braking were top notch for a compact in this price range.
I am not a fan of the Vibe, but it did have some sportiness when it had the 180hp engine but Toyota didnt want to upgrade the engine to meet new emissions standards so they killed it. In its current form the Vibe is trash, but supposedly a new model is coming in 2008.
There is only so much sport you can get with cars in the $18k-$30k price range. Pontiacs arent BMWS, at least not yet, but the same could be said of Mazda and Nissan even though they have sporty reputations.
You just proved my point. The "driving exitement" isn't pervasive, because it's not strong throughout the brand, only on higher level models.
There is only so much sport you can get with cars in the $18k-$30k price range
Nissan isn't quite so good at it, but Mazda manages to do it...EVERYTHING they build gets a sport suspension and steering rack AT MINIMUM, hence the "Zoom-zoom" sporty reputation and image works for them. "Sport" doesn't necessarily mean big wheels and engines. You don't have to be BMW, true, but it would be better to emulate the competition here, which is Mazda. There's a reason Mazda has a sporty reputation and Pontiac doesn't.
Heck, SATURN manages to be sporty in that price range: see the VUE, and the upcoming Astra (I hear the Aura XE is a pretty nice handling vehicle also). That's why Pontiac is the next logical destination for the incoming Opels.
Would it be SUCH a hassle to at least give the Torrent and G5 sport suspensions and steering in their base forms? Pontiac isn't supposed to be selling snoozeboxes; people looking for snoozeboxes go to Toyota or Chevy.
A rebated Equinox, Cobalt and a Matrix -- oh joy! At Pontiac, we build excitement! Or re-badge cars. Only hope for driving excitement perhaps are the re-badged Holdens. And they could be imported as Saturn World Imports - what's the difference.
At one time the most reliable Pontiac / GM car was the Vibe, or Toyota Matrix -- oh that's right, it's all in people's heads, and that never happened. All the data was altered by a vast left wind conspiracy group. Loren
"You just proved my point. The "driving exitement" isn't pervasive, because it's not strong throughout the brand, only on higher level models. "
Same applies to other brands in this price range. You think a base model Altima or Mazda 6 are real sports sedans? Think again. POntiac is not BMW and their prices reflect that, they are in a lower league. I forgot you own a 3 so you are incredibly partial towards MAzda and incapable of being objective about their lineup. I dont think a base model 3 with 148hp and 15" wheels is that sporty, but thats just me. My guess is if there was a G5 GT sedan it would be able to hold its own against the midlevel 3 with 2.3L engine. I would most definitely put the Solstice GXP up agaisnt the Miata and the G6 GTP up against the top FWD mazda 6. The MS 6 is a more serious sedan, but its very small volme and expensive.
"Heck, SATURN manages to be sporty in that price range: see the VUE, and the upcoming Astra (I hear the Aura XE is a pretty nice handling vehicle also). That's why Pontiac is the next logical destination for the incoming Opels. "
The new Vue isnt all that sporty and neither is the 2007 model. The main difference between the 2007 Vue and the Torrent is that the Vue has a 250hp Honda engine which makes it much faster. It was never lauded for being sporty though. The Astra should provide decent handling but its underpowered and thus its hard to consider it a sports compact. Its the same car as the G5 underneath the skin so I dont understand how you could have so much praise for it when you trash the cobalt/G5.
"Would it be SUCH a hassle to at least give the Torrent and G5 sport suspensions and steering in their base forms?"
A lot of people dont want that, even BMW doesnt do that. Why would Pontiac make sport suspensions standard if BMW does do so? Its quite obvious that some people favor ride quality over sportiness.
lets not get into CR, the problems with their data are numerous and I for one do not trust them at all. I can guarantee you that regardless of how much GM improves you will not see much of a difference in how they rate GM vehicles in road test or reliability. The mere notion that Toyota and Honda can improve their reliability every single year with no bumps in the road is ridiculous. If you read CR they always say domestics are getting better, but at the same time the Japanese get better at the same (or greater) rate and the gap barely closes. The problems with various Toyota products in recent years never seem to register on the CR surveys for some reason and every toyota has a squeaky clean record.
As for used cars, if I'm not buying one I dont see what value CR's "Best Bets" list has for me. If CR says that the best 5 year old cars are all HOndas, thats fine but if I'm buying new I dont care.
"At one time the most reliable Pontiac / GM car was the Vibe, or Toyota Matrix -- oh that's right, it's all in people's heads, and that never happened. All the data was altered by a vast left wind conspiracy group. "
I would like to see our government mandate vehicle warranties to 10 years and 150k
And while big brother is doing that lets make sure my DVD player last 3 years and my dishwasher 5 years and my shaver 4 years and my water heater 10 years and my pencil sharpener 4 years and my lawn mower 5 years and.....
Guess the real challenge is for reliability and quality of the car in years 4 -7 say, as they age gracefully or not. Wonder what percentage of people hold on the a car for greater than 7 years???
Less than 20% if they bought new. 80% no longer have the car they bought new after 5 years.
Altima, Mazda6, and Miata vs. Pontiac - that easy, Pontiac loses. And a minivan or SUV is not driving excitement, though I guess you could consider a Porsche Cayenne as fun to drive.
At one time the most reliable Pontiac / GM car was the Vibe, or Toyota Matrix
Actually the matrix scored quite a bit higher than the Vibe by CR for a couple years. They got crap for it and the next year they combined them into one vehicle as far as the reliability data was concerned. So yes, they did alter the data by combining them.
