General Motors discussions

anythngbutgm

While your list of american cars you would drive is nonexistent I would drive the TL, 2009 Mazda 6, G35 (my favorite Asian car), Mazda 3, ES350 (if I was 60) and maybe even Altima SE.

Why do you assume those who have criticisms of GM or any other domestic make for that matter are those who would never own an American car? Is it really that Black and white?

I mean it's good to see you have some subjective opinion outside the world of GM, but why do you assume those on the other side of the fence are nothing but "haters"? Jeeze man, this is constructive criticism we're talking here, not "I love everything Japan, I hate America!". I don't see anywhere in the past few hundred posts where anyone has just come out and said "I will never buy American" or "I'll never buy GM" or whatever preconceived notion you have about posters who are not praising every single GM make, model, decision, Bob Lutz rant, whatever.

Hell, even Plekto (If he doesn't mind me using his example...) has been positive about the Buick Lucerne being a bargain Mercedes and you've got him on your "hit list"...

bumpy

The cars my friends and I drove back in high school in the early 1990s:

1980 Citation
87 Excel
92 Celica
90ish Mazda pickup
mid-80s Crown Vic
mid-70s C-10
mid-60s F-150
early-80s Malibu wagon
early-80s Rabbit
mid-80s Sirocco
early-80s D-50 pickup
mid-80s Cavalier
early-80s Mustang 4-cyl
mid-70s Firebird
92 Corsica (for a month before she wrecked it)

carguy58

"so the Aura is underwhelming to you but he camry is a "big step up" for Toyota? I dont get that at all."

I didn't say the Aura was underwhelming you said that I did not. Yeah the new Camry is a big step up for Toyota because we have pervious generations of Camry's to compare it too looks wise(the 07 Camry) and the Aura has been around for what only a year now in the states?

"The Aura isnt revolutionary but its at least as daring."

I would call the 02 Nissan Altima and 03 Mazda 6 daring but not the Aura no way.

"Toyota has set the bar so low that they are getting undue credit for the Camry."

I think you made that point clear in a previous post.

"The Aura isnt revolutionary but its at least as daring and different at the '07 Camry and Saturn doesnt exactly have a great reputation for styling."

Your making the Aura sound like its the Altima or Mazda 6 that debut 4-5 years ago(in terms of looks)and its not at least not in my opinion.

gsemike

"Not what I said and that doesn't mean I said GM has no faults which is what you suggested."

I never suggested that. I said that you're biased and often hysterical.

"I said that and it proves nothing. The car's width isnt a major issue for most people, its only 1-2 inches narrower than other cars in this class."

That's why it's flying off of the lots. I was a potential ocnquest for Saturn and I crossed it off the list. That G6, Aura, Malibu platform in uncompetitive because of the width.

"If you want a wider midsize car GM does make the Impala and Lacross"

I want a midsize car that can hold 5, not a full size car. The Altima and Accord fit that bill. That's why they sell so well.

"acceptable for daily reliable transportation"

We have different standards. The General appreciates you setting the bar low. What I want is trouble free motoring for years. That's what I've gotten from Honda and Nissan. I had first hand experience with GM from my family member and none of them have had as good an experience as I have.

carguy58

"what is Toyota or Honda's advantage? The koreans are designing Toyota look alike cars for thousands less and giving you a rock solid warranty to put your mind at ease."

Well the Koreans don;t have the reputation for "reliability" that Toyota and Honda have thus thats why they have to offer those long warranty's to nab customrs who would buy Honda or Toyota. I will say I would take a look at the Hyundai Santa Fe if I was in the market for that kinda car/truck even without Hyundai's long warranty because the 07 Santa FE really impressed at an auto show that I was at last year.

As for the Koreans they better be careful about offering cars that look like Toyota's because Mazda and Nissan did that(or tried too)in the mid or late 90's and those companies almost went under because they tried to be Toyota.

carguy58

"That's why it's flying off of the lots. I was a potential ocnquest for Saturn and I crossed it off the list. That G6, Aura, Malibu platform in uncompetitive because of the width."

