General Motors discussions

xrunner2

It is much easier to plan and mitigate emissions from a few power plants than thousands of cars. You can also relocate these emissions from already bad urban areas to better rural areas.

Thanks a lot. Why should people in rural areas get the polution from energy needed by big cities? Over last 8 years folks in my area worked very hard to defeat two different big national power companies that wanted to build gas powered peaker plants. The companies' intentions were to sell the power to electric companies "outside" of our area. No benefits to anyone nearby. Also, each of these plants were going to consume enormous amounts of water out of "our" aquifiers.

Keep reading articles that GM target date of 2010 for electric vehicle is too ambitious.

62vetteefp

Keep reading articles that GM target date of 2010 for electric vehicle is too ambitious.

Thats what Toyota said last year. Guess what. They just announced that they will also have a Volt type powertrain in 2010.

Bottom line is that GM is running full bore in designing, developing and engineering a Volt type vehicle. The car will be there in 2010. The big question is what range it will have and that depends soley on the battery. The latest batteries being tested are meeting most of the criteria including the tough one where they drive the vehicle in the desert at 120 degrees with a failed cooling system. It is passing with flying colors. But GM will be a lot more confident in December after testing is partially completed on the latest battery packs they expect in June.

Lets hope for our country that the batteries pass testing.

chuckhoy

You can choose to believe me or not, but the environmental impact of ground-level pollution that has an immediate impact on human health (Particulate Matter, SOx, NOx, etc...) from a new power plant that is built by somebody that knows what they are doing is about 10% of the ground level ambient concentrations of the pollutant. I'll put it another way. If you took samples of air from around your state and averaged them you can come up with a "background" level of pollution. Then if you take the pollution generated by the plant and ran a computer simulation (yes, the state air permit people and EPA actually do this) of the pollution you would find that the ground level impacts from the plant are insignificant compared to the background levels. This assumes the power company is sane and does not try to locate it near anything like a city or tries to get away with skimping on pollution control equipment. This does not address GW issues at all. CO2 and the like have no immediate impact on human health unless you get into absurd concentrations.

Water is a different problem. Most power companies try to locate on a river to take advantage of scads of water. But, if you are talking about the SW part of the US that is not too much of an option. I would be concerned about using up all the local water.

You are exposed to far more pollution driving behind someone with a car from the 80s that does not believe in tune-ups.

stever

You may want to check into the water wars between north and south Florida and Tennessee and Georgia. Growing up there, I thought the southeast had scads of water too, but things have changed, at least during this drought period.

Then there was the TVA nuke power plant in Chattanooga that had to shut down this past summer because the Tennessee River got too warm to provide safe cooling for the reactor.

Huh, all this time I thought I was in the Are automobiles a major cause of global warming? discussion.

How about that Volt?

bumpy

the tough one where they drive the vehicle in the desert at 120 degrees with a failed cooling system.

Wouldn't the toughest test be driving in the deset at 120 degrees with a working AC? :P

Anyway, the real hurdle for using lithium-based rechargable batteries is managing the extremely finicky charging cycle. It basically has to be done on a cell-by-cell basis with constant monitoring and adjustment of volts, amps, temperature, etc. Let one or two of the cells get away from the others and bad things happen.

Lets hope for our country that the batteries pass testing.

You do know that China has the world's largest lithium reserves?

helmutvonkopf

I bought a Saturn when I first came to the US, mainly because my sister in law had one and I bought into the touchy, feely, "we care" positioning of the brand. A year or two in the consumer vipers' nest that is the US soon took the scales from my eyes and I now see them as a purveyor of repackaged second rate GM-US engineering for the generations after the boomers.

I have been lucky with my Saturn whereas my sister-in-law ended up with a real dog and this has added to my general perception of American cars being a roll of the dice.

I think Saturn could do well with a policy to bring in the Opel line from Europe. The Corsa has to be better than the Aveo and the Vectra is a decent compact sedan. The styling stodginess of the Accord/Camry/Sonata drone clones is an opportunity for anyone who can produce a viable alternative. It seems that Saturn are going to be taking the next Vectra as the new Aura. I seem to have not even noticed the current Aura at all. I live in Palm Beach County and there are so many rich and old people that I don't think I see a representative cross section of what sells in the rest of the country. It's all Town Cars and luxury brands here.

62vetteefp

You do know that China has the world's largest lithium reserves?

