Enough already about the Camry ride. It is not all that mushy. Heck, GM dumped Olds. 88, and now someone has to take up the slack. The Camry is now Americas family sedan, and very capable indeed. I find that it has a few rough spots these days, and perhaps the overall reliability could be slipping just a tad. Who knows, after all, someone had to continue the Olds. line. I guess one could argue that the Impala is the Cutlass / Delta88 replacement for the middle class working stiff, but I doubt that. Olds. had that just a bit richer feel, or air about her, and now that be the Camry. Once Impala is updated to a new car, perhaps the tide will turn. And yes, I know they sell -- fleets love'em.
The LaCrosse, in theory should be the new Olds. middle class car, I guess. Strange days have found Buick however. Stuck between the current times of being seen as an older gentlemen car, and the past when it was upper class, as in the doctors car, it went somehow into a black hole. If GM wanted to take on Camry with this car, they could make the 3.6V6 & 6sp. standard and the top line suspension and sell her for $24K. Shall we say a Break Through car, like the CTS? With old engines, and transmissions and not a lot of advertising aimed at Camry for the LaCrosse, she may be doomed. Loren
I know all about the 3 and I have driven it. My point is why is mileage always mentioned when discussing the Cobalt but never the 3? The 3's mileage is nowhere near the Corolla or Civic and yet people aren't saying "Mazda needs to redesign the 3 ASAP and give it competitive mileage". Regardless of what cars you think the Cobalt competes with, the fact of the matter is the Cobalt, 3, corolla, civic, etc. are all in the same size and price class.
The 3 offers outstanding driving dynamics which are valued in the segment, while the Cobalt only offers slightly larger engines (the SS being discontinued) which aren't valued in the segment. Cobalt needs something else to distinguish itself, and fuel economy is the easiest feature to address since GM already has powertrains that fit the platform.
Now those I liked for some unknown reason. Only ever drove a rental and spent much more time in it as a passenger. It was nice for passengers if a touch boring for the driver.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
I'm a 6-footer with long legs. The seat wouldn't go back far enough for me to fit my legs between the wheel and the seat, for one thing. Seats were also too soft and squishy, with little to no support. When it feels like that, the thing I care LEAST about is how fast it goes. Instead, I care about how fast I can go drive something else.
0-60 is also not a big deal to me, so long as it's less than 10 seconds (I can live with 10.1 maybe). Speed and horsepower aren't everything, though you keep coming back to it. That's been American "car culture" for a long time, I realize that, to promote HP above all else. Cobalt has more HP than Civic, Corolla, Mazda3, Ford Focus among others. But out of all of those, the Cobalt has been a comparative loser in sales.
Hopefully though, it'll be gone soon, and we'll see if GMDAT can do better than GM with designing a desirable small car.
Saying the Aura is a good car doesnt take anythign away from the Fusion, but objectively speaking there is no way the Fusion is a superior car.
The Fusion has areas of superiority, notably having an optional AWD system. This year they're supposed to get the Duratec35 as well. Just from photos, the Aura's interior looks a bit nicer, however.
Then why pay more and get less? Just get the Mazda3 for a drivers car, and top notch interior, or the Civic for gas mileage and new age look, or the Corolla for reliability, gas mileage - or new Corolla and add new looks. The Cobalt is sorta the none of above checked off item here. :P Loren
Born from jets? Does the exhaust smell a bit like kerosene.
As FWD cars go, perhaps a Saab would be one of the fun ones. Keep an eye on reliability data, as going back in time a few years, it wasn't so pretty. Overall look is neat, if not a bit less Saab than one expects to see. Ah, the good ol' days of odd cars. Egg Saabs, and loaf a bread Volvos. Those were the days my friend. Loren
Hydrogen you say? Lots of new nuclear power plants coming online to charge up the fuel, I take it? I doubt that hydrogen is the way of the future. If they did that, I do hope they find a way to control the water output -- what a mess in several ways that would be. And new water source I suppose is desalination? Hummm?
The Fusion actually offers more feature content than a similarly-priced Legacy, as well as more horsepower. Of course, the Legacy is available in a wagon version, while the Fusion is not.
GM is expected to announce today that it will reassign more than 500 engineers working on fuel cells and fuel cell vehicle development from the automaker's research operation to its powertrain and global engineering divisions.
Any ideas where GM thinks the hydrogen fuel is going to come from?
I know all about the 3 and I have driven it. My point is why is mileage always mentioned when discussing the Cobalt but never the 3? The 3's mileage is nowhere near the Corolla or Civic and yet people aren't saying "Mazda needs to redesign the 3 ASAP and give it competitive mileage". Regardless of what cars you think the Cobalt competes with, the fact of the matter is the Cobalt, 3, corolla, civic, etc. are all in the same size and price class.
Perhaps it is because other cars excel in something:
Civic and Corolla lead in mileage for non-hybrids. They also lead in reliability. Mazda 3 leads in economy car handling. Jetta leads in small car interior quality.
So when you say the Corolla has great mileage, it's because handling is not this car's strength. When people talk about the Mazda 3 and handling, they don't talk about mileage, because that is not this car's leadership quality.
Where does Cobalt lead? People can't compare it to other cars and talk about how the Cobalt is great at anything, even though it's at least decent in most areas. Cobalt's claim to fame is that it is an American Nameplate.
If I want a small car and great mileage, I'll get a Corolla if I am after reliability and mileage. If I want handling I'll buy a Mazda 3. Most non-renters won't buy the Cobalt, because they're going to go after the qualities they want and buy the best of breed for those qualities.
I'm sure that instead of saying I have a good point you'll come back with a snappy argument, that is your style.
Keep an eye on reliability data, as going back in time a few years, it wasn't so pretty.
