Just an educated guess but from the civic currently needing motor and trans mounts, a/c fixed, and a windshield, and not much in the car to go wrong besides, a checkup could have been another word to describe "this thing runs bad gets poor mileage and makes noises, could you give me a checkup?" I know it wasn't for tires but did include a timing belt. I'm not suprised my astro is holding up better $ wise and feels so much more solid in spite of CR probably rating the Honda 3x better. As far as the mileage difference, the 3800 got 30 on the only trip I took (about 4700 lbs tot. load). No civic will get 40 with the foot on the brake. The 3800 just got 28 mpg on the last tank of 50-50 commute driving. The m/t Civic got 32 mpg on last tank on a mostly interstate trip without a/c.
A CTS-V is NOT going to have the suspension nor the aero package to safely manage 200 mph on a bumpy farm road. But that's okay, because it won't have the horsepower to accelerate to 200 mph anyway.
Well if it get's a 600 hp. version of the LS-7 it should be a member of the 200 mph club.
Stops don't hurt my mileage much. My 2wd auto ext-cab Sonoma I just got has a 4.3L and I drove it up 1200 mi from FL, averaging 25.5 mpg for 5 tanks. My last tank up from Tenn to Ind and some local driving was 25.9. My 'to work and back' tank checked today was 25.6 and includes plenty of city and stop and go driving and only 40% interstate.
I also have a 3800 auto mustang. It has rating of 90 HP less than my 3800 S/C Riv. They both get 28 mpg on my 94 mile round trip to work, but the mustang is considerably smaller and lighter. The mustang also needs an O2 sensor which is probably costing 1 or 2 mpg.
BTW, it may not be best to use the terms, " blown away " with mini cars, as they do blow off the road more easily.
Rocky, you need to buy one to keep you under 100 MPH
Well Loren, you won't have to worry as it appears I might be stuck with the Impala, my wife forged my name to pal. It's not a bad car but I look at it like driving a Yaris, from a power stand point compared to my other cars. :sick:
I probably won't be able to get the car I'd want to drive and own for at least a few years depending on how my divorce goes.
The good thing about Michigan, is you can go 80 mph on the highway and the cops won't even turn their head but go over 80 and most will chase you down. I've gone by State Boys in the past 84 mph and they threatened me with their brake lights I obey though !!!!!
And what would the union invest those funds (or hold securities) in?
The new Chrysler IPO in 4 or 5 years.
The union should lock in a option price now for a huge block of shares down the road. Then they could write a new slogan - buy your car from an employee owned company.
I'd like the same to happen for Ford and GM. A employee ran corporation keeps the greed of investors out to make a quick buck of the mix.
Thanks Loren, I had to tab back to page 101 "May 10th" that's how far I'm behind in most of the forums. I'm way out of the loop on the car industry and feel it's going to take mea long time to catch up.
I just told my Step-dad to have a good nightat work as he is working 3rd shift at Delphi about a mile from their house. He is a Millwright making the Big Bucks. I just hope for his sake it lasts as he is a good man and deserves it.
I sat in a 2007 GMC Acadia SLT last week at the dealership I was getting the Impala serviced at for a oil change. come to find out the dealer my wife baught it from never changed the fuel filter and air filter for the HVAC system. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
I'm going to go after that dealership with my lawyer real soon as they hosed me pretty darn good. :mad:
Well it all cost me $119.00 dollars but I did get a interview in the process.
I just applied for a Armed Security Officer job tonight on-line transporting money to ATM's in a armored truck here in Grand Rapids. I don't know what it pays but I'm assuming it's got to be half-way decent ?
Well back to the GMC Acadia, it was a Red SLT AWD model. I was very impressed and can see why it was edmunds most significant vehicle after sitting in it. I was really impressed with the Bose 5.1
I've got an Acadia rented for my trip to New Mexico. Taking my sister so we need more room than the PU truck. I will let you all know how the gas mileage is.
I'm with you dave on this one. There are more than a few Pollyanna's in the world, your friend may be one. People sometimes pass info on that they want to believe themselves. My first, and possibly last, Toyota was perhaps the most expensive vehicle I have owned. I'm a CR subscriber, an honest one, and I do partake in the on-line survey, but I certainly do wonder how many others send in factual information when asked. You've heard of selective memory? I don't know if you're aware of Lemon-Aid by Phil Edmonston. He is the founder of the non-profit Automobile Protection Association. He writes that one of the automobile myths of our time, is that Honda and Toyota have impressive reliability. No longer; Trannies, engines, and sliding doors are their nemesis.
I don't think it will be geared tall enough to run 200 mph and 600 hp at the same time. The current CTS-V (theoretically) runs 200 mph at 7426 rpm in 6th gear, but the rev limiter on the LS2 is set at 6000 rpm. Oops. :sick:
The ideal way to handle these things is to figure out at what speed the CTS-V hits its aero limit for 600 hp, and gear the car from there. In reality, GM will use one of its standard 6-speed gearsets and the car will probably end up gear limited.
The ION is driven by my daughter. We bought it almost one year ago (6/10/06) and it has, I think, less than 7500 miles on it. She uses it to get back and forth to college - about 100 miles each way. She comes home every other weekend or so.
I've driven it a few times, and, once you remember that the dials are in the middle, it actually is more comfortable - to me. Guess it has something to do with the distance from my eyes and that it isn't as much of an adjustment when looking at them from the road. For having 140HP and an automatic, it gets down the road pretty nicely. I haven't driven it any long distances (mainly from my house to the dealer), so I cannot comment on the seat comfort. Overall, a nice appliance - even looks it, in the color she wanted - Storm Grey.