Why not hold the manufacturer responsible for what they sell? I know some states require a contractor to stand behind the homes they build for 10 years. I think it would push automakers more toward reliability. Most cars today are like underwear, disposable after a short lifespan. If you put a lot of miles on a car then 4-7 years is reasonable. I sold my Suburban sadly after 7 and a half years with less than 47K miles on it. I should of kept it instead of falling into the "I need a new vehicle" trap.
I believe homes have about a 50 year life. So 10 years would be 20%. If cars have a 10 year life then 20% would be 2 years and all manufacturers have at least that much warranty. If you want cars to have a 20 year life then that would be 4 years and many do offer that warranty.
If buyers were that worried they would be buying Hyundais/Kias/Buicks/Cadillacs/GM in droves in that order and the others would go out of business. Not happening.
Andersson was recognized Wednesday by the Rainbow PUSH Coalition for GM's work with minority suppliers.
Jesse Jackson, the coalition's president and founder, has long urged automakers to boost their spending with minority suppliers. Last year, GM spent more than $5 billion with minority suppliers, or more than 11 percent of its purchases from companies based in the United States.
Jackson gave Andersson the coalition's first Trade Advocate Award during a ceremony in Chicago.
I wonder what the other OEM's have?
The Big 3 domestic automakers, the Chrysler Group, Ford and GM, have traditionally been the leaders in purchasing from minority-owned suppliers. But as their market share has fallen, so has their production and the number of parts that they need.
Couple that with the never-ending pressure on all suppliers to cut prices to remain competitive in a consolidating global industry and minority-owned automotive suppliers find themselves in an inescapable vice that keeps squeezing them tighter.
You do realize that your shinny new car will soon become a used car one day. Any car which is not good in years five through seven say, was perhaps a bit shaky in reliability and solidness in years three through five. When I am looking at new cars, I sometimes ask to drive a used version of the car first. You can drive it harder, can listen for squeaks, and feel if it is lose or tight once it has some miles on it. Heck, even a Yugo held up while parked on the lot -- well most did.
Of course if you are judging a car to buy you must drive the most current version as well. And then there are the apples and oranges times when they change an engine or transmission completely and the evaluation of the previous years cars may be meaningless. Still, in most cases, if the models are similar, do a run in an older broken in car to see if they have a pre-owned solid feel or that used and broken feel how some older cars in a year or two had back when. If you buy and trade-in a car every two to three years, I guess it doesn't matter as most cars last that long even back three decades ago, and if ya get that stinker, it is gone soon anyway.
Looks like years 2002 to present have been good for GM on the car reliability rating. Now we have the period of time when things were looking bad for GM, say 2005 to 2008 period to look at on the CR survey when it comes out in 2009. That should be interesting. If the problems at Delphi and the company as a whole do not translate into lower numbers in years '05-'08 say, then it is for solid trend. They could pass the other makes of cars, and they will show the world great consistency during trying times. This would go down in history as a major accomplishment in automotive lifetime. Loren
Sick of paying $40 or more to fill up your tank? Worried about global warming? If so, you might be interested in the advanced drive systems that student engineers showed off in downtown Detroit on Thursday.
As gas prices remain above $3 a gallon, teams of college students involved in the Challenge X automotive engineering competition used a variety of advanced propulsion technologies. Their goal was to increase fuel efficiency and make vehicles more environmentally friendly without sacrificing their appeal to consumers.
The propulsion systems aren't planned for production right away, but top engineers from General Motors Corp. and the U.S. Department of Energy said the students' work could influence future product decisions, help address concerns about the nation's dependence on foreign oil and limit the emissions believed to cause global warming.
"I think the work these young people are doing is going to help solve our energy problems," said John Mizroch, a deputy assistant secretary for the Department of Energy. The teams, which assembled at GM's world headquarters in the Renaissance Center, built systems to adapt Chevrolet Equinox SUVs to use a variety of alternative fuels. For the competition, the teams were graded not only on environmental impact, but also on traditional consumer considerations, including acceleration, ride and handling and towing capability.
The winning team from Mississippi State University powered its Equinox with a parallel hybrid system that uses a 1.9-liter GM direct-injection, turbo-diesel engine paired with an electric motor to power the back wheels.
The team's propulsion system captures the gasoline equivalent of better than 35 miles per gallon, emits slightly less carbon dioxide than traditional petroleum-fueled vehicles and uses 20 percent less petroleum than the average vehicle.
The system's fuel economy compares with the 34-mile-per-gallon combined fuel economy rating on the Ford Escape Hybrid and the 29 m.p.g. rating for the Saturn Vue Hybrid and Toyota Highlander Hybrid.
GM has already hired 40 students who have worked on Challenge X vehicles in the past three years and expects to extend offers to as many as a dozen current team members as early as next week, Burns said.
The Aura just added another accolade to its trophy case, topping Strategic Vision's Total Quality Experience "medium car" category. It tied with Nissan's esteemed but under-appreciated Maxima and beat out the Toyota Camry, not to mention other segment stalwarts such as Hyundai's Sonata.
In fact, the entire Saturn brand finished fifth out of 21 non-luxury brands in Strategic Vision's report, three spots higher than last year. Even more pertinent is that Saturn's jump to brand respectability dragged GM kicking and screaming into a tie for fourth place among automakers.
More importantly, though, than that position is who General Motors is tied with. Yes, folks, tied for fourth overall in the company's initial ownership experience is Toyota. Yup, the brand that recently made headlines for kicking the General to the sidelines – mainly because its cars are perceived as more reliable than creaky old domestics –could do no better than fourth.
Of course, that flies in the face of virtually all accepted wisdom, as Toyota holds a hallowed place among consumers as the automaker that can do no wrong. It also contradicts that other significant automobile reliability report, J.D. Power and Associates' Initial Quality Study (IQS), which perennially places Toyota (and Lexus) at, or near, the top of its charts.
