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Comments
my parents' car is a '98 and the headliner is fine as is most of the interior. I'm sure its an anomaly though, thats always the excuse when a domestic car isnt falling apart after 50k miles.
The Honda trasmission started to fail but they didn't treat it as "business as usual," and stepped up to cover it after the warranty had already expired. Also, other then the tranny, the car mechanicals were flawless. It's easier to forgive one major problem when there aren't 100 other minor and major problems you've already had to deal with. "
Are you saying your rental cars broke down because they were american? Give me a break man. We rented a Chevy Astro years back and drove cross country and put about 7k miles on it in 2 weeks. not one problem. Just drove a charger about 1200 miles in 4 days without one incident. I have never had a problem with a domestic rental in my entire life. No AC failures, no engine problems, nothing.
You are bascially saying you are OK with problem cars as long as the dealer is responsive. if thats the case you would like my car. Had more problems than I would like but the dealer "stepped uP' and took care of all of them without a fuss. My brother has a 3 and has not had the same experience with Mazda, he actually had to try another dealer to get some responsiveness.
the standard import lover argument is "I'm not going to throw money away just to buy american. When Detroit makes cars that last more than 50kmiles maybe I will buy one. Until then I will buy imports because they are the only quality vehicles offered".
Didnt you get the memo?
exactly, for many people CR is the ONLY source they trust and coicidentally CR gives domestic cars the worst ratings in road tests and reliability.
first of all the last gen camry was less than impressive and to call it a benchmark of any kind is a joke. The car had a mushy brake pedal that had 4" of dead travel before brakes engaged. It also had soft handling (as we all know), no illumination on most window switches/steering wheel buttons (my parents Intrigue has this), no radio controls on wheel (intrigue had this), hard plastic armrests on doors, hard plastic surrounding the center stack controls, no premium sound system (Intrigiue had BOSE),etc. In addition I found all the center stack controls hard to reach from the driver's seat, you have to lean forward to adjust anything if you dont sit with your seat upright. The upside was the engine was very quiet.
The Aura XR was very quiet and refined. The interior is not up to PAssat standards but the issues are minor in my book since the functionality is fine. The ride was definitely European in nature as was the steering feel. The car feels like a heavy luxury car on the road.
The Vue (which I find ugly) is definitely one of GM's most solid interiors ever. I could find NOTHING in the vehicle that wasnt up to import standards, and I mean German imports. The interior is definitely on another level than that of the RAV4, CX-7 and other vehicles. Every door and lever is damped and substantial. The gaps are tight and well aligned, the dash is completely low sheen in appearance. It was very impressive and far better than the Charger I rented two weeks back.
We just bought a 2008 VUE XR AWD last night. We pick it up today; it had just been delivered to the dealer and they had to pull the plastic off everything in order for us to test drive it.
I agree with everything you said except the ugly part. We traded in an '04 VUE for the '08 and while the '04 was, shall we say, "distinctive" in its styling, the '08 just looks more upscale, both inside and out. It may be that our '04 was that Electric Blue, while the '08 is Techno Gray, but the '08 is, IMO, one handsome vehicle.
The interior is leaps and bounds better than the previous model.
Too bad you didn't drive one. The XR we bought has the 3.6L V6 with the 6 speed auto (w/ tap shift); it makes imperceptible shifts and rides and handles much more like a European car. Which, I guess, it is, since it really is the Opel Antara.
I'm not happy about the weight gain as it affects both performance and fuel economy, but I suppose that is the trade off for the quiet, substantial ride.
And, we didn't even consider anything else. This is the 5th Saturn our family has bought in less than 5 years, and we really enjoy the customer service aspect that Saturn is known for.
The Camaro will not be saved by high school kids who can barely afford the payments and insurance on a Cobalt. It will live or die on the wallets of baby boomers who wanted one when they were in high school.
CR does not "give". Cars/vehicles "earn" the ratings and evaluations that CR publishes.
Don't know to what extent late teens and early 20's follow NHRA (drag racing). Chevy Cobalt (RWD) does quite well in Pro-Stock competition. A Cobalt won this class at last Sunday's meet in Minnesota.
And yea, the camaro will be purchased mostly by 50+ folks.
Another area that they need to address is hybrids. They need some sort of gas-saving option in most of the model lines. Flex-fuel just does not cut it for me.