We picked the ION for a couple of reasons: 1) the dent resistant side panels, which we thought would be a good feature to have in a college town; and 2) the AUX adapter for her iPod.
The new Astra may be your daughters next car. After graduation, and big bucks made,
This is the only car she's getting from us. I suspect she'll drive it for 10 or 15 years, since she cares nothing about cars or her image in what she drives. Plus, with her wanting to be a vet, graduation is a long way away.
Wonder if the current generation will appreciate the hatchbacks?
Ironically, we traded in a Ford Focus ZX5 on the ION. We had bought the Focus a few years ago as the car she was supposed to drive when she got her license. On the day we bought th Focus, the daughter was with us and refused to get the Focus sedan, and I figured the insurance would be too high on the 3-door, so we settled on the 5-door.
Unfortunately, we bought a stick shift because we couldn't find a Focus equipped the way we wanted (tilt steering, ABS) with an automatic. She tried to learn to drive it, but gave up, so I was driving the Focus and she was using my L300.
When I started looking at $25-30K cars as a replacement for the Focus and let the daughter just have the L300, the wife decided that it made more sense to keep the payment in the same range as the Focus. Ergo, the ION.
So overnight, both of those companies just somehow fell apart! Sorry, but I don't believe that. Owned too many Japan made cars over the years. Friends, family, and those that work on cars would disagree with this off the wall assessment of Honda and Toyota. Sounds like the spin doctors for the Big Three of days gone bye. They were always saying things like that. It was always all in mind. Well I pay attention to the pocket book.
This does NOT mean that a GM or Ford say is not as good or better in any particular model comparison for reliability. I just do not find any data to support the claim that over the last few decades the average car produced by the Japan big two was not more reliable. Too much data supports the past claims of these cars being reliable. Now let's move on to today. Most all cars are pretty darn reliable. End of story. Loren
Insulting vehicles based on their names seems pretty lame to me. Do you really think Toyota is successful because of names like Camry, 4Runner, Yaris and Sienna?
You are right and wrong. Toyota's actual names aren't any better than GM's; we can agree on that. Toyota is not named any better than Ford or Chrysler, either.
As another post pointed out, the reason Toyota and Honda's names are better is because of what they represent. Just like the name "Suburban" has a value, so does the name "Camry" or "Accord". The Camry name dates back to 1984. The Accord name goes back to (about) 1976. The value of the name represents the market perception of the value of the vehicles. Successful vehicles that are reengineered keep their names. Hence the Suburban with the longest name history of almost any vehicle.
For GM, they've done tons of name changing over the last 30 years. This represents models that didn't do well in the market and have some real or perceived stigma.
Yes, even Toyota had the Celica, the Echo. GM has had a huge number of names (often exacerbated by the number of divisions, when a platform tanks there might be 3 rebadges from Buick, Pontiac, Chevy, etc. that represent almost the same vehicle). Those names go to the great name heaven in the sky. The plethora of GM dead names represents the plethora of failed models over the years.
GMs names have often had poor consistency, and often sounded silly as if they wanted to imply a level of quality or excitement that never really existed. Examples are Sunfire, Firenza, Fiero, Firebird (they like fire!), Sunbird (they like birds, too!), Calais, Venture, etc. Perhaps the best name that was true to the car was "Cavalier". All those years not caring about the market. :P
But names aren't the real issue. It's the quality of the vehicles behind them. Hopefully with the recent improvements, we will some names from GM that will still be in use 30 years from now.
Report finds most of the crosstown rivals' models performed worse than they did a year ago.
DETROIT -- All of General Motors Corp.'s and the Chrysler Group's brands scored below average in initial vehicle quality, J.D. Power and Associates reported Wednesday.
While Ford Motor Co. had more segment-leading 2007 model-year vehicles than Toyota Motor Corp. in the annual survey, which tracks quality during the first 90 days of ownership, its crosstown rivals stumbled.
There was a bit of stumble but also some improvements. Also the industry average stayed the same. 124 to 125.
Porsche and Lexus remained virtually the same but Hyundai dropped from 3rd to 12 (102-125).
Cadillac 7th to 25. (117-135) disgusting drop. Could the Escalade be that bad? CTS/DTS/STS were carryover!
GMC also dropped from 119 to 131. Again the only vehicle changed was the Yukon?
Interesting that Chevrolet stayed at about industry average (124 to 129). Perhaps improvements on some of the chevy car models made up for the Tahoe/Suburban? Also Chevy is not so heavily volume biased to the large SUV's as GMC.
Saturn/Pontiac/Buick stayed about the same.
Saab increased quality from 163 to 133. A somewhat significant improvement. Hummer improved only slightly form 171 to 162.
All in all I would surmize (I can only surmize) that they new SUV's with their huge volumes pulled down the divisions that sell heavily in SUV's-GMC/Cadillac/Chevy with fisrt year problems. Be very interesting to see their actual numbers.
Overall though the difference in intial quality went down. 91 - 204 (2006) and 91 - 170 (2007).
The real difference in problems is +- .25 problems per car. Not a heck of a lot of difference. I mean the best is aobut 1 problem per car and the meat of the industry is at 1.3 problems per car.
Intersting that the GP/LaCrosse Oshawa plant won best in America IQS plant with score of 42. The Grand Prix won the "large car" segment award.