At least part of that imbalance is due to the fact that Strategic Vision tallies both tangible and subjective quality performance for an overall perception of the customer's satisfaction with the vehicle, while the Power survey purports to measure only specific defects. Thus, when my next-door neighbour – who bought a Saturn on my recommendation – racks up better highway mileage with his new 3.5-litre, V6-powered Aura than with his old four-cylinder Mazda Protege, it's safe to assume that his satisfaction meter is reading well into the black. When the dealer phones him two days after he's taken delivery with news that the Saturn has lowered the interest on lease payments from 2.9 percent to 0.9 percent and that his arrangement will retroactively be upgraded to the more advantageous rate, it's safe to say that said satisfaction meter borders on the ecstatic.
As with all surveys, it's worth remembering what dear old mom said about statistics and liars because there's a whole bunch of anomalies between the two surveys. For instance, the winning automaker in this year's Strategic Vision report is Volkswagen, a company that consistently fares very poorly in Power surveys. One presumes that Jetta owners are so overwhelmed with their European driving experience that they aren't much bothered by electrical gremlins and the occasional leaky engine.
On the other hand, much of Strategic Vision's survey aligns well with my own experience. For instance, the Mini Cooper is a perennial winner in the specialty sport coupe/small specialty vehicle under US$25,000 category. And though you won't see Hyundai's Azera near-luxury sedan challenging Lexus for North American sales records, it did win Strategic Vision's large car segment.
Strategic Vision's 2007 report is based on the reflections of 27,780 car buyers and, while all such "focus group" surveys should be viewed with a degree of skepticism, it is comforting to see that consumers are starting to notice what we auto journalists have been saying for years – the gap, real and perceived, between domestic and import brands is continuing to narrow and there's absolutely no reason not to be shopping for a domestic automobile – especially if it just happens to have a Saturn badge on its rump.
Jackie Dunn would normally never dream of displaying a Toyota Camry or Honda Accord at her two car dealerships in St Louis, Missouri.
Ms Dunn's franchise is Saturn, the brand launched by General Motors in the late 1980s to repel the Japanese carmakers' invasion of North America. Yet, for the past two months, she has invited prospective buyers to peek into and even drive a brand-new Camry and Accord at each outlet.
Many of Saturn's other 430 dealers will follow suit next week as General Motors launches a campaign known as Side-by-Side-by-Side. The promotion seeks to overcome one of the biggest obstacles faced by Detroit's carmakers in their drive to claw back market share from their Asian rivals.
GM and Ford Motor have made giant strides over the past year or two in building cars that match the quality, styling and performance of Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Hyundai – in some cases, at a significantly lower price. The upcoming Side-by-Side-by-Side promotion means that "the customer doesn't have to work to make the comparison", Mr. LaNeve says. "We'll make it for him."
An advertising strategy based on a rival's products can be risky. But in the case of GM and Ford, Peter DeLorenzo, a former automotive advertising executive, observed recently on his Autoextremist.com online magazine that "when you have nothing left to lose, why not go for it?"
Mr. DeLorenzo says "a strong product story that dispenses with the previously apologetic tone of 'we're almost as good for a lot less money' is not only desirable, it's mandatory."
Don't you recall Jesse knocking on the door at Toyota? Wait a minute, aren't Euro Americans now a minority group. :confuse: Parts is parts, just go buy for price + performance. What ever meets the tested standards. America still makes lots of parts. USA are all races of people making all sorts of products, as it should be - free enterprise.
Someone please find out why GM trucks and SUVs always have at least one light out on the outside of their vehicle. I don't think Toyota is hiring people to run around unscrewing those bulbs.
"quoting the quote: The upcoming Side-by-Side-by-Side promotion means that "the customer doesn't have to work to make the comparison", Mr. LaNeve says. "We'll make it for him." "
The winning team from Mississippi State University powered its Equinox with a parallel hybrid system that uses a 1.9-liter GM direct-injection, turbo-diesel engine paired with an electric motor to power the back wheels.
How is it that a couple of kids in Mississippi can put an Opel diesel in an Equinox but GM can't?
"Altima, Mazda6, and Miata vs. Pontiac - that easy, Pontiac loses."
If one were to put down the import Kool Aid for a minute one would probably find that in most respects the G6 meets or beats the Mazda6. Same could be said for Solstice GXP vs the Miata. The Miata has more trunk space, but thats about where its advantages end. I would say in most respects the Altima and G6 are pretty even. Altima does have a few more features, but it also goes up to $32k.
Same could be said for Solstice GXP vs the Miata. The Miata has more trunk space, but thats about where its advantages end.
Miata is also a quarter-ton lighter, and offers a retractable hardtop. The Solstice GXP might be faster, but it needs a turbo to do so (and that will only last until the Mazdaspeed Miata shows up).
"Miata is also a quarter-ton lighter, and offers a retractable hardtop. The Solstice GXP might be faster, but it needs a turbo to do so (and that will only last until the Mazdaspeed Miata shows up).
Its lighter but no faster and handles no better. Why would I care as a buyer looking at those two cars?
The hardtop is considerably more than the Solstice and I suspect the weight advantage disappears if you get the hardtop. The GXP has a turbo (didnt know they were taboo) to make power but you can get one for close to price of a much weaker miata. I'm sure the MS miata will be fast, but its not here yet and I've heard no concete plans to make one. Bottom line is the soltice is a legit contender to the Miata and I believe it has been outselling it as well.
You think a base model Altima or Mazda 6 are real sports sedans?
Altima, no. Mazda6, yes.
I dont think a base model 3 with 148hp and 15" wheels is that sporty, but thats just me
Have you ever driven one? They're quite sporty feeling, especially when it comes to cornering.