So what about the Impala it should have more witdth than anything on the G6/Malibu/Aura platform? What about the 08 Malibu will that be on a different platform than the Aura or G6 if so you can take a look at the 08 Malibu and maybe i will offer more width than the Aura does.

louiswei

The cars my friends and I drive now (we are all around mid 20's):

Lexus IS350
Audi A4 1.8T Quattro
Nissan Pathfinder
GMC Sierra
Chevy Silverado
Chrysler PT Cruiser
Honda Accord
Infiniti G35
Toyota RAV4
Mazda 6
Porsche Boxster S
Lexus GS300
MB C230
BMW 325i
Toyota Avalon

louiswei

GM's styling offensive? I'll give you my take:

CTS: The original is definitely a styling offensive, the 08' is just a evolutionary version of the previous gen.

Malibu: The front facsia looks like a bloated Cobalt. From the side it looks like an Acura TL and the tail is lifted directly from the Mitsu Diamante.

Aura: Falls in the same category as the Camry, that's want to be a little bit stylish but not over the top to offend its core customer base.

Sky/Solstice: Yes, definitely styling offensive. The Sky is probably one of the best looking roasters on the road.

'08 STS: What's the difference from the '07 except that bloated nose?

louiswei

You guys want design risk from Toyota, I'll give you the biggest design risk from Toyota:

The Prius.

Top that!

chuckhoy

You guys want design risk from Toyota, I'll give you the biggest design risk from Toyota:

The Prius.

Top that!

Two can play at that game.

Aztek was probably the biggest styling risk (and subsequent flop) in recent decades. Nothing will top that. They were offensive about the offensive. :P

louiswei

Yes, but there is a difference between Aztek and Prius:

Aztek: Flop
Prius: Success

Which tells us one thing, that's design risk is not always a good thing, especially for hot sellers like Camry and Accord. The best example of a hot seller was doomed because of design risk is the Taurus. It goes from the best midsizer to rental queen all because of the miscalculated design risk.

fintail

I just got back from Vegas, which is of course rental car heaven. I noticed quite a few rental Enclaves, as well as SS trimmed Montes and Impalas in the fleets. Is this a move by GM to improve some perception?

Lots of odd rentals there...Avalon, Accord, I had an Audi A6.

louiswei

The last 5 times in Vegas I've rented each of the following:

Toyota Camry SE
Nissan 350Z
Volvo S80
Ford Mustang
Audi A4

All of them from Hertz.

62vetteefp

Las Vegas!! Yes GM has upped the cars going to rentals. They finally got the hint that some people actually make an opinion up on the cars they drive on business/vacation. (oh some knew it and snuck them in like the loaded Regals) Also GM uses rentals for early testing of new vehicles to get more miles quickly on them. The rental companies like them because they can get a bit of a premium from those who want to drive the latest thing.

chuckhoy

Exactly why I will never own a Taurus. The rental ones I had in St. Louis were abysmal. If I was given a choice between driving a Taurus and riding a mule I would inquire about the price of oats...

m1miata

Problem with the Solstice/Sky is while the styling is very interesting, the car is not. The top is harder to use than a Miata, the doors are chin high, the arm rest doesn't extend back enough to be of use, and is slanted wrong, there is not only no roll bar, there is no place for one, they front has no place for a license plate, there is little trunk, and most seem to have a jacked up price, it could use some side air bags, and maybe a diet, as it appears heavier than the competition. Other than that, she's ready for prime time.

Loren

m1miata

Style wise, both Aura and Camry suffer a bit from too tall door syndrome. The Camry bump on the nose is a bit odd and appears to be more obvious with different colors. Aura has a better use of bling (formally called chrome). As far as new, or interesting, I would say equally so. Interior I would say goes to Aura for better fit, and finish. New Malibu, from the photos, looks to be much more interesting an interior. All three score in the mid range, as in yea, attractive enough by today's standards, and sort of pleasing. If GM could score some hits, like the late 60's then I would say a 10 car would be very impressive. As is, the "all the rest" styling leave most of these cars as somewhat stylish, pleasing enough, and looking for the other features of the car, rather than jaw dropping good looks. The Aura and Camry I would say score in that 6 out of 10 range.

