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Comments
The SX4 was VERY impressive at the auto show---I really like the way it is put together. The Versa pi**es me off because ABS isn't included in the cars for sale on the lot (why? who are they kidding?)
I'm hoping the Astra doesn't disappoint.
I want to check out the 2008 Cadillac CTS when it debuts.
Is that what all the footprints were? I thought people were headed for dealers...
As for the fuel economy, I would hold my breath until the EPA numbers show up. I read some reviews from European publications and they didn't seem to complain about the fuel economy.
Do you read anything about the cars we are discussing here? Apparently you do not. Check out the slalom and skidpad stats for the cars I named and compare them to Accord and Camry. It is a total lie that GM's better sedans handle worse than the class leaders. Same can be said for the Fusion.
"Because it is a very good car that has received excellent reliability scores. Imagine that... "
Not sure what you are implying here. Are you saying GM doesnt make any cars as capable as the Fusion? Would you care to explain how the Aura or G6 with the DOHC engine would be less capable than the Fusion? As for reliability, the Aura hasnt been rated by CR and the G6 is recommended. Dont see your point.
"So, not everyone reads Consumer Reports, or they let other factors determine their purchasing decision. "
Never said every buyer looked to CR for advice, if that were the case every vehicle sold would be a Toyota or Honda. CR has an obligation to be fair regardless of who reads their magazine and who does not. Its like you are saying they can say whatever they want since everyone doesnt consider the magazine an authority on cars. A lot of people do and it makes their opinion very influential. They are the #1 source of the general impression that Detroit cannot (even in 2007) produce a competent car. If you honeslty believe there is nothing competitive coming out of Detroit besides the Fusion you are mistaken.
"I agree. Let's blame Honda-loving space aliens taking over the bodies of American car buyers, or evil, secret mind-control radar waves being broadcast from Japan, as the culprits. "
have no clue what you are talking about there.
wow, I'm so glad someone said that. I wish you could get that across to our import leaning friends here. I doubt it though.
I'm here to let people know the truth and the facts. I don't know why people want poor companies to succeed. They only succeed at a great cost to the consumer and a waste of good hard earned money. "
wrong on all counts. The point I am trying to make is that you cant comment intelligently if you dont know whats going on in the industry. Your comments make it very clear that you are not at all up to date with the products and management of GM. The Big 3 are not all the same an that is why GM has turned two consecutive profits and has vehicles coming out that are getting critical acclaim and Ford/chrysler are losing billions. GM has made serious changes in the way it designs and develops vehicles and that work is beginning to show. I dont know how you can comment here when you seem totally unaware of that. Recent GM products such as the Outlook/Acadia, Aura, Vue, tahoe, Silverado, etc. have been getting very positive reviews all around. You seem incapable of acknowledging the changes that have been made in spite of the product based evidence we have on the road today. I didnt even get into the 2008 CTS and Malibu which look to be winners.
Furthermore GM is less reliant on trucks than Ford or Chrysler and they have made the biggest commitment to hybrids out of the big 3. There are major differences in the way these companies are run and their short term outlooks. Chrysler and Ford are a good 1-2 years behind GM in terms of improving their management and design structures.
I could probably live with these faults on the Saturn, truth be told. I've never had a car with folding back seats anyway (although I did take the back seat OUT of my '68 Dart once, so I could haul home the front bumper/grille combo for a '69 Bonneville), and from the Auras I've sat in, while the interior is nothing to rave about, I don't find it offensive. I'd say it's light years ahead of my Dad's '03 Regal, which has a mis-alignment where the dash meets the passenger side door trim, of almost an inch. Maybe it's not "best in class", but I'd call it "good enough".
I guess the trunk lid thing could get annoying, though. Still, I think the base Aura XE looks like a lot of car for the money. Personally, I'd probably be swayed toward the Altima, with its better EPA ratings, 26/34, compared to 20/30 for the Saturn. And it's hard to put my finger on why but I just LIKED the Altima better.