That is true but I'd be willing to gamble with those risks to own one of the safest if not the safest car you can drive. I imagine most of the bugs have been worked out of this refreshened 08' Saab 9-3 by now.
Overall look is neat, if not a bit less Saab than one expects to see.
I actually see more "Saab" in the new 08' than in recent years. It has that styling cue from the past the "clam shell" grill.
Ah, the good ol' days of odd cars.
Well we have enough "odd" cars running around on our streets today. Some of them are so odd and ugly I feel embarrassed for the driver. Loren, needs to get himself a Dodge Sprinter or xB !!!! :P
Egg Saabs, and loaf a bread Volvos. Those were the days my friend.
Yeah, y'all didn't have much taste back then !!!! Yuk !!!! :P j/k
There's been some rumours floating around of a project at Saab called "Black Turbo", which apparently pertains to the updated 9-3 range that we'll see later this year. It's believed to be a boosted engine configuration, though I haven't heard any pariculars as to whether it relates to a four or six cylinder engine.
Given that the updated 9-3 will be getting an AWD setup, one could guess that the Black Turbo project is a boosted engine setup that would be available due to the power being distributed via all four wheels.
One Swedish contact via email offered the following:
[a guy he knows from GM powertrain]......has been in Death Valley driving a 300 hp engine for an GM project, but not knowing for which product I could guess that it might be for the 9-3 with XWD.
Obviously this is quite speculative.
If you've got any info on the Black Turbo project then feel free to clue us in via comments. Or, if you prefer the more anonymous approach, contact me directly via email.
I'd like to see Edmunds and it's staff or in the know member's dig further in to this story. I please want every stone turned until some body at GM or Saab, start's talking. We need to get uncle Bob, (Lutz) or somebody to confirm or deny this. Is the Black Turbo project, a return of the high performance Viggen ????? Is the "black turbo" XWD just the 4 door sedan 9-3 or is it available in the Convertible ? When would this "Black Turbo" feature be available ?
Somebody please be a whistle blower and answer these questions cuz I wanna know and other's I imagine wouldn't mind knowing something and not have to wait forever ?
62vettefp, you got to know something, right ? :surprise:
The 280 hp V-6 turbo, I don't think is the "Black Turbo" is it even though it has 30 more hp. ? The statement above says 300 hp. I've read on other sites say 290-320 hp.
I guess at some point I will find out the answer's to my question's but boy it would sure be exciting to get some inside info to get my autobahn like juices flowing again. :shades:
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Seat belt and supplemental restraint system coverage for five years, unlimited mileage.
Anti-corrosion warranty for six years, unlimited mileage (9-5 Sedan, 9-5 SportCombi, and 9-7X SUV).
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Rocky, it's good to see you posting. Hope you are getting settled in back in Michigan. I like the looks of the Saab 9-3 SportCombi. If they would offer a diesel I would be tempted.
If I was in your finacial situation and wanted a Caddy, I'd wait and get the 09' CTS-V with 500-600 hp of course.
GM would be wise to tone down the HP escalation. There is no logical/practical need for cars with 500-600 HP or more.
There was an article in Friday's WSJ about various crashes of exotic cars by their owners because of too much HP. Article said that more exotic mfrs are offering driving schools to buyers of their vehicles.
What with the litigation in US over various issues involving consumer safety and mfr responsibility, it might be wise for GM to not pursue/offer cars with mega HP. How long before someone with a high HP GM car, whose owner causes an accident due to negligence that resulted in injury/death to others, that lawyers sue GM for putting a dangerous product on public roads.
There was an article in Friday's WSJ about various crashes of exotic cars by their owners because of too much HP. Article said that more exotic mfrs are offering driving schools to buyers of their vehicles.
Well it's hard to go from being driven in a limo most of your life to driving a mega horsepower car. Performance Driving is a perishable skill and I'd be willing to bet a few of these owner's had a couple of cocktail's in them which contributed to their crash.
What with the litigation in US over various issues involving consumer safety and mfr responsibility, it might be wise for GM to not pursue/offer cars with mega HP. How long before someone with a high HP GM car, whose owner causes an accident due to negligence that resulted in injury/death to others, that lawyers sue GM for putting a dangerous product on public roads.
That statement sounds like one from the Anti-Gun lobby. No one wants to take personal responsibility and it's easier to blame the manufactor or the product it's self. :mad: What I'm saying xrunner2, not everyone wants to drive a camry. Is the CTS-V, overkill ? Ya betchya, but that is what sells and nobody has yet had a problem with the German's mega power offerings.
Yeah, a diesel would be cool for a lot of folks but that is only available for the Euro, marketas far as I know.
They are going to offer a Bio-Power engine as I'm sure you are well aware of but I'm sure you only want diesel.
I myself am worried about getting enough power and good enough fuel economy. 300-350 horsepower range from the factory would be the perfect "black turbo" car. :shades:
Yeah gagrice, the new 9-3's are indeed awesome. I've gotten a little free time to post but I'm leaving in a few so I'll talk at y'all later.
"And so far, you've failed to present any evidence that they aren't, except for the fact that they don't rate your favorite cars highly, or first in class."
CR, come on. They would be on the bottom of my list for auto reference. Remember this is a company who gets their dot to dot surveys only from those who subscribe to the rag. Why did they respond or not respond. What are their demographics. There is so many flaws with their owner evaluations. I will say it again, this company is getting more and more untrustworthy especially with the child safety seat debockle in which they out sourced the test and that company claimed only 2 of 11, or whatever the number, were acceptable.
That is the beauty of a modern diesel engine. You can run any percentage of bio-diesel without a problem. In fact bio-diesel will clean out a lot of crap from poor diesel. Need to change filters more often because of the cleaning action.
