General Motors discussions

chuckhoy

we have been over this nonsense many times. The whole concept of delivering a "much better" car than Toyota or Honda for less money is a joke, especially considering GM's legacy costs. Its not going to happen. GM has to go for value, performance and style. Its pretty apparent they are better and styling a car than Honda or Toyota and that is going to be key in the future since quality is going to be so close.

I am surprised that you are willing to let GM throw in the towel like that. That is like saying that the Devil Rays don't beat the Yankees very often so they should just forefit the games. :confuse: That is an awful state of mind to be in. Personally, I don't see that there is a big gap in the quality/reliabity of GM versus Honda and Toyota and especially Nissan. Why can't they leapfrog them? What if the Prius turns out to need a battery replacement after 7 years and the engine does not last long due to all the starting and stopping and is called clunker for it? It does not take a whole lot for the fickle car-buying public to turn on a manufacturer.

The first car I ever owned outright was an old Olds Delta 88 that my dad gave me about 12 years ago. It was a pretty loaded up 88 to boot. If you compare the quality and reliabilty of that car to my new Outlook ther eis no comparison. The Outlook is lightyears ahead of the Olds. Why can't that kind of improvement be sustained?

nvbanker

Totally agree. Is GM putting enough focus on the entry-level vehicles that these people are likely to be buying to win new customers for life? This is why even if the larger vehicles are more profitable, it is very important to have competitive offerings at entry level.

The thing is though - they don't. While they were sleeping, the Koreans ran ahead of them too - and now that they're really trying to put quality on the road, and have made great strides, BTW - they still are behind Hyundai, and may never overtake them, let alone Honda....

I purchased two cars last Friday at auction - an 06 Saturn Ion, and an 06 Hyundai Elantra. While the Saturn wins on style and looks certainly, and the cabin was nicely appointed with good looking stuff finally - and it did run "well" - in back to back runs along the same roads and freeways, the Hyundai was a stronger performer. Other than style and looks, the Saturn was superior in no way. The Hyundai was faster, quieter, handled better and outperformed the Saturn easily....not that the Saturn is bad, the Hyundai is just noticeably better in every way but looks. Facts that can't be disputed, and I prefer the Saturn generally. It would be hard to buy one though, if I honestly cross shopped the two.

carguy58

"exactly, for many people CR is the ONLY source they trust and coicidentally CR gives domestic cars the worst ratings in road tests and reliability."

No, didn;t you read my post before over the last few years CR has rated the average Domestic Big 3 car more reliable than German makes so the Domestics haven;t been rated worse in reliability for a few years now by CR.

carguy58

"If there are domestics popular with Gen X or younger, it is maybe small Saturns but definitely Jeep Wranglers.

I think members of Generation X like a mix of Domestic's and Japanese makes but Generation Y really doesn;t buy Domestics they buy mainly Japanese and Germans branded cars.

carguy58

"The new camry (finally) has acceptable peformance but its still boring and wimpy looking."

I don't understand the 07 model is the most sporty looking Camry ever. Ok maybe the back end is a litte understated but Toyota can;t really go for all on the styling because they had to keep some of their boby boomer buyers with the 07 Camry but yet they needed some younger buyers to buy the 07 Camry.

andre1969

I don't understand the 07 model is the most sporty looking Camry ever. Ok maybe the back end is a litte understated but Toyota can;t really go for all on the styling because they had to keep some of their boby boomer buyers with the 07 Camry but yet they needed some younger buyers to buy the 07 Camry.


I wouldn't call it wimpy, but I dunno if I'd call it sporty, either. IMO, it's a bit fussy and over-styled. I do like the fact that they gave it nicely proportioned headlights, as I never did go for the oversized bug-eyed/doe-in-the-headlights look that seems to have been the rage since maybe the 1996 Civic. I don't like the way the grille bulges out, though, and where they placed the logo, in the upper part of it, just seems to accentuate that bulge. It makes me think of a rhino that its horn broken off!

The beltline's also too high for my tastes. Again, I know this is all the rage these days, but it seems higher to me than on something like an Accord or Altima. And there's just something about the rear-end that seems over-styled to me. It makes me think of something like a late 90's Acura CL, or maybe the '80-85 bustleback Seville. Not that it looks like a clone of either of those, but I think of those two as overstyled, or at least oddly styled, as well.

If someone showed me an Accord and a Camry, pointed a gun to my head and said "choose one or die NOW", I'd pick the Accord. But the Camry must be doing something right, considering how well it's selling. One thing that might hurt Honda is the way they don't let you pick out individual options. You pick the trim level and take whatever options it has, and that's about it.

Oh, one thing I will say in the Camry's defense, is that it has some nice color choices. I've seen a light blue and a light green that I really like.

andre1969

If you can afford a $600 a month payment you can afford the gas, its that simple. Some, like me, cant afford either and thus would never have owned an SUV in the first place.

