General Motors discussions

pmusce

Well they are not asking people that own a Toyota how they like their new Impala? Are you suggesting that people which hate the domestics go out to buy them, buy a subscription to Consumer Reports, then blast GM? People may buy the magazine to see how good toasters, air conditioners, or TVs are. What ever the reason, so what.

Who says you have to actually buy the car to fill out the survey? JD Powers sends their survey to owners who have registered the vehicle. What does CR do to confirm that their responses are valid?

If you do not believe the data, then don't by the magazine.

I would never buy it. I don't need someone to test toasters for me. I can make my own decisions on cars and look at much more reliable data supplied by JD Powers, Polk and others.

pmusce

CR's reliability numbers do have the flaw of being a self-selected sample rather than a random sample.

This is exactly the problem. Since the sample is not random, the results will not be nearly as accurate as a random sample. The fact is, if I got 50 people to buy a subscription to CR and fill out surveys on the Toyota Camry and give it 1 star across the board, I would be able to influence the results of the survey. In a random sample survey (like JD Powers) I cannot do this because it is not my choice to take the survey. As well, the survey group is randomly selected based on people that have actually registered the vehicle.

This is right from the CR website:

6.8. How do you know that manufacturers don't "stuff the ballot box?"
In most other surveys that draw their samples from lists of registered car owners, the researcher can control who is mailed a survey. In the Consumer Reports survey, buying a subscription to either the magazine or to ConsumerReports.org gives you a vote on two cars. Some subscribers have wondered whether a manufacturer could just arrange to have their employees fill out questionnaires saying that their cars are reliable, as a way to influence our Ratings. Hypothetically, this is a potential weakness in our survey.

However, there are a number of ways that we can protect against this potential for fraud. For obvious reasons, we do not want to describe in detail the actions we take in this regard. We are confident that no manufacturer has succeeded

As you can see, even they admit their survey can be tampered with.

62vetteefp

I know they make fairly reliable cars but those weren't very high quality and built with a lot cheap plastic parts.

Golly, they get an award for being the best midsize at 3 weeks Initial quality) of ownership and then at 3 years (reliability). Actually a trend that makes sense yet there is gotta be something wrong. How could a domestic be better than the imports? Gotta be something wrong. Does not make sense. Now way. That is not how it is. I mean I have a friend, I owned a, everybody knows.

Come on. The data shows it has bested the Camry/Accord. Get over it.

I love the cheap plastic parts. Go sit in one. Pretty much every part you can touch on the IP is so soft with about a 1/4" of foam.

62vetteefp

What is the possiblity of moving all the CR/JD Power comments to the proper forum. Getting a bit stuffy here with few comments about the actual question in hand. GM on the offensive? I mean a comment that Buick tied with Lexus is right on the subject. Cadillac bested all luxury marques except Lexus is good data. But continuous arguments about the correctness of CR / JD is gotta go.

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f106481/58

62vetteefp

I think this guy is having a dream. $2000 seems a bit too low. I love the nav screen readout though.

Timing is everything in the car and truck business.

Introduce new products at the right time, and you just might sell a slew of them. And that's what might happen to General Motors.

Against the backdrop of anguish over rising fuel prices and falling SUV sales, GM is introducing two new full-size hybrid SUVs, the Chevy Tahoe and the GMC Yukon.

Both get about 25 percent better fuel economy in combined city-highway driving, and about 40 percent better mileage in city driving. Although figures have not been set by the EPA, GM said the pair could get about 20 mpg in the city, about 22 on the highway, and about 21 overall.

While those figures may not seem like much in the days of hybrids that get 50 mpg, they certainly look good compared with other SUVs.

And remember, we are talking about two really big trucks here. They can haul seven passengers with all their cargo, and tow 6,000 to 6,200 pounds. They also have the traction benefits that come with all-wheel drive.

As you drive, a gauge helps you obtain the best mileage if you keep the arrow indicator in the noon to 2 p.m. position. If you're curious what the truck's hybrid system is doing, there's an easy to understand graph on the navigation screen that illustrates which parts of the system are working and under what conditions. That's better than the bewildering bar graphs and charts used in other hybrids.