Rocky, hope you got my last email, or the one a couple weeks back on this issue and something else. I sent it to your new address. Just got an email from your old address - what's up with that? If you did not at least change the password, someone, as in you know who, may be reading all your email. That is all I can say here. Send me an email.
Well, if they ever charge citizens of the US a fee / tax based on engine displacement, Saab may be selling even more in USA. HP via turbo on a 2.0 engine = good performance per taxed dollar. I like the looks, inside and out. Not sure about reliability of the latest models. Performance seems to be good. Looks like a good bet for use in the snow belt. The NewMalibu looks like a less expensive alternative with the 3.6 V6 engine. Loren
"The 3 offers outstanding driving dynamics which are valued in the segment, while the Cobalt only offers slightly larger engines (the SS being discontinued) which aren't valued in the segment. "
The SS is being discontinued, but the 173hp engine lives on. Only the 205hp engine is being cancelled as well as the SS/SC coupe model. I have yet to see the Cobalt SS compared with the 3 but my guess is it could hold its own. I dont see how great handling is supposed to give the 3 a pass on fuel economy. The bottom line is that it's economy trails the civic/corolla just like the Cobalt and people act like they dont notice.
" I realize that, to promote HP above all else. Cobalt has more HP than Civic, Corolla, Mazda3, Ford Focus among others. But out of all of those, the Cobalt has been a comparative loser in sale"
Incorrect again. The Cobalt outsells the 3 by a large margin and its sales are pretty close to the Focus. I'm pretty sure it outsold the Focus last year. I never said 0-60 times are all that counts, but I did say I would take the cobalt's 148hp if its real world mileage is only slightly worse than the much slower civic. Based on that MT test I think there is real possibility that the Cobalt can average within 3mpg of a civic.
"The Fusion has areas of superiority, notably having an optional AWD system. This year they're supposed to get the Duratec35 as well. Just from photos, the Aura's interior looks a bit nicer, however."
Never heard about this 3.5L engine. When the MKZ came out Ford specifically said the Fusion/Milan were not getting this engine. AWD is the ONLY area where the Fusion has a clear advantage.
"Then why pay more and get less? Just get the Mazda3 for a drivers car, and top notch interior, or the Civic for gas mileage and new age look, or the Corolla for reliability, gas mileage - or new Corolla and add new looks. The Cobalt is sorta the none of above checked off item here."
Look either you think mileage is the most important factor in this class or you dont. When the 3 wasnt in the discussion the Cobalt was called an also ran due to its economy. Now the story has changed to "less than stellar economy is OK as long as its a Mazda". Ever heard of double standards? Bottom line is that if saving fuel is your only concern the Civic and Corolla are the best choices. If you are looking for other factors the field is more wide open. At this point the Cobalt is probably the 2nd oldest small car out there and its not even a bad car. Neither is the Elantra or Lancer or golf. SPeaking of Golf, there is ANOTHER small car with relatively poor mileage that seems to get a free pass because its an import. 23/30mpg is totally unacceptable for this class of car.
But the Mazda3 and Golf have a standard to point to which exceeds Cobalt, other than gas mileage. First one has to find some standard of excellent for the Cobalt, then proceed. It is just there, as in an also ran.
Look either you think mileage is the most important factor in this class or you dont.
Well, I never did. Fact is, the Mazda3 doesn't get the hottest gas mileage, true. But it's handling is so incredibly good that some people are willing to make that tradeoff. Those that aren't usually buy Civics. I ask again, in what area does the Cobalt lead? Nowhere...it falls short on fuel economy, handling, and comfort. The only place it used to lead was pure HP as compared only to front-drive models. The Impreza comes close with 170 HP, the Caliber as well, plus you get AWD, so Cobalt is one-upped unless someone is looking specifically for front-drive ONLY. And for a significant percent of Cobalt's life, the Sentra had it beat on HP too (2.5, plus the SE-R over the SS).
Golf? What's a golf besides a rotten sport? :P I don't know anything about golf, but I know the Rabbit holds an advantage in interior appointments ("Luxury" if you will, though barely so), which is it's selling point. Kind of a cheezy one if you ask me, but VW still manages to sell them, so I guess it appeals to someone. I know the Cobalt does too, but I still can't figure out what the appeal of it is.
So tell me, WHAT exactly is the selling point for the Cobalt? In what area does it beat the competition in the arena of small cars? GM themselves have said there's no money in these things for them (too hard to make a profit), that's what makes me think they almost don't bother.
I say the sooner they replace it with something Astra-based or something from GMDAT, the better. Especially with rising gas prices, smaller cars are just going to get more and more popular.
Ford changed it's mind. The 500/Taurus and Fusion (and clones) are targeted to get the 3.5L for 2008 last I heard. Most likely because sticking with the 3.0 gave the competition a selling point due to having more horsepower.
I'm with xrunner on this one. The horsepower race is getting way out of hand. While not everyone wants to drive a Camry (although they work for me, even with 4 cylinders ), 500-600 hp is overkill for the street. It's more than a safety issue; it involves national security and our need to cut oil imports from countries hostile to us.
Translation: Mulally has been shaking things up at Ford and making some good moves IMO. Renaming the 500 for one, putting the new motor in it, another. Bringing some new Lincolns to market, you can see that someone is making some changes. Will they pay off, and in time, remains to be seen, but he's a mover, a shaker, and a winner. I'm betting Ford survives and becomes the best company it has been since 1986 - when they re-invented the family sedan and changed the automotive world. But I'll bet Ford is a very different company then.