I must say the HHR looks like a new car, though it would sold better coming out before the PT. It is a New car however. Most of the rest, are all the rest.

Loren

fintail

Probably a very good strategy. There were still more basic cars, but also the higher line models. I know some carrier there rents CTS as well.

fintail

I went through Hertz as well, and got a decent deal. I was going to get the S80, but I found I could get an A6 for like $5 more/day, so I went for it.

I liked it so much I took a pic of it

xrunner2

Audi body styling ok, except for goofy looking grille which is used in most of their models. Think the A8 model adds grotesque looking vertical bars to the grille. GM does much better job in general in designing front ends in last couple years.

m1miata

They look OK. Not sure about the big opening in the front, more becoming on a Dodge truck, but that's OK. All the new cars are starting to blend into one, aren't they? They took the different looking TT and have changed the simple arch look - why. What next, they will screw with CTS, oh doh!

Loren

andres3

Thanks, I really did a lot of research and think about my first car selection. As I've said before, the Neon wasn't a bad choice except for that it wasn't designed to run for more than about 3 years or 36,000 miles. And even in the first 3 years, it was nothing to write home about reliability wise.

The problem with domestics is that it is hit and miss. Maybe I'd be a big 3 (or at least GM supporter) if my first car was a '68 Buick Special Deluxe (then again maybe not, as I'm used to thinking of 80 year olds in Buicks; what's the 0-60 time and MPG on that??? I couldn't have afforded something that wasn't economical with fuel; as the parents helped out with the car payments and insurance costs, but there was no subsistance provided for gas :P

Something tells me if I had chosen the Cavalier instead of the Neon I'd probably still be in the same boat, but maybe to a slightly lesser degree.

Also, I was warned, and still took the chance on a first year car first year design. However, I did the same thing with the '03 Accord without a worry, as there was nothing to worry about, and that perception came true (even with the V6 tranny debacle; I was never left stranded, nor footing the bill).

chetj

far behind in reliabilty...far behind?...everyone else...a new level of exaggeration...in the auto industry there isnt a big difference in any major car company when it come to reliability...just keep drinking the toyota kool aid while the rest of us save money

chetj

cavaliers are workhorses...we cant help you bought a early neon...youre the only who didnt know they sucked

m1miata

Not true, I did consider American cars.

And on the second point, what is so hard for you to understand that they are basing it on logic. One bad car does not mean the whole world full of Japan makes are bad. Going by the numbers, over three decades, you are more likely to own a more reliable Japan car than a USA built one. Now you are saying they should have there memory erased? Look, there is some better stuff out there, and some will consider looking at this new "stuff." I looked at the new GM car and Ford car. I owned a Chrysler PT. This does not mean that I have had my memory erased, but rather that I am looking at current data and product on cars.
That said, I am not now interested in a Toyota offering, but it doesn't mean in the future, if they make a car which looks to tickle my fancy, I would not be interested. If the Camry is not my choice today, so what? I don't see myself sporting around in an Impala. Now a new styled, RWD, if not too large, is a maybe. A smaller car, in RWD like a Pontiac is a more probable. Make those awful too tall doors any higher and all new cars get scratched off the list.
Loren

lemko

The cars my friends and I drive now (we are all around late 30s early 40s):

Buick LaCrosse
Buick LeSabre
Buick Park Avenue
BMW 3-Series
Cadillac Brougham
Cadillac Seville STS
Cadillac DeVille
Chevrolet Caprice
Chevrolet Cavalier
Chevrolet Corvette
Chevrolet Impala
Chevrolet Trailblazer
Chrysler 300-C
Dodge Ram
Ford F-150
Ford Fusion
Honda Accord
Jeep Grand Cherokee
Lexus ES
Lexus RX
Mercedes-Benz E-Class
Mercedes-Benz S-Class
Mercury Montego
Pontiac Bonneville
Pontiac Montana
Plymouth Neon

m1miata

I owned the upscale Cavalier, the Achieva and it had more than its share of quirks, and trips to the dealership when brand new. I guess a Cavalier is better odds than is the Neon. Oh well, both are dead and gone. Anyone care to guess as to how the Sebring got to be one of the ugliest (IMHO) cars in America? The last model was smooth and pretty fine looking, as modern styling seems to be in the less class.