I would most definitely put the Solstice GXP up agaisnt the Miata and the G6 GTP up against the top FWD mazda 6.
Those pairings compete fairly well; it'd be a close contest. The base G6 might even compare well against the base Mazda6. As I said, the G6 and Solstice are two of the models that Pontiac seems to be doing right. The QUESTION is, would you put a base G5 or Vibe up against a base Mazda3?
The Astra should provide decent handling but its underpowered and thus its hard to consider it a sports compact. Its the same car as the G5 underneath the skin so I dont understand how you could have so much praise for it when you trash the cobalt/G5.
Umm, how do you call 140 HP underpowered? Oh, I forgot, your idea of "sport" is "Big-block V8." 140 is what the base Cobalt and G5 have, isn't it? And incidentally, it's NOT based on the Cobalt platform, but an Opel-developed platform generally referred to as the "Astra platform."
As for the VUE, I was specifically referring to the current 2008 model.
ts quite obvious that some people favor ride quality over sportiness.
Those people aren't going to shop Pontiac, they'll shop Chevrolet or Buick, or possibly Toyota. People looking for driving excitement aren't looking for cushy suspensions. The two objectives conflict.
You're making another point: GM needs to clearly define the mission of each nameplate. They can't all be all things to all people.
lets not get into CR, the problems with their data are numerous and I for one do not trust them at all.
"Problems"??
You have any evidence or documentation to back that up?
1487 said: The mere notion that Toyota and Honda can improve their reliability every single year with no bumps in the road is ridiculous.
Explain why it is ridiculous. Honda/Toyota management culture and philosophy has been engineering excellence and constant improvement over the decades, while GM was more intent on bean counting and marketing over the same time frame. GM should have gotten religion a long time ago, perhaps back in early 80's when Honda and Toyota were starting to have better product than GM.
1478 said: As for used cars, if I'm not buying one I dont see what value CR's "Best Bets" list has for me. If CR says that the best 5 year old cars are all HOndas, thats fine but if I'm buying new I dont care.
Guess you missed the point. "Best Bets" means cars that will be reliable, desirable and/or have excellent designs. Look at chart of reliablility of 5 year old cars in April Consumer Report to see where GM is vs Honda/Toyota.
That's always been the problem with Pontiac...they advertise "excitement" and sell rebadged Chevys (and a Toyota) with NO powertrain or suspension modifications at all. They'd be wise to grab more Saturn models besides the Sky/Solstice.
The performance model option has sportshifter or whatever they're calling it standard as well as the 3.6L V6, sport suspension, etc. Power advantage over the XE, same power as the XR, standard versus optional shifter-thingy, and suspension upgrades. So yeah, I'd call it a performance option. I don't see the Torrent getting the engine/tranny unless the Equinox does too. And it'll still have that slow electric steering box.
The Torrent and Equinox currently have marshamallow suspension, slow electric steering, and typical Chevy/rental interiors. So yeah, there are reasons to look at the VUE instead. Those reasons might not appeal to you in particular, but they'll appeal to several buyers.
And incidentally, it's NOT based on the Cobalt platform, but an Opel-developed platform generally referred to as the "Astra platform."
Actually, they are pretty close to the same platform (Delta), but with just enough differences to drive up costs unnecessarily. GM has repented of that foolishness, and farmed out development of one global compact successor to GMDAT.
I dont think a base model 3 with 148hp and 15" wheels is that sporty, but thats just me.
If you want high power, get a high horse American car. There is NO COMPARISON between the handling of a Pontiac G6 and a Mazda 3. Have you driven both? Some people want power. Some others consider "sporty" more about steering feel, handling.
I have only driven the 3 with 2.3 engine. You cant really compare 3 to G5 since they have different body styles. I would guess the G5 Gt could match up with the 3s in terms of performance.
CObalt and Astra are on same platform. 140hp is adequate another engine option should be offered because the car is not going to be fast. The Cobalt's engine has considerably more torque from its 2.2L and that makes a difference.
"People looking for driving excitement aren't looking for cushy suspensions. The two objectives conflict. "
and yet BMW offers two suspensions for its models.
G6 and 3 are not in same class. even if you drove a G6 you probably didnt drive the GTP model. Correct me if I'm wrong. The GT and GTP have a sportier suspension than the base V6 model found at rental agencies.
I have not driven G6 but I have driven 3. The 3 has a very controlled ride and good brakes. Steering feel is OK I guess, but nothing exceptional. I'm sure its better to drive than a Cobalt LT.
Comments
Just to be sur the nomenclature is correct.
Acura went from 10th to 18th.
Hyundai from 3rd to 12th.
Kia from 25th to 13th.
BUT as I have said for the last 2 years the dilta in numbers is so small it does not matter anymore. they are all darn good.
In the last 5 years there has only been one Pontiac that could be called "rebadged" and that is the Torrent. What ones are you referring too?
We perhaps should not be "impressed" by their product.
I for one, after owning a Toyota Sienna for nine years, am in total agreement.
Cheers!
I consider 9 years long term. If we are truly interested in the environment it should be the average. I also think it should be where reliability studies focus. If a vehicle gives a person 9 years of trouble free driving, it would be considered a reliable vehicle. Aside from normal tires, brakes, belts, etc. I would like to see our government mandate vehicle warranties to 10 years and 150k miles like they did on the hybrid batteries. Why not give a person some peace of mind that he can keep a car for 10 years without it costing an arm and a leg to keep running? Maybe GM will lead the way
That's history now, I'm on to another brand, so far so good.
Of course I like your idea re: 10 year/150K warranty. Talkin' about a great selling feature!