GM has pulled off something I did not think would work. They managed to go from nearly dead, to nicely recovering overnight by bringing out their new truck line, even in a bad gas market. I think personally, they are within striking distance of taking over the F-150s dominance. We shall see. IMO, yes, it's working - the country likes GM. We all want GM to win, to survive, to make it. Moreso than Ford or Chrysler, and I don't know why, but we seem to. We give GM hope.
It's more than a safety issue; it involves national security and our need to cut oil imports from countries hostile to us.
It might be a national security issue but the Bush administration sure hasn't invested the capital neccessary to rid ourselves off of foreign oil. GM, is in the business of building automobile's and building a likable image. If horsepower didn't help sell vehicle's then their would be no market for such vehicle's. The automobile manufactor's are not going to spend billion's and get burned and foreign oil stick's around as the main source of fuel for many years to come. As I look at the sitiuation now all I see is lip service from our government and thus so do the automobile company's.
The FiveHundred becomes the Taurus oh whoopee. A famous rental car. The first effort was pretty good, as Ford copied the Audi look as a cheaper version made in America and sold to the masses. Now when the engine mounts loosened/broke and the engine drops out, or a tranny needed work and it would cost a fortune to work on, I would imagine the love affair with the first gen. Taurus was over. That said, the look of Audi is not bad -- nicely Euro simple, yet slightly rounded. The second effort as a knock-off look of an Infinity J30 went downhill quickly. Now the Galaxie 500 had a good run without being run downhill. The Thunderbird, prior to the retro car effort, looked pretty good. That one looks like a BMW 633csi side profile. Currently the Fusion is not bad looking and performing, and IMHO, the Milan looks even better. Overall, it just seems like Ford is in a holding pattern, just circling around. The Crossover thing is sort of interesting, so possibly score another one, as in a couple things going on.
Rocky, hope you got my last email, or the one a couple weeks back on this issue and something else. I sent it to your new address. Just got an email from your old address - what's up with that? If you did not at least change the password, someone, as in you know who, may be reading all your email. That is all I can say here. Send me an email.
Loren, send your emails to old account (valor). I changed the password. The Viking, one I'm no longer using pal. Sorry for the confusion and no I don't think I got your last email.
Well, if they ever charge citizens of the US a fee / tax based on engine displacement, Saab may be selling even more in USA. HP via turbo on a 2.0 engine = good performance per taxed dollar. I like the looks, inside and out. Not sure about reliability of the latest models. Performance seems to be good. Looks like a good bet for use in the snow belt. The NewMalibu looks like a less expensive alternative with the 3.6 V6 engine.
I hope they don't charge a tax like that. We will see how thereliability and quality scores go but I assume Saab, will only get better as time goes. They will probably never be the highest as it looks like GM, is going to use them to experiment with new technology. I like that idea and since I will likely lease I will never have to worry about being out of warranty.
The new 08' 9-3 looks to me as a big winner. I justneedto find out more info on this Black Turbo, as I readonanother site saying it could be 320+ hp. :surprise: That's my kind of Saab.
gagrice, I did not know that bio-diesel cleans engines ????
Wow, do you know why ????? What is the cleaning agent in bio-diesel ?????
I saw on one website a big wig talking about E85 and E100 Ethanol programs for the Saab Bio-Power engine series. Now if they'd add a performance oriented 2-mode hybrid battery to these car's.
Biodiesel is a very good solvent. There is a downside. It will clean gunk out of the tank, lines and injectors. Changing the filter often will protect the engine from all that gunk getting in. In colder climates biodiesel can gel if not mixed with #1 or #2 diesel. Another plus for biodiesel is it can be mixed in any percentage with any other diesel.
A Saab set up to run on E85 would be high performance. It would probably get about 25% less MPG than unleaded gas. The E100 vehicles will not run on unleaded last I read. So that would present a problem finding fuel in most of the US.
I am still not convinced on GMs two mode hybrid. I am waiting to see how it pans out. If you always lease and never own, cost of repair is not an issue.
The horsepower race has been a straw tiger issue. The sporty folks are easily swayed by a higher horsepower number from an advertisement but never check to see if the torque output used at normal driving speeds and lower speeds such as starting from a stopsign have been lowered in the process.
The magazines also perpetuate the image that a higher horsepower motor is better, because, well, it makes you see like a more powerful man (or woman) as you drive your 325 horsepower car at 45 mph down a boulevard. They're not consistent are they. Oxymorons.
Buyers are stupid as Barnum Bailey or someone said about suckers are born every minute. Save the flame emails--I am a buyer so I fit taht category. I also am a constituent.
Most constituents also are not smart. We let our politicians say one thing to get elected, say a different thing in office, and then actually do a third thing in their actual voting/lobbying/negotiating. Foreign oil benefits big business. Need I say more? Whether yu're Bush, Clinton, Bush, Reagan, Carter..., big business now has the lobby power in DC. The impact on GM and Ford in this will be that there will be a push to smaller cars and tinier motors as a savior for use of big oil and saving our country. On the ohter hand there will be no limit on trucks and the V8s that the wealthy people and government folks drive.
The fuel rules will deal only in averages and not in limits on maximums within the groups. So Honda and Toyota with their lower costs, so far, producing their imports and US production, will already have more high average economy vehicles. Their trucks products won't be pinched either. That would by lobby heaven suicide in DC and State capitols.
The consumer will be paying more for littler fuel sippers that aren't as safe. GM and Ford will have to produce tiny motors and tiny cars to move their averages. Buyers will lose.
The politicians and important people will continue in their large V8 SUVs as always and in their large vehicles as always.
Setting aside the political issues, the horsepower races past and present have always been a case of "mine's bigger than yours."
There were 3 major hp races since WWII: 1949 to 1957, 1964 to 1971, and from about the late 80s to the present.