Although the automaker has yet to announce prices for the hybrids, I expect them to be $1,000 to $2,000 more than a conventional model.

62vetteefp

The cost-cutting health care deal that General Motors Corp. wants from its next national UAW contract would provide less benefit to Chrysler LLC and be disastrous for Ford Motor Co., one of the nation's leading labor economists told more than 1,000 automotive leaders Wednesday.

Speaking at the annual Management Briefing Seminars in Traverse City, Sean McAlinden, the chief economist for the Center for Automotive Research, forecast four possible outcomes from the summer contract talks between the UAW and the Detroit automakers, ranging from a deal with minimal changes to one in which GM would completely offload the union retiree portion of its approximately $64-billion health care liability.

His scenarios do not consider the possibility of a strike or lockout.

"I believe the likelihood of concessions on health care costs is very high," McAlinden said. "For GM, this is the goal." The other companies, "unfortunately, have separate goals."

For Ford, McAlinden said, the goal is additional restructuring, including reduced wages and benefits.

For Chrysler, the top goal is achieving competitive operating agreements.

But for GM, the undisputed top priority in the ongoing contract negotiations with its largest union is the creation of a special trust – called a voluntary employee beneficiary association or VEBA – into which the automaker would pay a percentage of its retiree health care liability. That trust would then be responsible for paying future retiree health care costs, McAlinden said.

In GM's optimal scenario, McAlinden forecast that the automaker might be willing to commit to a 10 percent increase in active worker compensation rates in exchange for the union taking full responsibility for future UAW retiree health costs, which some analysts expect would take about a $40-billion payment from GM.

"GM may offer wages and some employment security for a large VEBA trust," McAlinden said, adding that such a deal would likely improve GM's cash position over time.

In the first year, he estimated, such a deal would lower GM's labor costs by $1.3 billion and lower its cost per vehicle by $538.

I think the 10% wage increase in exchange for the UAW taking on the retiree health care would not be a good exchange for the UAW. In 3 years GM would just get that 10% back by not giving an increase. With the way things are going the UAW would never be able to keep up with the cost. Then again they could jsut take that 10% and put it into a health care plan.

Why would it be the wrong way for Ford? Does GM have that many more retirees?

62vetteefp

It looks like GM has norrowed down from two to one for a battery supplier. A123 must be further ahead already.

General Motors Corp. said Thursday it has an
agreement with battery developer A123 Systems to create a battery cell for
the auto maker's planned Chevrolet Volt electric car, a move that could
help the auto maker win a global hybrid-electric vehicle race that
currently is dominated by Toyota Motor Corp.
GM already had an existing relationship with A123, but spokesman Rob
Peterson said the auto maker is now taking that partnership to the next
level by committing to work directly with the supplier on building an
affordable, high-power battery.
Lutz said the goal of the Volt program is to offer an electrically driven
car at the same price as a conventional medium-priced car. GM plans to
build a plug-in hybrid version of its Saturn Vue that will soon be
available in very limited quantities in order to gain momentum on the Volt
project.

Taking a leadership position in the race to launch such a vehicle could
help GM's drive to lead the fuel-economy debate in the future and shed its
gas-guzzling image. GM is spending billions of dollars on creating vehicles
that can run on alternative energy sources.

GM's goal is to get a vehicle based on the Volt's technology to market by
the end of 2010, Lutz said. The key to making such vehicles viable lies in
the development of so-called lithium-ion battery technology, GM insists.
Lutz's announcement comes as Toyota will delay by as much as two years the
launch of new high-mileage hybrids using lithium-ion battery technology,
according to a report by The Wall Street Journal.
Lutz said he thinks Toyota had "some problems" with their technology, which
also helps create an opportunity for GM to be first to market.

But warned against counting Toyota out, noting that they'll quickly find a
new technology. He also pointed out that GM hasn't built the car yet,
either.
GM also is working with other Continental Automotive and Compact Power
Inc., a subsidiary of LG Chem, on the Volt.

anotherguy

"As you can see, even they admit their survey can be tampered with."

