General Motors discussions

lemko

Geeze, dude. If you hate Chrysler so much why not just create a "I Hate Chrysler" topic and lay off GM who's done you no harm. By the way, I had a Chrysler product back in the day - a 1985 Chrysler Fifth Avenue. It turned out to be one of the best dang cars I ever owned! I sold it to my brother over 13 years ago and he's still driving it with well over 230K+ miles on it!

cooterbfd

Yes... but a tranny failure at say 10K miles would be EVEN more embarrassing than the one at 42K miles.

An engine failure would be even MORE embarrassing still!

I wouldn't know about EITHER, as it has NEVER happened on a GM product I've owned.

Rental car?? Got one for the 4 hrs it took them to replace the PS rack in my wife's Ranier, all done for free out of warranty (tsb).

BTW, our '04 Ranier is tied for JD Powers best mid sized activity (re: SUV and CUV) vehicle, w/ it's sister Bravada.

cooterbfd

Dont you know, 1 bad Chrysler = all bad America.

louiswei

Yeah, also...

1 bad used Honda Accord = all bad imports.

This is really getting nowhere, talking about other manufactures like Chrysler and Toyota has nothing to do with GM's offensive.

62vetteefp

If you look at the 2007 JD IQS report. Toyota and Honda are still rated higher than anything GM offers. Cadillac is rated a 3 Lexus got a 5.

But look at the actual numbers. At 3 weeks Lexus had about 1 problem per car while Cadillac had a HUGE 1.3 problems. does not seem like enough to decide not to buy a Cadillac. Of course Cadillac has some improvement but boy, sure not a lot of difference.

Like I keep saying, today reliability is not a factor anymore. But we can keep harping on it.

m1miata

Was that in the transmission or engine oil seal by any chance? I was considering a used SLS at one time recently and saw the repair records. It did have some issues. I am thinking the CTS, after the first year model are a best bet in the Caddy line of autos. An additional smaller Caddy may sell well. Not sure how much it would take from CTS sales, but an overall plus, I would think. Something like a Bimmer 3 series perhaps size wise. Is it an optical illusion, or are those cars larger these days? They could offer the stick version and the 2.8V6 if that saves of building costs (not sure why, but someone here would know) and sell it for around $29,000 would be pretty cool. They could drop the stick on the CTS, as I have never even seen one for sale; a pretty low demand, no doubt.
Loren

andre1969

I wonder whatever happened to Click and Clack's oil experiment? The had an old Colt Vista and were not going to change the oil at all and see what happened. They were adding a quart as needed but not changing the oil. Once something happened they were going to take apart the engine and report....

I'd imagine that with an older vehicle that's leaking/burning oil, as long as you change the filter every once in awhile, you might be able to get away for a long, long time without changing the oil. If it leaks/burns at the rate of 1 quart per 1000 miles, and presuming you top it off whenever it gets a quart low, it pretty much stabilizes to the point that about 3 1/2 quarts (presuming 5 quart capacity) of that oil will always be 4,000 miles or "younger". It sort of "changes" itself!

I knew someone back in high school/college whose Dad had a '72 Dart with a slant six. They rarely, if ever, changed the oil. Just added every once in awhile. It finally died around 100,000 miles in 1989, but not because of the engine. They just let it sit too long. They told me I could have it if I could get it started. I managed to get it to fire up, but then a fuel hose ruptured and it started spewing gas. Here I'm thinking okay, three bucks at an auto parts store, but they're thinking fuel leak = dangerous car and suddenly it's "Sorry, we can't let you have something that dangerous, so we're just going to junk it". And eventually, it got impounded for sitting on the street with no tags.

Oh, and slant six engines are prone to sludging if you slack off on oil changes, so it's not just Toyota that has a monopoly on that! Of course, slant six sludge doesn't make the headlines, while Toyota sludge does. But that could be because when a Toyota engine sludges it's shot, whereas the sludge helps keep a slant six from leaking! :P

fezo

You do know how to pick your cars. Those Fifth Avenues were solid cars. My dad had an 83 and took is past 200K.

62vetteefp

GM's offensive = 5 year 100K powertrain warranty
Chrysler's offensive = lifetime with lifetime mileage powertrain warranty.