Good move designing a car to be lusted after by 18 year olds and then price it over 30k decked out. Retro cars are all about reliving the glory days. You see alot more boomers than kids driving Mustangs because they can afford them and they mean something to them.
If GM is counting on 15 year olds to buy these things in 09, it's not going to happen.
Did you check out the MSN reliability study for a comparison?? What did you think???
I believe he was just responding to Andres' snide comment.
It's like if you used to go the the dry cleaner on Green Street. He was OK but he was only open until 7 and one time he damaged your shirt. He took care of it but did so begrudgingly. So a friend tells you that the dry cleaner over on Oak Street is great and open until 8. You start going there and are pleased but the next time you drive up Green, the old guy has a sign that says now open until 8. Is that going to get you to come back????
Also, I have friends, co-workers (or former co-workers) in Atlanta, Melbourne (the one in Florida), LA and Las Vegas so it's not like my sampling pool is regional-biased. However, none of them will say anything bad about GM (or domestics in this case) but the question always is: Why would I buy_____________(insert domestic model) when I can get____________(insert the import competitor) for not much more?
That's why I kept saying that just being "competitive" is no longer good enough for GM if they want to win over the young crowd. They need products that are classing leading in almost all aspects at a competitive price. I know this is asking a lot and seems rather unfair but since they bombed their own reputation back in the 80s and early 90s they'll just have to work double time to dig themselves out of the hole and exploring a new customer base. If one day history repeats itself that Toyota/Honda becomes the GM of 80s then they'll have to do the same thing. This is no longer domestics vs. imports, it's more like good reputation/track record vs. shaky reputation/track record.
Actually, I'm basically saying the opposite. I'm not OK with any problems. However, if there is ONE single (read 1) issue to deal with under warranty, then that is forgiveable given that there aren't 100 other minor warranty visits to make.
Therefore, one major problem is only forgiveable if the car hasn't had to go back into a "responsive no fuss" shop fifty times already.
Got it?
As well it should be until CR burns them like I'm sure some domestic make and model already has. Until CR recommends a car to them that turns out to be a lemon, then there is no reason to trust any other source other than CR.
GM's big problem is styling and the interiors. GM's worst mistake in the last decade was to let Volvo get by them. Saab? Not worth a dime. Volvo? GM needed Volvo's engineers for their interiors and asthetics badly. Imagine if your typical Chevrolet looked half as nice as a S80. GM should be trying to get those designers at Audi and Volvo to jump ship at any cost, because they make incredible interiors. Audi makes pretty poor cars, but their interiors are incredible(well, the cupholders aside - ack!)
Mechanically, they are fine - I'd rate GM as equivalent to Mitsubishi or Nissan with a few Lexus and Honda quality gems here and there. At least mechanically. But, it's still like buying a Lexus with a Ford interior. We need the days when a trim level meant a major interior change. Not just some fake wood and leatherette thrown in, but real changes. And, of course, their best engine only for a line. The Buick Lucerne? No 3800 engine. Tough - buy the best they make or go elsewhere. The G6? 3.9L only(or the 3.6VVT) - the puny base engine, put that in an Cobalt or something but leave it out of the better cars.
Lexus, otoh, yep - one model, one engine and interior choice. The best they offer. They put their best foot forward as it were and it shows.
P.S. GM does have an ace in the hole they need to use NOW - shoot, yesterday. RWD. Honda and Toyota will never go RWD for their smaller cars, since it would kill them in Japan, which is still their primary market. GM can and it would obliterate the competition, since RWD cars as a rule handle better and are more fun to drive.(and stability control and the like pretty much gets rid of the negatives, leaving only performance in snow as a real difference)
By Bernard Simon
Aug. 13, 2007
General Motors may allow buyers of its Chevy Volt electric car to rent the vehicle's battery as a way of pricing the vehicle at a comparable level to a traditional, petrol-driven family saloon.
The Volt is emerging as one of the most crucial vehicles in GM's history. Failure would be a deep embarrassment after the fanfare surrounding its development. But success could propel GM past Toyota as a pioneer in alternative energy vehicles. GM has assigned 150 engineers to the project.
The Detroit carmaker aims to launch the Volt by 2010. The battery would give a range of 40 miles and maintain full performance for at least 10 years. It would be recharged either by the car's small combustion engine or from a normal electrical point.