Yes, if large numbers of people (I'd think it would take hundreds to thousands, not 50) buy a CR subscription with the sole purpose of screwing up the survey results they could do it. I just don't see evidence of it happening. It can also be done just as easily by pro-GM people as by anti-GM people.

By the way, the JD Powers survey can be tampered with by someone with a list of the people being surveyed and $10,000 for bribes. I don't see evidence of that happening either.

1487

"How do you know the results aren't based on the 1.8 20v Turbo 4cyl in the passat. Certainly, you'd agree its more advanced than the 4cyl or pushrod v6 in the Malibu. Even the 2.8 narrow angle v6 in the Passat is still a more advanced design. My point more than anything is everyone bashes VW's reliability and JD showed that the Passat was avg overall and in the powertrain area. "

actually one of the main reasons VW reliability is bashed is because of CR. PErhaps they arent as bad as CR claims. I wouldnt be surprised if that was the case.

"If you read what I said (god you like to put words in peoples mouths) was I don't put much stock in either CU's or JDs reports. "

what problem do you have with JD POwer other than you dont like their results?

1487

"Well maybe because the bar keeps on moving up. "

really? Thanks for explaining that. The point is that a car with a 5% problem rate that was reliable in 2000 isnt better than a car with the same problem rate in 2007. CR needs to establish consistent thresholds for each rating level. Instead they base everything on how the best cars peform and thus we end with cars with low problem ratings getting a "poor" reliability tag. What "poor" really means is that a particular vehicle is poor compared to a very reliable car using CR's own obscure standards. It doesnt mean the car is unreliable. As others have stated, without more data about how they determine the difference between poor and average and excellent and standard deviation data their ratings are useless. All that I ask is that they actually show you problems per vehicles, its a simple request but they will never comply.

1487

"Well CR does show graphs in their book issues(that come out in the fall/autumn on how reliable a car is vs other cars in the same class/category so its not like CR is hiding anything. I used the Mazda 6(V6) as an example of this a few years ago in my last posting. "

they are hiding quite a bit. All you have is their circles, no actual reliability data. As 62vette said, they wont do that because it will reveal how close cars have become today and CR would be irrelevant. CR exists to tell consumers that companies are intentionally trying to rip them off and deceive them. This is why they staged SUV rollovers and other things. If word gets out that Japanese cars arent much more reliable than domestic cars CR's auto issue becomes moot. Notice that road test scoring for domestics remains dismally low even though reliability is increasing. This ensures that people still feel there is a MAJOR difference between cars. CR's basic message is that "reliability is getting better in Detroit but their vehicles are still crap". They showed the average score for each manufacturer in the car issue and I believe GM vehicles averaged about 64 while Toyotas averaged close to 90. Its a joke. They said in general GM cars have poor handling, braking, cheap interiors and other things. It amazed me how CR places so much emphasis on handling and yet Toyota vehicles get stellar road test scores.

1487

"If you read the fine print, you will see that CU/CR won all of the lawsuits, some of which got thrown out as frivolous and the company (Sharper Image) for one had to pay over a half million in legal costs to CR.
"

wrong again, read the link on winkepedia, they did not win all the lawsuits. CR is completely biased and they have a habit of generating false bad news to pump up their image. They just got in trouble for not conducting child seat tests properly and trying to alarm the public a few months ago. I guess you missed that one though. They are a joke and you are wasting time by trying to justify their methods.

BTW, never trust a source that has to tell you repeatedly they are "unbiased". Why is that even necessary to say if it's true? CR spends a lot of time self promoting and patting themselves on the back for being unbiased. I wonder why.

1487

Newsflash: I dont think Dodges in 1994 were all that great. I have no doubt a contemporary Toyota was a better car in many regards.

CAn we move on? Again, why do we have endure daily GM bashing from you when the car that have you all the problems was a Dodge? GM and Chrysler are not the same company and many believe that until recently Chrysler had the worst quality of the Big 3.