A recession and growing interest in small cars (think VW Bug and Chevy Corvair) ended the first one, plus Detroit was pressured into dropping its very public sponsorship of stock car racing (although "under the table" support continued afterward).
The second hp race was ended by lower compression ratios, unleaded gas, and "Rube Goldberg" emissions controls. The dual oil shocks of the 70s and hefty insurance surcharges on muscle cars did their bit as well.
The current race could be done in by recession, higher mpg rules, sky-high gas prices, or a bigger blowup in the Mideast (Iran?).
The FiveHundred becomes the Taurus oh whoopee. A famous rental car.
But if you were ARM, Loren, what would you do? Scrap the Taurus brand, and keep trying to sell that ugly 500? May as well scrap that too, but they need a larger car. I thought it was an excellent move, given what he found to work with in product.
Yes scrape the bull name. And one could say, put some lip stick on the pig and see if she looks better. That is the only thing to do. A little chrome, a new bumper, then call it the Χοίρος . Loren
I read somewhere from Februrary to April 2007 like 45% of their sales are too rental fleets. My question is GM is going to pare down rental fleet sales dramitically for the Pontiac once the G8 comes out and an new generation G6 comes out(for 2009 maybe?) because 45% of a car brands sales going to rental fleets is just way too much and not healthy for any car brand.
"But the Mazda3 and Golf have a standard to point to which exceeds Cobalt, other than gas mileage. "
Sounds good, but that is a baseless argument. The 3's interior is in the same league as the Cobalt, trust me I speak from first hand experience. Lots of black plastic, most of it being hard. The 3 does have sharper handling responses, but that doesnt appeal to everyone since the ride is rather firm. The Rabbit has a nice interior and a few upscale features (for a price) but thats it. It doesnt excel in engine refinement (the I-5 is very course by all accounts), styling, performance, fuel economy or anything else. it is an average car with an above average interior.
this has been discussed in detail already. The GP is a big time fleet seller. It will go out of production after the 2008 MY. I wouldn't expect to find many G8s at Enterprise.
"I say the sooner they replace it with something Astra-based or something from GMDAT, the better."
It is Astra based, this has been covered already. Not sure why this is hard to understand. The cars are mostly the same underneath the skin. When you continue to talk about how unappealing and uncompetitive the Cobalt is I do wonder if you realize there are (were) three models and three engines. The Cobalt SS/SC that does 0-60 in 6secs and pulls .9gs on the skidpad in indeed a Cobalt. The BASE cobalt is pretty mundane and is made for quiet cruising and a nice ride. The SS has stiffer suspension, 17" rims, 4 wheels discs and 173hp- thats not too boring. The SS/SC took it to another level and gave you a best in class performer.
"Nowhere...it falls short on fuel economy, handling, and comfort. "
comfort is subjective so its not worth mentioning. I would argue that the Cobalt SS model is a more capable handler than almost every car in the this segment. Are you seriously sayind the Cobalt trails "sports compacts" like the Corolla and Elantra in handling? You cant be serious. even the non-Si civic isnt that sporty.
I'm saying it trails sporty compacts like the Mazda3 (and from what I hear, the new Lancer, but admittedly that just came out). Also didn't match well with the Focus, which was specifically designed to be a good handler.
And as for 173 HP in the sporty version...you remember what the vanilla Sentra 2.5S had under the hood before the redesign?
And the Cobalt isn't Astra based, the Astra platform is a heavily modified version of the Cobalt platform, modified enough to be considered a significant redesign (Opel says "upgrade" but what do you expect them to say, when they did the work, hmm? )
m1miata - you will find this hard to believe but I am with nvbanker on this one (he probably finds it hard to believe as well...). I think He had little to work with - a decent car that nobody bought and a high profile name that previous management had mismanaged into the scrap heap. Given the situation I think he did the right thing.
The good news is once all those new Tauri come out you should be able to pick up a nice example of a 500 for almost nothing.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Comments
The LaCrosse, in theory should be the new Olds. middle class car, I guess. Strange days have found Buick however. Stuck between the current times of being seen as an older gentlemen car, and the past when it was upper class, as in the doctors car, it went somehow into a black hole. If GM wanted to take on Camry with this car, they could make the 3.6V6 & 6sp. standard and the top line suspension and sell her for $24K. Shall we say a Break Through car, like the CTS? With old engines, and transmissions and not a lot of advertising aimed at Camry for the LaCrosse, she may be doomed.
Loren
0-60 is also not a big deal to me, so long as it's less than 10 seconds (I can live with 10.1 maybe). Speed and horsepower aren't everything, though you keep coming back to it. That's been American "car culture" for a long time, I realize that, to promote HP above all else. Cobalt has more HP than Civic, Corolla, Mazda3, Ford Focus among others. But out of all of those, the Cobalt has been a comparative loser in sales.
Hopefully though, it'll be gone soon, and we'll see if GMDAT can do better than GM with designing a desirable small car.
The Fusion has areas of superiority, notably having an optional AWD system. This year they're supposed to get the Duratec35 as well. Just from photos, the Aura's interior looks a bit nicer, however.
Loren
Loren
As FWD cars go, perhaps a Saab would be one of the fun ones. Keep an eye on reliability data, as going back in time a few years, it wasn't so pretty. Overall look is neat, if not a bit less Saab than one expects to see. Ah, the good ol' days of odd cars. Egg Saabs, and loaf a bread Volvos. Those were the days my friend.
Loren
Loren
Any ideas where GM thinks the hydrogen fuel is going to come from?
Perhaps it is because other cars excel in something:
Civic and Corolla lead in mileage for non-hybrids. They also lead in reliability.
Mazda 3 leads in economy car handling.