Battery rentals would helpful GM's goal of giving the Volt a wider appeal than the petrol-electric hybrid vehicles now on the road. Noting that the Volt will be marketed under GM?s global, mass-market Chevrolet brand, Frank Weber, the carmaker's chief engineer, said that it "needs to be affordable to the buyer of a normal mid-sized car".
Bob Lutz, GM's vice-chairman, said the Volt would be produced in both left- and right-hand drive versions. GM has so far shown a concept saloon model, but plans to unveil a second design at the Frankfurt car show next month. Mr. Lutz said: "We see it being sold round the world."
GM's confidence contrasts with reports that Toyota has delayed the launch of new hybrid models because of concerns about battery safety.
Justin Ward, a Toyota engineer, told a research conference last week that lithium-ion battery technology "hasn't proven that it's ready for the automotive market yet".
The two companies are pursuing different lithium-ion chemistries. Toyota uses nickel cobalt aluminum oxide, while GM has turned to a newer nano-phosphate technology.
GM expects to start testing batteries in October. Ric Fulop, co-founder of A123Systems, one of three companies developing the Volt's battery pack, said a big challenge was to maintain temperatures throughout the battery once it was in a vehicle.
GM's goal is to price the Volt, excluding battery, at about the same level as its Chevrolet Malibu saloon.
Mr. Weber estimates that an average Volt owner would spend about $25 (£12) a month on petrol, against $145 for a traditional Malibu. The difference could be used on battery rental payments, giving a similar total cost.
Tundra On Pace to Make Sales Goals
Comments from the article:
"We're on pace right now," Jim Lentz, executive vice president of Toyota's U.S. sales unit, said in an interview in Traverse City, at the auto industry's 2007 Management Briefing Seminars. "We're spending the incentives necessary, given the economics, given a down market, to sell that 200,000 vehicles..."
Toyota, which doesn't disclose incentive spending by model, disputes Edmunds.com's estimate that it put $6,861 last month on each Tundra. Toyota sold 23,150 Tundras in July, a monthly record for the model...
Haven't been paying attention but that $6.8K estimate is a lot of cash. How does this compare to GM's incentives?
$3500 or 0% financing
Edmunds Revises Toyota Incentives Estimate
Tundra rebates are at 2500 bucks "max rebate cash".
link title
Wow, Escalades are at 6500 off in my area and STS models are at 8000 bucks off (including V-models)!
Nah, probably not.
Wow, that about matches the incentives local Toyota dealers here are pushing for SUVs and the Sienna. Ok, maybe slightly higher but you get the point. $7k on a Sequoia is still a lot of incentive money.
within 3 months GM will have 5 hybrids for sale. More than Honda, Nissan and Ford. Guess you missed that. The only company GM is trailing in this arena is Toyota.
actually I dont, most mustang drivers I see are under 40. I rarely see Boomers behind the wheel. My point is that GM has a car that appeals to FUTURE buyers, not just 55 year olds. SUre most people in your age range might think the Camry is "hot" because of its resale value, but I dont think 20 year olds have the same love for Toyota as their parents. Toyota is pretty much lame to most younger people which is why Scion was created.
Totally agree. Is GM putting enough focus on the entry-level vehicles that these people are likely to be buying to win new customers for life? This is why even if the larger vehicles are more profitable, it is very important to have competitive offerings at entry level.
They're looking at the redesigned Highlander, but if I can give him a heads up about 8 grand off of Siennas, he may jump on it. It's certainly worth the trip. hell, up here, the deals aren't nearly as rich, more like $750 C.B.
Thanks in advance
we have been over this nonsense many times. The whole concept of delivering a "much better" car than Toyota or Honda for less money is a joke, especially considering GM's legacy costs. Its not going to happen. GM has to go for value, performance and style. Its pretty apparent they are better and styling a car than Honda or Toyota and that is going to be key in the future since quality is going to be so close.
As for appealing to young people, it depends on what type. I think higher class, higher income people who are surrounded by similar people and are very style conscious are not going to buy domestic, period. Many of these people came from import only households and have been drilled with the "american is bad, Japanese is perfect" by their parents. Those who want to mimic their parents taste will keep on buying foreign. I think there is another group of people who buy foreign based on mileage and "greeness" but dont really have brand loyalty. Then there are those who want to be different and really arent enamored with Japanese cars. I would be in that category. To me style, performance and handling are paramount, not resale value. I dont car what the resale value of a Camry is because I'm too young to be driving one. The new camry (finally) has acceptable peformance but its still boring and wimpy looking. GM is going to have several vehicles that have no Asian counterparts such as the Camaro and Tahoe hybrid, that is where they can make up some ground. There will be no import competitor so it will be hard for people to say "why dont I just get the ______ instead for slightly more money".
I am in Philadelphia. I would guess most dealers up here are selling Siennas for 5k off.
"My buddy is looking for a replacement for his 03' Suburban. Apparently 12mpg and "routine" lol steering shaft replacments have worn him and his wife out... "
Nice one! Yeah rountine shaft replacements, thats the norm for american vehicles. As for 12mpg, what did he think he was going to get? Tell him to try the Sequoia, I think it gets 13mpg since its a Toyota and they are all efficient.
I dont think GM needs any Volvo designers. Why dont you check out some of their recent efforts? Audi interiors are nice, but at this point they are all derivative and the compeition is catching up. GM is doing fine with interiors on its recent models like Enclave, Acadia, Vue, CTS, etc.
Styling? Are you serious? compared to what? For an example of each company's latest and greatest compare the Acadia/Enclave to the Highlander. The GM SUvs are styling and expensive looking while the Higlander is simply an expanded RAV4 with no original styling cues. The new Toyota truck grille is ugly and dull. Right now GM is out-styling Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Hyundai, Chrysler, etc.
Therefore, one major problem is only forgiveable if the car hasn't had to go back into a "responsive no fuss" shop fifty times already.
Got it? "
oh well than you wouldnt find his 3 acceptable since its hard quite a few problems as well as lackluster dealer service when it comes to owning up to them. Interesting since the car was engineered and made in Japan. I know, all you import car statements ONLY apply to Toyota and Honda, thats usually the cop out excuse I get when bringing up problems with other Japanese cars.
"Routine steering" shafts are not the norm for American vehicles. He was a recent service manager at a NH GMC/P/B dealership and the "routine" about it was that it has been replaced 3 times in 40k miles. Doesn't cost him a dime for the parts, just the labor. Like your typical 15,000 mile "routine service".
The Sienna gets much better mileage than either the Sequoia or his "Bourbon". The fear of ever increasing fuel costs has driven a lot of us N.E. folks to more fuel efficient vehicles. Those full size BOF utes are a dying breed up here, nobody needs them unless you own a boat/trailer or want to take your house for a spin around the block...
its become painfully apparent you dont read or understand much of what is being stated here. Someone just posted a few days ago that his ownership experiences have been totally contradictory to CR's ratings in terms of owning foreign and domestic vehicles. In addition we listed numerous reasons why CR's data is compromised and unacceptable if one wants objective results. These reasons have been documented by many sources and were not just made up by people with a grudge.
As my brother about CR's accuracy as relates to the 3.
Trust me, one or two problematic foreign cars is NOT going to make a import lover question foreign quality or question CR's methods. They will just write it off as an anomaly and trade in for another foreign car. People in the Camry forum who got fed up with their '07s were talking about trading them in for other Toyotas. COuld you imagine someone doing that with a Checy with a bad tranny? Cars are becoming like political parties in that objectivity is out the window. As we have seen in recent years, some die hard partisans are INCAPABLE of rendering objective evaluations of a politician of their party. There are tons of journalists and others who will defend this president (or any other with a bad track record) no matter what. Same thing with cars, it really doesnt matter what Toyota does wrong to some people. They will swear by Toyota and trash domestic products (due to an experience in the 80s) no matter what.
first of all I live in the NE so you dont have to tell me what "we" are driving. Lots of people continue to buy and own SUVs as well as gas guzzling large luxury cars. Give me a brake. If you can afford a $600 a month payment you can afford the gas, its that simple. Some, like me, cant afford either and thus would never have owned an SUV in the first place.
I assure you in the Delaware Valley the SUV is alive and well. Crossover, BOF, or whatever, they are all inefficient and people are still buying them. Import lovers never actually get into mileage figures when talking about how BOFs are dying out and "efficient" crossovers are taking over. Most crossovers get about 3mpg better mileage than a Tahoe or Expedition or Armada. Hardly a huge jump in efficiency and still a guzzler compared to a four cylinder car, much less a hybrid.
Or like me.... they are rebellious and go against the grain of their parents, and get their first car to be a domestic. Then, when you painfully learn the lesson of why "domestics are bad," you learn your lesson (through financial hits, time wasting hits, and loss of vehicle hits, and move onto to reliable vehicles ONLY (imports are safe bets).
This is by FAR the biggest group "lost customers" the big 3 have to try and win back.
"I assure you in the Delaware Valley the SUV is alive and well.
Good for Deleware valley. Your gas prices are lower aren't they?
Crossover, BOF, or whatever, they are all inefficient and people are still buying them.
Yes, but crossovers are still more efficient than BOF
Import lovers...
Where? I like all makes from any country. There are just less domestics that I like.
never actually get into mileage figures when talking about how BOFs are dying out and "efficient" crossovers are taking over.
Crossovers are more efficient, are they not? Are we lying?
Most crossovers get about 3mpg better mileage than a Tahoe or Expedition or Armada. Hardly a huge jump in efficiency and still a guzzler
Yup, but a big enough jump to matter. You're thinking too broadly, 3mpg might as well be 10mpg. Spending 65 bucks (Like I spend on my MDX) and 100 bucks per fillup wears on you after a while. And yes, I am aware that the capacity of my Acura is 18 gallons while the Tahoe, Suburban, whatever is over 30. Still, phsycologically, the cost is what you see, not the mileage. Hey, maybe those new GM hybrids should come with 18 gallon tanks...
People are realizing that crossovers are giving you like 90% of the utitily of the big-uns.
Some, like me, cant afford either and thus would never have owned an SUV in the first place.
So you understand the dilema folks are having when they bought SUV's before the price hikes. It's like being stuck with a million dollar McMansion in the midst of a housing crisis and a crumbling economy. Sure, it's nice and fancy, but you lose your job and that house isn't going to just go away... Same with those folks driving McBurbans like my buddy is.
Not so much an excuse as the truth and reality. Honda and Toyota (Acura & Lexus) are on their own pedestel of reliability, with everyone else far behind. Sure, there are a few model exceptions here and there but few and far between. Honda and Toyota have consistently left everyone else in the dust as far as durability is concerned, including the other Japanese makes (Nissan, Mazda, Suzuki, Izuzu, Mitsubishi), let alone the domestics, now that's another league all together.
You can make fun of California all you want but it only shows what'll happen when the imports have strong dealership networks. The imports dealership number will no doubt be increasing in the Midwest. By then GM better be hoping they have something else going for them besides the current "style, value and performance". Scary, huh?
One reason I won't ever buy a Mazda (currently) is because they've recently lowered their warranty length/mileage and all the while everyone else's is increasing (including Honda and Toyota's powertrain warranties). That shows me desperation on Mazda's part to be associated with Honda and Toyota, but they haven't EARNED that reputation to be lowering their warranty.
Then that ONE person should not listen or follow CR. Let the other Million out of One Million and one follow CR as they should; it's been tremendously accurate and truthful for them.
I don't see any reason why someone would swear off all the domestics after a troublesome car but be willing to try another model of the imports after a troublesome import. There is no reason someone would swear off anyone faster than the other unless:
1. The troublesome domestic was 100X worse than their most troublesome of imports...
2. They got multiple bad domestics and/or never had a good one.
3. They got multiple great imports before hitting a single bad apple import.
4. The domestic company treated them poorly or didn't stand behind their product whatsoever.
5. The import company went out of it's way to satisfy them.
Tundra rebates are at 2500 bucks "max rebate cash".
link title
Wow, Escalades are at 6500 off in my area and STS models are at 8000 bucks off (including V-models)!
Please, I know you really want to downgrade GM but lets keep the facts correct (OK you are correct but stretching the truth by not stating all the facts).
Current silverado is up to $3500 and the classic is $3000 for a non HD. This is for '07's which is almost the past model year. So your numbers are pretty correct.
However '07 Escalades are at $3000 with the year old '06 one at $6500.
Tundras are up to $3000 for '07's
Yeah... those legacy costs aren't anybody's problem but theirs
"Its pretty apparent they are better and styling a car than Honda or Toyota"
Apparent to you, Chet and 1 of the Andres. From our lively discussions, you can tell that the jury is far from in on that.
I never said a Camry was hot, but resale value does matter to some.