Can you explain the problems my sister in law has had with her 2002 camry? should she swear off all Japanese cars just because her car has been less than stellar? Can you explain why my other sister in law has a mid 90s saturn with 167k miles on it? Anyone who claims to not know of domestic cars that last either isnt looking or doesnt have a large sample to chose from.

1487

"When my wife's Highlander needed a new $1500 HVAC control after 4 years, she didn't think it was a big deal. But what if that had been an Explorer? I could just hear it now....."

you are 100% on point. I have found that people have unlimited patience with import problems. I am thinking the same HVAC problem your wife had is what affected by sister in laws camry. I can guarantee you this will not be her last Toyota and that she would NEVER buy a domestic. My in laws swear up and down by Toyotas and these camry problems are unlikely to change their minds. I have another sister in law who was pretty skeptical about domestics after buying a used Mystique but she ended up with an new Ion and it has been trouble free for over 2 years.

1487

"Give some details on why CR data gathering is inaccurate especially as relates to GM. "

you cant be serious. Where have you been for the last few days? Many reasons were listed.

62vetteefp

http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gm- news/viewmediaspeechdetail.do?domain=2&docid=38391

1487

Thats why I like Lutz. Wait until you see how much negative reaction there will be to these comments. The truth is often quite offensive to many, if he was lying people would take it much better.

1487

"The 4 cyl Camry was only rated average reliability whereas the V6 Camry was rated above average in reliability and the Ford Fusion/Mecury Milan was rated higher(excellent reliability)than the 07 Camry in reliabiality so so much for the bias that you are talking about. "

most of the complaints regarding the tranny problems are related the V6 with 6 speed. Dont see how that car got an above average rating. Maybe the four cylinder has other issues that are more common, but the tranny issue belongs to the V6.

bumpy

That was a nice bit of fan service, but Lutz doesn't seem to understand the axiom, "There is no such thing as good management with bad results."

dieselone

what problem do you have with JD POwer other than you dont like their results?


Once again you are assuming things. I don't care if they rate a Camry the best car in the world or the worst. Like CU's rating system, JDs really don't tell me much. Can you tell me how much better a car with 5 dots is vs. a car with only 2 dots in a certain area? I have no idea. If I were to be looking at a Impala SS, how would I get a rating on the powertrain? I can't because they don't show ratings for each available powertrain.

dieselone

"When my wife's Highlander needed a new $1500 HVAC control after 4 years, she didn't think it was a big deal. But what if that had been an Explorer? I could just hear it now....."

you are 100% on point. I have found that people have unlimited patience with import problems.

In my experience I've certainly been more patient with vehicles I've owned that I really liked. My SVT Contour was such a car. I just loved how the car felt when driving it. I put up with tons of problems until I finally decided enough was enough and traded it in (after 80k miles). In my mind it still was a great car for the money.

My 01 Nissan Pathfinder(the only japaneese vehicle i've owned) was the same way other than I had only a few minor issues. 02 sensors at 25k miles covered under warranty. Even if say the trans would have died at 30k I would still have liked it because it had such a solid feel. It actually had better road manners than my wifes 01 Impala and had a solidness the Impala (or my Suburban) could only dream of. For the record, I test drove an 05 Nissan Armada when the lease was up on the Pathfinder. My Pathfinder still felt more solid with much better interior materials and felt Nissan had definitely gone down a notch in the latest models.

dieselone

If you look at the 2007 JD IQS report. Toyota and Honda are still rated higher than anything GM offers. Cadillac is rated a 3 Lexus got a 5.

Looks to me CU and JDs results are similar. If CU didn't exist GM would still be in the same boat they are in. Customers haven't been leaving GM in droves because they were brainwashed by CU's reports showing Toyota and Honda having better reliability. They left because somewhere along the line GM sold them a car or two that didn't meet their expectations.