Oh please. There are way too many buyers who go out and get the maximum payment they qualify for, because they want the prestige/bling factor, or whatever. I know plenty of people who bought something that's too big for their needs and too thirsty simply because they thought it was cool, could (barely) afford the monthly payment, and then threw a fit the moment gas prices shot up. Most people just aren't that adept at money management skills.

dave8697

A bunch of guys ran at the state championships for high school. The average time of all 27 competitors was 4 minutes and 15 seconds. Isn't average sometimes awesome? How happy would you be to have your son turn in a 4:15?

GM makes thousands of decisions a day. They move millions of dollars of product every day. Is every decision they make in their best interest? no. are 99% of them? yes. Do they need this forum to get corrected onto a new path? no. We come up with lots of suggestions as do the hundreds of thousands of their employees every day. They employ a cross section of americans. If they perform subpar then america's talent pool is subpar. I believe in americans and their efforts to get it right. I think GM's offensive is since 1898. Nothing has changed but natural adaptation to this changing world by all.

I have never suffered any setback that would rank in the top 50 for setbacks in my life because I bought GM, sold GM cars, drove GM cars, worked for GM, worked for their supplier, or worked for a company they sold. Some good things came of having GM vehicles. I got a GM car for $560 that I drove for a long time without ever doing anything costly or unexpected to it. It got me through college and enabled me to buy a new GM by not having payments or big repair bills for 6 years. I bought a Formula 350 when they first came out and totally enjoyed it's nearly unequalled bang for the buck. The worst things about my GM cars have been the paint jobs, but only on the ones I bought used. All new bought were fine. I have over a million miles racked up on my GM cars. 162, 184, 105, 95, 93, and 19k are the miles on the ones I have now. The 95k one is a Mustang. Sold are a 203, a 175, a 21, a 5, and a 125k. No rebuilt engines or trannies. A rebuilt a/c compressor just went into a '99 I just bought. $375 for all. That was my biggest car repair in 15 years and I knew the a/c was broke when I bought it.

I know there are corners cut when these GM cars are produced and that's why many 80's need alternators and water pumps before 100k. That's why the paint is lousy on my '87, '86, '70, '99 and '96, but only after 10 years outside. I see a lot of very satisfied owners of their cars over the last few years. I developed parts for GM that are still in production and they were a leapfrog of Nippondenso at their release, so I know it is being done all the time.

With the gas to run a 300 HP 4x4 for 150k miles starting now, ranging from 30 to 60 thousand dollars, I see the nit picking of a fraction of one percent quality or a couple percent of mileage difference between top makes from GM and Japan as a diversion from that harsh reality creeping in. Dealing with that reality has GM losing some money because of their dependence on trucks for profit. That doesn't get fixed instantly and GM knew what had to be done to fix it long before this forum started.

To buy Japan next? I could justify that easily. Would I expect doing it to avoid one of the 50 biggest mistakes I make in my life? no.

gsemike

"Cars are becoming like political parties in that objectivity is out the window. As we have seen in recent years, some die hard partisans are INCAPABLE of rendering objective evaluations of a politician of their party."

Coming from you... that is classic

m1miata

Then to sum up what you are saying, is that people are so impressed by good Toyotas they have perchased, they will trade in a problematic one for yet another car within the brand. I would say that is somewhat impressive and says volumes about Toyota as an accepted product. That said, I bought three so-so to dog GM cars, was I wrong in doing so? Guess you just have to roll the dice. If you are saying they should run quickly away from Toyota, the same should hold true for those burned by GM.
Loren

m1miata

Well I would say the looks of the Ion is hardly a win against anything. The resale of an Elantra is horrible, however.

m1miata

Well I personally believe some current decisions made are well off the mark. Time will tell if I am right or GM was right. As for product, it is some average, and a few which excel, with most of the New and Improved to come, as in possibly here in 2009. Some nice little make-overs, and a few sparks here and there bring some life to what was possibly seen as dead -- this is good. As for product, once again the quote from Honda, which kinda sums that issue up:
"A company is most clearly defined neither by its people nor by its history, but by its products. Our products will speak the truth about Honda." Soichiro Honda. Now what may be left out when speaking of those employed, is that in many a case the people involved, as in employed, were not listen to, or the product was cheapened up by the bean counters along the way. Thus there is always blame to go around. But alas, Honda is right, only the end product is what will be doing the talking.