Actually Chryslers warranty will work out to be cheaper than GM's. It is non transferable and since most sell well before GM's 5 year is up (and transferable) Chrysler will not have to come up with much money. Of course GM's reliability is so good now few will ever have any problems anyway. Of course having a transferable warranty will help GM's resale more than Chryslers deal will.

andre1969

You do know how to pick your cars. Those Fifth Avenues were solid cars. My dad had an 83 and took is past 200K.

Yeah, those M-bodies tended to score about the best a domestic could hope for in those days...average. But I think they were mainly dragged down in more peripheral areas like trim, squeaks and rattles, electrical systems, etc. Drivetrains were about as solid as you could get. Also seems like they were the one RWD Mopar that they actually more or less got right when it came to rustproofing. They were based on the Aspen/Volare, which were pretty bad in '76 and early 1977, and then improved, but it seemed like Chrysler put more effort into the M-body (Diplomat, LeBaron, 5th Ave, '82+ Gran Fury). The 1980-83 Cordoba/Mirada were on the same platform, but tended to fall apart quicker. And I've had enough experience with the R-body (1979-81 full size) to know that rust resistance was not their strong suit.

62vetteefp

Despite "substantial" improvements in lithium-ion
batteries in the last few years, even months, the technology is not yet
ready for automotive applications, says a Toyota Motor Corp. engineer.

"It's pretty staggering the benefits and the advantages that have been
shown through litho-technology, but they haven't proven that it's ready for
the automotive market yet. They are still in that developmental,
demonstration phase," said Justin Ward, an engineer at the automaker's
advanced technology vehicles unit in Gardena, Calif.

General Motors
hosted a dinner to introduce the growing team of engineers working on the
electric-powered Chevrolet Volt and the newly-signed-on battery makers.

David Cole, Ph.D., chairman for the Center of Automotive Research, which
hosted the conference at which GM made its announcement, sat next to me. As
the discussions with the engineers and, in particular, the battery
developers grew deeper throughout the evening, Cole, a retired professor of
mechanical engineering at the University of Michigan, could not stop
saying: “Wow.”

By evening’s end, Cole, who’s privy to lots of inside information at all
the auto companies and has served on boards of technical companies, said he
was now very optimistic about the future prospects for the Volt and
subsequent GM electrified vehicles. “This is the game changer” unlike
anything he’d seen in his long automotive career, he said.

Cole sees the biggest risk to GM’s venture as something seemingly simple:
cheap gas.

Cole’s optimism stems from the fact that, in contrast to what he and many
of us thought was required for lithium-ion batteries for the Volt, was
invention. Instead, it is engineering that is required.

The science is done and proven for the lithium-ion chemistry, not only in
the lab but in the real world. In fact, the batteries are already in
manufacturing and in commercial use on a massive scale.


http://www.autoobserver.com/

the GM part above by Michelle Krebs-one of the more knowledgable writers.

pmusce

Haha, great example of just how LUNY and LOONEY and LOONY you have to be to believe CR's data is not accurate and truthful. CR's subscriber base is completely random and of the general population. There is no evidence that CR subscribers favor any brand over any other. After all, CR has been around a long time. The very first subscribers couldn't have known CR would be supposedly "pro Japanese."

One thing is certain, there is no evidence that CR's survey is not representative of the general population.

Furthermore, it's not as if the DMV is known for being accurate with their registration information. Ever heard of fraud... I'm sure you could trick them quite easily into thinking you owned 100 GM's..... JD is flawed immensely.

Can you give one logical explanation why 'JD is flawed immensely'? JD Powers gathers their information using the most accurate methods that any statistics expert would agree with. CR does not. You are absolutely right that there is no evidence that CR's surveys may not be representative of the general public. The problem is due to the methods they use to gather their information, there is no evidence that it does represent the general population. CR's subscriber base is not completely random and of the general population base as you state. How can it be random when the people filling out the surveys are not picked randomly?