Everyone I know that drives a Toy/Honda used to drive a domestic until the domestics gave them good reasons to look elsewhere. No doubt GM is offering a much more competitive product. It's just hard to win customers back. Toyota needs to offer a few lemons to chase people away.

m1miata

Interesting how people seem to like Kentucky Fried chicken, when introduced to a new country. Wonder if it runs its course there, just like it seems to have done here in the states? *burp*

I read about three quarters of the Lutz commercial. Pretty impressive, if preaching to the chior. Mostly same ol' stuff. Why did Toyota jump way out front with a hybrids by the thousands? The execution of launches & acceptance of cars, like the first ever G6, and subsequent flop of the car, I suppose is to be blamed on the press, or the customer. The dog may have eaten his homework, many years ago, but excuses no longer work today.

There have been wins, but no consistancy. The markets outside of North America look ripe for the picking, and GM is picking up some good share there. In looking at the more mature fields for the picking though, one must wonder if the right seeds got planted.

Loren

lemko

Mr. Lutz, you rock!!!

gsemike

"you are 100% on point. I have found that people have unlimited patience with import problems."

I don't have unlimited patience for any problems. That's why GM drove me away. I expect to have no problems, and that's what I've gotten from Honda and Nissan.

andres3

They expect fewer problems with them so they are less likely to freak out when a problem does come up.

Exactly the opposite is true to unbiased, unfettered, and un-neurotic people. Any reasonable and intelligent person can stand to assume that you'd be MORE shocked when a Toyota breaks down, as it is unexpected, and have no reason to be shocked or surprised when a domestic breaks down, right?

It's a tremendously big deal if something that shouldn't break down actually does; I'd freak out then.

sls002

I think to have "no problems" over a long period of time is unusual and you have been lucky. I have had very few problems over the past 10 years with the GM cars that I have owned, but I can't say zero defects.

gsemike

My last two cars were a 99 Civic and an 03 Altima. On the 99, nothing was ever fixed in 4 years and 34k. Not even brake pads. The Altima got brake pads at 22 and hasn't needed anything since and it now has 43k. I'm exlcuding routine maintenacne which is things like air filters and fluid changes which are always done on schedule.

andres3

By the way, the JD Powers survey can be tampered with by someone with a list of the people being surveyed and $10,000 for bribes. I don't see evidence of that happening either.

Haha, great example of just how LUNY and LOONEY and LOONY you have to be to believe CR's data is not accurate and truthful. CR's subscriber base is completely random and of the general population. There is no evidence that CR subscribers favor any brand over any other. After all, CR has been around a long time. The very first subscribers couldn't have known CR would be supposedly "pro Japanese."

One thing is certain, there is no evidence that CR's survey is not representative of the general population.

Furthermore, it's not as if the DMV is known for being accurate with their registration information. Ever heard of fraud... I'm sure you could trick them quite easily into thinking you owned 100 GM's..... JD is flawed immensely.

andres3

Actually, VW has been pretty darn bad in reliability in the past. My family owned an '87 Jetta and it had marginal reliablity until we were basically forced to get rid of it at 100,000 miles after spending thousands of dollars on it to keep it running.

Remember, its the car parts that break down and leave you stranded, not the paper pages of CR.

It is NOT CR's fault people view VW's with contempt, it is the cars and the "dealer service."

Paper doesn't break down, cars do (at least the poorly rated one's in CR do).

Recently, I had a VW GTI 2005 loaner from Audi dealership (15K mile service), and it had a bad sensor/bulb displaying the door was open when it wasn't.... the saga continues. Audi has cleaned up their act and produced very reliable cars lately. VW has not attempted at all to clean up their act, only lengthening their warranties to make up for the bad quality (like GM and Chrysler have done).

fezo

"intelligent person can stand to assume that you'd be MORE shocked when a Toyota breaks down, as it is unexpected, and have no reason to be shocked or surprised when a domestic breaks down, right?

It's a tremendously big deal if something that shouldn't break down actually does; I'd freak out then."

I certainly did!

So far I've had one catastrophic episode with Ford and one with Toyota. Honda's been fine over 5 vehicles. Chrysler was fine with one.

townhome

What you say makes total sense. I just don't understand how my mom (A Toyota lover) can not blink an eye when the cargo cover on her 8 month old, 3500 mile RX breaks and needs to be replaced but still make an insulting remark about how she doesn't believe that nothing has broken yet on my wife's 5 month, 10000 mile Lincoln MKX and that we should just wait and see. Or how my in-laws (also Toyota lovers) think it's funny that the headliner is falling down in their 7 yr old Avalon and the dome light falls and hits the driver in the head when they turn corners, yet they didn't want us to buy a Lincoln cause they are "not good". I told them my headliner and dome light are fine in my 11 year old Ranger, but they didn't see a connection with their Avalon.