Loren
Dont understand why people get so defensive about CR. Please tell me where it is written that CR cannot be biased. Again, you are saying that CR is 100% correct in their dislike of everything GM makes because GM has made some missteps in the past. That is not an acceptable answer. CR's job is to rate the cars that are on sale NOW, not to judge cars based on GM's past sins or reputation. Certain observations about certain cars are nearly universal and that is fine. My problem with CR is they will totally trash a domestic model that has gotten accolades from other sources. The Aura was proof positive that NO Gm model can get a favorable road test from CR. Not the Aura, not the vetter, not the CTS, not the Impala, nothing. If its from the General it is doomed at CR plain and simple. I keep asking the same question but the CR defenders have yet to answer. How does CR get its test scores? They show you a number but dont tell you where it comes from. It obviosuly doesnt come from the performance stats because cars that perform nearly identically get wildly different ratings. Another thing is they gave the Tahoe a totally crappy rating but rated the avalance as one of the best pickups on the market. Can anyone explain that? They have the Tahoe rated lower than almost every full size SUV on the market when everyone else has praised the vehicle. Makes NO sense whatsoever.
Now that I think about it, C&D did say something along the lines of having 5 people in the Aura made it feel like a sardine can. In all fairness though, I can't remember the last time I've seen a car that could truly hold three people across in its back seat, at least in comfort. Probably not since before they started downsizing them in the late 70's. I've had three people across in the back seat of my Intrepid, but I have never been one of those three, so I dunno how it would feel to me. At the Philly auto show, Lemko, Grbeck, and I tried to all squeeze into the back seat of a Lucerne, and it felt pretty tight to me.
Design? No.
Does it matter????? A lost job is a lost job. It doen't matter if it is a blue collar assembly job or a white collar engineer.
I realize we all live in the now and into the future, but it will be something which people will have in the back of their minds, or will soon be asked here, since question is "GM Is on The Offensive" and the American revolution talk, which was never explained, but perhaps means a Comeback for American products, made by GM. But why now, when at the brink of bankruptcy, do we now finally have the products, or promise of products to come. To sleep a quarter of a century is a very-very long time. But I suppose they are rested now and ready to roll !
Loren
Gee, that's odd. All the mechanics working at our local Toyota dealership aren't starving on flat rate.
Good question. If one of the Big 2 go under, that will be asked for decades to come (I give Chrysler a pass for the time being, only because the Daimler execs were calling the shots). I think GM has made the turn and hopefully that question will be moot.
If I was in your finacial situation and wanted a Caddy, I'd wait and get the 09' CTS-V with 500-600 hp of course.
I however am in love with the new refreshened Saab 9-3 Convertible and Sedan and want a "Black Turbo" 9-3 with 300-320 hp and XWD or otherwise known to the civilized world as a All Wheel Drive System known as (Cross Wheel Drive) and is one of GM's best designs. :shades:
-Rocky
Lucerne, LaCrosse, current Malibu (don't know about the upcoming one), Impala, Grand Prix, for starters.
Honestly, you have not been in these vehicles. The base LaCrosse has less "floatiness" than the Camry and the CXS is even tighter. Now you may say the Camry is a floaty car yet the issue here is that CR did pick it as a recommended buy with the suspension it came with. The other vehicles all have less "floaty" rides than the LaCrosse. Even the Lucerne is a notch less floaty than the LaCrosse and therefore less floaty than the Camry, Avalon and the floatiest of all 3 toyotas the lexus ES.
Why? they are available at GM parts stores and aftermarket outlets same as the other epsilon models.
refreshened 9-3. I also heard a new EP II Saab 9-3 will be out in 2010 or 2011. The new Saab 9-5 will be out when ? The current Saab 9-3 (2007) got a good review I think in Road & Track and with these new styling and interior improvements just maybe it's enough along with more power and AWD to make it a winner.
-Rocky
yes already happened. Raytheon outsourced to an "american" comapany and they outsourced the work to an Indian company.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0GZQ/is_48_40/ai_58160334
IT services provider Computer Sciences Corp. has just landed a multi- year information technology outsourcing contract from Raytheon Co., the nation's third-largest defense contractor. CSC values the deal at $65 million a year for an undisclosed term.
http://informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2006/04/outsourced_prog.html
Not so with the technology and professional services sectors. The rationalization of these industries on global lines is just beginning. Outsourcing has been a hot-button issue for years, but to date only a small percentage of IT and services work has actually gone abroad. But that's changing--fast. Evolving technology is making offshoring progressively easier to manage and less expensive, and managers are becoming increasingly comfortable with the practice as they gain experience with it. As a result, big IT services vendors like EDS, IBM, and CSC are set to double or even triple their Indian head count over the next couple of years.
Manufacturing? Yes.
Design? No.
Wrong.
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_05/b3969417.htm
Today, like other tech companies, Boeing is pursuing design and engineering talent across the globe. In designing its new carbon-fiber-based 787 Dreamliner, Boeing is outsourcing a much higher percentage of the engineering and design work to outside contractors than it has on previous airplane programs.