OMG!! I did not know. What the &&&%$%%. They are sitting on top of the world. Well that means we just better go full hog E85 and use the junked chinese dogfood for the ethonal plants. :P

I wonder if our sewage could be used for ethanol production. We sure have a lot of that here. :P

bumpy

If we're buying our car batteries from China and our E85 from China, why not just have them build the rest of the car, too? GM would certainly like it that way, but Rocky wouldn't.

mr215

I think the automotive media is catching on but not the mainstream media. I heard that the NYT did a story on the front page of its business section on Toyota's vague promise of a plug in hybrid by 2010. No such ink was dedicated to the Vue plug in. The mainstream media is beholden to the idea that Toyota is the solution and the Big 3 are the problem when it comes to energy consumption and they dont let the facts get in the way.

louiswei

Has GM started the Volt plug-in road test yet? How about the VUE plug-in? Maybe Toyota's plug-in by 2010 promise is "vague" but at least we know that there are 2 Prius plug-in prototypes being tested as we speak in California.

I 100% disagree about Toyota calling the Volt as "vaporware" but come to think about it, they do have a point.

62vetteefp

It is not the vehicles that are important. It is the powertrain.

Now is the Prius Li-Ion? The battery is the sticking point. As of 4 months ago Toyota had nothing that worked, at least per there management. Of course they could have been fluffing all of us. But they have had published reports of Li-Ion batteries burning up in their testing.

louiswei

No, the plug-in Prius is not LI but Iike I said, at least Toyota is running road test for their plug-in hybrids. I know it's not as simple as just replacing the old batteries with LI to make it LI plug-ins but at this point Toyota appears to be ahead of the curve than GM on plug-in hybrids. Once the LI technology is product-ready, one can expect to see a LI plug-in Prius running immediately following.

Like I said, the Volt is definitely not a "vaporware" but if it is Toyota is, and should be, the only one qualify to call it.

rockylee

Nope Rocky, wouldn't !!!

-Rocky

lemko

I wonder if our sewage could be used for ethanol production. We sure have a lot of that here.

Yeah, and a lot of it is produced by Hollywood and today's so-called music industry!

rockylee

Yeah, and a lot of it is produced by Hollywood and today's so-called music industry!

It's not that bad. The movies from the 50's, 60's, 70's, were terrible. The music wasn't bad either but it's not terrible today either. The record company's got greedy and are paying for it and is why you have 40 gig hard-drives in cars like the CTS !!!

-Rocky

zoomgyoza

Hey Roxy!!! relax it will be years before GM executives do anything about Velite :P .
To make a profit from those models is very slim to none at these bad economy.
I would buy Genesis for that money, w/ V8 with 375hp, xm realtime traffic, 8" lcd navigation, 30gig harddrive, 53/47 weight distribution that cost less than $40,000?? . And it is North Korea where the human right issue is :sick:

rockylee

Actually Hyundai/Kia is South Korean. I wonder how that V8 Genesis, is going to meet the 35 mpg CAFE ???? :surprise:

The Genesis, will do well but it should be tariffed because the Koreans, manipulate their currency and have trade barriers to limit or eliminate american exports. :mad:

-Rocky

P.S. I know my Velite, is dead !!! :sick: All they would need to do is slap a 350 hp diesel in it and let the good times roll !!! :shades:

62vetteefp

Rocky, what about the Velite makes you want it?

rockylee

Rocky, what about the Velite makes you want it?

EVERYTHING PAL !!!!

The styling 62' is just beautiful pal inside and out. The waterfall grill and contemporary lines are just classy. Is why I like the Enclave too !!! :shades: I also like the large size and the fact that it can fit 4 adults comfortably in a convertible is very rare.

Throw in some XWD, powerful efficient engine, magneride, and boy you got one heck of a car IMHO. :shades:

I loving this car before I ever signed up to Edmunds, thought I'd get to see it made as a production model. :sick:

-Rocky

62vetteefp

HMMM, not sure if I mentioned it here but at the style event I talked to some media who had seen the new LaCrosse. Lets see, it will be on Epsilon so it will have the 3.6l with 6 speed (maybe even the DI in a top model?), has the epsilon II huge back seat legroom and larger size overall than Eps I. Has XWD been shown on the Epsilon Saab's?

Anyway the guy I talked to said the LaCrosse was the most beautiful mid size car he had ever seen and this guy has been around awhile.