Jetta leads in small car interior quality.
So when you say the Corolla has great mileage, it's because handling is not this car's strength.
When people talk about the Mazda 3 and handling, they don't talk about mileage, because that is not this car's leadership quality.
Where does Cobalt lead? People can't compare it to other cars and talk about how the Cobalt is great at anything, even though it's at least decent in most areas. Cobalt's claim to fame is that it is an American Nameplate.
If I want a small car and great mileage, I'll get a Corolla if I am after reliability and mileage. If I want handling I'll buy a Mazda 3. Most non-renters won't buy the Cobalt, because they're going to go after the qualities they want and buy the best of breed for those qualities.
I'm sure that instead of saying I have a good point you'll come back with a snappy argument, that is your style.
Loren, you can some how always make me laugh :P
As FWD cars go, perhaps a Saab would be one of the fun ones.
How bout XWD for a AWD system ?
Just another day in the office in this RED 2008 XWD Saab 9-3 pushed to the limit's by a performance driver. WOW !!! I want one !!! :shades:
Keep an eye on reliability data, as going back in time a few years, it wasn't so pretty.
That is true but I'd be willing to gamble with those risks to own one of the safest if not the safest car you can drive. I imagine most of the bugs have been worked out of this refreshened 08' Saab 9-3 by now.
Overall look is neat, if not a bit less Saab than one expects to see.
I actually see more "Saab" in the new 08' than in recent years. It has that styling cue from the past the
"clam shell" grill.
Ah, the good ol' days of odd cars.
Well we have enough "odd" cars running around on our streets today. Some of them are so odd and ugly I feel embarrassed for the driver. Loren, needs to get himself a Dodge Sprinter or xB !!!! :P
Egg Saabs, and loaf a bread Volvos. Those were the days my friend.
Yeah, y'all didn't have much taste back then !!!! Yuk !!!! :P
-Rocky
Given that the updated 9-3 will be getting an AWD setup, one could guess that the Black Turbo project is a boosted engine setup that would be available due to the power being distributed via all four wheels.
One Swedish contact via email offered the following:
[a guy he knows from GM powertrain]......has been in Death Valley driving a 300 hp engine for an GM project, but not knowing for which product I could guess that it might be for the 9-3 with XWD.
Obviously this is quite speculative.
If you've got any info on the Black Turbo project then feel free to clue us in via comments. Or, if you prefer the more anonymous approach, contact me directly via email.
http://www.trollhattansaab.net/archives/2007/01/what_is_the_bla.html
What I'd like to happen ?????
I'd like to see Edmunds and it's staff or in the know member's dig further in to this story. I please want every stone turned until some body at GM or Saab, start's talking. We need to get uncle Bob, (Lutz) or somebody to confirm or deny this. Is the Black Turbo project, a return of the high performance Viggen ????? Is the "black turbo" XWD just the 4 door sedan 9-3 or is it available in the Convertible ? When would this "Black Turbo" feature be available ?
Somebody please be a whistle blower and answer these questions cuz I wanna know and other's I imagine wouldn't mind knowing something and not have to wait forever ?
62vettefp, you got to know something, right ? :surprise:
The 280 hp V-6 turbo, I don't think is the "Black Turbo" is it even though it has 30 more hp. ? The statement above says 300 hp. I've read on other sites say 290-320 hp.
I guess at some point I will find out the answer's to my question's but boy it would sure be exciting to get some inside info to get my autobahn like juices flowing again.
-Rocky
All 2007 Saab models* are covered for three years or 36,000 miles, whichever comes first. No matter which Saab you choose, the No-Charge Scheduled Maintenance program requires you have your Saab serviced at an authorized Saab dealer in the United States.
The GM 5-Year/100,000-Mile Powertrain Limited Warranty†
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Additional Saab warranty and support
All new 2007 Saab models are also covered by the following:
Bumper-to-Bumper New Car Warranty for four years/50,000 miles
Seat belt and supplemental restraint system coverage for five years, unlimited mileage.
Anti-corrosion warranty for six years, unlimited mileage (9-5 Sedan, 9-5 SportCombi, and 9-7X SUV).
Anti-corrosion for 10 years, unlimited mileage (9-3 Sport Sedan, 9-3 SportCombi, and 9-3 Convertible).
http://www.saabusa.com/saabjsp/owners/index.jsp
-Rocky
Yeah, y'all didn't have much taste back then !!!! Yuk !!!!
Didn't Saab also have 3 cylinder 2-cycle engines that spouted blue smoke and sounded like a pop corn machine? Anyone long for those days?
And you should have seen the airplanes those came out of... grin.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
GM would be wise to tone down the HP escalation. There is no logical/practical need for cars with 500-600 HP or more.
There was an article in Friday's WSJ about various crashes of exotic cars by their owners because of too much HP. Article said that more exotic mfrs are offering driving schools to buyers of their vehicles.
What with the litigation in US over various issues involving consumer safety and mfr responsibility, it might be wise for GM to not pursue/offer cars with mega HP. How long before someone with a high HP GM car, whose owner causes an accident due to negligence that resulted in injury/death to others, that lawyers sue GM for putting a dangerous product on public roads.
Well it's hard to go from being driven in a limo most of your life to driving a mega horsepower car. Performance Driving is a perishable skill and I'd be willing to bet a few of these owner's had a couple of cocktail's in them which contributed to their crash.
What with the litigation in US over various issues involving consumer safety and mfr responsibility, it might be wise for GM to not pursue/offer cars with mega HP. How long before someone with a high HP GM car, whose owner causes an accident due to negligence that resulted in injury/death to others, that lawyers sue GM for putting a dangerous product on public roads.