Loren

andres3

what is Toyota or Honda's advantage? The koreans are designing Toyota look alike cars for thousands less and giving you a rock solid warranty to put your mind at ease.

The warranties don't give you peace of mind or put your mind at ease. They might keep your wallet or pocket book at ease, but your mind, NO!

You're heart and mind will get fired up making numerous visits to the dealer and wasting time with warranty service, even if it is free financially, it is not free in terms of wasted time, heartache, gasoline, mileage, ect.

andre1969

Thanks, I really did a lot of research and think about my first car selection. As I've said before, the Neon wasn't a bad choice except for that it wasn't designed to run for more than about 3 years or 36,000 miles. And even in the first 3 years, it was nothing to write home about reliability wise.

At the time it was introduced, I thought the Neon was truly a breath of fresh air for small cars. At least, it looked good on paper. 2.0 4-cyl with 132 hp standard, at a time when many competing cars were barely breaking the 100 hp barrier. Adult-sized back seat that, IMO, made the thing a true 4-seater, where many small cars were basically 2-seaters with an upholstered package shelf in back. Good handling, decent price, seemed like a lot of car for the money.

Until they started breaking, that is.

Something tells me if I had chosen the Cavalier instead of the Neon I'd probably still be in the same boat, but maybe to a slightly lesser degree.

According to many road tests of the time, the redesigned 1995 Cavalier actually wasn't a bad car. Reliability-wise, it was a better car than the Neon. And by that time, the Ford Tempo was an outdated 11 year old platform about to be discontinued. The problem with the Cav was that it just didn't update quickly enough, and was soon left behind by the Japanese competition, and then the Ford Focus.

louiswei

...and apparently the Focus is following Cavalier's footsteps. Isn't it funny (or sad) that history kept repeating itself and us humans just don't learn.

:sick:

m1miata

What's wrong with Focus?

andres3

But the Cavalier is not dead, its just a Cobalt now, still starts with a C.

Now with the Neon, they have the Nitro, still starts with an N.... hahaha, okay, so the Caliber is a closer comparison.

louiswei

The Focus is still riding on the same platform when it was first introduced back in 2000 and apparently the major redesign won't come until 2011 or 2012. The current redesign for the 2008 model is just a huge facelift but the platform and powertrain still remained the same. Now tell me that doesn't sound familiar with what GM did with the Cavalier and Sunfire.

The even more sad part is that Ford could just bring in the Euro Focus as the 2008 but they opted not to. They settled on give it a new look and shove in the Sync then call it a day.

gsemike

Wow... you have alot of friends

andres3

Who knew Neons sucked in 1994? Dodge certainly didn't advertise them as "sucking." It was supposedly the BOLD NEW DODGE. All new stuff, engines, transmissions (well, not the auto), suspensions, blah blah blah.

I was thinking there is no way in this modern day and age (of the mid 90's) that a car could be "THAT BAD" reliability wise with "all-new" parts. My thinking was wrong. I realized my thinking was wrong in a year or two when the black dots started coming out in CR; when did you realize it?

andres3

I always smile when I'm driving down the road and see something from the Big 3 broken down on the side of the road.

I'm thinking "sucker!!!!! thinking you saved money buying that car.... wait till you get that tow truck bill.... followed by the mechanic's bill!" OUCH! :sick:

the cheap often ends up costing the most

anythngbutgm

I just remember the Neon commercials where the car would drive up to the camera shot and you'd see "Hi" at the top of the screen.