Maybe I am surrounded by irrational people. I know for sure that most people I know are slightly neurotic.....

andre1969

I've known a few people with Toyotas that got fried engines prematurely, but it was their own fault, and not Toyota's. One of 'em was a mid-90's Corolla that was run almost dry on oil and seized up by around 30,000 miles. Dude was FURIOUS at Toyota. Nevermind the fact that he never bothered to change or add oil.

The other was an early 90's Tercel that had to put up with the same abuse, but mercifully made it to about 60,000 miles before calling it quits.

I had a theory that sometimes people will buy these import cars with strong reputations, and because of that reputation they'll abuse them, neglect them, etc. But that can't be the case, because if enough people did that, it would ultimately sink the ratings!

FWIW, my uncle's 03 Corolla finally got sick, but hopefully not in too major of a way. He had the catalytic converter replaced about a month ago. But now the check engine light is back on, and according to my buddy's code reader, same issue as before the replacement. And to top it off, my uncle overheated the car last week. He got it home, and it's still running, but I dunno if he did any permanent damage. It's going into the shop this weekend.

I don't blame Toyota for this, as the car does have over 140,000 miles on it now, so it's not exactly brand-new. But if it were GM or another domestic, at that mileage, I wouldn't blame them either.

My 2000 Intrepid's air conditioner is starting to fail. It uses the same a/c components as a Honda Accord. So if I want to play the blame game, who should I go after? The domestics? The Japanese? The Germans? :P

m1miata

Did they explain what was going on during the time of the headliner of the car falling down? Is this nearer the back seat area? Perhaps this better explains the humor of the occurance

Just trying to reason this out,
Loren

fezo

I don't blame Toyota for this one either. Car over 100K, bought well used without more than a carfax and a new driver. Now we were unusually unlucky even at that but things happen. I'll live.

It's back on the road now and she's happy.

I wonder whatever happened to Click and Clack's oil experiment? The had an old Colt Vista and were not going to change the oil at all and see what happened. They were adding a quart as needed but not changing the oil. Once something happened they were going to take apart the engine and report....

andres3

Perhaps CR tells everyone repeatedly about what they do (to self promote) and to let everyone know what they are doing but others are NOT doing. To show the competitors really do lack in substance (like JD Powers).

It's a good reminder. The main thing CR does right is they buy their own cars, they don't get the souped up model version like BMW was found guilty of doing with the Edmunds test on the 335.

Another thing to note is that when CR is wrong or makes a mistake (like in the child seat case recently) they apologized and readily admitted they had made an error. They've never admitted any errors when reviewing GM makes.

sls002

CR is currently recommending a number of GM models.

sls002

My 2002 Seville still had the original brake pads when I traded it in with about 60,000 miles on it. I only had one major problem that was fixed under warranty.

andres3

What was that one major problem?

cooterbfd

What does it matter? Even if it was a tranny, it was repaired under warranty. According to your guidlines w/ your Honda, that should be acceptable. One incident, covered by warranty.

chetj

he traded but they all ran good

chetj

probably didnt win any but they cost less...the neon powertrain was reliable i hear..the early models were not that good, but they did improve... me and my neighbor work in same place ( 64 mileround trip) and he likes dodges...so all the import fanboys can stick that in their pipe...or somewhere else

chetj

wow a domestic that runs and is fun to drive...i thought i was the only one

chetj

there has never been a less than stellar honda or toyota...cept that used accord i had..so i had to swear off my one and only asian car...it was somewhat of a pain so that must mean the rest are the same

andres3

The Neon costs less if you don't count the repair bills you'll get over the years and the horrible resale at the end of your ownership experience.

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Chrysler made any attempt to improve reliability from the '95 model through the '99 model. The reliability never improved is what is the truth of the matter.