That statement sounds like one from the Anti-Gun lobby. No one wants to take personal responsibility and it's easier to blame the manufactor or the product it's self. :mad:
What I'm saying xrunner2, not everyone wants to drive a camry. Is the CTS-V, overkill ? Ya betchya, but that is what sells and nobody has yet had a problem with the German's mega power offerings.
-Rocky
They are going to offer a Bio-Power engine as I'm sure you are well aware of but I'm sure you only want diesel.
I myself am worried about getting enough power and good enough fuel economy. 300-350 horsepower range from the factory would be the perfect "black turbo" car. :shades:
Yeah gagrice, the new 9-3's are indeed awesome. I've gotten a little free time to post but I'm leaving in a few so I'll talk at y'all later.
-Rocky
CR, come on. They would be on the bottom of my list for auto reference. Remember this is a company who gets their dot to dot surveys only from those who subscribe to the rag. Why did they respond or not respond. What are their demographics. There is so many flaws with their owner evaluations. I will say it again, this company is getting more and more untrustworthy especially with the child safety seat debockle in which they out sourced the test and that company claimed only 2 of 11, or whatever the number, were acceptable.
Well, if they ever charge citizens of the US a fee / tax based on engine displacement, Saab may be selling even more in USA. HP via turbo on a 2.0 engine = good performance per taxed dollar. I like the looks, inside and out. Not sure about reliability of the latest models. Performance seems to be good. Looks like a good bet for use in the snow belt. The NewMalibu looks like a less expensive alternative with the 3.6 V6 engine.
Loren
The SS is being discontinued, but the 173hp engine lives on. Only the 205hp engine is being cancelled as well as the SS/SC coupe model. I have yet to see the Cobalt SS compared with the 3 but my guess is it could hold its own. I dont see how great handling is supposed to give the 3 a pass on fuel economy. The bottom line is that it's economy trails the civic/corolla just like the Cobalt and people act like they dont notice.
Incorrect again. The Cobalt outsells the 3 by a large margin and its sales are pretty close to the Focus. I'm pretty sure it outsold the Focus last year. I never said 0-60 times are all that counts, but I did say I would take the cobalt's 148hp if its real world mileage is only slightly worse than the much slower civic. Based on that MT test I think there is real possibility that the Cobalt can average within 3mpg of a civic.
Never heard about this 3.5L engine. When the MKZ came out Ford specifically said the Fusion/Milan were not getting this engine. AWD is the ONLY area where the Fusion has a clear advantage.
Look either you think mileage is the most important factor in this class or you dont. When the 3 wasnt in the discussion the Cobalt was called an also ran due to its economy. Now the story has changed to "less than stellar economy is OK as long as its a Mazda". Ever heard of double standards? Bottom line is that if saving fuel is your only concern the Civic and Corolla are the best choices. If you are looking for other factors the field is more wide open. At this point the Cobalt is probably the 2nd oldest small car out there and its not even a bad car. Neither is the Elantra or Lancer or golf. SPeaking of Golf, there is ANOTHER small car with relatively poor mileage that seems to get a free pass because its an import. 23/30mpg is totally unacceptable for this class of car.
Nowthis would be something of beauty.
Loren
Loren
Well, I never did. Fact is, the Mazda3 doesn't get the hottest gas mileage, true. But it's handling is so incredibly good that some people are willing to make that tradeoff. Those that aren't usually buy Civics. I ask again, in what area does the Cobalt lead? Nowhere...it falls short on fuel economy, handling, and comfort. The only place it used to lead was pure HP as compared only to front-drive models. The Impreza comes close with 170 HP, the Caliber as well, plus you get AWD, so Cobalt is one-upped unless someone is looking specifically for front-drive ONLY. And for a significant percent of Cobalt's life, the Sentra had it beat on HP too (2.5, plus the SE-R over the SS).
Golf? What's a golf besides a rotten sport? :P I don't know anything about golf, but I know the Rabbit holds an advantage in interior appointments ("Luxury" if you will, though barely so), which is it's selling point. Kind of a cheezy one if you ask me, but VW still manages to sell them, so I guess it appeals to someone. I know the Cobalt does too, but I still can't figure out what the appeal of it is.
So tell me, WHAT exactly is the selling point for the Cobalt? In what area does it beat the competition in the arena of small cars? GM themselves have said there's no money in these things for them (too hard to make a profit), that's what makes me think they almost don't bother.
I say the sooner they replace it with something Astra-based or something from GMDAT, the better. Especially with rising gas prices, smaller cars are just going to get more and more popular.
Translation: Mulally has been shaking things up at Ford and making some good moves IMO. Renaming the 500 for one, putting the new motor in it, another. Bringing some new Lincolns to market, you can see that someone is making some changes. Will they pay off, and in time, remains to be seen, but he's a mover, a shaker, and a winner. I'm betting Ford survives and becomes the best company it has been since 1986 - when they re-invented the family sedan and changed the automotive world. But I'll bet Ford is a very different company then.
GM has pulled off something I did not think would work. They managed to go from nearly dead, to nicely recovering overnight by bringing out their new truck line, even in a bad gas market. I think personally, they are within striking distance of taking over the F-150s dominance. We shall see. IMO, yes, it's working - the country likes GM. We all want GM to win, to survive, to make it. Moreso than Ford or Chrysler, and I don't know why, but we seem to. We give GM hope.
It might be a national security issue but the Bush administration sure hasn't invested the capital neccessary to rid ourselves off of foreign oil. GM, is in the business of building automobile's and building a likable image. If horsepower didn't help sell vehicle's then their would be no market for such vehicle's. The automobile manufactor's are not going to spend billion's and get burned and foreign oil stick's around as the main source of fuel for many years to come. As I look at the sitiuation now all I see is lip service from our government and thus so do the automobile company's.