Doubt this car is our Velite but it hopefully will be a good sibling to the Enclave.

mr215

"I 100% disagree about Toyota calling the Volt as "vaporware" but come to think about it, they do have a point. "

they have no point. Toyota derides any tech they arent leading on and then brag about hybrid synergy drive. Lutz has already said Volt mules will be on the road THIS YEAR. Toyota made a vague promise (after denouncing plug ins) and we are supposed to say that is equal to all GM has said and done to bring the volt to fruition? Not really. Gm has set up a design studio and dedicated hundreds of engineers to Volt. Not saying that means it will be out in 2010, but I am saying it shows they are dead serious. Toyota goes from doubting the technology to saying they plan to have something on the market by 2010 (what a coincidence) within months. BTW, Toyota has said previosuly they will looking to lease vehicles to certain customers. That is not the same as having a model available for sale at dealerships.

Even if the Volt doesnt come out in 2010 the time for saying GM is all talk and no action in regards to fuel saving tech is over. Toyota says a diesel V8 is coming "soon" but gives no details. GM has announced specs on its V8 and told us it will be on sale in 2009. Toyota says they havent found a way to provide hybrid tech on large V8 trucks and SUVs but Gm has a system out now. Toyota promises a plug in but doesnt even have a concept to show us. Gm has shown us the Volt and the Vue plug in and plans to have both available in 2010.

210delray

You may not be aware of all the hemming and hawing on the part of Lutz & Co. on the Volt: See this. A snippet: Ever since the Chevy Volt burst forth from the 2007 Detroit Auto Show, "Maximum Bob" has been feeding an adoring press a steady diet of sound bites on the Volt's technology and timetable. The statements are frequently contradictory, usually unrealistic and subject to frequent change.

andy82471

Overpromise and under deliver is a signature of the domestic auto industry. Nobody should be surprised.

sls002

The batteries were the problem from the very beginning. When the Volt concept was introduced they said that they were working on the batteries. Experts said the batteries were a shot in the dark so to speak, and getting working batteries was very iffy by the end of this decade. There is nothing new here...

However, the need for this technology to work is increasing.

mr215

I know all about it. Not much has ever changed in reality. The media is trying to catch Lutz saying something that contradicts GM position from last year. They have never guaranteed the vehicle will be on sale by 2010 but they have always said that is the goal. The only people qualified to say if the statements are unrealistic are the battery development team. Some guy in the press shouldnt be telling us what is realistic and unrealistic. I suppose that same person would have no problem with Toyota's predictions about future products.

mr215

not sure how GM can undeliver when we havent gotten to 2010 yet. I would wait until then to talk about how GM failed because until then all we have is speculation from those who want to believe Toyota is the only company who is doing anything to reduce our fuel usage.

GM promised it would move aggressively on hybrids and it has. GM promised it would focus on better interiors and styling and it has done so. I wouldnt count them out just because they are domestic. Lets not forget that BMW and MB have signed on to use GM's two mode hybrid system. The press likes to act like they have been developing the system jointly all along but that isnt the case. Its a GM system and they signed on to use it on their vehicles.

louiswei

When the Volt concept was introduced they said that they were working on the batteries. Experts said the batteries were a shot in the dark so to speak, and getting working batteries was very iffy by the end of this decade.

How's that different from Toyota's claim about LI battery technology just isn't mature enough for mass production yet?

So when GM says it, it's okay but when Toyota says it, it's "uh-oh, Toyota is in trouble"? :confuse:

sls002

I have serious doubts that either GM or Toyota know how to build useable LI batteries. My comment above was that when GM introduced the Volt they said that the batteries were under development. Experts (not from GM) seemed to say that the LI batteries were going to be a difficult problem.

I am not quite sure what your response it getting at :confuse:

mr215

if i'm not mistaken Toyota and Honda have expressed skepticism about the type of drive system being proposed for the Volt and plug in tech. The point is why is Toyota trying to downplay GM's strategy if they are attempting to do the same thing?