Also I see the Suburban/Tahoe were 2/3 in their segment under the Sequoia. Per my above comment I surmized that they were the vehicles that dragged down GMC/Chevrolet. Actual scores are not available but SUV's have much higher PPH scores than the cars so it is still probable the new SUV's hurt the divisional scores. Escalade did not make the ranking this time.
hey how can the Monte Carlo be a midsize while the Grand Prix a large? Same platform. They must be on the border. Camry does not show up in the rankings again.
Interesting. What vehicles do you think they will build "new" plants for? Ijust do not see it. They have enough modern plants already. maybe a beter question is what plants are not modern and need replacing?
You have a problem with GM and thus many of your posts are full of half truths. GM's increase was driven by quite a few models and most of those models are not fleet darlings. YOu failed to mention Saturn's increase or the increase of the Acadia which is obviously not a fleet vehicle. YOu are making excuses because the sales numbers dont line up with your opinions.
As for average incentive per vehicle, that number means little unless we know the average price of the vehicles sold. Since GM sells a lot of trucks (which are expensive) it makes sense that their average incentive cost per vehicle would be higher than Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, etc. On top of that those figured include financing which is not the same as cash back rebates. GM has done a lot of low rate financing offers and that is OK by me because it doesnt affect resale value.
"Friends, family, and those that work on cars would disagree with this off the wall assessment of Honda and Toyota. Sounds like the spin doctors for the Big Three of days gone bye. They were always saying things like that. It was always all in mind. Well I pay attention to the pocket book. "
I think you need to talk to more import owners. My sister in law has a 2002 Camry and has had numerous problems, several of which have cost her serious money.
"As far as the alphanumeric names, that only works if you've got product and brand enough to back it up. In the case of Mazda and Caddy, it has done so, because they're both strong brands. Pontiac doesn't quite have the product strength yet, since while they advertise "driving excitement" they're really not selling cars with much sportiness. "
Can you let me know where you found out that alpha numeric names can only apply to sporty cars? I have never heard that before. Hyundai was using alpha numeric names on their old large sedan and it was hardly sporty or impressive. Pontiac only makes three cars and in their top trim levels I would say they are reasonably sporty. I think the G6 GTO, GP GXP and Solstic GXP are just as sporty as anything sold by Mazda, Nissan or Honda. I would think the G8 is only going to improve Pontiac's reputation.
"Can I quote you on it being a cheaper version of a BMW 5 series? "
Yes. I can see (shockingly) that you have read nothing about this car. I think your opinions would be a little more informed if you actually read some online and print magazines. MT and Edmunds did reviews of the Commodore and were VERY impressed with the car. In Australia this car is compared to the E class, 5 series, etc. and holds its own. This is not Crown Vic or a 60s muscle car that cant do anything but go in a straight line.
You can argue about the name, but the performance is undeniable.
As for average incentive per vehicle, that number means little unless we know the average price of the vehicles sold. Since GM sells a lot of trucks (which are expensive) it makes sense that their average incentive cost per vehicle would be higher than Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, etc.
Actually the new Tundra has higer incentives than GM's new pick ups. Toyota is really trying to get a bigger portion of that market to fill up their new assembly plant(sounds like GM trying to keep their plants full. Toyota has introduced the new truck against a formidable opponent and in times of high gas prices.
Also chrylser and Ford are really incentivizing their trucks to keep the cash flow going and that really cuts into Toyotas projections.
Selective memory is the case. I believe that their cars over 5 years, 10 years may cost the same or more to own than the equivalent other products without the foreign quality factor. In some cases the timing belt replacements, and required maintenance items were outrageous at the smug dealers. Neighbor has only 3 Honda Acuras since his daughter took his 4th. He only has them because he has a special Honda-Acura only mechanic several miles away who does the work much more cheaply and does the preventative maintenance in a realistic manner compared to the dealers. Neighbor drives 150 miles per day and his wife does the same but doesn't commute each day; stays in their apartment in the city sometimes. Lots of miles but he feels he's got efficient costs on his cars despite their high maintenance.
>Now let's move on to today. Most all cars are pretty darn reliable.
Now that's the one thing you said I can agree with out of all the spin. You have your tense wrong: "Too much data supports the past claims of theese cars being have been reliable. But today more cars are all within close ratings in JD Powers, etc., in re reliability. So the jabs at "spin doctors for the Big Three of days gone by" aren't proper, are they?
I never said it's based on only working on sporty cars. It IS based on brand strength and product strength. For example, it also works for Mercedes, and they're not terribly sporty, but they have a strong luxury image and sell luxury cars. Cadillac has a strong image of luxury also...and they are successfully transitioning their image to include sport. Mazda advertises sporty and sells sporty-feeling cars.
Pontiac advertises driving excitement and sells rebadged snoozeboxes (except for the Solstice, granted). They haven't differentiated their product enough from the Chevy models for the "driving excitement" image to take hold, therefore their brand and product attributes don't match up. Giving up product names puts more focus on the brand name, which means if the brand itself is not successfully marketed and the cars don't match that marketing, there's going to be problems.
Selective memory is the case. I believe that their cars over 5 years, 10 years may cost the same or more to own than the equivalent other products without the smug factor. In some cases the timing belt replacements, and required maintenance items were outrageous at the smug dealers.
Neighbor has only 3 Honda Acuras since his daughter took his 4th. He only has them because he has a special Honda-Acura only mechanic several miles away who does the work much more cheaply and does the preventative maintenance in a realistic manner compared to the dealers.
Actual experience in variety of brands is best foundation for opinions. Anyone owning and driving more than one brand at same time and over many years can see differences between brands very clearly. Example would be owning/driving GM and Honda over say last 15-20 years. Other examples would be Chrysler and Toyota, Ford and Toyota, etc.