Saying the early models were not that good is putting it as lightly as you possibly could. Another way to say it is that Chrysler committed outright fraud in selling these cars to the public.

andres3

Chrysler's!!!!! :surprise: Due to Chrysler, GM doesn't look so good anymore. They've been effectively put in their place, by Chrysler of all companies.

GM's offensive is equal to a 1 yard dive/run play on 3rd down and 10. Chrysler's is like a hail mary pass for 50 yards, albeit on 4th down and 40

GM's offensive = 5 year 100K powertrain warranty
Chrysler's offensive = lifetime with lifetime mileage powertrain warranty.

And Chrysler claims on their website to pay for the 5 year pent-annual checkup that is required (with the catch you have to meet the super short 60 day warranty service window every 5 years, or your VOIDED! :mad:

I wonder how many other "get out of jail free" clauses Chrysler puts into the warranty? Sounds sort of like one of those Best Buy rebates you never get..... :P

Now on Chrylser's downside there are many complaints:

They don't make anything anyone wants.
They don't offer transferability of the warranty.
They don't extend it to ALL 2007 models (some already purchased, and some they just might as well admit are terribly unreliable and even THEY won't stand behind them.
They don't guarantee the funds will be there to pay for warranty service 10 years from now.... I'd like to see an independent bank account setup that they aren't allowed to spend on unless a warranty claim is made.
There bumper to bumper warranty still sucks......

What does that mean... well.. if you have a Dodge, they might pay for your broken tranny and head gaskets, but you'll still pay for thousands in repairs in the first 65,000 miles for the following:

Windshield structural defects
Parking brake defects
O2 sensors and gas tank O ring seals
Window seals and weatherstripping
battery terminals, cables, starter wires/cables
Alternator and Timing belts before their time is up
Air Conditioning which is $$$$
Fuel pump and sensors
Rattles and squeaks galore and the general feeling that your driving a car that at any moment could self destruct and fall apart like Jim Carey's car did in "The Mask."

cooterbfd

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Chrysler made any attempt to improve reliability from the '95 model through the '99 model. The reliability never improved is what is the truth of the matter.

Not sayning they were good cars, but you base this on what?

"outright fraud" is Honda lovers way of going overboard again.

cooterbfd

Windshield structural defects
Parking brake defects
O2 sensors and gas tank O ring seals
Window seals and weatherstripping
battery terminals, cables, starter wires/cables
Alternator and Timing belts before their time is up
Air Conditioning which is $$$$
Rattles and squeaks galore and the general feeling that your driving a car that at any moment could self destruct and fall apart like Jim Carey's car did in "The Mask."

Boy, my GM car never had any of these defects. None of them. EVER!!! GM never paid to replace any of my trannies-oh but that's right, unlike your HONDA, none of mine have ever FAILED!!!

andres3

I base the '95 to '99 assertion on CR survey results which didn't seem to improve on any of those years in any significant way.

I base the "outright fraud" on my direct purchase experience with the vehicle, and the feeling that if it didn't qualify as a "lemon (which is a type of fraud in my book)" then nothing does or ever will.

It was definitely a lemon by any reasonable person's standards, it was just a lemon that was designed to not completely show its true colors until the warranty ran out.... and the law said that it was to late to call it a "lemon."

Being a Honda lover is not necessary to be calling Chrysler out for "outright fraud" in selling cars.

andres3

Yes... but a tranny failure at say 10K miles would be EVEN more embarrassing than the one at 42K miles.

An engine failure would be even MORE embarrassing still!

Did they pay for a rental car? Did they fix it in 2 days or less? All relevant questions to ask.

One incident covered by warranty is "acceptable," but if the dealer/manufacturer doesn't act like it is embarrassing, but rather "normal procedure," then it isn't acceptable.

Also it should be noted he only kept his "one major problem" domestic for 60,000 miles and traded it in. Was it still driving and feeling like new when he sold it? My Honda was driving like it was brand new still, and I got 53% resale back (of the out the door cost) at 50 months old with almost 10% more miles then that!