BTW, no one said Toyota is in trouble, you are overreacting. Toyota claims they care about the environment but seems to downplay environmental tech that they dont pioneer. Its like if they arent the innovator, it cant be done. As Gm has noted, they are the only company exploring EVERY technology that can reduce oil consumption instead of banking on one like toyota. You here little from Toyota about diesels, fuel cells or E85. All you hear about is hybrids.

bumpy

As Gm has noted, they are the only company exploring EVERY technology that can reduce oil consumption

That certainly sounds good, but it does bring up the question of whether or not GM can afford to fully fund a myriad of R&D projects like that while still losing money on its daily operations. Toyota has a bigger money bin than Scrooge McDuck so they could easily afford those "throw it at the wall" projects, but instead they chose to pick one system and wring every cost reduction and efficiency increase out of it. GM, on the other hand, had to empty out the kitchen cabinet and call in every accountant's trick in the book just to keep the financial wolves at bay for a few more quarters to develop three or four hybrid systems, two new diesel families, plus develop flex-fuel versions of some but not all of their gasoline engines.

cooterbfd

Hey, they aren't fully funding any of it. They got BMW and MB to bite on the 2 mode, and the Li battery tech has been contracted out to other companies that stand to gain from GM's purchase of the batteries. That is smart. It wouldn't hurt if the government would kick in some $$$ for battery R&D like Japan is doing.

rockylee

Well 62' the LaCrosse, I'm sure will be a beaut !!!

XWD, well for this year will only be available on certain models of the 9-3. Epsilon II the 9-3 is built on, right ?

-Rocky

lostwrench

I went to the Chevy dealership to look at a 2008 regular cab 4cyl Colorado. Guess what. They cannot be sold in my state. Actually there are a small number of states in which they cannot be sold. Why? Because they cannot pass emissions in those states! A 2008 truck and it can't pass emissions in some states?! Geeze GM, you are forcing me to buy a 4 cyl reg cab truck from another company. :confuse:

62vetteefp

What this means I am not sure but in the past GM midsize sold like 2/3 V6 and 1/3 4 cylinder while the Camry and Accord sold about the opposite.
So when the Malibu settles out (1 year) we may see it sell 2/3 4's and 1/3 6's like it's main competition. Could be because of gas prices or perhaps it is bringing in a different buyer than in the past?

Speaking to reporters at the North America International Auto Show, GM Chief Executive Rick Wagoner says some early data on engine take-rates for the Malibu show customers opting as much for the car’s smaller 2.4-liter 4-cylinder engine as they are for the Malibu’s grunty and sophisticated 3.6-liter dual-cam V-6.

In the past, initial customers for highly anticipated new vehicles typically opted for the largest, most powerful engine if there was a choice, an inclination that has been fairly universal, regardless of name or badge. And some of that phenomenon was driven by the automakers, which often slant the early “mix” of vehicle production towards heavily optioned, higher-profit models and trimlines.

But Wagoner says that hasn’t been the case with Malibu, in what might be a clear indicator of customer sentiment about the impact of larger engines – both on the environment and their wallets, with gasoline prices often drifting above $3 per gallon.

62vetteefp

Automakers recalled nearly 15 million vehicles for repairs at dealerships last year, the government reported Thursday, an increase of about 30 percent over 2006.

Automakers issued 588 separate recalls involving 14.5 million vehicles in 2007, or about 30 percent more vehicles than the previous year, according to data released by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. In 2006, the industry recalled 11.2 million vehicles as part of 490 individual recalls.

General Motors Corp. and Toyota Motor Co. both saw a decline in total vehicles recalled. GM recalled 537,992 vehicles in 2007, by far its lowest number during the decade. The automaker has averaged 4.7 million recalled vehicles a year since 2000.

mr215

" Toyota has a bigger money bin than Scrooge McDuck so they could easily afford those "throw it at the wall" projects, but instead they chose to pick one system and wring every cost reduction and efficiency increase out of it."

You have any figures to back that up? GM has increased capital spending over the last few years and is close to Toyota in that number as far as I know. I think they are at $8B or $9B annually right now. You are making a lot of assumptions but I havent seen much in the way of facts to back them up.

GM must be doing something right seeing as though they have managed to roll out two hybrid systems, two DI engines and many 6 speed autos in the last few years and have two diesels on the way in 2009. If they are struggling to attack fuel efficiency on many fronts I would like to see the evidence. Toyota on the other hand says synegy drive is the best and only solution.

chuckhoy

You do have to give them a lot of credit for being first and being ahead of the curve. Of course Toyota would poo-poo what GM is doing. They are competitors. I would think that Toyota execs are smart enough to have other systems in the pipeline.

rockylee

Well I can stand beside ideals I think are right
and I can stand beside
the idea to stand and fight
I do believe there's a dream for everyone
This is our country

There's room enough here
for science to live
and there's room enough here
for religion to forgive
and try to understand
all the people of this land
this is our country