If one has owned driven GM "exclusively", then they are leading a shielded life. Same would be true of owning only Hondas over 15-20 years. If one has had 2+ brands (American, Japanese) over many years, the differences in design, engineering, quality and reliability will be very apparent.
Acuras in my experience have been bullit-proof. The used car marketplace reflects Acura and Honda superiority over GM in terms of retained value or percent of what you can get back of your original cost at trade-in time. That is pretty clear. For example, might want to compare 04 Acura TL with 04 Cadillac model.
Giving up product names puts more focus on the brand name, which means if the brand itself is not successfully marketed and the cars don't match that marketing, there's going to be problems.
Did not understand why they gave up on the Grand-Am name. Didn't this model produce good sales figures through the years? The G6 could have been the totally new and improved Grand-Am.
If present Grand Prix configuration going away, the the G8 could have been named the Grand Prix. That would have been fitting given the strong heritage of the model going back to the 60's. The coming TV commercials could be much more powerful with the Grand Prix name vs an anonymous acronym of G8. Will some think of the vegetable juice or something obnoxious in their computer files or world leader summit when G8 is mentioned. For anyone thinking of looking at or test driving to buy, would they rather have a G8 or a Grand Prix. (I had a Grand Prix a long time ago as well as a 71 Trans Am).
Ford saw the error of its ways by bringing back the Taurus name and putting on the 500. Being that their Fusion got/gets decent reviews, perhaps it could have been the new and improved Taurus. Will GM learn something from Ford.
Chrysler got it right by bringing back the Charger name for its RWD car.
Thankfully, the coming Camaro will be the Camaro and not a C8 or SS8, or SST, etc.
> If one has had 2+ brands (American, Japanese) over many years, the differences in design, engineering, quality and reliability will be very apparent.
You forgot to say tht it's in your opinion.
You missed my point because you are pro foreign. Neighbor acknowledges failures in transmissions and high maintenance costs which he mitigates by using a quality nondealer mechanic. He can afford to just buy a new one each time, but he prefers to buy a full-sized Honda Acura and drive the heck out of them up to 300, 400K if he can. He doesn't pretend his Legends, Integra (daughter's), and their current twin 3.5 RLs are perfect. Like most cars they cost to own.
You can read in discussions on Edmunds about the shortcomings of each car model. The trend has been toward the mean for all cars since 2000, in my opinion.
> If one has had 2+ brands (American, Japanese) over many years, the differences in design, engineering, quality and reliability will be very apparent.
You forgot to say tht it's in your opinion.
I suppose there are folks that do not have the ability to discern excellence of design, quality, reliability, etc on various attributes on the various brands of vehicles they own/drive.
I think GM made a huge mistake by not offering this vehicle with a 4 cylinder engine. The starting price for this car is higher then any car (not counting the VUE or Relay) they have ever sold. The strategy of moving Saturn upmarket is very different then the original mantra of the company back in 1990. I'm not sure their loyal customers are ready for it. People who shop Saturn are still thinking that $10k S-series. VW had this same issue when they tried the $50k Phaeton. Why not buy an Audi at that price?
It also doesn't help that you see very few commercials for the vehicle. And their previous offerings, L-Series, Ion, and Relay, have not set the world on fire. Saturn is finding it is hard to get yourself back on consumer's radar screen. it will be interesting to see how the Outlook does. Nice vehicle but do you really go shopping at Saturn for a $30k vehicle?
I was just playing with you. I saw you used the work CHEAPER to describe the Commodore. :P So this is the one which should have been the GTO they sent over here to the States?
And no, I would never argue with a Commodore over a name.
Absolutely, it is wishful thinking to believe a brand that has been asleep for the past 15 years can all of a sudden just wake up and start thinking they are a viable upscale brand. I remember those 10k dollar S-series. Crude, reliable and got the job done, but nothing special.
I don't see how this new stuff is any more special. Especially when the exact same thing is across the street and can be negotiated for less price.
Yes, to say people were mass hypnotized into filling out surveys incorrectly is a bit of spin. Or that people only go by ads they see to describe which cars are reliable. How about the owners of very fine looking and well advertised cars like a VW giving low scores in the Consumer Reports magazine. Wouldn't they be loyal and not say anything is wrong. This myth thing is a myth. Starting around 2002, most all cars on the market improved. Well there is the low scores for Range Rover and VW, yet they still sell. Personally, I would still avoid a first year Camry or a first year most any car, if you want the most reliable and improved car. That said, it is fun to have the first model out, something brand new, and the number of defects is going to be lower than it was on your fathers Oldsmobile. - Loren
Rebadged snoozeboxes? compared to what? I would agree the 2007 Torrent is pretty dull but the G6 GTP and GP GTP/GXP are quite fast and have decent handling. While technically speaking the G6 is a "rebadge" of the Malibu I would think most people would be hard pressed to find any similarities. The GP GXP and Impala SS share the same powertrain but they are not the same as C&D clearly stated after testing both cars. The GXP has staggered width performance tires, tap shift, cross drilled rotors, performance brake pads and a few other things that help it feel considerably sportier than the Impala. The midlevel GT is also much faster and sportier than the midlevel Impala LTZ. Pontiac is dumping its minivan and adding the G8 so I would tend to think they are headed in the right direction in terms of offering performance vehicles. Even the Torrent is getting a GXP model with 263hp and 6 speed.
when the G6 first came out and didnt match Grand Am sales many "experts" claimed this was because of the name change. Now after nearly 3 years the G6 is selling about as well as the Grand Am and probably is doing so with higher transaction prices and less fleet sales. The Grand Am had big rebates in it last few years on the market. I dont agree that people are so wed to nameplates that they wont consider a vehicle with a new nameplate.
"So this is the one which should have been the GTO they sent over here to the States? "
The current commodore is on a new RWD platform, it has nothing to do with the GTO. The GTO was on the old RWD Holden platform. This new platform is obviously designed to compete with top RWD cars from Europe and Japan.
I've been driving my mom's G6 quiteabit and yes it's prettydarn quick. She has a Blue GTP G6 and Iwassurprisedat how much I like it. The GXP version is suppose to get the 3.6 right with 263 hp ? I say to GM, just give us the engine from the Cadillac CTS with 300 hp. add some Navigation and a Bose 5.1 and let's rock this joint !!!!
Yes snoozeboxes. The Torrent, as you said. The minivan, as you said. Rebadged Cobalt, rebadged Corolla Wagon? Yeah, I can sure feel the excitement there.... To this point, Pontiac has mostly been rebadged snoozeboxes.
The G6 was a step in the right direction, but engining up the Torrent is going to be a mistake; that chassis isn't well designed for handling, especially the suspension (which is identical feeling to the Equinox, slow steering and all). They'd be better off co-opting the new VUE Red Line.
And if they're selling "driving exitement" it needs to be pervasive in ALL models and trims, not just the higher trim lines. The base models are still snoozers. The G5 is a mistake that should never have happened (Indeed, originally Pontiac didn't WANT it, and GM stated that Pontiac wouldn't be selling a rebadged Cobalt).
Scrap both the Clonebalt and the Clone-rolla Wagon, and get a version of the Saturn Astra. Call it the G3, or maybe just use G5 again (G4 is taken by a cable network). Pontiac is the next logical brand to take advantage of the stuff Saturn is bringing over from Europe, as "Euro-sporty" and "Driving excitement" naturally fit together. That's why the Solstice is so loveable.
maybe a beter question is what plants are not modern and need replacing?
Well the question should be what do you consider modern ???? If the UAW, allows these new work rules like is predicted the assembly process within' the plants will have to change thus may be starting from scratch might be better and more efficient ?
They have plenty of automobile's like the Silverado, where some of em' is being made in Mexico, that could be made here instead at a profit in one of these new facilty's ? How bout the G8, GTO, or a version of the Holden Statesman ???? We both know the Camaro is goingto be made in Canada,but what about the Buick Velite ???? I thought GM, was going to start building Saab's here in the U.S. ????? That's what I read about a year or so ago in Motor Trend, or on this site ???? I believe GM, has enough models over sea's and across the Southern border to honestly get worker's out of the job banks at these closed facilities. The bottom line is they are going to have to ink a deal with the UAW, to get these worker's out of the job's banks and back to work. They can build cars at a profit in this country and both sides will have to work togeather to make that happen a long with getting people at the government level elected with enough "intellegence" to grow the economy at least 1.8% instead of 1.3% and protect american business and jobs thus more auto sales.
So my question is why buy a Vue when the Cheapuinox AND the Pontiac Torrent can be had for less? No real advantages and all three are on the same mission as far as I can see.
The VUE is better built, looks nicer (my opinion, but it seems to be widely shared), has a more upscale interior, handles better, has an uplevel engine, 6 speed automatic as opposed to 5 speed, euro-design suspension, different steering rack, performance model option....want me to continue?
Once the oshawa plant is up and running it should be able to build up to 600,000 cars per year. They say they are redoing Oshawa 1 for the Camaro and that is at least 240,000 units per year with two shifts. Oshawa 2, which is supposedely closing, is not a separate plant. They are under the same roof and run right next to each other. Soooo, there is all kinds of room to build Zeta and Zeta derivative (Alpha) cars there.
GM will not get out of Mexico or Canada. They probably will not build new plants in Mexico but GM builds vehicles where they sell them and GM will continue to have assembly plants there.
Work rules have very little to do with plant design. It has more to do with breaks and who can do what skilled trades jobs. Will no longer need to call in an electrcian to change the light bulb. The mill wright can do it while he is stand there.
Saab's? Do not know but seems like they could build them anywhere in the world where the Epsilon II is built.
Comments
I'm not suprised my astro is holding up better $ wise and feels so much more solid in spite of CR probably rating the Honda 3x better.
As far as the mileage difference, the 3800 got 30 on the only trip I took (about 4700 lbs tot. load). No civic will get 40 with the foot on the brake. The 3800 just got 28 mpg on the last tank of 50-50 commute driving. The m/t Civic got 32 mpg on last tank on a mostly interstate trip without a/c.
Well if it get's a 600 hp. version of the LS-7 it should be a member of the 200 mph club.
-Rocky
I also have a 3800 auto mustang. It has rating of 90 HP less than my 3800 S/C Riv. They both get 28 mpg on my 94 mile round trip to work, but the mustang is considerably smaller and lighter. The mustang also needs an O2 sensor which is probably costing 1 or 2 mpg.
Rocky, you need to buy one to keep you under 100 MPH
Well Loren, you won't have to worry as it appears I might be stuck with the Impala, my wife forged my name to pal. It's not a bad car but I look at it like driving a Yaris, from a power stand point compared to my other cars. :sick:
I probably won't be able to get the car I'd want to drive and own for at least a few years depending on how my divorce goes.
The good thing about Michigan, is you can go 80 mph on the highway and the cops won't even turn their head but go over 80 and most will chase you down. I've gone by State Boys in the past 84 mph and they threatened me with their brake lights
-Rocky
Loren
Loren
The new Chrysler IPO in 4 or 5 years.
The union should lock in a option price now for a huge block of shares down the road. Then they could write a new slogan - buy your car from an employee owned company.
I'd like the same to happen for Ford and GM. A employee ran corporation keeps the greed of investors out to make a quick buck of the mix.
-Rocky
I just told my Step-dad to have a good nightat work as he is working 3rd shift at Delphi about a mile from their house. He is a Millwright making the Big Bucks. I just hope for his sake it lasts as he is a good man and deserves it.
-Rocky
I'm going to go after that dealership with my lawyer real soon as they hosed me pretty darn good. :mad:
Well it all cost me $119.00 dollars but I did get a interview in the process.
I just applied for a Armed Security Officer job tonight on-line transporting money to ATM's in a armored truck here in Grand Rapids. I don't know what it pays but I'm assuming it's got to be half-way decent ?
Well back to the GMC Acadia, it was a Red SLT AWD model. I was very impressed and can see why it was edmunds most significant vehicle after sitting in it. I was really impressed with the Bose 5.1
-Rocky
People sometimes pass info on that they want to believe themselves. My first, and possibly last, Toyota was perhaps the most expensive vehicle I have owned. I'm a CR subscriber, an honest one, and I do partake in the on-line survey, but I certainly do wonder how many others send in factual information when asked. You've heard of selective memory?
I don't know if you're aware of Lemon-Aid by Phil Edmonston.
He is the founder of the non-profit Automobile Protection Association. He writes that one of the automobile myths of our time, is that Honda and Toyota have impressive reliability. No longer; Trannies, engines, and sliding doors are their nemesis.
The ideal way to handle these things is to figure out at what speed the CTS-V hits its aero limit for 600 hp, and gear the car from there. In reality, GM will use one of its standard 6-speed gearsets and the car will probably end up gear limited.
I've driven it a few times, and, once you remember that the dials are in the middle, it actually is more comfortable - to me. Guess it has something to do with the distance from my eyes and that it isn't as much of an adjustment when looking at them from the road. For having 140HP and an automatic, it gets down the road pretty nicely. I haven't driven it any long distances (mainly from my house to the dealer), so I cannot comment on the seat comfort. Overall, a nice appliance - even looks it, in the color she wanted - Storm Grey.
We picked the ION for a couple of reasons: 1) the dent resistant side panels, which we thought would be a good feature to have in a college town; and 2) the AUX adapter for her iPod.
The new Astra may be your daughters next car. After graduation, and big bucks made,
This is the only car she's getting from us. I suspect she'll drive it for 10 or 15 years, since she cares nothing about cars or her image in what she drives. Plus, with her wanting to be a vet, graduation is a long way away.
Wonder if the current generation will appreciate the hatchbacks?
Ironically, we traded in a Ford Focus ZX5 on the ION. We had bought the Focus a few years ago as the car she was supposed to drive when she got her license. On the day we bought th Focus, the daughter was with us and refused to get the Focus sedan, and I figured the insurance would be too high on the 3-door, so we settled on the 5-door.
Unfortunately, we bought a stick shift because we couldn't find a Focus equipped the way we wanted (tilt steering, ABS) with an automatic. She tried to learn to drive it, but gave up, so I was driving the Focus and she was using my L300.
When I started looking at $25-30K cars as a replacement for the Focus and let the daughter just have the L300, the wife decided that it made more sense to keep the payment in the same range as the Focus. Ergo, the ION.
This does NOT mean that a GM or Ford say is not as good or better in any particular model comparison for reliability. I just do not find any data to support the claim that over the last few decades the average car produced by the Japan big two was not more reliable. Too much data supports the past claims of these cars being reliable. Now let's move on to today. Most all cars are pretty darn reliable. End of story.
Loren
You are right and wrong. Toyota's actual names aren't any better than GM's; we can agree on that. Toyota is not named any better than Ford or Chrysler, either.
As another post pointed out, the reason Toyota and Honda's names are better is because of what they represent. Just like the name "Suburban" has a value, so does the name "Camry" or "Accord". The Camry name dates back to 1984. The Accord name goes back to (about) 1976. The value of the name represents the market perception of the value of the vehicles. Successful vehicles that are reengineered keep their names. Hence the Suburban with the longest name history of almost any vehicle.
For GM, they've done tons of name changing over the last 30 years. This represents models that didn't do well in the market and have some real or perceived stigma.
Yes, even Toyota had the Celica, the Echo. GM has had a huge number of names (often exacerbated by the number of divisions, when a platform tanks there might be 3 rebadges from Buick, Pontiac, Chevy, etc. that represent almost the same vehicle). Those names go to the great name heaven in the sky. The plethora of GM dead names represents the plethora of failed models over the years.
GMs names have often had poor consistency, and often sounded silly as if they wanted to imply a level of quality or excitement that never really existed. Examples are Sunfire, Firenza, Fiero, Firebird (they like fire!), Sunbird (they like birds, too!), Calais, Venture, etc. Perhaps the best name that was true to the car was "Cavalier". All those years not caring about the market. :P
But names aren't the real issue. It's the quality of the vehicles behind them. Hopefully with the recent improvements, we will some names from GM that will still be in use 30 years from now.
Report finds most of the crosstown rivals' models performed worse than they did a year ago.
DETROIT -- All of General Motors Corp.'s and the Chrysler Group's brands scored below average in initial vehicle quality, J.D. Power and Associates reported Wednesday.