For the first time, with the 787, Boeing is outsourcing more than 70% of the airframe and is giving all aircraft suppliers the responsibility for doing the detail engineering designs. The Japanese and Italians are designing and building the composite fuselage sections and the wings. The Russians are contributing key engineering talent -- particularly in the area of designing titanium aircraft parts.
"COLLABORATIVE EFFORT." Boeing needed to cut costs to be able to compete with the more efficient Airbus, but Boeing also needed top engineering talent from around the world to help it pull off what will be the design and production of the first plastic commercial jetliner. "We just had to make sure that we absolutely found the most capable and the best of what we needed," Bair says. "We couldn't limit it to Boeing, Washington state, or the U.S."
Loren
Loren
GM has always had trouble competing in the compact and subcompact segments. Same with Ford and Dodge...American companies just seem to be unable to do it. Even with former home-runs like the Focus and Neon, they have to spread out the amortization for so long that the designs are over 10 years old before they finally get replaced.
Loren, I've always been a huge fan of turbo charger's and Saab, deliver's with a fuel efficient turbo V-6 engine that is both powerful and sips the gas. I as you know am also a fan of 4-Wheel Steering which the 9-3 has and now it's going to incorporate another important feature to me and that is a advanced All-Wheel Drive system called XWD or Cross Wheel Drive which is a advanced Halidex version.
The bottom line:
If I can land another good paying job I will buy one of these cars. I'm still undecided over the Sedan or the Convertible, but I'm leaning towards the Convertible. The 9-3 is like a Buick Velite only better in many ways. It's more sporty and fit's my Scandinavian way of thinking. :shades: I can get a General Motor's discount on any Saab, as well so it makes dollars and sense.
I do like the new 08' Malibu's pal, but if I was going to buy one of those then I'd just keep the 04' Impala. I'm at this point forced to drive until my lawyer, takes some legal action against the dealership for allowing my wife to forge my name on the car without my presence or contacting me to make sure it was okay. :mad: I had no knowledge the car was in my name until about 3 or 4 weeks ago as my wife told me it was her car and in her name not mine. :surprise:
Anyways how many miles does your Accord have now ? I had the oil changed on the Impala, and the Hepa air filter was never changed. Neither was the fuel filter. :mad: Grand Allegan, the dealership where my good buddy works at here in Michigan, that was gave me a sales job offer told me he couldn't believe they sold the car without doing basic preventive maintence. I can logically assume the coolant has never been changed either thus when I get back from going to Texas, for divorce court dad, says I need to get that done to prevent the intake manifold from being a problem based off of y'alls reccomendation.
Well when I get more time I will participate in some of these other discussion's I wouldn't mind applying for a sales job selling Saab's as I believe it's going to become a more mainstream brand once GM, pumps even more money into it.
Here's a link on the unveiling of the new 9-3 range in Sweden. http://saab.com/main/GLOBAL/en/93_reveal.shtml
-Rocky
I wouldn't bet my money on that.
I just checked the IIHS crash test ratings for the 9-3. Very impressive! Haven't looked at anything Saab for years. Are they still a bit quirky? I always kinda' liked that about them, a bit of a standout.
Safe driving.
Yes, it looked good from the photos, and sounds good, too.
The In-Laws CUV SX4 is solid as a rock, and not a bad interior, either.
Handling is sharp, ride is decent, and 0-60 feels faster than the 10 seconds it takes to get there(or so, with automatic) .
MPG is 27-28(I dunno if he still leadfoots, or not).
The car/sedan SX4 should get 30-31MPG, at least?
It is supposed to be lighter, due to FWD set up only.
It will be on the list of "test drives" for the Fall.
I'd say yeah, but other's might say they lost a little of that because GM polished some of the rough edges.
-Rocky
-Rocky
After years of intensive research and development, General Motors Corp. says it now is ready to concentrate on finding a way to produce hydrogen fuel cell powered vehicles for the mass market.
GM is expected to announce today that it will reassign more than 500 engineers working on fuel cells and fuel cell vehicle development from the automaker's research operation to its powertrain and global engineering divisions.
Hydrogen, while still controversial as a means for solving the nation's energy crisis, is seen by many as the auto industry's best long-term opportunity to replace petroleum as a chief means of powering vehicles. Virtually all of the world's major automakers are racing to build fuel cell vehicles.
