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Everybody says GM's fall was during the 80's but GM had some good sales years 1984-1986 not to huge mention sales growth from 1982 to 1985.
Toyota basically remained flat sales wise from from 1990-1995. 1996(which I suspected previously) is when Toyota started their huge sales growth period in the US that still continues to this day.
BTW, Nissan gave Toyota all they could handle sales numbers wise in 1985 looking at it Toyota sold 868K units compared to nissan's 830K. Nissan wouldn;t topple their 1985 US sales numbers until 2004 when they sold 986K units.
GM could take the lead in manufacturing and marketing sensible sized and powered cars and suvs. They could pronounce that they are doing their part to help US cut down on use and need for foreign oil by biasing future production of vehicles toward smaller, more efficient designs that need less fuel. They could also claim that they are doing their part as a responsible US company to help cut down on highway crashes (not accidents) by not putting high-powered or fast vehicles into the hands of immature drivers (which could be earth aged 16-80).
Except for police cars they supply, they could even plan to build all of their vehicles say 5-10 years out that do not exceed 80 MPH and are totally tamper proof from those wanting to increase HP and or speed potential of vehicle. Can anybody justify the need or reason to go faster than 80 MPH? Can anybody justify having a car (3000-4000 lbs as example) with 300, 400, 500, 600 HP? Analogy of needing a 600 HP car is same as a whacko gun owner/collector claiming he needs a maching gun/gattling gun rather than a handgun only to protect his house and family from intruders.
Now this would truly take great leadership. Does GM high management have the ability to take these steps? I believe that the vast majority of responsible driving Americans would agree with GM for making a commitment to sensible sized and powered vehicles. Other mfrs, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota would then do likewise.
Just trying to be helpful :shades: Loren
Loren
While not exciting the, car of many names, is actually one heck of a practical and safe family car. Where else does one get the goodness of a Volvo at such a reduced rate.
Loren
Yeah I did think at the time GM;s and Ford;s sales numbers(or at least market share) were alot worse in 1999-2000 than they were on those sales charts due to their bad reputation for quality/reliability at the time. At the time Camry and Accord were pretty dominant sales wise in the late 90's but Americans still liked their big Domestic 2.5 branded SUV's at that particular time so the Domestics were able to hold serve on their market share due to rising sales of SUVs for awhile anyway.
And I would say you are wrong. perhaps a vocal majority but I sure would not bet any money on any company that limited their vehicles speed to 80 mph. The average speed on highways is at least 75 and that means everyone is voting with their foot.
Same place all the other OEM's think it is going to come from.
The focus is underpowered and has one of the worst interiors in this segment. It was upgraded for the 2005 model year but its still lacking. Handling is about the only think the Focus could count as an attribute. It falls short on power, features and fuel economy.
regardless of what the Sentra Spev V offered, 173hp is a lot for this class and is more than most cars offer.
As for the cobalt being "old" when it was introduced- I think you should read some reviews of the car when it was new before commenting further. The Cobalt was generally considered a very refined small car and a huge leap over any previous American small car. When you consider the cars that were out in 2004 you will see the Cobalt was not outdated at all. The cobalt offered options like leather, heated seats, 16" wheels, Pionner sound system, steering wheel radio controls and other things that werent (and still arent in many cases) offered on the Corolla and Civic at the time. Since then its gotten a 173hp engine, 17" wheels, remote start, MP3 jack, 6 CD changer, etc. Dont see how that describes a car thats in a lower class than its import competition.
Just trying to be helpful!
You sure do love imports a lot for someone who frequents a GM themed forum. Since you have so little positive to say about anything GM offers I dont see what you get out of being here.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Loren
Yes, it's fact.
Yes. it's fact.
Yes, imports and domestics.
Plenty. :shades: Enjoy this one more than others in the past, actually. And thanks for your concern.
Loren
The HHR front could also be used on the RWD Colorado truck.
Just trying to be imaginative,
:shades: Loren
perhaps but everrone is going for a deep sleep.
Hydrogen, while still controversial as a means for solving the nation's
energy crisis, is seen by many as the auto industry's best long-term
opportunity to replace petroleum as a chief means of powering vehicles.
Virtually all of the world's major automakers are racing to build fuel cell
vehicles.
A billion-plus investment in fuel cell DaimlerChrysler AG touts its $1
technology and the fact that it has more hydrogen vehicles on the road than
any other automaker.
Honda Motor Co. last month unveiled its next-generation hydrogen fuel cell
vehicle, the Honda FCX, saying it would begin producing a small number next
year for use in Japan and the United States.
In the near term hydrogen is a dream only. But in 5-10 years it will not be unless something better comes along.
Loren
The El Camino was sure popular in it's day and is a collector car today. Will they bring that one back? Another possible lighter duty hauler. I guess now-a-days everyone has to pretend to be more macho with the bigger trucks. If the El Camino does come back, the first question of the muscles crowd will be, where's the big V8. Hey, we've got that, GM would say. Then there is the DoD engines. Don't know how well they work in real life, but the numbers do look better to meet the government numbers for fuel economy, which is going to be harder to meet in the future. Now the HHR, and the imagined Truck version would get great gas mileage.
Just a thought, Loren
In January, according to Edmunds data, information about the Aura gathered 23,922 unique visitors on the Edmunds site. The Ford Fusion attracted 31,050 unique visitors.
And the Toyota Camry: 87,373 unique visitors. Instead of parking a Camry at the Saturn stores, they could just park a cage with an 800-pound gorilla inside, and a "Camry" sign on the bars.
The risk that visitors to the Saturn store who drive both cars will like the Camry better is real. But it's not greater than the risk that the Aura will just vanish in the swarm of cars chasing the Camry. So GM has little to lose by bopping the gorilla on the nose.
Edmunds data indicates that the Aura has gained traction since January, as GM has kept trying new ways to position the car as an equal of the best sellers. In May, Aura "consideration" traffic rose to 48,064 unique visitors ? down somewhat from March but still twice as good as January. The Fusion, however, had slipped to 23,479 unique visitors. The Camry? Still the gorilla at 81,430 visits.
Fast forward to May. The Acadia got looks from 60,446 Edmunds visitors, and was No. 1 in this four wagon race. The MDX was No. 2 at 35,704, the RX fell to 24,766 lookers and the Veracruz was pitching in with 19,022 lookers. Purchase intentions followed a similar track, with the Acadia No. 1 in May with 14,393 visitors exhibiting behavior consistent with buying an Acadia within four to six weeks.
Easy to load/unload parcels in tight city parking.
Seems like we end up with hybrids and all electrics. Oh, I will miss the sounds of a real engine though, if the day should come when I can't fill up the V6 gas engine. Electric motors --- blahhhhh. But alas, everyone adapts.
Loren
The Acadia seems popular all right and looks good, as SUVs go. I take it GM is doing better than Ford and Chrysler in this market. Are people still buying Explorers like the old days, or are they on the way out, as in history? I see some new ones. Truck and SUV sales mean the world to the big two, or is it big three again. Welcome back Chrysler.
Loren
Take look at this link Kinda interesting. Lower the door window sills to the point of the roll toward the driver, and have it swoop in the center, and she would be something. As is, pretty interesting. Those chin high doors though???
But yeah, the 1965 Wildcat was something as was Rivs.
Loren
Seems with the contractors really hurting with the housing slump the OEM's will be fighting it out to get a bigger percentage of the smaller pie.
http://www.autoobserver.com/2007/06/new_incentives_.html
Minivans seem to be also losing sales, perhaps as the cooler CUV's are taking the sales.
actually if you knew anything about the Fusion you would know it has received several upgrades since it was introduced. I suspect there will be more changes for 2008.
How many of the same for the Aura? thousands?
Who goes to the Camry site, just prospective new buyers or a mix of that plus their following?
Based on my answers to these questions, 48000 to 81000 is not bad when you consider that the Aura would need to be considered as much better than the Camry to turn perception part way back to reality and get half as many sales as Camry.
Loren
Wrong again. I dont think AWD and DVD navigation are standard equipment on other automobiles. as usual your strong dislike of anything FOrd/GM is causing you to make inaccurate statements. You made a claim that cant be backed up and now you are blatantly ignoring the facts. You said the Fusion will stay on the market without upgrades like all Ford products and become an also ran. SInce its introduction the Fusion has added numerous features such as nav, AWD and MP3 jack. This fall the Fusion and other Ford products are getting this new Sync system that allows you to control your MP3 player with the car's controls and gives you bluetooth integration. Maybe Ford will offer stabiity control as well.
Because of other factors. I never said handling is everything.
1487: That said, how can you possibly say that the reason 95% of domestic cars get panned by CR is their soft ride quality?
I never said that, so there is no reason for me to explain it.
1487: LOL! I love it, any publication that hates the cars you hate are "telling like it is" but everyone is giving GM models a free pass. Anyone who thinks the US automotive press is biased in GM's favor has no credibility in my book.
Read the magazine. Top Gear pans SOME GM cars, but likes the Corvette and the Vauxhall/Opel Astra.
The magazine does rate most of the European Fords highly (which means your repeated contention that I only quote from sources that hate every product from one of the Detroit-based companies just went out the window - again).
Second, I have not said that the American press is biased in GM's favor. If I believed this, why would I repeatedly quote opinions and test results from Car & Driver and Automobile?
Granted, I have to quote them to repeatedly correct you when you misquote them, but I also quote their test results on their own.
1487: Why not just accept the truth? The truth is the epsilon cars are very solid and have above average handling. The cars are much more European in ride and handling that Toyotas or Hyundais.
Doesn't necessarily make them better than the competition, although I personally would take an Aura over a Camry. But I would not buy a current Malibu (maybe the upcoming one) or G6 over a Camry.
1487: Are you a closet Ford fan or something? Saying the Aura is a good car doesnt take anythign away from the Fusion, but objectively speaking there is no way the Fusion is a superior car.
In your opinion. Ford tends to have better chassis tuning, ergonomics and assembly quality. The top-of-the-line Aura (with the 3.6 V-6) does have a better drivetrain, but it is not available with AWD.
And I thought I was clear in my like for Fords, but, to make everyone happy, I'll "come out of the closet" and say it: I like most Fords. And we have a 2005 Focus (I've mentioned this before), and I love the way it drives, and I like it better than a Cobalt. And I love the styling of the Fusion, and I'm looking forward to the upcoming Flex (great-looking vehicle - dumb name) and I would take an F-150 over a Silverado.
Now that I'm out of the closet, I wonder if Andre1969 and lemko will want to be seen at car shows with me...
1487: They love Toyotas but slam any soft riding domestic car
Maybe because the Toyota has other qualities that make up for the ride and handling, and the domestic cars don't.
1487: d)they give similar models totally different ratings- the Tahoe gets a poor score but the Avalanche gets a nearly class leading score.
I would hope so, considering that they are DIFFERENT vehicles aimed at different sets of customers with different expectations.
That's like saying it's unfair that Honda Accord and Acura TSX receive different ratings, as they are based on the same basic platform.
1487: e)CR is for consumers but doesnt take price into account when rating cars, this is absolutely stupid and they are the only magazine that doesnt consider price in a comparo.
They understand that consumers will bargain for the best price, (which is why they offer tips on how to deal with car dealers to get the best deal), and thus do not put much stock in sticker prices.
Which is a good thing, up to a point, as they realize that with rebates, incentives and old-fashioned wheeling-and-dealing very few people pay sticker price for most vehicles.
Plus, they aren't comparing an Aura to a Mercedes E-Class, and then damning the Aura for not performing as well. The magazine compares vehicles in the same price and size RANGE, and that is enough for most customer. If people like Car A, and it is $500 more than Car B, most people I know will pay the different to get what they want and buy Car A.
Oil? Saving it for specific lubrication of machinery if we haven't moved to synthetic materials.
Bio-diesel? Maybe - it is infinitely renewable in theory, but that's a BIG maybe as the world population is expected to reach a maximum stable number of 12-15 billion people. Feeding them all will make it necessary to use all of our land for food production. Meat will be a precious commodity as well, since land and grain will be used for other uses except for feeding livestock.
Natural Gas? This looks somewhat promising as well, considering that we have lots of it and it can be made from many sources. Land impact is minimal, so expect this to be a viable alternative for heavy transportation needs.
Electric? At first this looks ideal, but the useage of billions of batteries every decade, worldwide is not really feasible. Not unless we figure out something other than electro-chemical storage. But this is certainly doable.
Hydrogen or fuel cells? This looks like a good candidate as well, except that the materials cost and pollution created by the manufacturing process it also looks troubled. Plus, it's really expensive and recycling isn't nearly as viable and straightforward as batteries.
Compressed air? Interesting as all it takes is a air compressor and well, nothing much else.
I see:
- Oil - gone in 50 years. Some Bio-diesel here and there as well as ethanol. Eventually replaced with CNG.
- Fuel Cells - phased in in the next decade or two, then phased out 100 years from now. Economics are a major reason as well as pollution from manufacturing them in quantity.
- CNG is phased out 200 years from now, mostly due to advances in other technologies.
- Electricity and compressed air/steam/etc - years 100+ except for heavy transport, which will likely still use CNG or ethanol.
So while fuel cells are a step in the right direction, the obvious choice is to go to electric(depending on the battery technology that is used of course) or something like compressed air or similar, or even CNG.
P.S. Oddly enough, 500 years from now, some of our technology may very well resemble "Steampunk" type designs due to the way we wasted resources early on. :P
Loren
Got any proof of that or anything else you stated? Thats the great thing about the internet, everyone is an instand expert with or without any facts to back them up.
"The magazine compares vehicles in the same price and size RANGE, and that is enough for most customer."
Please read CR before commenting further, its obvious you dont. They often compare cars that are separated by $5k-$10K or more. Their groupings do not really consider price to be an important factor. CR's logic is that any cars that have the same mission in life should be compared and thus they will compare a Miata to a Boxter or Vette since they are all convertibles. Never mind the $30k price differences. Than they will rank those cars in that category with no weight given to price. Its beyond idiotic and no other magazine does this.
"Maybe because the Toyota has other qualities that make up for the ride and handling, and the domestic cars don't. "
Maybe not. Sounds nice though, you are a master of excuses and I give you credit for that. You put CR on a mighty high pedastal. I'm curious as to why you swear they are the primary source we should trust when it comes to cars.
I believe that is what you said. To me that means that the options Ford added were standard on its import competitors. That is completely false but you can continue to argue otherwise. DVD navigation is a system that allows you to get directions and track your progress in real time via and in dash screen. Many of your beloved imports offer this feature so you should have seen it before. Ford added this last year which is odd since you said the Fusion will whither and die without updates like all Ford products. The Fusion lacks stability which it should have, but side airbags and traction contol are offered. In fact, 6 airbags were made standard for 2007 model year. I'm not sure what options you feel are standard on other cars that arent standard or even optional on the Fusion besides stability. Last time I checked the camry doesnt have traction control. I believe the Accord may have it if you get stability control.
BTW, the Milan and MKZ are not the same car. One is a Mercury and the other is a Lincoln. Only the MKZ had a different name at launch, and it wasnt Milan. You seem to be a little confused.
I know the Milan is a Mercury, and is possibly the best looking of the bunch. The MKZ alphabet soup, Lincoln is a Milan, is a Fusion, or a stretched Mazda6 by any other name. Add some trim, larger engine, and the Lincoln name and you have arrived. Real Lincolns are no more. The Town Car is no longer what she use to be. Face the music.
Now back to GM, or General Mayhem.
Loren
It is amazing how long Lincoln and Mercury have just hung around. Mercury more so. Except for some old 50's Mercury custom cars seen at car shows, don't know of any significant Mercuries.
I guess that Mercury has lasted over the last couple of decades by selling full size rwd cars to police and old people. Notice that Mercury tv ads over last few months have been directed at young women. Remember one were a young professional woman is driving a Mercury with her male office colleague as passenger to a meeting and them commenting how much better it is than her boss's car.
Buick probably will survive with new Enclave and Lucerne, but don't know about the mediocre Lacrosse. Maybe Buick should focus ads on young professional women and forget about sponsoring golf. They need to shed their old people image and appeal to young generation of late 20's to 40's.
I marvel at the golf connection in demographics for marketing. I was polled at Lowes a few years ago and golf played heavily in the questions. I suspect they were considering sponsoring golf. I notice they went to NASCAR instead? Has anyone heard of the Lowes Golf Tournament?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
1949-51 "James Dean" Mercury.
1957 Mercury Turnpike Cruiser
1964-65 Mercury Comet Caliente
1967-70 Mercury Cougar
1968 Mercury Park Lane
1969-70 Mercury Marauder
1968-69 Mercury Cyclone
Mediocre? My girlfriend's very happy with her 2005 LaCrosse which has yet to give her any trouble.
Maybe Buick should focus ads on young professional women
Well, she did choose it over other cars. She thought the LaCrosse looked more like a woman's car and the Chrysler 300 as a man's car.
laCrosse is far from mediocre. Better quality than Camry/Accord both in 3 month and 3 year JD Power. Handles and rides better than a Camry. Has an interior that almost rivals the ES in fit and finish and material quality. Exterior also has great fit and finish.
So why does it not sell in Camry / Accord volumes?
I will not place in order because that would show my opinion but:
It's a Buick (perceived for old people)
Styling is too conservative/old (way too much overhang in front for one thing)
Priced higher than Camry / Accord and therefore not in high volume bracket (starts about $5000 above base Accord/Camry)
Does not have the high volume (Camry/Accord) 4 cylinder available.
Little or no price incentives
No advertising
Seems to me like if there was a long-term plan for Buick, then LaCrosse would have been launched as the "tweener" model between the Buicks of old (like the terrible Century and even-worse Skylark) and the "new upscale Buick" that is about to emerge, in which LaCrosse will go up significantly in price and fitments. And powertrains.
The new 3.6 that is now the STS's new base engine should also be LaCrosse's base engine, with a new base price around $29K and Lucerne moving up above it as well. Then, of course, GM will finally have to turn its DTS into a "take the world and the S-class by storm" luxury cruiser (preferably RWD) so that Lucerne has room to breathe. The last of the Deville faithful will have to be led to the new Lucerne for their future purchases.
But that of course is only my guess, and while I only know of GM's vision in general terms, it seems like Lucerne is about to go a very different route, and no such plans exist for the DTS either. Seems to me like the LaCrosse should end up exactly to the Impala what the ES is to the Camry.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Loren
Loren