While Ford Motor Co. had more segment-leading 2007 model-year vehicles than Toyota Motor Corp. in the annual survey, which tracks quality during the first 90 days of ownership, its crosstown rivals stumbled.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070607/AUTO01/706070417/1148
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070607/AUTO01/706070378/1148
Porsche and Lexus remained virtually the same but Hyundai dropped from 3rd to 12 (102-125).
Cadillac 7th to 25. (117-135) disgusting drop. Could the Escalade be that bad? CTS/DTS/STS were carryover!
GMC also dropped from 119 to 131. Again the only vehicle changed was the Yukon?
Interesting that Chevrolet stayed at about industry average (124 to 129). Perhaps improvements on some of the chevy car models made up for the Tahoe/Suburban? Also Chevy is not so heavily volume biased to the large SUV's as GMC.
Saturn/Pontiac/Buick stayed about the same.
Saab increased quality from 163 to 133. A somewhat significant improvement. Hummer improved only slightly form 171 to 162.
All in all I would surmize (I can only surmize) that they new SUV's with their huge volumes pulled down the divisions that sell heavily in SUV's-GMC/Cadillac/Chevy with fisrt year problems. Be very interesting to see their actual numbers.
Overall though the difference in intial quality went down. 91 - 204 (2006) and 91 - 170 (2007).
The real difference in problems is +- .25 problems per car. Not a heck of a lot of difference. I mean the best is aobut 1 problem per car and the meat of the industry is at 1.3 problems per car.
Intersting that the GP/LaCrosse Oshawa plant won best in America IQS plant with score of 42. The Grand Prix won the "large car" segment award.
Also I see the Suburban/Tahoe were 2/3 in their segment under the Sequoia. Per my above comment I surmized that they were the vehicles that dragged down GMC/Chevrolet. Actual scores are not available but SUV's have much higher PPH scores than the cars so it is still probable the new SUV's hurt the divisional scores. Escalade did not make the ranking this time.
hey how can the Monte Carlo be a midsize while the Grand Prix a large? Same platform. They must be on the border. Camry does not show up in the rankings again.
You have a problem with GM and thus many of your posts are full of half truths. GM's increase was driven by quite a few models and most of those models are not fleet darlings. YOu failed to mention Saturn's increase or the increase of the Acadia which is obviously not a fleet vehicle. YOu are making excuses because the sales numbers dont line up with your opinions.
As for average incentive per vehicle, that number means little unless we know the average price of the vehicles sold. Since GM sells a lot of trucks (which are expensive) it makes sense that their average incentive cost per vehicle would be higher than Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, etc. On top of that those figured include financing which is not the same as cash back rebates. GM has done a lot of low rate financing offers and that is OK by me because it doesnt affect resale value.
I think you need to talk to more import owners. My sister in law has a 2002 Camry and has had numerous problems, several of which have cost her serious money.
Can you let me know where you found out that alpha numeric names can only apply to sporty cars? I have never heard that before. Hyundai was using alpha numeric names on their old large sedan and it was hardly sporty or impressive. Pontiac only makes three cars and in their top trim levels I would say they are reasonably sporty. I think the G6 GTO, GP GXP and Solstic GXP are just as sporty as anything sold by Mazda, Nissan or Honda. I would think the G8 is only going to improve Pontiac's reputation.
Yes. I can see (shockingly) that you have read nothing about this car. I think your opinions would be a little more informed if you actually read some online and print magazines. MT and Edmunds did reviews of the Commodore and were VERY impressed with the car. In Australia this car is compared to the E class, 5 series, etc. and holds its own. This is not Crown Vic or a 60s muscle car that cant do anything but go in a straight line.
You can argue about the name, but the performance is undeniable.
Actually the new Tundra has higer incentives than GM's new pick ups. Toyota is really trying to get a bigger portion of that market to fill up their new assembly plant(sounds like GM trying to keep their plants full. Toyota has introduced the new truck against a formidable opponent and in times of high gas prices.
Also chrylser and Ford are really incentivizing their trucks to keep the cash flow going and that really cuts into Toyotas projections.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
http://www.jdpower.com/press-releases/pressrelease.aspx?id=2007088
Lexus, Honda and Toyota are still doing fine. Acura has fallen. Hyundai, Kia have risen.
Ford has risen despite lackluster performance from its Detroit rivals.
Benz, Lincoln have risen. But BMW seems to be in deep trouble just like Caddy.
Now that's the one thing you said I can agree with out of all the spin. You have your tense wrong: "Too much data supports the past claims of theese cars
beinghave been reliable. But today more cars are all within close ratings in JD Powers, etc., in re reliability. So the jabs at "spin doctors for the Big Three of days gone by" aren't proper, are they?2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Pontiac advertises driving excitement and sells rebadged snoozeboxes (except for the Solstice, granted). They haven't differentiated their product enough from the Chevy models for the "driving excitement" image to take hold, therefore their brand and product attributes don't match up. Giving up product names puts more focus on the brand name, which means if the brand itself is not successfully marketed and the cars don't match that marketing, there's going to be problems.
Neighbor has only 3 Honda Acuras since his daughter took his 4th. He only has them because he has a special Honda-Acura only mechanic several miles away who does the work much more cheaply and does the preventative maintenance in a realistic manner compared to the dealers.
Actual experience in variety of brands is best foundation for opinions. Anyone owning and driving more than one brand at same time and over many years can see differences between brands very clearly. Example would be owning/driving GM and Honda over say last 15-20 years. Other examples would be Chrysler and Toyota, Ford and Toyota, etc.
If one has owned driven GM "exclusively", then they are leading a shielded life. Same would be true of owning only Hondas over 15-20 years. If one has had 2+ brands (American, Japanese) over many years, the differences in design, engineering, quality and reliability will be very apparent.