From the east coast to the west coast
down the dixie highway back home
this is our country

And poverty could be just another ugly thing
and bigotry would be seen only as obscene
and the ones who run this land
help the poor and common man
this is our country

From the east coast to the west coast
down the dixie highway back home
this is our country

The dream is still alive
someday it will come true
and this country
it belongs to folks like me and you
so let the voice of freedom
sing out through this land
this is our country

From the east coast to the west coast
down the dixie highway back home
this is our country
From the east coast to the west coast
down the dixie highway back home
this is our country

A song for Chevrolet & John Reid Edwards :shades:

-Rocky

jkr2106

I will give credit to Toyota for being ahead of the curve in hybrid development; the Prius has forever changed the automotive landscape and they should be recognized (either applauded or shunned) for it. But like mr215 said, GM is hedging its bets by investing in multiple technologies instead of telling the public what they should want. Hmm...that kinda sounds like old-GM there: being a technological innovator, but allowing complacency and arrogance set in over the long-haul...

62vetteefp

Virtually all the technologies GM is working on will probably go into production. Just along a timeline.

E85 out there and waiting for pumps and technology to catch up. Seems like the only known economical short to mid term solution. With the announcement by GM we may see widespread usage by 2012 or so.

Hybrid out there and a short to mid term solution but expensive to the buyer, at least in the form that Toyota is using as is the 2 mode GM is using. The other mild hybrid that GM is using should spread to every vehicle made. Low cost/fast payback.

Plug in / Hybrid almost here and a mid term solution but again expensive. Will not be in wide spread use until at least 2015

Hydrogen long term solution and the way most feel we need to go in 20 years.

Sprinkled out there are other solutions such as turbos/diesels which are being developed for the near to mid term.

csandste

I'm not going to be posting much here because I already have two late model cars and I'm not in the market. Now that the car is introduced, however, how about moving discussion over to the 2008 Astra thread (ignored since summer). "Saturn gets Opel Astra" is going to look a bit outdated in 2009.

irismg

The Europeans have a thing for gray interiors, don't they?

sls002

Hydrogen is all well and good, but you need a source for hydrogen; that is to say an energy source that is clean.

rockylee

Hydrogen is all well and good, but you need a source for hydrogen; that is to say an energy source that is clean.

Nuclear Power Plant

-Rocky

rockylee

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080120/ap_on_bi_ge/gm_dealerships;_ylt=ApQPy.7xWh2O- TDDoIfSQE76yBhIF

-Rocky

rockylee

Mom, was wondering when the Malibu, SS might come out ??? I told her I thought it and the Redline, would come out in 2009'. Any idea what engine we might see or are they still exploring options ???

-Rocky

rockylee

How in the heck did the CX-9 win North American Truck of the Year over the Tahoe Hybrid, and especially the Buick Enclave, just baffles me ???? :sick: I honestly believe that in order to not have GM, sweep the field 2 years in a row they had to give it to a non-GM, vehicle in order to not look biased. Well it's not our fault that we our making benchmark vehicles in every catergory lately !!! :shades:

-Rocky

jkr2106

Re-reading my post, I just wanna make it clear that I was deriding Toyota for trying to tell the public we should want their 'synergy drive' and NOT saying GM should take a stance on any particular technology. I'm saying Toyota was an innovator with hybrids, but that's not enough...they need to keep developing more technologies like GM is doing now. It seems like Toyota is becoming more like old-GM everyday...

rockylee

Re-reading my post, I just wanna make it clear that I was deriding Toyota for trying to tell the public we should want their 'synergy drive' and NOT saying GM should take a stance on any particular technology. I'm saying Toyota was an innovator with hybrids, but that's not enough...they need to keep developing more technologies like GM is doing now. It seems like Toyota is becoming more like old-GM everyday...

Yeah the old GM, didn't do much in the way of innovating in the 1980's.

However, they are now kicking butt and are making some of the latest and greatest "gadgets" in the world.

-Rocky

dtownfb

Enclave is all show and no go. All the reviews I have read is great interior but at over 5000 pounds, it is not very agile. Tahoe Hybrid makes me think large shrimp or goverment intelligence. Not sure a vehicle getting 20 mpg on the highway is somethingwe should reward. Put that hybrid technolgy in a small car and get 40 mpg then we can talk.

You really need to think outside of GM sometime. there is a wonderful world out there.