It appears to me that after so many posts by GM posting pros about how Toyota is doing this, or Honda did that, it may be the focus is on the competition and not on building any NEW cars. Well at least to the posters here.
Loren

lemko

A lot of young guys see Toyotas as "Mom's car." If anything, they like something like the Mitsubishi Evolution or an old Civic. There are a couple of young guys who live the next block over and they have two Oldsmobile Regencies!!! They had a 1985-90 generation Oldsmobile Ninety-Eight a couple of years ago. Sometimes a young friend of theirs with a CTS-V drops by.

lemko

To me, a Camry says, "I'm afraid of my wife and afraid of what my neighbors will think!" Heck, if my neighbors were a bunch of import-loving weenies, I'd be barreling down the street past them in a massive 1958 Buick Limited four-door hardtop.

lemko

Right now GM is out-styling Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Hyundai, Chrysler, etc.

...and especially Ford!

lemko

I live in the NE and I never would've bought one of those BOF utes regardless of who built it. I remember a lady at work who had a V-10 Ford Excursion and she was paying $80 a week for gas when it was still cheap.

lemko

For what other Toyotas could they be trading their Camries? Could it be more-expensive and also problematic Avalon or are they moving up to Lexi? Would somebody accustomed to a Camry-sized car accept a Corolla, Matrix, or even a Prius?

62vetteefp

IS IT possible that reports of the imminent death of Detroit's Big Three carmakers have been much exaggerated? A fortnight ago both Ford and General Motors (GM) surprised doom-mongers by making profits in the second quarter.

Despite these hopeful signs, few in Detroit are celebrating just yet. All three firms are trying to strike a balance between guarded optimism about the progress of their respective (and very similar) recovery plans, while candidly recognising how far they still need to go to revive their businesses in North America. In particular, all three are uncomfortably aware of the importance of reaching an agreement with the powerful United Auto Workers (UAW) union in the coming weeks. They urgently need to reduce or, if possible, remove from their balance sheets the $100 billion or so in health-care obligations to more than 1m retired workers.

GM reckons it is about 18 months ahead of its rivals in trying to address its problems. It has slashed factory capacity and jobs, cut back on dealer incentives and dramatically curbed cut-price sales to rental firms. But despite a net profit of $891m for the quarter, compared with a loss of $3.8 billion a year earlier, there is more hard work ahead. “In North America, with great support, we have got to break-even. But break-even is not job done,” says Fritz Henderson, GM's finance chief.

But against that gloomy backdrop there are signs that the automakers are improving the way they do business. Both GM and Ford have made big strides in manufacturing efficiency. In this year's Harbour Report, an influential study of North American automotive productivity, GM boasted four of the ten most efficient assembly plants. It now takes an average of 32.36 man-hours to build a vehicle, just 2.4 more than Toyota. According to Harbour, as recently as 2002 the difference between the best and worst factories was more than 11 hours, representing a cost advantage to the Japanese of up to $900 a vehicle.

Product quality is improving, too. In recent industry studies GM either matched or exceeded the quality levels of Toyota's American “transplant” factories,

Yet two big questions remain. Can the Big Three produce more of the cars that Americans want to buy? Many Americans, particularly on the coasts, will no longer even consider their products. And will the UAW allow them to trim health-care liabilities that add more than $1,000 to the cost of each car compared with the non-unionised, Japanese-owned plants?

The automotive press and analysts regard GM's pipeline as more promising than that of cash-strapped Ford,

A deal with the UAW would give the Big Three far more scope to invest in product development. The chances of doing such a deal are hard to gauge. The UAW's leader, Ron Gettelfinger, knows what is at stake for the carmakers and realises that if any of them were to enter bankruptcy—as Delphi, GM's former parts units, did—his retired members could end up with little or nothing. But he may be ready to take that risk if the carmakers press too hard.

In other words, short of the federal government undertaking major reform of America's creaking health-care system, the Big Three will find it hard to compete with the transplant factories. Perhaps the best they can hope for is to hang on grimly in North America and hope that growth in foreign markets comes to their rescue.

If that is what the future holds then GM, which has done a much better job than Ford of running its foreign operations, is in reasonable shape.

62vetteefp

How could Ford Motor Co.’s Mercury brand outperform its Blue Oval stablemate in the J.D. Power and Associates 2007 Vehicle Dependability Study when the marques are identical?

That’s a question that has plagued researchers since the advent of vehicle-quality studies, says Joe Ivers, executive director-quality and customer satisfaction, J.D. Power and Associates.

“As long as there have been customer-survey measurements, you see this 100% of the time,” he says. “At first it seems counterintuitive. These are the same (products), (they) come out of the same plant and the same people build them. It seems they should be identical. They never are.”

In the study released last week, the Mercury brand ranked fourth among 38 auto makers with 169 problems per 100 vehicles, while the Ford brand scored below the industry average with 221 PP100.

The study measures problems experienced by original owners of 3-year-old vehicles.

There are valid reasons quality-survey results appear to be skewed on products that at first glance are identical, Ivers tells Ward’s.

“When you dig into (the results) and look at the vehicle identification numbers and attach options, we almost always see there are differences that weren’t apparent,” he says. “A (Chevrolet) Trailblazer and (Buick) Rainier seem to be identical, but it’s the way they’re optioned that accounts for the difference.”

Demographics also are a mitigating factor in the results. Younger customers tend to be harder to please, while older customers are more forgiving.

“We know there are differences in the way people view their vehicles,” Ivers says. “Something that is problematic to one customer may not be to another. One example is Mercury and Buick, which have older customers, and they tend to identify fewer problems on their vehicles.”

Customer perception is a plausible explanation for the differences in brand rankings, agrees Bruce Belzowski, assistant research scientist-University of Michigan’s Transportation Research Institute.

“For dependability, it is all customer perception,” he says. “It’s their self-report of how many problems they’ve had over the last three years. Different customers detail different areas.”

In general, high-end vehicles perform better in the annual study, Belzowksi says, which also could account for Mercury’s drubbing of Ford. Luxury brands do, indeed, consistently score higher among auto makers with both volume and high-end marques. One exception is the Honda brand, which at 169 PP100 ranks significantly higher than its luxury sister marque, Acura, at 207 PP100.

But the reason most high-end vehicles perform better in the study is not entirely clear. It could be because they are built better or because the driving habits of luxury buyers are different.

“People expect if you pay more for a vehicle it will be more dependable, as well as more appealing,” Belozowski says.

The number of miles driven also could influence the study’s outcome, he suggests.

While miles driven are considered a factor in the J.D. Power survey, says Neal Oddes, director of product research and analysis for the consultant firm, mileage differences only have a negligible effect on the rankings.

“Every problem is a problem,” he says. “All our data is also sales-weighted, so it should reflect the marketplace. (Mileage) has some impact but not to the extent you’d expect.”

Graydon Reitz, Ford director of quality for the Americas, also dismisses mileage as having a significant impact on J.D. Power rankings. “We design vehicles to be fully functional for 100,000 miles (160,934 km),” he says.

As for the Ford brand’s below-industry-average result in the study, Reitz says recent quality improvements across the auto maker’s brands will begin to show as ’06 and ’07 vehicles make their way into the survey.

Vehicles sharing platforms and components that receive dissimilar rankings in the study are not unique to Ford and Mercury, a J.D. Power spokesman says, citing individual driving habits or personal expectations as factors.

Differences in customer perceptions also are evident at the point of sale, says Aaron Zeigler, president of the Harold Zeigler Auto Group in Lowell, MI, which includes three Ford and two Mercury stores.

“The more upscale you go, the better rankings people give cars,” Zeigler says. “With Mercury being housed with Lincoln, you’re getting traditionally a more upscale buyer.”

The notion that customer perception influences the results of the annual vehicle dependability study could lead some to question its validity, Ivers admits. But he stands by his company’s results.

“Quality is the intersection of the product with the requirements of the customers,” he says. “If you have a vehicle with different customers, you have to meet different objectives.”

lemko

I wouldn't say I was "rebellious" when I bought my first car which was a Buick as I came from a Ford family. I just remember my Dad having all kinds of problems with his Ford cars and my Grandpop doing really well with his Chevrolets.

I admire you for thinking for yourself when you bought your first car. You just made a bad choice in the Neon. If you'd have bought a car like my '68 Buick Special Deluxe, you'd probably be a die-hard domestic fan.

jae5

That's good they corrected it but that $4.6K figure is still high, as well as the $4K for the Silverado.

Whatever it takes, I guess :confuse:

62vetteefp

That's good they corrected it but that $4.6K figure is still high, as well as the $4K for the Silverado.

Whatever it takes, I guess

home contractor sales have tanked due to the home market, other people sales have also diminished due to the low mpg and high gas prices.

OEM's are fighting for sales to keep the plants running. There is overcapacity in the pick up market and everyone is doing what it takes. GM stuck up their nose for awhile because they had the big boy on the block but $$$$ were more important to the buyers. they have now raised their incentives and we will see what happens.

jae5

...home contractor sales have tanked due to the home market, other people sales have also diminished due to the low mpg and high gas prices...

Agreed. But looking around during my suburbia drive, most Silverados (of the few I see) are being driven by home contractors but regular people. Probably different in other parts, but the GMT900s are a rare sight out here and in the city.

I just hope that GM doesn't get lost in "Incentive Land" like before. Kind of want to see them be able to hold the line on the incentives, if possible.

1487

"It's the REST of the car that is boring, stodgy, and falls apart easily(though to be honest, nothing like Ford's miserable interiors). "

as usual your comments have no correlation with the actual products. Solstice GXP, CTS, C6, Aura, STS, XLR, etc. Yes those cars all all stodgy and boring. Again, lets talk about GM's CURRENT vehicles. I know that's tough for many people but it would add some validity to your comments.

As for GM interiors falling apart, I suggest you check out stuff like the Vue, Acadia, Tahoe, etc. You are way off.

1487

"I don't understand the 07 model is the most sporty looking Camry ever. Ok maybe the back end is a litte understated but Toyota can;t really go for all on the styling because they had to keep some of their boby boomer buyers with the 07 Camry but yet they needed some younger buyers to buy the 07 Camry. "

exactly, Toyota has such an established product that they cannot take any risks with the styling of the car. Sure it looks better than the last model, but thats not saying much. GM is on the offensive in terms of styling while Toyota is trying NOT to offend anyone. Toyota would never design something like the G8, Solstice, HHR, Escalade, etc. They dont need to take risks because of their reputation- people dont care about styling when buying Toyotas, just resale value. GM's status has been reduced in the previous decades and I think that has forced them to take chances in design.

1487

"I know plenty of people who bought something that's too big for their needs and too thirsty simply because they thought it was cool, could (barely) afford the monthly payment, and then threw a fit the moment gas prices shot up. Most people just aren't that adept at money management skills. "

Like I said, plenty of people are buying SUVs, even in the liberal "green" NE part of the country. Suvs are not dead by a long shot. Toyota just set a monthly record for light truck sales last month, which is interesting since they are often lauded for "pushing" green vehicles while GM is supposedly forcing buyers to get SUVs.

1487

"Coming from you... that is classic "

Not really. In spite of all the veiled accusations you cant actually back up claims that the "GM fanboys" here are biased. everyone here that is rooting for GM to succeed is capable of acknowledging GM's weaknesses. As for the import lovers..........they arent quite as open minded. If you can quote me to prove otherwise, please do.

1487

'If you are saying they should run quickly away from Toyota, the same should hold true for those burned by GM. "

dont know about you, but I am not aware of many people who would give ANY american brand a second chance in this day and age. We know you wouldnt. When it comes to Toyota, their overall reputation is more important than the last product your purchased from them or dealer service. Everyone who has a problem with a Toyota assumes they are the only ones.

My sister in law had an extended warranty with her camry and said she is glad she had it considering the problems she experienced. If she doesnt get another Toyota, I know she wont get anything that isnt Japanese.

gsemike

G8 - Same recycled beak nose Pontiac styling that been failing them for years. Yeah.... put that wing on the back. That will sway are few BMW buyers

Solstice - A day late and dollar short to the roadster game. I guess designing a car with zero trunk space with the top down is a risk.

HHR - Follow that PT Cruiser leader by 7 years but this time, leverage the vaunted 41 Suburban

Escalade - Quite incidentally, a segment of the market appreciates bling so give them loads of it after following the Navigator to market. Why do you think that the first gen looked so much like a Yukon? Because GM never saw the market coming and had to throw it together is a few months.

The new Camry is a marked departure from the previous gen, and a love it or hate it design. You can't say it's evolutionary styling.

You haven't mentioned one product that is truly risk taking by GM.

anythngbutgm

"Like I said, plenty of people are buying SUVs, even in the liberal "green" NE part of the country. Suvs are not dead by a long shot. Toyota just set a monthly record for light truck sales last month, which is interesting since they are often lauded for "pushing" green vehicles while GM is supposedly forcing buyers to get SUVs."

Look at the YTD figures...
July 2006 July 20007 %CHG
4runner 64,212 50,870 -21.2
LandCruiser 1,863 1,408 -24.8
Sequoia 19,551 14,582 -25.8

LX470 3,210 1,751 -45.8
GX470 61,774 57,654 -7.2

The only ones on the rise are the Tundra (Well known that the incentives are partially driving this) and the FJ. Meanwhile the RAV4 is also climbing big time.

Even Toyota is going to be feeling the crunch if they don't watch it. Nobody is getting a free ride anymore.

chuckhoy

Yet two big questions remain. Can the Big Three produce more of the cars that Americans want to buy? Many Americans, particularly on the coasts, will no longer even consider their products.

I chalk that up to the snobbishness of the people that live on the coasts. They are more concerned with image than anything else. I guess that is what you get when you live in the areas where actors and their ilk congregate.

62vetteefp

large SUV's have taken a slight downturn but nowhere near what was expected when gas prices went up. Now that gas is staying below $3 perhaps some have found that the extra $50/month was not that big of a deal?

I did not realize though that Toyota took such a dump in the truck market as shown above. wow.

As far as incentives I doubt GM will go back to huge incentives on a nation wide market. yes, to get rid of old models ('06's) they put a good incentive. But I feel they will now probably actually be looking at Toyota and make sure that the GM incentive is competitive with them. They are well below what Ford and Chrylsler is offering buy also are lowering their incentives.

carguy58

"Toyota has such an established product that they cannot take any risks with the styling of the car."

I think as evidence of the 07 Camry styling they are starting take a little more risk with styling because they relalize they have to start getting some younger buyers into their showrooms. I mean the average Camry buyer before the 07 redesign of it was 55 years old.

"Sure it looks better than the last model, but thats not saying much."

To me for a Camry it does say alot and the 02-06 Camry was as vanilla as you can get with the styling(maybe thats why your saying thats not saying much.) I agree maybe the 07 Camry could have been better looking but like I said before Toyota didn't want to offened the Boomers but yet they wanted to get some younger buyers with the 07 Camry too.

"GM is on the offensive in terms of styling while Toyota is trying NOT to offend anyone."

The 03 CTS, XLR, and maybre the Esclade and the Lambada trio are the only GM cars that are on a GM styling offensive to me. I have yet to see the finished product of the G8. BTW, I would never buy a 03-07 CTS because of the styling but than again at least the CTS looks different than whats out there.

"Toyota would never design something like the G8, Solstice, HHR, Escalade, etc."

Yeah but thats not Toyota's audience at all with cars like the G8, Escalade, HHR. Toyota doesn't make cars like that. Maybe the Lexus IS could be compared to the G8 I don;t know. To tell you the truth I don;t dig the look of the IS I like the look of the Volvo S40 and Acura TSX better than the IS.

"They dont need to take risks because of their reputation- people dont care about styling when buying Toyotas,"just resale value."

Yeah I agree with you the one thing that Toyota sells cars on is the resale value factor and their reputation(for reliability was well.) I half-agree with you that styling isn;t the reason why people buy Toyota's but Toyota's average age buyer is 50 I mean if Toyota can;t capture Generation Y like they did the early Gen Xers and the baby bommers that is going to be a big problem for them down the road I think thats one of the reasons why Toyota styled the 07 Camry the way they did.

"GM's status has been reduced in the previous decades and I think that has forced them to take chances in design."

Yeah but Gm made a alot of mistakes with their styling in the 90's like with their Pontiac line and not keeping Buick's and Caddy's styling fresh enough that both gained a reputation as an older persons car companys and only Caddy has wiped their reputation off as not being an older person's car company. Hopefully the Buick Enclave will wipe some of the stigma(but I don;t think it will wipe all)of Buick being an older persons car company.

1487

"So, besides that what is the appeal of GM and what is GM's advantage? "

what is Toyota or Honda's advantage? The koreans are designing Toyota look alike cars for thousands less and giving you a rock solid warranty to put your mind at ease.

GM is a large company and some of its vehicles have advtantages over the competition and some of its vehicles are merely on par with the competition. Its not about "the GM advantage" when Gm has so many models with so many different attributes. Same goes for Ford or Toyota or anyone.

I have found that journalists and regular people in CA are totally out of touch with the auto buying tastes of the rest of the country. When I read comments like "i never see american cars other than Escalades that arent rentals" I know people need to get out of CA more often and see what the rest of the country is buying. Domestics arent doing well out there but by the same token if you subtract CA from the rest of the country the market share of imports would plummet dramatically.

1487

"The 03 CTS, XLR, and maybre the Esclade and the Lambada trio are the only GM cars that are on a GM styling offensive to me. I have yet to see the finished product of the G8. BTW, I would never buy a 03-07 CTS because of the styling but than again at least the CTS looks different than whats out there. "

you dont feel the '08 CTS, Malibu, Aura, Sky/Solstice, '08 STS, etc. are not examples of GM stepping up its styling game? Some people give credit where it's due and others.......well they just dont. Toyota may be better than GM at many things, but styling is not one of those things. The Camry is a slightly above mediocre design but because its from Toyota and we expect so little from them people are acting like its an Audi.

If you want to see the G8 check any car website, including this one. The show car was the production car with 20" wheels. What you see is what you get. Unlike Lexus or Toyota cars it has edges and doenst look like a melted jellybean.

lemko

I was just out to California a few weeks ago and in reality it's more like a 50/50 split between domestics and imports.

carguy58

"A lot of young guys see Toyotas as "Mom's car." If anything, they like something like the Mitsubishi Evolution or an old Civic."

well thats what most young people go for is compact cars when they first start driving.

"Sometimes a young friend of theirs with a CTS-V drops by."

Yeah but most your friend is not like most young people I mean young people cannot afford to buy a car like the Caddy CTS-V.

1487

"G8 - Same recycled beak nose Pontiac styling that been failing them for years. Yeah.... put that wing on the back. That will sway are few BMW buyers "

Pontiac doesnt compete with BMWs on price. Pontiac hasnt had a RWD sedan in a long time and now they will have one. If you knew anything about the Commodore you would know its a world class sports sedan for thousands less than MB and BMW models. If you cant see more than a "wing on the back" when looking at the G8 you have to credibility and should refrain from commenting on the car.

"Solstice - A day late and dollar short to the roadster game. I guess designing a car with zero trunk space with the top down is a risk."

yeah thats why the kappas are outselling the Miata. Good one!

"The new Camry is a marked departure from the previous gen, and a love it or hate it design. You can't say it's evolutionary styling.

You haven't mentioned one product that is truly risk taking by GM. "

You are biased and incapable of being honest about the styling of the cars in question. The camry is inoffensive and dull, although not as dull as previous designs. I havent heard ONE person say they hate the design of the car.

Sky, CTS (both versions), XLR, Escalade, H3, Silverado, STS, SSR (out of production now) and XLR are all example of design risks taken by GM. The Camry is not a design risk by any means.

"Escalade - Quite incidentally, a segment of the market appreciates bling so give them loads of it after following the Navigator to market. Why do you think that the first gen looked so much like a Yukon? Because GM never saw the market coming and had to throw it together is a few months. "

dont know what you are talking about here, but you didnt deny the Escalade was a design risk so I take it you agree. Everyone knows the first Slade was a rush job, thats no secret and has little to do with the 2007 model.

lemko

The cars my friends and I drove back in high school in the early 1980s:

1966 Chevrolet Caprice
1968 Buick Special Deluxe
1969 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham
1969 Chevrolet Impala Custom
1971 Chevrolet Kingswood Estate
1971 Chevrolet Malibu
1971 Chevrolet Nova
1972 Chevrolet Impala
1972 Chevrolet Monte Carlo
1973 Chevrolet Impala
1978 Chevrolet Impala
1979 Subaru
1980 Chevrolet Citation
1982 Chevrolet Caprice Classic
1982 Chevrolet Malibu Classic

carguy58

"you dont feel the '08 CTS, Malibu, Aura, Sky/Solstice, '08 STS, etc. are not examples of GM stepping up its styling game? Some people give credit where it's due and others.......well they just dont."

1487, I'm sorry I have seen photos of the 08 CTS but I'm going to reserve judgement on it once I see one in person. I forgot about the Solstice/Sky and your right the Solistice/Sky can be categorized as GM being on a styling offensive. There is a new generation STs coming for 08 or is it just a mid-cycle refresh of the current model? As for the 08 Malibu I have seen some very detailed photo's of it but the tailights like GM melted the tailights off of the 97 Mitsu Diamante and thats not a good thing either.. The Aura is ok looking but its not like a wow! design if you will.

"The Camry is a slightly above mediocre design but because its from Toyota and we expect so little from them people are acting like its an Audi."

To me the 07 Camry is ok looking I;m not saying it has a wow factor to it but its a ok looking car but the things its a big step up for Toyota in the styling department especially for a Camry.

1487

"My father's failed ABS module at 15,000 miles. You respond, that you don't consider that an issue because you're talking about blown trannies and engines. The ABS module is not a big deal in your opinion (which counts for nothing). "

wrong. Not what I said and that doesn't mean I said GM has no faults which is what you suggested.

"I mentioned that I looked at the Aura but was turned off because the car is not as wide as the competition making it only suitable for 4 passengers for any distance. You said that the difference was not big "in your book". "

I said that and it proves nothing. The car's width isnt a major issue for most people, its only 1-2 inches narrower than other cars in this class. Read the comments here on Edmunds by owners. They are allowed to list suggestions for improvement, no one mentioned making the car wider. Its a not issue for most people. Most people I know rarely have 3 across in the rear seat and I have yet to find a midsizer that can hold 3 adults in the back with comfort. I have read MANY reviews of the Aura and to be honest THAT complaint has not really come up. I guess all those journalists are GM fans as well.

"You'll buy GM no matter what. "

Wrong again, my first car was a Suburu and I've only had two cars in life.

"The offensive is much more targeted at winning back a consumer like me. I even gave them a chance with the Aura but it missed the mark. When was the last time that you gave a Japanese car a fair shot? "

First of all I dont need to give any car a "fair shot". I know more about Japanese cars than many of the self proclaimed Japanese car lovers who pester us on this forum. I have no desire to own about 90% of the Japanese cars on the market. I never said they are bad cars, that is a key differnce between you and me my friend. You are here to talk about an ABS module and use it as conclusive proof that American cars are junk while I will GLADLY admit that MOST cars today (including Japanese) are acceptable for daily reliable transportation. Dont ever get our two viewpoints confused because they are not similar at all.

While your list of american cars you would drive is nonexistent I would drive the TL, 2009 Mazda 6, G35 (my favorite Asian car), Mazda 3, ES350 (if I was 60) and maybe even Altima SE. Yeah, I'm REAL biased. I know the facts and the price tags and most Japanese cars dont appeal to me. BTW, I live in the NE (not the midwest), I dont have any financial ties to the Big 3 and I have a degree so you can throw out all the tired stereotypes of a domestic car owner.

If you want a wider midsize car GM does make the Impala and Lacross and Ford makes the Fusion/Milan. The Aura isnt the ONLY option available if you absolutely cant fit in the car.

xrunner2

GM makes thousands of decisions a day. They move millions of dollars of product every day. Is every decision they make in their best interest? no. are 99% of them? yes.

Where does 99% come from? Seems over last handful of years, most of what we heard from GM is about losses.
Given problems with profits, maybe some decisions were made with good intent but were ill conceived or lacking judgement and wisdom.

I know there are corners cut when these GM cars are produced and that's why many 80's need alternators and water pumps before 100k.

Is the "cut corners" mentality gone at GM?

andre1969

Even Toyota is going to be feeling the crunch if they don't watch it. Nobody is getting a free ride anymore.

Exactly. It looks like Toyota's biggest gain is from the Tacoma, Tundra, and smallish SUVs like the Highlander and Rav4. Pickup trucks are pretty much a necessity, as there are many contractors, gov't agencies, etc need them, and many private individuals think they need them. But SUVs, especially the bigger, less fuel-efficient ones, are often considered more of a frivolous luxury item. And in this area, Toyota's falling just like the rest of them.

carguy58

"Domestics arent doing well out there but by the same token if you subtract CA from the rest of the country the market share of imports would plummet dramatically."

No Honda, Nissan, MB, BMW, Hyundai and Toyota do sell well in NJ so don't say that CA is the prodominant state that is responsible import branded car company's rising market share.

anythngbutgm

How is the Silverado, the H3 and STS a design risk? In my eyes, the STS is a CTS (Which WAS a design risk) supersized. The H3 is an H2 downsized and neither of those are design risks. More been there, done that.

And the Silverado, lol it's a truck. It has the distinctive Chevy nose and bowtie. Sure, the interior is improved but that's not a "risk", that's called "saving our behinds from another running joke that was the Silverado/GM interiors of yore.". But what innovations does it bring to the table over the old one? Nothing I can find... So if you're gonna call that a "risk" then the Toyota Tundra is a deal with the devil.

And while you don't find the Camry to be all that special, Toyota has taken a risk there and it has paid off. The pig snout has more to do with pedestrian safety standards than actual style though. Also, look at the FJ cruiser, the first IS300, the Lexus SC, the new RAV4. You may not like them, and you may hate Toyota, but certainly they do show that there is a lot more Toyota outside the Camry...

bumpy

The Prius I could see. Toyota is selling the heck out of those things, and they have about the same interior room as a Camry.

1487

"To me the 07 Camry is ok looking I;m not saying it has a wow factor to it but its a ok looking car but the things its a big step up for Toyota in the styling department especially for a Camry. "

so the Aura is underwhelming to you but he camry is a "big step up" for Toyota? I dont get that at all. Toyota has set the bar so low that they are getting undue credit for the Camry. Its a decent looking car, but its still not close to the best looking. The Aura isnt revolutionary but its at least as daring and different at the '07 Camry and Saturn doesnt exactly have a great reputation for styling.

carguy58

"...and especially Ford!"

Well Ford they have the F Series pick-up, the Mustang, and the Fusion that i could think of that are good styled cars from Ford but thats about it I mean nothing from Lincoln excites or Mercury. I do like the Explorers styling even though people do call it bland.

andre1969

For what other Toyotas could they be trading their Camries? Could it be more-expensive and also problematic Avalon or are they moving up to Lexi? Would somebody accustomed to a Camry-sized car accept a Corolla, Matrix, or even a Prius?

I could see a Prius, if you wanted to more or less maintain interior room. I think that since the '07 Camry's redesign, the Prius actually has a LARGER trunk. Interior volume is similar, although the Camry has more shoulder room while the Prius has more headroom. But basically, they're both comfortable 4-seaters.

Most people I've known with Camrys just trade them on another Camry. It's like they've become the Impala or Cutlass Supreme for the New Millenium.

xrunner2

Wrong again, my first car was a Suburu and I've only had two cars in life.

It is interesting to read comments from people who have had actual real-life experience in owning and driving "various" brands of vehicles. Wife and I have owned many vehicles from "all" three American brands, two major Japanese brands and a German brand. Most times when ready for a new vehicle, we will cross shop various brands, and have an open mind. We gravitated to Honda/Acura mostly, but still test drove other brands when ready for new vehicle. Did so before 07 TL buy.

Have had 3 Acura TLs in a row (01,04,07). Have the 04 and 07 now. When looking for an 04 car and 07, did not even test drive the CTS, which could be considered competitive with TL (realize differences in FWD, RWD). Looked at CTS, sat in at auto shows and did not like interior. Old gen plus 08 CTS are very well styled. Will not be ready for another car until perhaps 2010, but from what has been published in recent magazines, seems like new CTS will definitely merit a look and test drive.