Acuras in my experience have been bullit-proof. The used car marketplace reflects Acura and Honda superiority over GM in terms of retained value or percent of what you can get back of your original cost at trade-in time. That is pretty clear. For example, might want to compare 04 Acura TL with 04 Cadillac model.
Did not understand why they gave up on the Grand-Am name. Didn't this model produce good sales figures through the years? The G6 could have been the totally new and improved Grand-Am.
If present Grand Prix configuration going away, the the G8 could have been named the Grand Prix. That would have been fitting given the strong heritage of the model going back to the 60's. The coming TV commercials could be much more powerful with the Grand Prix name vs an anonymous acronym of G8. Will some think of the vegetable juice or something obnoxious in their computer files or world leader summit when G8 is mentioned. For anyone thinking of looking at or test driving to buy, would they rather have a G8 or a Grand Prix. (I had a Grand Prix a long time ago as well as a 71 Trans Am).
Ford saw the error of its ways by bringing back the Taurus name and putting on the 500. Being that their Fusion got/gets decent reviews, perhaps it could have been the new and improved Taurus. Will GM learn something from Ford.
Chrysler got it right by bringing back the Charger name for its RWD car.
Thankfully, the coming Camaro will be the Camaro and not a C8 or SS8, or SST, etc.
Cheers!
You forgot to say tht it's in your opinion.
You missed my point because you are pro foreign. Neighbor acknowledges failures in transmissions and high maintenance costs which he mitigates by using a quality nondealer mechanic. He can afford to just buy a new one each time, but he prefers to buy a full-sized Honda Acura and drive the heck out of them up to 300, 400K if he can. He doesn't pretend his Legends, Integra (daughter's), and their current twin 3.5 RLs are perfect. Like most cars they cost to own.
You can read in discussions on Edmunds about the shortcomings of each car model. The trend has been toward the mean for all cars since 2000, in my opinion.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You forgot to say tht it's in your opinion.
I suppose there are folks that do not have the ability to discern excellence of design, quality, reliability, etc on various attributes on the various brands of vehicles they own/drive.
It also doesn't help that you see very few commercials for the vehicle. And their previous offerings, L-Series, Ion, and Relay, have not set the world on fire. Saturn is finding it is hard to get yourself back on consumer's radar screen. it will be interesting to see how the Outlook does. Nice vehicle but do you really go shopping at Saturn for a $30k vehicle?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
And no, I would never argue with a Commodore over a name.
Loren
I don't see how this new stuff is any more special. Especially when the exact same thing is across the street and can be negotiated for less price.
when the G6 first came out and didnt match Grand Am sales many "experts" claimed this was because of the name change. Now after nearly 3 years the G6 is selling about as well as the Grand Am and probably is doing so with higher transaction prices and less fleet sales. The Grand Am had big rebates in it last few years on the market. I dont agree that people are so wed to nameplates that they wont consider a vehicle with a new nameplate.
The current commodore is on a new RWD platform, it has nothing to do with the GTO. The GTO was on the old RWD Holden platform. This new platform is obviously designed to compete with top RWD cars from Europe and Japan.
-Rocky
The G6 was a step in the right direction, but engining up the Torrent is going to be a mistake; that chassis isn't well designed for handling, especially the suspension (which is identical feeling to the Equinox, slow steering and all). They'd be better off co-opting the new VUE Red Line.
And if they're selling "driving exitement" it needs to be pervasive in ALL models and trims, not just the higher trim lines. The base models are still snoozers. The G5 is a mistake that should never have happened (Indeed, originally Pontiac didn't WANT it, and GM stated that Pontiac wouldn't be selling a rebadged Cobalt).
Scrap both the Clonebalt and the Clone-rolla Wagon, and get a version of the Saturn Astra. Call it the G3, or maybe just use G5 again (G4 is taken by a cable network). Pontiac is the next logical brand to take advantage of the stuff Saturn is bringing over from Europe, as "Euro-sporty" and "Driving excitement" naturally fit together. That's why the Solstice is so loveable.
Well the question should be what do you consider modern ???? If the UAW, allows these new work rules like is predicted the assembly process within' the plants will have to change thus may be starting from scratch might be better and more efficient ?
They have plenty of automobile's like the Silverado, where some of em' is being made in Mexico, that could be made here instead at a profit in one of these new facilty's ? How bout the G8, GTO, or a version of the Holden Statesman ???? We both know the Camaro is goingto be made in Canada,but what about the Buick Velite ???? I thought GM, was going to start building Saab's here in the U.S. ????? That's what I read about a year or so ago in Motor Trend, or on this site ???? I believe GM, has enough models over sea's and across the Southern border to honestly get worker's out of the job banks at these closed facilities. The bottom line is they are going to have to ink a deal with the UAW, to get these worker's out of the job's banks and back to work. They can build cars at a profit in this country and both sides will have to work togeather to make that happen a long with getting people at the government level elected with enough "intellegence" to grow the economy at least 1.8% instead of 1.3% and protect american business and jobs thus more auto sales.
-Rocky
Loren
GM will not get out of Mexico or Canada. They probably will not build new plants in Mexico but GM builds vehicles where they sell them and GM will continue to have assembly plants there.
Work rules have very little to do with plant design. It has more to do with breaks and who can do what skilled trades jobs. Will no longer need to call in an electrcian to change the light bulb. The mill wright can do it while he is stand there.
Saab's? Do not know but seems like they could build them anywhere in the world where the Epsilon II is built.