Kinda like being approached by Paris Hilton. She's says "Hi" you know it's best to probably run away from that, don't know what you could catch there...

stever

Yeah, but honestly, how often do you see a car broken down on the side of the road anymore?

m1miata

Yeap, the only Euro Focus we can buy is the Mazda3, said to be a good car. I owned a Miata, and it was pretty much bullet proof. The Miata group took many a run down back roads which are rough, yet not a one in the three years of runs I was on, ever stopped running. Some people in these Miata clubs own really old ones, with 100K to 200K miles on them and in some rarer cases, are still driving those into the 300K miles range. We are talking hitting high RPMs with a small engine, and driving on rough back roads, and these cars keep on ticking. I have taken a couple years off from sports cars, and may be ready to start playing again. Larger cars are pleasurable, but those sporting cars are the true feel young, and spirited runners. That said, some day I would consider collectors cars, like a Camaro, as those are great memories of an age of style, and prominence for cars, be it American or European.
Loren

louiswei

Well, Neon is not totally worthless, it's a pretty good rental car I think (had one for a week, $15.99 a day). Just like Paris Hilton may not be wife material (or even girlfriend) but she'll be a pretty good you-know-what...

:P

andre1969

Yeah, but honestly, how often do you see a car broken down on the side of the road anymore?

I'd have to say quite often, actually, considering how relatively little I drive (maybe 6000-7000 miles per year). To be fair, it's usually something at least 10 years old. And Japanese models seem to be just as frequent as domestics. Not trying to slam the Japanese, but it's just that they have such a strong presence in this area. Obviously, the more you build, the more you'll see broken down, over time.

Especially on a blazing hot day, I could probably drive from DC to Baltimore and back and see 4 or 5 broken down.

I remember one day, coming back from PA, I saw a broken down Intrepid and a broken down mid 80's Chevy pickup. I took it as an omen, considering I have one of each! :surprise:

andre1969

but she'll be a pretty good you-know-what...

A good what? Drunk driver? Is there anything else she's good at? :P

louiswei

The new Camara will be a hot collector's item 30, 40 years from now.

m1miata

Well that was then and this is now. The PT Cruiser seems to be reliable. That said, I am glad to have sold before the problems do arrive some five years from now and you have to pay for them to dive in three layers deep to find things under that narrow and tiny hood. But the car was delivered well screwed together, and NOTHING like the nightmares of the Neon.

Anyway, Neon is just a memory, and it is not a GM car so let it be. On to GM's, The Good, The Bad and the Ugly. :surprise: This transition time, as we get the freshened up and slightly shall we say new cars, is just buying time. GM make or break time, if all goes OK for year and half, is the 2009 year, when the 2010 NEW, well mostly new stuff arrives. Don't forget, GM is performing some magic elsewhere in the World, as sales overall are up, so don't write them off, in General anyway.
Loren

chuckhoy

I see them sometimes. It is usually a 20+ year old car or a van from the jurassic period. Not a minivan, a conversion van from the 70s. On the car front it is usually a mix of foreign and domestic. Since about 2/3 of the cars around here are domestic, it is not surprising that a lot of the stranded cars are domestic. I see plenty of ancient civics and corollas too.

m1miata

Well that could happen.

Personally the too tall doors, chop top, too large wheeled, taller / stubbier, too wide, and heavy look is not all that exciting. In some ways it looks pretty cool. Kinda in a cartoon character way. The '69 is right sized and represents all of which is style and grace. She is a wonderful filly. And NO, the Camaro was not built as a muscle car, but was indeed a pony car, which could also be a muscle car.

What is GOOD is that GM did not make a car too similar, as in the Mustang Replicar, with the cheap interior. I much prefer the '04. Camaro basic concept of design is very good, but the latest trends got into the mix and suddenly it got super-sized. They must stop letting McDonald's do the final designs, as they tend to want to super size every meal.
Loren

m1miata

And then you can add those trying to stretch the run to the next gas station.

just a thought,
Loren

stever

Ok, now how many of you can remember the last time your car stranded you somewhere?

cooterbfd

1989. My Regal's fuel pump let go. Still don't know if it was because I let it run REAL low on gas

62vetteefp

The Focus is still riding on the same platform when it was first introduced back in 2000 and apparently the major redesign won't come until 2011 or 2012. The current redesign for the 2008 model is just a huge facelift but the platform and powertrain still remained the same. Now tell me that doesn't sound familiar with what GM did with the Cavalier and Sunfire.

Just read an article that the Focus is the number one selling car for young buyers.