britcrlvr

it seems to me that in the past GM quality was substandard. Examples Include: Cadillac Catera, Corvette, geo prism, etc. However, once Lutz came back products have improved tremendously, although I personally don't care for the styling of the HHR just the production and execution suggested the General was moving in the right direction. Then the solstice and sky. Again, progress in the right direction, then the vette, elimination of the ugly minivans, and all the sudden GM is starting to look good again. The malibu was an improvement over the prev gen but I have read the 08 Malibu is going to have top notch quality. Quality improvements in Cadillac Check. Improvements in Chevy models check. GMC models Check. Saab tbd. Buick Check. Pontiac Most definetly. hummer tbd. Bottom Line GM is going in the right direction, the next question is can Ford follow. I hope so for America's sake.

britcrlvr

I know this is a GM forum so I apoloize to those who I offend. I wanted to know how do I start a "kill Mercury Forum"

murphydog

IMHO GM is clearly trying to shake things up, and I really am keeping my fingers crossed. I hope they are not doing what we are doing on this board, e.g. "CR rocks, no CR Sucks" etc. If that is the tone of the senior management meetings they are doomed.

However I think there must be a few smart ones near the top. I would really love to hear what they are thinking and see what they are trying to do. No doubt GM is a big ship and she will be somewhat slow to steer, but if they can get her on the right course look out.

Seriously though - did they really think that little silver GM badge on all their product really was going to have an significant impact on sales? That little move does not inspire 100% confidence in me.

"gosh I was going to buy "fill in the import" but the Chevy had this cool silver GM badge on the side, I rushed across the street an bought it!"

Love the Lambda's, can't wait to see the Malibu and if they really do build the drop top Camaro I may have to make a purchase.

m1miata

You are trying to kill something which is dying? Now that is a bit much. Maybe check out the Kevorkian formum?

Loren

jcgable

It's like kicking a 3 legged dog while it limps...

lemko

The problem sls might be refering to is the lower crankcase seal. It's a $44 part, but to replace it requires the removal of the engine. Labor costs between $1,600-$2,300. I believe it affected the earlier Northstar-equipped cars.

lemko

GM's offensive = 5 year 100K powertrain warranty
Chrysler's offensive = lifetime with lifetime mileage powertrain warranty.

Too bad that Chrysler warranty isn't retroactive. Then you could take your 1957 DeSoto and 1979 New Yorker and 1979 Fifth Avenue to the local Chrysler dealer for free!

sls002

The car was still working and I continued to drive it until it could be repaired. A solenoid that controls the torque converter lock up failed.

gagrice

My Honda was driving like it was brand new still, and I got 53% resale back (of the out the door cost) at 50 months old with almost 10% more miles then that!

That is horrible. I thought that Honda's held their value better than that. Get a GM truck and you won't get ripped so badly at resale time. I just got 88% after 25 months on my GMC PU truck. Try that with any Honda. It did take 6 months posting on Craigslist to get my price. But then, I never get in a hurry to sell or buy. Buy low and sell high is my motto.

gsemike

My brother just spent a grand to fix the moonroof on his 2000 Regal that has under 50k. Just why am I supposed to go running back?

sls002

I bought an entirely different type of vehicle though. I had wanted a station wagon for some time, but GM really does not build a wagon, much less anything like a 5 series wagon. I bought an SRX.

gsemike

"GM really does not build a wagon"

The Saab wagons don't do it for you? What about the HHR?

sls002

Big deal, my brother spent 3 grand to fix the engine in his Honda.

sls002

Saab dealers, like BMW dealers, are a day's drive away from here.

gagrice

Did you get the ultra view sun roof. I sat in one and that was cool.

sls002

I wanted three basic options: the premium luxury package, the utility package and the 20 inch wheel package. The first gets you the nav and sunroof, the second has heavy duty cooling (including power steering), the last includes a limited slip differential with AWD.

lemko

Shoot, the sunroof broke on a co-worker's Honda Accord too. He never bothered to get it fixed. I was going to buy a used Mercedes S-Class from a lady co-worker about six years ago. The sunroof was busted on it too. I never had a sunroof on any of my cars. They're a pain in the butt.

stever

The Help link down at the bottom will tell you how to start a new discussion, although there is an active one already that probably will work for you:

Will Mercury soon be joining Plymouth and Oldsmobile?

plekto

GM's offensive = 5 year 100K powertrain warranty
Chrysler's offensive = lifetime with lifetime mileage powertrain warranty.

****
That's only good if Chrysler is around to cover it. I honestly give them about 3-5 years before Dodge and Jeep are all that's left - and likely sold off or made into a whole new company.

Plus, honestly, the average GM engine is as reliable as anything Honda or Toyota puts out these days. And GM currently builds the best transmissions(you'd be astounded at the number of other non-GM vehicles areound the world that use GM transmissions - including many "European" brands. It's the REST of the car that is boring, stodgy, and falls apart easily(though to be honest, nothing like Ford's miserable interiors).

That 1-2 year old Grand Prix may be a miserable looking and about as fun as oatmeal car to drive, but it'll likely outlast the average 60-65+ year old person who buys it. :P

gsemike

I can only go on my first hand experience and everyone in my family that drives GMs have had issues, mostly small but issues. I've had none.

gsemike

My brothers issue was that it wouldn't close all the way so it had to be fixed. I had a moonroof on my Civic and never had an issue in 4 years. I actually miss not having one.

maple2

Saying the early models were not that good is putting it as lightly as you possibly could. Another way to say it is that Chrysler committed outright fraud in selling these cars to the public.

Let me get this straight, you claim that chrysler sold you a lemon neon and committed fraud by selling cars to the public yet after the neon you bought an intrepid and have since had somewhat good luck with it. In your mind this translates into gm=bad. :confuse: On top of that,the honda transmission that failed you cant seem to praise enough. :mad:

m1miata

Why don't they just add Saab to Saturn Opel dealerships? I see some Cadillac dealers taking on Saab, trying to satisfy those which can not afford or decide they don't like the Caddy? Whatever the reason, as Caddy goes RWD, I don't see the fit. On the other hand, Buick is the lower end Cadillac as a Lucerne. The DeVille owners would still have their FWD large car. Saturn, as we knew it, is no more. There will be no plastic sided cars, and they are simply getting different version of GM cars to be sold under the Saturn label, so why not just consider them now as GM World Imports? I hope that when Pontiac goes Imports, as in all Holdens RWD performance cars, they do not leave cars like the G6 in FWD just hanging there to twist in the wind. The G6 is another one of the great mysteries of GM. Why is there all these versions of a FWD car, only to have it killed off in but a few years?

Loren

m1miata

1) Not all Neons were lemons, but it certainly was not a stellar effort.
2) Chrysler deserves praise for taking chances and building a totally New car - the Intrepid. Most cars are the same ol' - same o'.
3) Honda has a good record for car builds for decades now.
4) All this has nothing to do with GM product, old or new.
5) Thought the topic is about strategies by GM, and products moving forward.

Now FOCUS :surprise:

dave8697

checked several pages of sunfire reviews. wanted to find reliability info on 2005 models as they were the final year and all 2+ years old. Of all that I found two reliability issues. One person let the dealer convince them that the air vents should blow weak from one side. Another found water in their trunk and didn't like the sound of the engine. Funny thing is that this person somehow bought their 2005 in 2003.

Other than that there was a 100% perfect record for reliability from about 20 other reviews. I know the '07 G5 is a totally new car that is increased in size and weight to eclipse the Accords of not long ago at 2991 lbs. An all-alum twin cam with tops in class HP and Torque. Some say that based on previous history is is below average reliability.

What is this previous history? The 2005 Sunfire is stellar in reliability. The '07 car is completely different anyway with a redesigned engine and chassis. I am curoius as to CR's reliability ratings for the '07 G5 and their basis. I've already seen how Edmunds TCO calls for thousands of dollars in repairs of it based on the '05 Sunfire's stellar record and the fact that is is still under a 100000 mile powertrain warranty when it needs those repairs.

andre1969

Let me get this straight, you claim that chrysler sold you a lemon neon and committed fraud by selling cars to the public yet after the neon you bought an intrepid and have since had somewhat good luck with it.

Wait, did I miss something here? Does andres3 have an Intrepid?! Or are you getting his posts mixed up with mine? I have an Intrepid that's been pretty reliable, although it's almost 8 years old now and has about 134,000 miles on it, so it's not exactly showroom new anymore!

I figure a bum '95 Neon would probably scare a prospective buyer off from Chrysler for years, if not decades to come!

sls002

We don't have Saturn dealer either. Now that I have the SRX, I am looking forward to trying it out in some snow. We may not get much snow, with the drought seeming to continue on endlessly, but some day I expect the climate to shift back and over compensate.

carguy58

"CR's basic message is that "reliability is getting better in Detroit but their vehicles are still crap"."

CR never said domestics were crap and CR has placed the Domestics Big 3 reliability the Germans over the last few years.

"This is why they staged SUV rollovers and other things."

What the rollover with the Suzuki its a a japanese branded car so what does a Suzuki car have to do with GM?

"Notice that road test scoring for domestics remains dismally low even though reliability is increasing."

Well CR did like the Fusion/Milan as I said before and they did like the new Saturn Outlook so I don;t understand about the bias thing that you are talking about(of late anyway.)

"They showed the average score for each manufacturer in the car issue and I believe GM vehicles averaged about 64 while Toyotas averaged close to 90. Its a joke."

Where did you see that the average Toyota scored a 90? In the March or April issue(their big car issue) of CR Toyota scored a 70 and not a 90 and Toyota was outscored by Honda, Mazda, Nissan, Mercedes and VW/Audi so I don't know where you getting 90 from for an average test score for Toyota.

"It amazed me how CR places so much emphasis on handling and yet Toyota vehicles get stellar road test scores.

Well the Accord and Altima did do better than the Camry in CR latest tests so its not like CR is in love with Toyota or something and the Honda Civic EX, and Mazda 3(forget which trim level) did better in CR's road tests than the Corolla did. CR also gave the Lexus GS a very lukewarm review as well.

"They said in general GM cars have poor handling, braking, cheap interiors and other things."

I;m trying to find the latest issue of CR in my house bet I can't seem to find it to see CR's commentary on GM.

carguy58

"actually one of the main reasons VW reliability is bashed is because of CR. PErhaps they arent as bad as CR claims. I wouldnt be surprised if that was the case."

1487, did you see VW's results as a brand on the JD Powers survey from cars surveyed from 2004 and how they are holding up now? VW as a brand is near the bottom of that survey so its just not just CR who thinks VW's have bad reliability its JD Powers too.

carguy58

"Or how my in-laws (also Toyota lovers) think it's funny that the headliner is falling down in their 7 yr old Avalon and the dome light falls and hits the driver in the head when they turn corners, yet they didn't want us to buy a Lincoln cause they are "not good". I told them my headliner and dome light are fine in my 11 year old Ranger, but they didn't see a connection with their Avalon."

I'm sure there are 7 year old Domestics that have the same headliner problem as yiur in-laws Avalon I mean all cars have problems.

carguy58

"I don't blame Toyota for this one either. Car over 100K, bought well used without more than a carfax and a new driver. Now we were unusually unlucky even at that but things happen. I'll live."

I was under the impression that Andre's uncle;s brought the Corolla new? No?

andre1969

I was under the impression that Andre's uncle;s brought the Corolla new? No?

My uncle bought his Corolla new, back around Memorial Day 2002 (the '03's came out kinda early), but Fezo was talking about his daughter's Camry.

Oh, I also found out my uncle's Corolla's not as bad off as I thought. He told me he overheated it. It turns out what happened was the temp gauge spiked up higher than normal, but never did go into the red zone, and eventually stabilized right around the center of the gauge. So we think it might just be a stuck thermostat. We took it up this morning to the muffler shop that did the converter, and he said it acted normally. The guy at the muffler shop noticed the O2 sensor was loose, and he thought that might've triggered the SES light. But after about 10 minutes on the way home, it came on again, so back to the shop it went, and they'll give us an update on Monday.

carguy58

"Boy, my GM car never had any of these defects. None of them. EVER!!! GM never paid to replace any of my trannies-oh but that's right, unlike your HONDA, none of mine have ever FAILED!!!"

You know lets face it all cars have problems, has lemons I mean my Mom had a bad experience with a GM product but she did purchase 3 other GM products after her bad experience with a 1992 or 1993 model year GM car.

As far as Andres 3's experience with his Neon I mean the Neon of that time just did not have good quality/reliability. I mean it would have been good if Andres would have waited till the 2nd or 3rd year of bodystyle for that particular generation of Neon to allow Dodge to get the kinks worked out of the Neon but I don;t think the Neon of that time was good for the quality/reliability vehicle factor at all.

My mom had a similar experience that Andres did with her bad GM product(a 92 or 93 Grand Am) I mean the thing would go in the shop for A/C work like every summer. I don;t think the Grand Am of that time had good quality/reliability either. When it came trade time my liked the the 1999 Grand Am put passed on it(I say that was a good move) and got the 1999 Grand Prix instead.

m1miata

Want Sunfire info? Not sure why, but here is some:
link
link 2
Don't know if I would class it as stellar for reliability, but at a certain point, who cars? It is but another Cavalier. You can get a Monte Carlo used really cheap, and it may be more pleasurable a drive.

Alas, none of this has anything to do with GM's future offerings.... well let's hope it doesn't.
Loren

carguy58

"it seems to me that in the past GM quality was substandard. Examples Include: Cadillac Catera, Corvette, geo prism, etc."

The Prizm didn;t have bad reliability I don;t think: The Prizm was made in the Freemont(California) Plant that Toyota and GM share together currently the Vibe/Matrix is being built in that plant I believe. I liked the early-mid 90's Prizms: they had a nice contemparary exterior look to them.

As for the Corvette having bad reliability I don;t think people care if the Vette has bad reliability because people buy the Vette for its prestige factor.

Yeah the Catera was not a good effort all the way around just not the reliability part of the equation alone.

dave8697

So a '08 G5 won't be a future offering? Many of GM's past models were and still are great cars. There's misinformation being spread about their reliability and how it is carried forward.

Checked your links and it seems pretty stellar to me. Model lasted 10 years and every problem but one was fixed by '99 models. They never found a drivetrain problem after 2000 and the '03 to '05 engine with 140 HP performed flawlessly. This agrees with all the 10's it got for reliability from owners on Edmunds.

The reason? To question truthfulness or knowledge of those putting the G5 down. Baselessness discovered so far.

I took a ride in a new Mazda 3 yesterday. It had Much More road noise then the G5 I recently test drove. I sat in the back seat of the Mazda 3 and was locked in place. With my heels against the back seat, half my shoe was hooked under the back of the front seat. I'm not kidding..HALF my shoe was hooked in. I had to take my hand and twist my foot and leg to climb out. Sitting, my knees had be be up along the two sides of the front seat back, with one wedged against the pillar. It was a 4 dr manual '07.

dave8697

I drove a near new one to Detroit and back the second year they were out with the 3.4L. It got 35 mpg on the 480 mi round trip, quiet and smooth. It got compliments at the rest stop. Don't know how they have been powered since around '02. When I was test driving Impalas a few months ago they were offering me a new '06 on their showroom for very close to $20k with the nascar decals, sunroof, the works.

m1miata

Well I have no idea about the '05 Sunfire. Earlier models had electrical, and brake issues, I think it was. If you looked at the review, it seems like the overall scoring is rather low. It simply does nothing particularity well. A boring little car. Now a Mazda3 on the other hand can be driven, and looks sharp inside and out. As for the G5, the predicted reliability can only be based on the Cobalt, which thus far is not so stellar. It is possible that it could be an average car. They need a NEW car to replace the Cobalt. The car needs to be better than the competition, or at the very least look stunning and be fairly competitive. I hear the terms spoken in relation to the old Cavalier that the new car is a step forward, much improved, or so much better, or a good interior. However you see it, the bottom line is you have Hyundai / Kia for low cost with a warranty, and Japan makes for reliability,performance, fuel mileage resale, and value, so if they so desire to butt heads with all the rest, the NEW Cobalt needs to be an all new car. It could be something with a much sexier look, or something with better gas mileage, and tons more room inside. It simply must stand out for some reason. Look, if decent reliability, sort of good fuel economy, safety and warranty is the issue, look at what the Sonata is today. Yes, once discounted it is competing with the Cavalier. Who knows how low priced the rest of the Hyundai line may be. A well optioned Cobalt could cost you more than a V6 discounted Sonata. Looks wise the Civic coupe is simply a modern looking sleek car vs. a pleasing sort of traditional, I have seen this before, Cobalt coupe look. Nice, but not new or really sexy.
Loren