Loren
One on one, the Cobalt vs the Civic or Corolla = nahhh, the last two are in a league of their own, as you say. The Astra may be more interesting. Ford? Chrysler? No significant small car, unless you count the Mazda3 as a Ford.
The Accord SE V6 was too good a deal to pass up, but I came close to buying the Aura XR, and considered the XE at one time too. That I will buy the notion of all things equal. The Impala, well they are larger than the Camry, so when size and price matters, perhaps chalk one up for the bigger boy. And the competition for the Prius is? Nada. Best small truck? There is Tacoma and then there is what ??? A good large truck? Sure Chevy, Ford and Dodge for the big boys. Tundra is in the running though as the years go by. Wish GM would get a new supplier for running lights and taillights, as I see too many SUV and trucks with but one eye, or tail light working. Looks wise Silverado design is pretty good looking. Dodge had the boldest look, but it is not only getting old, the second design seemed too over the top. Ford's flat sided look wins for most boring.
As for reliability of Honda and Toyota being like all the rest, all I can say is check out the cars you are interesting in, and see how the data looks. Initial quality means they arrived in one piece. Reliability year after year for decades; priceless! Innovations in engine building, car handling, and new improvements in automobiles safety features, ergonomics, and so many things come to play. I don't know, you tell me, are Honda and Toyota just another auto company? Is GM yet another car company, or somehow superior in some way? Looks like they are first and foremost done the best work with the SUV and trucks in current times. Then secondly one looks towards Cadillac as hanging in there, while Lincoln looks more like a lost cause. The CTS has a good record for reliability and is a new car, or relatively new car. The rest of the line is adequate I suppose. That Caddy crossover, I guess one could call it, is something which catches the eye. And of course the Escalade is top world of bling lines.
So if Toyota, Honda, (other foreign cars), and GM are pretty much equal for reliability, in other words that day is now for a level field of cars to choose from for reliability, then what next? What sets apart one car from another. Which GM cars today have an edge judging by those extra good features, or values, or style & handling,over the competition?
Loren
http://www.carspace.com/m1miata
Loren
I have a 2000 z71 with 105k miles on it. It drives just like when I drove it off the lot.
I think reliability is totally summed up for the most part in how you take care of your vehicle.
Good question. The dilemma is that the economy rides on more frequent car sales. Now my wife and I keep cars a long time. But if everybody did it would be good for the environment, bad for the auto business.
Mileage I've had on my cars at sale:
235K (bought used at 63K), 18 yrs
110K, 6 yrs
135K, 9 yrs
88K, 6 yrs
110K, 6 yrs
221K, 13 yrs (still driving this one, a 1994 Mercury Villager)
Transmission rebuild #2 came up around 108,000 miles, back in the spring of 2006. Reverse had gone out, and so had two of the forward gears (can't remember, but I think it was 2 and 4). That one was about $1860, done by a local shop that I trust. I think they turned it around in two days.
Now other than the disposable transmissions, which I hear is actually a common problem with GM's half-ton trucks, it's been a pretty good truck.
He's talked about getting a new truck and giving me his '97, so I can "upgrade" from my '85 Silverado. However, I dunno if I really want to do that. Those $1800 transmissions kinda scare me, whereas the THM350C in my '85 is comparatively bulletproof. And much cheaper to rebuild if it does crap out! Plus, it's a bigger truck (extended cab), but less utility (6 1/2 foot bed, whereas mine has an 8-foot).
So, sorry Uncle. I appreciate the effort, but I think I'm gonna hang on to what I have!
I had a neighbor a few years back who had an Expedition, around a 1998 I believe. He used to go through rear-ends on a regular basis, and I think a transmission somewhere along the line. He replaced it with the newer style that came out around 2002 or so? I think he had problems with that one, too, but he moved soon after, so I don't know how it held out for the long term.
Just figured I should throw in that Ford horror story to balance out my GM horror story. :P
...euro-design suspension, different steering rack, performance model option...
Performance model option is a bunch of tacked on ground effects and such, but no power upgrade or advantage over the other two... Correct me if I am wrong I guess.
Again, I see no real reason why the Vue is going to be any more exciting than the Torrent. And what happened to Pontiac being the "Excitment" division? Maybe now the that the Vue is the "hot one" lol, the other two need to be dropped? That's all I am saying.
Both, really. The domestics finally got their act halfway together and the big Japanese makes shifted their lineup toward US-specific models, so both groups have regressed toward a mean.
"only thing going"????
Apparently GM has been making progress, but other mfrs have not been standing still. GM has to catch Honda, Toyota.
Time for a reality check. Look at Consumer Reports, April, 2007 issue on pages 11,17,23,25,80,81.
Chart on page 23 covers model years 1997 to 2006 and shows all brands bunched up at one-year point, but Honda and Toyota still ahead. As vehicles get older, the gap widens between Honda/Toyota and all of the others. Obviously, it remains to be seen if this graph in future April issues of CR shows GM or anybody catching Honda/Toyota.
Is it possible that GM in model years 2006 and 2007 significantly closed the gap with Honda, Toyota? April 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, etc issues of CR will have the answer.
On page 80, CR lists "Good Bets" in used cars and the list is loaded with Honda, Acura, Lexus, Toyota. GM has 3 cars listed of which 2 are Toyota design/engineered.
On page 81, CR lists "Bad Bets" in used cars and the list has many GM brands and not a single Honda, Acura, Lexus or Toyota.
On page 81, CR lists "Vehicles to Avoid, and the list has numerous GM models and no Lexus nor Toyota. There is one Acura model, RSX 06. There is one Honda model Passport 97-00, 02 which was a rebadged Isuzu.
The G5 base model isnt sporty, but the GT is respectable. C&D just tested one and its handling and braking were top notch for a compact in this price range.
I am not a fan of the Vibe, but it did have some sportiness when it had the 180hp engine but Toyota didnt want to upgrade the engine to meet new emissions standards so they killed it. In its current form the Vibe is trash, but supposedly a new model is coming in 2008.
There is only so much sport you can get with cars in the $18k-$30k price range. Pontiacs arent BMWS, at least not yet, but the same could be said of Mazda and Nissan even though they have sporty reputations.
The G5 base model isnt sporty
You just proved my point. The "driving exitement" isn't pervasive, because it's not strong throughout the brand, only on higher level models.
There is only so much sport you can get with cars in the $18k-$30k price range
Nissan isn't quite so good at it, but Mazda manages to do it...EVERYTHING they build gets a sport suspension and steering rack AT MINIMUM, hence the "Zoom-zoom" sporty reputation and image works for them. "Sport" doesn't necessarily mean big wheels and engines. You don't have to be BMW, true, but it would be better to emulate the competition here, which is Mazda. There's a reason Mazda has a sporty reputation and Pontiac doesn't.
Heck, SATURN manages to be sporty in that price range: see the VUE, and the upcoming Astra (I hear the Aura XE is a pretty nice handling vehicle also). That's why Pontiac is the next logical destination for the incoming Opels.
Would it be SUCH a hassle to at least give the Torrent and G5 sport suspensions and steering in their base forms? Pontiac isn't supposed to be selling snoozeboxes; people looking for snoozeboxes go to Toyota or Chevy.
At one time the most reliable Pontiac / GM car was the Vibe, or Toyota Matrix -- oh that's right, it's all in people's heads, and that never happened.
Loren
I wondered who was funding CR
Same applies to other brands in this price range. You think a base model Altima or Mazda 6 are real sports sedans? Think again. POntiac is not BMW and their prices reflect that, they are in a lower league. I forgot you own a 3 so you are incredibly partial towards MAzda and incapable of being objective about their lineup. I dont think a base model 3 with 148hp and 15" wheels is that sporty, but thats just me. My guess is if there was a G5 GT sedan it would be able to hold its own against the midlevel 3 with 2.3L engine. I would most definitely put the Solstice GXP up agaisnt the Miata and the G6 GTP up against the top FWD mazda 6. The MS 6 is a more serious sedan, but its very small volme and expensive.
"Heck, SATURN manages to be sporty in that price range: see the VUE, and the upcoming Astra (I hear the Aura XE is a pretty nice handling vehicle also). That's why Pontiac is the next logical destination for the incoming Opels. "
The new Vue isnt all that sporty and neither is the 2007 model. The main difference between the 2007 Vue and the Torrent is that the Vue has a 250hp Honda engine which makes it much faster. It was never lauded for being sporty though. The Astra should provide decent handling but its underpowered and thus its hard to consider it a sports compact. Its the same car as the G5 underneath the skin so I dont understand how you could have so much praise for it when you trash the cobalt/G5.
"Would it be SUCH a hassle to at least give the Torrent and G5 sport suspensions and steering in their base forms?"
A lot of people dont want that, even BMW doesnt do that. Why would Pontiac make sport suspensions standard if BMW does do so? Its quite obvious that some people favor ride quality over sportiness.
As for used cars, if I'm not buying one I dont see what value CR's "Best Bets" list has for me. If CR says that the best 5 year old cars are all HOndas, thats fine but if I'm buying new I dont care.
Dont get it.
And while big brother is doing that lets make sure my DVD player last 3 years and my dishwasher 5 years and my shaver 4 years and my water heater 10 years and my pencil sharpener 4 years and my lawn mower 5 years and.....
Less than 20% if they bought new. 80% no longer have the car they bought new after 5 years.
Actually the matrix scored quite a bit higher than the Vibe by CR for a couple years. They got crap for it and the next year they combined them into one vehicle as far as the reliability data was concerned. So yes, they did alter the data by combining them.
If buyers were that worried they would be buying Hyundais/Kias/Buicks/Cadillacs/GM in droves in that order and the others would go out of business. Not happening.
Jesse Jackson, the coalition's president and founder, has long urged automakers to boost their spending with minority suppliers. Last year, GM spent more than $5 billion with minority suppliers, or more than 11 percent of its purchases from companies based in the United States.
Jackson gave Andersson the coalition's first Trade Advocate Award during a ceremony in Chicago.
I wonder what the other OEM's have?
The Big 3 domestic automakers, the Chrysler Group, Ford and GM, have traditionally been the leaders in purchasing from minority-owned suppliers.
But as their market share has fallen, so has their production and the number of parts that they need.
Couple that with the never-ending pressure on all suppliers to cut prices to remain competitive in a consolidating global industry and minority-owned automotive suppliers find themselves in an inescapable vice that keeps squeezing them tighter.
Of course if you are judging a car to buy you must drive the most current version as well. And then there are the apples and oranges times when they change an engine or transmission completely and the evaluation of the previous years cars may be meaningless. Still, in most cases, if the models are similar, do a run in an older broken in car to see if they have a pre-owned solid feel or that used and broken feel how some older cars in a year or two had back when. If you buy and trade-in a car every two to three years, I guess it doesn't matter as most cars last that long even back three decades ago, and if ya get that stinker, it is gone soon anyway.
Looks like years 2002 to present have been good for GM on the car reliability rating. Now we have the period of time when things were looking bad for GM, say 2005 to 2008 period to look at on the CR survey when it comes out in 2009. That should be interesting. If the problems at Delphi and the company as a whole do not translate into lower numbers in years '05-'08 say, then it is for solid trend. They could pass the other makes of cars, and they will show the world great consistency during trying times. This would go down in history as a major accomplishment in automotive lifetime.
