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Why do you assume those who have criticisms of GM or any other domestic make for that matter are those who would never own an American car? Is it really that Black and white?
I mean it's good to see you have some subjective opinion outside the world of GM, but why do you assume those on the other side of the fence are nothing but "haters"? Jeeze man, this is constructive criticism we're talking here, not "I love everything Japan, I hate America!". I don't see anywhere in the past few hundred posts where anyone has just come out and said "I will never buy American" or "I'll never buy GM" or whatever preconceived notion you have about posters who are not praising every single GM make, model, decision, Bob Lutz rant, whatever.
Hell, even Plekto (If he doesn't mind me using his example...) has been positive about the Buick Lucerne being a bargain Mercedes and you've got him on your "hit list"...
1980 Citation
87 Excel
92 Celica
90ish Mazda pickup
mid-80s Crown Vic
mid-70s C-10
mid-60s F-150
early-80s Malibu wagon
early-80s Rabbit
mid-80s Sirocco
early-80s D-50 pickup
mid-80s Cavalier
early-80s Mustang 4-cyl
mid-70s Firebird
92 Corsica (for a month before she wrecked it)
I didn't say the Aura was underwhelming you said that I did not. Yeah the new Camry is a big step up for Toyota because we have pervious generations of Camry's to compare it too looks wise(the 07 Camry) and the Aura has been around for what only a year now in the states?
"The Aura isnt revolutionary but its at least as daring."
I would call the 02 Nissan Altima and 03 Mazda 6 daring but not the Aura no way.
"Toyota has set the bar so low that they are getting undue credit for the Camry."
I think you made that point clear in a previous post.
"The Aura isnt revolutionary but its at least as daring and different at the '07 Camry and Saturn doesnt exactly have a great reputation for styling."
Your making the Aura sound like its the Altima or Mazda 6 that debut 4-5 years ago(in terms of looks)and its not at least not in my opinion.
I never suggested that. I said that you're biased and often hysterical.
"I said that and it proves nothing. The car's width isnt a major issue for most people, its only 1-2 inches narrower than other cars in this class."
That's why it's flying off of the lots. I was a potential ocnquest for Saturn and I crossed it off the list. That G6, Aura, Malibu platform in uncompetitive because of the width.
"If you want a wider midsize car GM does make the Impala and Lacross"
I want a midsize car that can hold 5, not a full size car. The Altima and Accord fit that bill. That's why they sell so well.
"acceptable for daily reliable transportation"
We have different standards. The General appreciates you setting the bar low. What I want is trouble free motoring for years. That's what I've gotten from Honda and Nissan. I had first hand experience with GM from my family member and none of them have had as good an experience as I have.
Well the Koreans don;t have the reputation for "reliability" that Toyota and Honda have thus thats why they have to offer those long warranty's to nab customrs who would buy Honda or Toyota. I will say I would take a look at the Hyundai Santa Fe if I was in the market for that kinda car/truck even without Hyundai's long warranty because the 07 Santa FE really impressed at an auto show that I was at last year.
As for the Koreans they better be careful about offering cars that look like Toyota's because Mazda and Nissan did that(or tried too)in the mid or late 90's and those companies almost went under because they tried to be Toyota.
So what about the Impala it should have more witdth than anything on the G6/Malibu/Aura platform? What about the 08 Malibu will that be on a different platform than the Aura or G6 if so you can take a look at the 08 Malibu and maybe i will offer more width than the Aura does.
Lexus IS350
Audi A4 1.8T Quattro
Nissan Pathfinder
GMC Sierra
Chevy Silverado
Chrysler PT Cruiser
Honda Accord
Infiniti G35
Toyota RAV4
Mazda 6
Porsche Boxster S
Lexus GS300
MB C230
BMW 325i
Toyota Avalon
CTS: The original is definitely a styling offensive, the 08' is just a evolutionary version of the previous gen.
Malibu: The front facsia looks like a bloated Cobalt. From the side it looks like an Acura TL and the tail is lifted directly from the Mitsu Diamante.
Aura: Falls in the same category as the Camry, that's want to be a little bit stylish but not over the top to offend its core customer base.
Sky/Solstice: Yes, definitely styling offensive. The Sky is probably one of the best looking roasters on the road.
'08 STS: What's the difference from the '07 except that bloated nose?
The Prius.
Top that!
The Prius.
Top that!
Two can play at that game.
Aztek was probably the biggest styling risk (and subsequent flop) in recent decades. Nothing will top that. They were offensive about the offensive. :P
Aztek: Flop
Prius: Success
Which tells us one thing, that's design risk is not always a good thing, especially for hot sellers like Camry and Accord. The best example of a hot seller was doomed because of design risk is the Taurus. It goes from the best midsizer to rental queen all because of the miscalculated design risk.
Lots of odd rentals there...Avalon, Accord, I had an Audi A6.
Toyota Camry SE
Nissan 350Z
Volvo S80
Ford Mustang
Audi A4
All of them from Hertz.
Loren
I must say the HHR looks like a new car, though it would sold better coming out before the PT. It is a New car however. Most of the rest, are all the rest.
Loren
I liked it so much I took a pic of it
Loren
The problem with domestics is that it is hit and miss. Maybe I'd be a big 3 (or at least GM supporter) if my first car was a '68 Buick Special Deluxe (then again maybe not, as I'm used to thinking of 80 year olds in Buicks; what's the 0-60 time and MPG on that??? I couldn't have afforded something that wasn't economical with fuel; as the parents helped out with the car payments and insurance costs, but there was no subsistance provided for gas :P
Something tells me if I had chosen the Cavalier instead of the Neon I'd probably still be in the same boat, but maybe to a slightly lesser degree.