-Rocky
Lincoln looks like it is toast.
Loren
Loren, send your emails to old account (valor). I changed the password. The Viking, one I'm no longer using pal. Sorry for the confusion and no I don't think I got your last email.
Well, if they ever charge citizens of the US a fee / tax based on engine displacement, Saab may be selling even more in USA. HP via turbo on a 2.0 engine = good performance per taxed dollar. I like the looks, inside and out. Not sure about reliability of the latest models. Performance seems to be good. Looks like a good bet for use in the snow belt. The NewMalibu looks like a less expensive alternative with the 3.6 V6 engine.
I hope they don't charge a tax like that.
The new 08' 9-3 looks to me as a big winner. I justneedto find out more info on this Black Turbo, as I readonanother site saying it could be 320+ hp. :surprise: That's my kind of Saab.
-Rocky
Wow, do you know why ????? What is the cleaning agent in bio-diesel ?????
I saw on one website a big wig talking about E85 and E100 Ethanol programs for the Saab Bio-Power engine series.
-Rocky
A Saab set up to run on E85 would be high performance. It would probably get about 25% less MPG than unleaded gas. The E100 vehicles will not run on unleaded last I read. So that would present a problem finding fuel in most of the US.
I am still not convinced on GMs two mode hybrid. I am waiting to see how it pans out. If you always lease and never own, cost of repair is not an issue.
The horsepower race has been a straw tiger issue. The sporty folks are easily swayed by a higher horsepower number from an advertisement but never check to see if the torque output used at normal driving speeds and lower speeds such as starting from a stopsign have been lowered in the process.
The magazines also perpetuate the image that a higher horsepower motor is better, because, well, it makes you see like a more powerful man (or woman) as you drive your 325 horsepower car at 45 mph down a boulevard. They're not consistent are they. Oxymorons.
Buyers are stupid as Barnum Bailey or someone said about suckers are born every minute. Save the flame emails--I am a buyer so I fit taht category. I also am a constituent.
Most constituents also are not smart. We let our politicians say one thing to get elected, say a different thing in office, and then actually do a third thing in their actual voting/lobbying/negotiating. Foreign oil benefits big business. Need I say more? Whether yu're Bush, Clinton, Bush, Reagan, Carter..., big business now has the lobby power in DC. The impact on GM and Ford in this will be that there will be a push to smaller cars and tinier motors as a savior for use of big oil and saving our country. On the ohter hand there will be no limit on trucks and the V8s that the wealthy people and government folks drive.
The fuel rules will deal only in averages and not in limits on maximums within the groups. So Honda and Toyota with their lower costs, so far, producing their imports and US production, will already have more high average economy vehicles. Their trucks products won't be pinched either. That would by lobby heaven suicide in DC and State capitols.
The consumer will be paying more for littler fuel sippers that aren't as safe. GM and Ford will have to produce tiny motors and tiny cars to move their averages. Buyers will lose.
The politicians and important people will continue in their large V8 SUVs as always and in their large vehicles as always.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
There were 3 major hp races since WWII: 1949 to 1957, 1964 to 1971, and from about the late 80s to the present.
A recession and growing interest in small cars (think VW Bug and Chevy Corvair) ended the first one, plus Detroit was pressured into dropping its very public sponsorship of stock car racing (although "under the table" support continued afterward).
The second hp race was ended by lower compression ratios, unleaded gas, and "Rube Goldberg" emissions controls. The dual oil shocks of the 70s and hefty insurance surcharges on muscle cars did their bit as well.
The current race could be done in by recession, higher mpg rules, sky-high gas prices, or a bigger blowup in the Mideast (Iran?).
But if you were ARM, Loren, what would you do? Scrap the Taurus brand, and keep trying to sell that ugly 500? May as well scrap that too, but they need a larger car. I thought it was an excellent move, given what he found to work with in product.
Loren
Sounds good, but that is a baseless argument. The 3's interior is in the same league as the Cobalt, trust me I speak from first hand experience. Lots of black plastic, most of it being hard. The 3 does have sharper handling responses, but that doesnt appeal to everyone since the ride is rather firm. The Rabbit has a nice interior and a few upscale features (for a price) but thats it. It doesnt excel in engine refinement (the I-5 is very course by all accounts), styling, performance, fuel economy or anything else. it is an average car with an above average interior.
It is Astra based, this has been covered already. Not sure why this is hard to understand. The cars are mostly the same underneath the skin. When you continue to talk about how unappealing and uncompetitive the Cobalt is I do wonder if you realize there are (were) three models and three engines. The Cobalt SS/SC that does 0-60 in 6secs and pulls .9gs on the skidpad in indeed a Cobalt. The BASE cobalt is pretty mundane and is made for quiet cruising and a nice ride. The SS has stiffer suspension, 17" rims, 4 wheels discs and 173hp- thats not too boring. The SS/SC took it to another level and gave you a best in class performer.
"Nowhere...it falls short on fuel economy, handling, and comfort. "
comfort is subjective so its not worth mentioning. I would argue that the Cobalt SS model is a more capable handler than almost every car in the this segment. Are you seriously sayind the Cobalt trails "sports compacts" like the Corolla and Elantra in handling? You cant be serious. even the non-Si civic isnt that sporty.
And as for 173 HP in the sporty version...you remember what the vanilla Sentra 2.5S had under the hood before the redesign?
And the Cobalt isn't Astra based, the Astra platform is a heavily modified version of the Cobalt platform, modified enough to be considered a significant redesign (Opel says "upgrade" but what do you expect them to say, when they did the work, hmm?
The good news is once all those new Tauri come out you should be able to pick up a nice example of a 500 for almost nothing.