Loren
As gas prices remain above $3 a gallon, teams of college students involved in the Challenge X automotive engineering competition used a variety of advanced propulsion technologies. Their goal was to increase fuel efficiency and make vehicles more environmentally friendly without sacrificing their appeal to consumers.
The propulsion systems aren't planned for production right away, but top engineers from General Motors Corp. and the U.S. Department of Energy said the students' work could influence future product decisions, help address concerns about the nation's dependence on foreign oil and limit the emissions believed to cause global warming.
"I think the work these young people are doing is going to help solve our energy problems," said John Mizroch, a deputy assistant secretary for the Department of Energy. The teams, which assembled at GM's world headquarters in the Renaissance Center, built systems to adapt Chevrolet Equinox SUVs to use a variety of alternative fuels. For the competition, the teams were graded not only on environmental impact, but also on traditional consumer considerations, including acceleration, ride and handling and towing capability.
The winning team from Mississippi State University powered its Equinox with a parallel hybrid system that uses a 1.9-liter GM direct-injection, turbo-diesel engine paired with an electric motor to power the back wheels.
The team's propulsion system captures the gasoline equivalent of better than 35 miles per gallon, emits slightly less carbon dioxide than traditional petroleum-fueled vehicles and uses 20 percent less petroleum than the average vehicle.
The system's fuel economy compares with the 34-mile-per-gallon combined fuel economy rating on the Ford Escape Hybrid and the 29 m.p.g. rating for the Saturn Vue Hybrid and Toyota Highlander Hybrid.
GM has already hired 40 students who have worked on Challenge X vehicles in the past three years and expects to extend offers to as many as a dozen current team members as early as next week, Burns said.
In fact, the entire Saturn brand finished fifth out of 21 non-luxury brands in Strategic Vision's report, three spots higher than last year. Even more pertinent is that Saturn's jump to brand respectability dragged GM kicking and screaming into a tie for fourth place among automakers.
More importantly, though, than that position is who General Motors is tied with. Yes, folks, tied for fourth overall in the company's initial ownership experience is Toyota. Yup, the brand that recently made headlines for kicking the General to the sidelines – mainly because its cars are perceived as more reliable than creaky old domestics –could do no better than fourth.
Of course, that flies in the face of virtually all accepted wisdom, as Toyota holds a hallowed place among consumers as the automaker that can do no wrong. It also contradicts that other significant automobile reliability report, J.D. Power and Associates' Initial Quality Study (IQS), which perennially places Toyota (and Lexus) at, or near, the top of its charts.
At least part of that imbalance is due to the fact that Strategic Vision tallies both tangible and subjective quality performance for an overall perception of the customer's satisfaction with the vehicle, while the Power survey purports to measure only specific defects. Thus, when my next-door neighbour – who bought a Saturn on my recommendation – racks up better highway mileage with his new 3.5-litre, V6-powered Aura than with his old four-cylinder Mazda Protege, it's safe to assume that his satisfaction meter is reading well into the black. When the dealer phones him two days after he's taken delivery with news that the Saturn has lowered the interest on lease payments from 2.9 percent to 0.9 percent and that his arrangement will retroactively be upgraded to the more advantageous rate, it's safe to say that said satisfaction meter borders on the ecstatic.
As with all surveys, it's worth remembering what dear old mom said about statistics and liars because there's a whole bunch of anomalies between the two surveys. For instance, the winning automaker in this year's Strategic Vision report is Volkswagen, a company that consistently fares very poorly in Power surveys. One presumes that Jetta owners are so overwhelmed with their European driving experience that they aren't much bothered by electrical gremlins and the occasional leaky engine.
On the other hand, much of Strategic Vision's survey aligns well with my own experience. For instance, the Mini Cooper is a perennial winner in the specialty sport coupe/small specialty vehicle under US$25,000 category. And though you won't see Hyundai's Azera near-luxury sedan challenging Lexus for North American sales records, it did win Strategic Vision's large car segment.
Strategic Vision's 2007 report is based on the reflections of 27,780 car buyers and, while all such "focus group" surveys should be viewed with a degree of skepticism, it is comforting to see that consumers are starting to notice what we auto journalists have been saying for years – the gap, real and perceived, between domestic and import brands is continuing to narrow and there's absolutely no reason not to be shopping for a domestic automobile – especially if it just happens to have a Saturn badge on its rump.
Ms Dunn's franchise is Saturn, the brand launched by General Motors in the late 1980s to repel the Japanese carmakers' invasion of North America. Yet, for the past two months, she has invited prospective buyers to peek into and even drive a brand-new Camry and Accord at each outlet.
Many of Saturn's other 430 dealers will follow suit next week as General Motors launches a campaign known as Side-by-Side-by-Side. The promotion seeks to overcome one of the biggest obstacles faced by Detroit's carmakers in their drive to claw back market share from their Asian rivals.
GM and Ford Motor have made giant strides over the past year or two in building cars that match the quality, styling and performance of Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Hyundai – in some cases, at a significantly lower price.
The upcoming Side-by-Side-by-Side promotion means that "the customer doesn't have to work to make the comparison", Mr. LaNeve says. "We'll make it for him."
An advertising strategy based on a rival's products can be risky. But in the case of GM and Ford, Peter DeLorenzo, a former automotive advertising executive, observed recently on his Autoextremist.com online magazine that "when you have nothing left to lose, why not go for it?"
Mr. DeLorenzo says "a strong product story that dispenses with the previously apologetic tone of 'we're almost as good for a lot less money' is not only desirable, it's mandatory."
Someone please find out why GM trucks and SUVs always have at least one light out on the outside of their vehicle. I don't think Toyota is hiring people to run around unscrewing those bulbs.
The upcoming Side-by-Side-by-Side promotion means that "the customer doesn't have to work to make the comparison", Mr. LaNeve says. "We'll make it for him." "
:surprise:
Loren
How is it that a couple of kids in Mississippi can put an Opel diesel in an Equinox but GM can't?
If one were to put down the import Kool Aid for a minute one would probably find that in most respects the G6 meets or beats the Mazda6. Same could be said for Solstice GXP vs the Miata. The Miata has more trunk space, but thats about where its advantages end. I would say in most respects the Altima and G6 are pretty even. Altima does have a few more features, but it also goes up to $32k.
Miata is also a quarter-ton lighter, and offers a retractable hardtop. The Solstice GXP might be faster, but it needs a turbo to do so (and that will only last until the Mazdaspeed Miata shows up).
Its lighter but no faster and handles no better. Why would I care as a buyer looking at those two cars?
The hardtop is considerably more than the Solstice and I suspect the weight advantage disappears if you get the hardtop. The GXP has a turbo (didnt know they were taboo) to make power but you can get one for close to price of a much weaker miata. I'm sure the MS miata will be fast, but its not here yet and I've heard no concete plans to make one. Bottom line is the soltice is a legit contender to the Miata and I believe it has been outselling it as well.
:surprise: :confuse:
Miata SV: Curb Weight MT 2441
Miata Sport hardtop: Curb Weight MT 2551; Curb Weight AT 2602
Solstice: Curb Weight MT 2860
Solstice GXP: Curb Weight MT 2976; Curb Weight AT 2988
The Solstice isn't bad for what it is and it does outsell the Miata, so there's no need to kneecap the competition just to make the Pontiac shine.
Altima, no. Mazda6, yes.
I dont think a base model 3 with 148hp and 15" wheels is that sporty, but thats just me
Have you ever driven one? They're quite sporty feeling, especially when it comes to cornering.
I would most definitely put the Solstice GXP up agaisnt the Miata and the G6 GTP up against the top FWD mazda 6.
Those pairings compete fairly well; it'd be a close contest. The base G6 might even compare well against the base Mazda6. As I said, the G6 and Solstice are two of the models that Pontiac seems to be doing right. The QUESTION is, would you put a base G5 or Vibe up against a base Mazda3?
The Astra should provide decent handling but its underpowered and thus its hard to consider it a sports compact. Its the same car as the G5 underneath the skin so I dont understand how you could have so much praise for it when you trash the cobalt/G5.
Umm, how do you call 140 HP underpowered? Oh, I forgot, your idea of "sport" is "Big-block V8." 140 is what the base Cobalt and G5 have, isn't it? And incidentally, it's NOT based on the Cobalt platform, but an Opel-developed platform generally referred to as the "Astra platform."
As for the VUE, I was specifically referring to the current 2008 model.
ts quite obvious that some people favor ride quality over sportiness.
Those people aren't going to shop Pontiac, they'll shop Chevrolet or Buick, or possibly Toyota. People looking for driving excitement aren't looking for cushy suspensions. The two objectives conflict.
You're making another point: GM needs to clearly define the mission of each nameplate. They can't all be all things to all people.
"Problems"??
You have any evidence or documentation to back that up?
1487 said:
The mere notion that Toyota and Honda can improve their reliability every single year with no bumps in the road is ridiculous.
Explain why it is ridiculous. Honda/Toyota management culture and philosophy has been engineering excellence and constant improvement over the decades, while GM was more intent on bean counting and marketing over the same time frame. GM should have gotten religion a long time ago, perhaps back in early 80's when Honda and Toyota were starting to have better product than GM.
1478 said:
As for used cars, if I'm not buying one I dont see what value CR's "Best Bets" list has for me. If CR says that the best 5 year old cars are all HOndas, thats fine but if I'm buying new I dont care.
Guess you missed the point. "Best Bets" means cars that will be reliable, desirable and/or have excellent designs.
Look at chart of reliablility of 5 year old cars in April Consumer Report to see where GM is vs Honda/Toyota.
The performance model option has sportshifter or whatever they're calling it standard as well as the 3.6L V6, sport suspension, etc. Power advantage over the XE, same power as the XR, standard versus optional shifter-thingy, and suspension upgrades. So yeah, I'd call it a performance option. I don't see the Torrent getting the engine/tranny unless the Equinox does too. And it'll still have that slow electric steering box.
The Torrent and Equinox currently have marshamallow suspension, slow electric steering, and typical Chevy/rental interiors. So yeah, there are reasons to look at the VUE instead. Those reasons might not appeal to you in particular, but they'll appeal to several buyers.
Actually, they are pretty close to the same platform (Delta), but with just enough differences to drive up costs unnecessarily. GM has repented of that foolishness, and farmed out development of one global compact successor to GMDAT.
If you want high power, get a high horse American car. There is NO COMPARISON between the handling of a Pontiac G6 and a Mazda 3. Have you driven both? Some people want power. Some others consider "sporty" more about steering feel, handling.
CObalt and Astra are on same platform. 140hp is adequate another engine option should be offered because the car is not going to be fast. The Cobalt's engine has considerably more torque from its 2.2L and that makes a difference.
"People looking for driving excitement aren't looking for cushy suspensions. The two objectives conflict. "
and yet BMW offers two suspensions for its models.
I have not driven G6 but I have driven 3. The 3 has a very controlled ride and good brakes. Steering feel is OK I guess, but nothing exceptional. I'm sure its better to drive than a Cobalt LT.