Short answer is I dont really care, I'm just glad they are figuring things out. The other thing that should be mentioned is that it is inaccurate to say there were no decent GM vehicles for 25 years, that is a stretch to say the least. What we can say is that GM wasnt turning out good products consistently until recently. I dont know that the old days were really even that great. Sure GM had plenty of powerful cars, but at that time reliability, fit/finish, ergonomics, etc. were not great but it was OK because the public was into hp and styling more than anything else.
As far as I'm concerned, those two are still Priority One and Two on my car shopping list!!!
Actually, I found the seating position, up front, at least to be one of the Cobalt's strong suits. To me, it had more of a "big car" feel to it, with plenty of room to stretch my legs. I still dunno if I'd buy one, though. If I'm going to buy a little car, it's going to be for fuel economy.
The 2.2 Ecotech seems designed more for performance than fuel economy. In fact, I remember a Consumer Reports test of a Cavalier, from around 2002 or 2003 (whenver they first got the Ecotech). Now even stuffy old Consumer Reports go the Ecotech Cavalier to do 0-60 in 8.4 seconds! It pretty much wasted everything else in that test, which was more around the 10-11 second mark. That included a Saturn Ion, which oddly, also had the Ecotech, but was hampered by a CVT that didn't have the kinks worked out yet, I guess. Plus, the Ion may have been heavier than the Cavalier. They also had a Neon in that test and I think a Hyundai Elantra. I want to say a Mazda Protege and a Honda Civic were in that test, as well.
Slalom and skidpad stats do not give a complete picture of a car's handling capabilities, particularly in the real world. If you think that you can tell how a car handles merely by looking at the statistics, then you have a lot to learn.
Early versions of the C4 Corvette generated excellent handling scoreson the skidpad...and were miserable to drive in the real world.
1487: Not sure what you are implying here. Are you saying GM doesnt make any cars as capable as the Fusion? Would you care to explain how the Aura or G6 with the DOHC engine would be less capable than the Fusion?
Yes. And there is more to a car than the drivetrain. Read Top Gear or any of the other Brit mags - they aren't too impressed with the Epsilon platform. They do like the Mazda6 platform.
The Brits have a tendency to "tell it like it is" - much like Consumer Reports.
1487: As for reliability, the Aura hasnt been rated by CR and the G6 is recommended. Dont see your point.
The Fusion is rated higher than the G6 in reliability, and it earns higher overall scores.
1487: CR has an obligation to be fair regardless of who reads their magazine and who does not. Its like you are saying they can say whatever they want since everyone doesnt consider the magazine an authority on cars.
And so far, you've failed to present any evidence that they aren't, except for the fact that they don't rate your favorite cars highly, or first in class.
"Yes. And there is more to a car than the drivetrain. Read Top Gear or any of the other Brit mags - they aren't too impressed with the Epsilon platform. They do like the Mazda6 platform.
The Brits have a tendency to "tell it like it is" - much like Consumer Reports. "
LOL! I love it, any publication that hates the cars you hate are "telling like it is" but everyone is giving GM models a free pass. Anyone who thinks the US automotive press is biased in GM's favor has no credibility in my book. Why not just accept the truth? The truth is the epsilon cars are very solid and have above average handling. The cars are much more European in ride and handling that Toyotas or Hyundais. Toyota is the new Buick in case you missed it.
"The Fusion is rated higher than the G6 in reliability, and it earns higher overall scores. "
Really? Thanks for the new information. The Fusion is the only domestic sedan with a high rating comparable to Altima, Accord and Passat. It scores better than almost everything else. The Fusion is a nice car, but its got some serious powertrain and interior shortcomings. Are you a closet Ford fan or something? Saying the Aura is a good car doesnt take anythign away from the Fusion, but objectively speaking there is no way the Fusion is a superior car.
"And so far, you've failed to present any evidence that they aren't, except for the fact that they don't rate your favorite cars highly, or first in class. "
I have clearly stated why CR is suspect. a) they dont tell you how they arrive at test scores b) two cars (altima and Aura for example) that get similar ratings on the test summary page get wildly different scores c) they are inconsistent when it comes to bashing cars for poor handling. They love Toyotas but slam any soft riding domestic car d)they give similar models totally different ratings- the Tahoe gets a poor score but the Avalanche gets a nearly class leading score. e)CR is for consumers but doesnt take price into account when rating cars, this is absolutely stupid and they are the only magazine that doesnt consider price in a comparo.
You have any rationalization for this? If so, please share with the class. at least other magazines with scoring systems show you where the numbers come from. R&T has the most fair ratings system out of all the magazines and they make it clear that performance and price are very significant.
Loren
Loren :shades: