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General Motors discussions

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Comments

  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,412
    "new model comes out next year. The current one is discontinued. Dont count on wheelhop on 2009 model."

    I didn't count on it in a 2007 model either but there you go.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Your fascination with Honda and Toyota is really something. What ever people talk about here, you start in telling them they prefer a Japanese brand. Interesting! And then complain profusely about their preferences. Even more interesting, since it is you which seem to be adding all this information which the people here have not supplied. It is all like fabricated stories which we supposedly made, then must be argued about. This is not interesting any more.

    The CTS has nothing to do with Asian car styling at all. Never said it did. The original may be a best rendition of the Arts & Science, but it is a wait and see, since I have yet to see one in the metal. Now I did say that. If you wish, I could list some American cars designed off of Asian designs. Ever heard of an Infinity J car, and a Ford Taurus, or rental car fame? Most of the knock-offs are from Euro designs, though some look diluted, as in a Japan knock-off of the Euro car, then copied in part by the American brand. Of course you have designs which are original, like the CTS, and Chrysler 300. And then there is the Monte Carlo, which I guarantee you was no knock-off of any Japan or Euro make.

    If you really want to do a one on one with Honda vs, GM designs, then go for it. Take a Solstice and Honda S2000 to the track, being sure to let real drivers do the run. I think they would quickly let ya know which one is the real deal. There simply is nothing which compares. Go back in time to CVCC engines for clean air, Prelude tech advances, and then to today, as a Civic compared to Cobalt. Trust me, don't get into this one or one argument, and stick with what GM is doing or can do win the survival game, then thrive.
    Small to mid-size cars, and minivan one on one, just don't go there, it ain't looking like it is fair.

    L
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Well if you don't know why it is a bad thing, there is no way to explain what class means. Why not just make an Aveo SS too, while you are at it. The SS belongs on performance cars, like the Camaro or a RWD Malibu. You don't diminish what was once a label which stood for something.
    L
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Amen.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Wait & see. The CTS is NOT OUT YET! And yes, from the photos, not particularly impressed. Fatter and more expensive, is nothing to get excited about. Let's see how it looks in the metal, as in up close and personal. CTS had a great look, as an Art & Science truly unique design.
    L
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    In cities like Washington, San Fran, Los Angeles, New York, Miami, Seattle, and Boston- and I live in one of them- the "uncool factor" of buying a Buick, Cadillac, Mercury, Pontiac, etc) would just be too much for me to bear. My kids, co-workers, friends, and neighbors would think I am an octogenarian on the brain or just a total dork.

    What is REALLY UNCOOL is worrying about what others think of you just because of what car you like. If you like Buicks and Caddies, then buy one and to heck what everybody else thinks! If they don't like what you drive, maybe they should make the payments on your next Camcord lemming-mobile! C'mon! You're an adult and not in high school anymore! Heck if you're neighbors are such yuppie idiots, I'd love to move there and come thundering down the street in a 1958 Buick Limited four-door hardtop or a 1957 Mercury Turnpike Cruiser.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Then call it a Special, or a Sport. Heck, the F3 suspension label is fine too. But back off the over use of the SS. Next thing ya know, there will be a Hummer SS.
    L
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The SS moniker is exclusive to Chevrolet. I think they already may have used it on a truck a while back. I liked how they spelled out "Super Sport" on the front fenders of the 1965 Chevrolet Impala SS.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Saturn is Opel now.
    Saturn is GM SUVs now.
    Is Saturn, Saturn now?
    What is your take on current Saturn as a division, less the plastic models of days-gone-bye?

    L
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I'll give you the most recent GM's Asian Knok-off: 2008 Chevy Malibu.

    The side profile (especially the window shape) is lifted directly from the Acura TL.
  • robbiegrobbieg Member Posts: 350
    I agree that the Avalon dash is terrible because of the flip down radio control. Then again, the last generation Avalon dash wasn't much better. In comparison, the Lucerne dash as a pretty good layout but it has three flaws in my opinion: 1) get rid of the shifter on the column. That alone will make Buick appear younger and hipper. I am 36 and there is no way I would drive a car with a shifter on the column. 2) I don't like the gauges on the Lucerne. and lastly 3) the numbers on the radio or climate control unit. To me they look cheap. I am sorry but I don't know technical term but I like the ones that Honda and Lexus use better. Thus in my opinion, both of the dashes aren't very nice and are a far cry from an Audi, which in my opinion sets the standard.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Thing is, those who rent the Malibu will never notice the resemblance. ;) The only rental I've ever had that had a memorable appearance was the ovoid Taurus. The rest all look the same to me.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    When I was really young, the auto dealerships in the USA would all display the latest product on a given night for all the new models for the year. Talk about WOW factor. Can you imagine a young boy seeing the first Mustang, or Camaro, let alone the Corvettes and such. The Riviera was so modern and cutting edge design. The late 60's had such pull to showrooms, they need only advertise the date and time, and people came from afar to see the latest. It is all too boring now, as product trickles in on different dates, and you are hammered by salespeople to buy immediately of leave the lot, please. If GM had the designs with the wow factor, like the good ol' days, people may too dazzled to even think of comparing all the specs to the cars. Bring back the wow! The New Malibu is a good car. There are lots of good cars. Now, what is needed is the WOW! Want to see an SS, look at a '68 Malibu SS, now that is wow!
    L
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    The car does look a bit narrow now. Let's observe how the Jetta had a somewhat narrow look. They changed it to something more Japan or Korean looking car shape, and it is no longer looking like a Jetta = blahhh! Be all so careful when changing a look.
    L
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Bah, "SS" was just a trim package. You got some extra chrome and little flags on the fenders.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    I think they already may have used it on a truck a while back.

    Silverado SS. A guy down the road from me has one.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Thing is, those who rent the Malibu will never notice the resemblance. The only rental I've ever had that had a memorable appearance was the ovoid Taurus.

    I had a memorable experience once, renting a Pontiac Grand Prix. It was the roughest, noisiest, most uncomfortable ride I can remember. But that was a couple of days ago, and things are better over at Pontiac these days.
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,412
    When I think SS, I think tire smoking 70 Chevelle 454 doing 13.30s in 14 inch bias bly tires. The LS6 could do 12.90s on slicks. I know that the name was attached to lesser cars but as the muscle car era matures, the name was reserved for serious machinery until everything started goign downhill.

    Wouldn't it be great if the SS badged were reserved for cars that can do the 1/4 in 14 flat or maybe 14.50 or less? Treat the name with some reverance.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Only the base Lucerne has a column shifter. The more upscale CXL and CXS have it in the console. My girlfriend actually ordered her LaCrosse with a column shifter as she prefers it over the one in the console.

    As per the numbers, I think the term you're looking for is "font." You don't like the font used for the numbers on the instrument panel.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    You got that right! Almost all of today's cars lack that "WOW' factor compared to the old days. Compared to something like the '68 Malibu, today's mainstream car is kind of like a plate spinner coming on after the Beatles on the Ed Sullivan Show.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Wouldn't it be great if the SS badged were reserved for cars that can do the 1/4 in 14 flat or maybe 14.50 or less? Treat the name with some reverance.

    I would assume the turbo HHR will run something like 14.3 or 4 in the 1/4 mile, since the same engine in the turbo Solstice/Sky runs 14 flat.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    If you are suggesting the CTS-V is a bad car because it experienced wheel hop when being launched for testing purposes you are wrong. That is the car's one weakness so naturally you will mention it repeatedly. Never mind the 4.6 sec 0-60 time, the .9g skidpad performance or the great braking. You must read car mags because you are certainly an expert on every criticism leveled againt GM models. Amazingly you seem to forget anything positive though.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    the Lucerne has a floor shifter. Have you ever seen one in real life?

    I find the interior of the A4 to be quite dull and I definitely dont see it as being better than the Lucerne. The A6 dash is a little more high end but I dont like the squareness of the design.

    What is your problem with the numbers on the Lucerne's climate control?
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    I will suggest that you (and your buddy Loren) read about the HHR SS before making assumptions. Your assumptions (what a shock!) are off base. Chevy is only using the SS moniker on thoroughly upgraded vehicles from this point forward. This is why the Equinox Sport is NOT an SS. This is why the 173hp Cobalt is called Sport for 2008 instead of SS. Pay attention, you are so busy trying to jump on everything GM does that you dont even notice when they are in agreement with you.

    Just reading the press release about the vehicle will answer some of your questions.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    yeah better styling, more power, wider track, 6 speed auto, more features, much better interior design, etc. Nothing to get excited about. Only you would come away with the impression that the new car is worse than the old one. I have seen enough pics of the car to know I like it. Perhaps you need to see one at a dealer to make that determination. I doubt you will have the same issue with the 2008 accord.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Maybe in addition to the image, they like the driving dynamics and attention to detail of a European car. Isn't Saturns whole deal about delivering a European flavored car? How does Saturn define that?

    I thought Saturn's image was about service, plastic panels, and no-haggle pricing. Ooops! - that was the previous flavor of the month advertising image.

    The fact that we are still discussing what each GM brand stands for after all these years of discussions indicates that the brand [non]differentiation isn't working.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    all SS models will be developed by GMPD and the HHR is the second model to get that full treatment.

    What was the first?
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    PS- I see plenty of domestic vehicles when I go to NY.

    I do too. Cabs. Bwahaha! :P
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "Then call it a Special, or a Sport. Heck, the F3 suspension label is fine too. But back off the over use of the SS. Next thing ya know, there will be a Hummer SS.
    L "

    SS is for Chevy. GXP is for Pontiac. Redline is for Saturn. Alpha is for Hummer. Its pretty simple actually.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    even the Altima and Camry rentals look the same to you? Interesting. Crazy how rentals are only made fun off when they arent imports.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "The fact that we are still discussing what each GM brand stands for after all these years of discussions indicates that the brand [non]differentiation isn't working. "

    actually "we" arent discussing brand differentiation. You are. Anyone with any common sense can figure out the difference between the brands, unless that person is blind of course. Those who cant see the vehicles would be excused.

    Saturn hasnt introduced a new model with plastic panels since 2003.

    BTW, the no haggle pricing is still around in case you missed it. Not quite "flavor of the month advertising image" as you stated.

    Hope I didnt put any words in your mouth.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Anyone with any common sense can figure out the difference between the brands, unless that person is blind of course.

    There have been myriad discussions for on this board about the images and intent of each GM brand. Perhaps you were out during those discussions. This is part of GM, and their "offensive". Very pertinent to this board.

    Check out the Autoweek quote. GM has recently changed its flavor for Saturn. Don't know why you can't get the point that Saturn's image is fading from the original one to a new one. Meanwhile we still try to figure out what 5++ divisions are meant for as GM jiggers its intent.

    http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070801/FREE/70730018/1024/L- ATESTNEWS

    "It might be a slight exaggeration to say that Saturn is Opel's U.S. brand."
    "But GM is clearly sticking with its strategy to give Saturn a European flavor."
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Why not just make all the upper grade in bling-bling SS and in the GM SS cars and trucks. ;)
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    I just thought about it and this is the 3rd SS to get the full treatment, the first two were Cobalt SS/SC and Trailblazer SS. Both were fine tuned in Germany and featured full chassis upgrades.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    How about "BB" instead of "SS" then?

    That could work on the Cadillacs.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    I am well aware of Saturn's current approach to gaining import buyers. You said we are "still" discussing what GM's brands are supposed to stand for and I disagreed. Lutz has been at GM since 2001 and the mission of the brands (except Saturn) hasnt really changed since he got there. In fact, Saturn's purpose has NEVER changed, but their products and approach has changed. Anyone who has been paying attention can tell you what GM brands are supposed to stand for. While you may be somewhat confused about what the brands represent I dont think that applies to GM management or everyone here.
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,412
    "If you are suggesting the CTS-V is a bad car because it experienced wheel hop when being launched for testing purposes you are wrong. That is the car's one weakness so naturally you will mention it repeatedly."

    Take it easy. I didn't say it was a bad car but I will say it's not in the same league as the M3. I also did not mention it repeatedly. Just once was enough.

    You're the only self proclaimed expert here. I'm just an enthusiast.

    Have you found that post of me praising Toyota yet?
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Waiting to see one on the track at Laguna Seca. :surprise:
    Look, the HHR is a cute little van, and it can look sporty and I suppose you can hop it up, but a Super Sport car, it is not. If GM has to reach down to vans for SS models, they are in trouble deep. Instead of trying to make an HHR into a sports car, how about fully developing the Solstice and Sky models. You know there is no roll bar, and not a place in which to install one. Ever read the Edmund's take on the Solstice ? And they left out some things, like the bathtub effect, and no usable arm rest. Yes they sell; on looks no doubt. You do know the Miata is still selling, on its merits, no doubt.

    No, I am not going to read up on the HHR SS. Anyone foolish enough to pay excessive dollar for a nice economy, cute and functional car, somehow transformed into Superman HHR, is just throwing money away. When I pay more, I move on the another grade of auto. That said, people can burn money, if they so wish, I don't actually care.
    L
  • lweisslweiss Member Posts: 342
    Actually you coming down the stree in a 1957 Mercury Turnpike Cruiser might be way cool- but maybe you should get decked out in an Elvis hairdo and clothes to complete the image (haha, if you want to express your individuality, that might be a way to do it!)

    But even if you don't want to be conformist, the problem with unpopular cars is that the resale value suffers when you try to sell it. The Asian and European makes are super popular in the used car market here, the domestics don't do nearly as well (unless you have 1965 Mustang or something, pretty hot!)
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    M3 was a compact coupe weighing 3500lbs, the CTS V was a midsize sedan weighing 2 tons. They were not in the same league for that reason alone. In terms of performance they were in the same league. The CTS-V was equal to the last gen M5 for about $25k less, its that simple.

    Unless you drag race on a regular basis the wheel hop wasnt an issue.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    Does anyone see the erie resemblance of the nose on the HHR and Bob's face in this pic?

    image
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Cost is no object, then a CTS-V would be a cool car to own. You buy the car and the gas, and I will drive it ever day. I saw the race version at Laguna Seca, and it was pretty dang awesome. Most aggressive Caddy one could imagine. Sounds louder than the Corvettes #3 & #4 at the track. Those Vettes did well that weekend, back in '04.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    What part of VAN don't you understand?

    What is really needed these days are SS labels on UPS trucks, fire trucks, ambalances, golf carts..... the sky is the limit.... oh doh, the Sky will be an SS, I meant the sky above us all, you know, the open space above the roof. :blush:

    L
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    There we go again, the infatuation with the Accord. You really wanted one didn't ya. ;)

    As for the CTS for 2008, better styling is to be determined. More power is something nice, but the 3.6V6 should have been standard, or the price lowered from day one. If you mean more HP in the 3.6V6, that is nice, but the price is additional, is it not? The interior has to be better - yuppp!
    The current transmission seems OK, and the new one seems just fine too, if it is like the Aura XR 6 sp, which seems to be just fine. A wider track you say, well then OK.
    We'll see what it looks like. Different is not nessarily better or worse. Same with wider is not always better, as it depends on where you drive and park the car. The CTS is a foot longer than a BMW3, as in so what? By the size and buy the pound it beats the Bimmer - yea... and so does the DTS.

    L
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Is Saturn a planet adrift?
    L
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,412
    "The CTS-V was equal to the last gen M5 for about $25k less, its that simple."

    Um... no. What's simple is that you'd never have to worry about wheel hop in an M5 or an M3. Wheel hop is the domain of high school hot rods, not $50,000 sport sedans. That's why caddies are not yet the equal of BMWs in image or anything else.

    Did you find my Toyota post yet?
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Hey now, this is gonna look sweet, the G6GXP Kinda looks like a license plate. :shades: So darn, they can use the SS on the CTS. No CTSSS model - oh darn. But they will have the Aveo SS. Can't wait. :blush:
    L
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Hey watch out, GM resembles that remark. :mad:

    :DL
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Trailblazer, now there is a sporty looking car, ummm, SUV/truck... whatever. :confuse: You need an SS to offroad. Can we take it deer hunting too? Cobalt SS sounds like some sort of coding for computers.

    Where is the 2008 Cobalt SS ?

    Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    So what Saturn stands for is so clearly defined that the management of GM are the only ones which understand this? May want to let the customers in on this plan. ;) If the product and approach has changed, I am thinking this goes a long way to totally new plan or no plan at all. The product is what speaks to the customer. If the GMC, Chevy and whatever GM SUV is like the Saturn SUV, then they as a dealership are nothing more than all in the same. They appear to be part Opel and part GM "the rest" and no part Saturn. Now, if Saturn became the IMPORT division or Opel of America, I can understand the transition from plastic car builder. Currently it is Heinz 57.
    L
This discussion has been closed.