Also, I was warned, and still took the chance on a first year car first year design. However, I did the same thing with the '03 Accord without a worry, as there was nothing to worry about, and that perception came true (even with the V6 tranny debacle; I was never left stranded, nor footing the bill).
And on the second point, what is so hard for you to understand that they are basing it on logic. One bad car does not mean the whole world full of Japan makes are bad. Going by the numbers, over three decades, you are more likely to own a more reliable Japan car than a USA built one. Now you are saying they should have there memory erased? Look, there is some better stuff out there, and some will consider looking at this new "stuff." I looked at the new GM car and Ford car. I owned a Chrysler PT. This does not mean that I have had my memory erased, but rather that I am looking at current data and product on cars.
That said, I am not now interested in a Toyota offering, but it doesn't mean in the future, if they make a car which looks to tickle my fancy, I would not be interested. If the Camry is not my choice today, so what? I don't see myself sporting around in an Impala. Now a new styled, RWD, if not too large, is a maybe. A smaller car, in RWD like a Pontiac is a more probable. Make those awful too tall doors any higher and all new cars get scratched off the list.
Loren
Buick LaCrosse
Buick LeSabre
Buick Park Avenue
BMW 3-Series
Cadillac Brougham
Cadillac Seville STS
Cadillac DeVille
Chevrolet Caprice
Chevrolet Cavalier
Chevrolet Corvette
Chevrolet Impala
Chevrolet Trailblazer
Chrysler 300-C
Dodge Ram
Ford F-150
Ford Fusion
Honda Accord
Jeep Grand Cherokee
Lexus ES
Lexus RX
Mercedes-Benz E-Class
Mercedes-Benz S-Class
Mercury Montego
Pontiac Bonneville
Pontiac Montana
Plymouth Neon
Loren
The warranties don't give you peace of mind or put your mind at ease. They might keep your wallet or pocket book at ease, but your mind, NO!
You're heart and mind will get fired up making numerous visits to the dealer and wasting time with warranty service, even if it is free financially, it is not free in terms of wasted time, heartache, gasoline, mileage, ect.
At the time it was introduced, I thought the Neon was truly a breath of fresh air for small cars. At least, it looked good on paper. 2.0 4-cyl with 132 hp standard, at a time when many competing cars were barely breaking the 100 hp barrier. Adult-sized back seat that, IMO, made the thing a true 4-seater, where many small cars were basically 2-seaters with an upholstered package shelf in back. Good handling, decent price, seemed like a lot of car for the money.
Until they started breaking, that is.
Something tells me if I had chosen the Cavalier instead of the Neon I'd probably still be in the same boat, but maybe to a slightly lesser degree.
According to many road tests of the time, the redesigned 1995 Cavalier actually wasn't a bad car. Reliability-wise, it was a better car than the Neon. And by that time, the Ford Tempo was an outdated 11 year old platform about to be discontinued. The problem with the Cav was that it just didn't update quickly enough, and was soon left behind by the Japanese competition, and then the Ford Focus.
:sick:
Now with the Neon, they have the Nitro, still starts with an N.... hahaha, okay, so the Caliber is a closer comparison.
The even more sad part is that Ford could just bring in the Euro Focus as the 2008 but they opted not to. They settled on give it a new look and shove in the Sync then call it a day.
I was thinking there is no way in this modern day and age (of the mid 90's) that a car could be "THAT BAD" reliability wise with "all-new" parts. My thinking was wrong. I realized my thinking was wrong in a year or two when the black dots started coming out in CR; when did you realize it?
I'm thinking "sucker!!!!! thinking you saved money buying that car.... wait till you get that tow truck bill.... followed by the mechanic's bill!" OUCH! :sick:
the cheap often ends up costing the most
Kinda like being approached by Paris Hilton. She's says "Hi" you know it's best to probably run away from that, don't know what you could catch there...
Loren
:P
I'd have to say quite often, actually, considering how relatively little I drive (maybe 6000-7000 miles per year). To be fair, it's usually something at least 10 years old. And Japanese models seem to be just as frequent as domestics. Not trying to slam the Japanese, but it's just that they have such a strong presence in this area. Obviously, the more you build, the more you'll see broken down, over time.
Especially on a blazing hot day, I could probably drive from DC to Baltimore and back and see 4 or 5 broken down.
I remember one day, coming back from PA, I saw a broken down Intrepid and a broken down mid 80's Chevy pickup. I took it as an omen, considering I have one of each! :surprise:
A good what? Drunk driver? Is there anything else she's good at? :P
Anyway, Neon is just a memory, and it is not a GM car so let it be. On to GM's, The Good, The Bad and the Ugly. :surprise: This transition time, as we get the freshened up and slightly shall we say new cars, is just buying time. GM make or break time, if all goes OK for year and half, is the 2009 year, when the 2010 NEW, well mostly new stuff arrives. Don't forget, GM is performing some magic elsewhere in the World, as sales overall are up, so don't write them off, in General anyway.
Loren
Personally the too tall doors, chop top, too large wheeled, taller / stubbier, too wide, and heavy look is not all that exciting. In some ways it looks pretty cool. Kinda in a cartoon character way. The '69 is right sized and represents all of which is style and grace. She is a wonderful filly. And NO, the Camaro was not built as a muscle car, but was indeed a pony car, which could also be a muscle car.
What is GOOD is that GM did not make a car too similar, as in the Mustang Replicar, with the cheap interior. I much prefer the '04. Camaro basic concept of design is very good, but the latest trends got into the mix and suddenly it got super-sized. They must stop letting McDonald's do the final designs, as they tend to want to super size every meal.
Loren
just a thought,
Loren
Just read an article that the Focus is the number one selling car for young buyers.