Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
Options

General Motors discussions

1515516518520521558

Comments

  • toyota4lifetoyota4life Member Posts: 53
    They will need that luck, i thought they were turning the big ship around, looks like the ship has turned into the Titanic. :sick: ..After learning that their large suv's are catching fire and burning down people houses ,this has to be a real kick in the rear :cry:
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    They will need that luck, i thought they were turning the big ship around, looks like the ship has turned into the Titanic. ..After learning that their large suv's are catching fire and burning down people houses ,this has to be a real kick in the rear

    Yes there have been two reported fires. Perhaps there is really something wrong or perhaps not. We will see. Good for GM that recalls really dropped in '07 and GM had fewer recalls than any other mainstream OEM's including Toyota even though they have more than twice as many cars on the road as any other manufacturer (guestimate only).

    Far as earnings there really was a huge increase in profit last year on the automotive side. The financial meltdown in this country drove huge losses at GMAC. The large number they posted was due to the huge tax write off which was just a paper exercise.

    GM today announced an adjusted net loss – excluding special items — of $23 million in 2007. This compares to an adjusted net income of $2.2 billion in 2006, as significantly improved automotive performance was offset by large losses at GMAC.

    Including special items, the company reported a loss of $38.7 billion, compared to a reported loss of $2 billion in 2006. The 2007 loss is almost entirely attributed to the non-cash $38.3 billion special charge in the third quarter related to the valuation allowance against deferred tax assets.
  • toyota4lifetoyota4life Member Posts: 53
    You or bob putz can put a spin on things all you want but a loss is a loss, How can you have the same exact tax write off just a few months ago ? :confuse: ...how about the buyout to every single american worker :confuse:..........11/7/07 Sharon Terlep / The Detroit News
    General Motors Corp. today announced a record $39 billion net loss for the third quarter of 2007, its bottom line marred by a colossal tax accounting charge against its earnings.

    Hours before today's earnings release, the automaker surprised Wall Street in announcing a $38.6 billion charge to third-quarter results related to future tax benefits. GM said the charge is an accounting adjustment and doesn't affect the automaker's cash flow or long-term prospects for profitability.

    But investment analysts were reading GM's explanation as gloomy indication that GM's outlook is worse that initially believed. :cry: how many tax write off can you have in 4 months? :confuse: we are talking a 77+ billion dollor loss,er tax write off ;)
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    You or bob putz can put a spin on things all you want but a loss is a loss, How can you have the same exact tax write off just a few months ago ?

    Because the numbers you are referring to are for last year and guess what!! they announced they were taking the tax write off a few months ago!!! Same tax wriet off.

    And you are right a loss is a loss and but a tax write off is mumbo jumbo rithmetic due to US tax laws. As I said they showed a huge turnaround in the auto sector.

    how many tax write off can you have in 4 months? we are talking a 77+ billion dollor loss,er tax write off You can have as many as the law allows. But in this case they only took one. See my first sentence above. I would also say it is almost impossible for a company, no matter how big it is, to have a 33 billion true loss. Lets get real here.

    ...how about the buyout to every single american worker

    Yea, they are offering buyouts to the guys making well over $50/hour (including beni's, I do come from a GM union family) so they can close unneeded plants and hire new workers at similar wages to those working in the competitors plants right here in the US down south. GM used to have 50% of the market, now they have 25% and needed to close plants but union rules would not allow closing of plants because GM had to keep all the workers on the payroll. To buy them out is the only way to close those plants.

    Anyway this forum thread was made for those of us who wanted to be in support of GM and discuss the issues that are helping them to succeed. Not have to defend GM against those who want to see it go down and use incorrect facts to make ther points. :blush: There are plenty of other places where GM haters can go and scream the sky is falling. :P
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...even a Toyota lover wouldn't want to see a large employer like GM go down and the resultant chaos in the economy. Big Steel collapsed over 20 years ago and many places still haven't recovered. Could you imagine the chaos in states in which Toyota has plants if it collapsed or packed-up and went back to Japan?
  • 1stpik1stpik Member Posts: 495
    "Anyway this forum thread was made for those of us who wanted to be in support of GM and discuss the issues that are helping them to succeed."

    Right on, man! We need to support our corporations, no matter what they do!

    See, GM lost $39 billion last year. Actually, the $39 billion wasn't a "loss," it was just a tax write-off. But it's still bad. Well, not really. It's actually good, because it shows that the company is growing. Well, not growing here in the U.S., but growing in foreign countries. But that's good for the U.S. because ..... well, just because.

    See, it's complicated. And you guys are too dumb to understand. So you need to shut up and go to another thread.

    .
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Not a "tax write-off", but "tax credits" that they hoped to use as a tax write-off but can't because there is a time limit on them. To use them they needed to make a profit, but they can't make a profit because too many people bought a Toyota.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    You or bob putz can put a spin on things all you want but a loss is a loss, How can you have the same exact tax write off just a few months ago ?

    Ummm. Toyo fanboy how about reading your post again. They reported it for the THIRD QUARTER ONLY!!!!! Now, when reporting YEAR END RESULTS, the THIRD QUARTER WRITE OFF is included in the YEAR END RESULTS.

    They actually lost less that $1 billion, (about $100 million on North American ops), but MOST of the ACTUAL LOSS was attributed to GMAC because of the housing crunch.
  • dinofdinof Member Posts: 106
    Anyone who was interested in the Saturn Aura Rocker Panel
    problems can read all about the latest developments under
    the topic: "Saturn Aura New Owner Reports" ,
    Rocky, Steelerman, 62vette please take note.
  • 1stpik1stpik Member Posts: 495
    Yeah, that $39 billion loss wasn't a loss, it was a tax write-off. If you don't know that, you're stupid!

    Wait! It wasn't a tax write-off, it was a tax credit. If you don't know that, you're stupid!

    Wait! The tax credit wasn't for the whole year, just for the third quarter. If you don't know that, you're stupid!

    Wait! The tax credit wasn't GM's fault, it was GMAC's fault. If you don't know that, you're stupid!

    Wait! It wasn't GMAC's fault, it was the "housing crunch." If you don't know that, you're stupid!

    In summary, GM's problems are OUR fault because we're not buying enough houses.

    If you don't know that ......

    .
  • toyota4lifetoyota4life Member Posts: 53
    Yea 1stpik, my thaughts exactly, we didn't lose 1/2 dozen we only loss 6. :lemon:
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    GM's third quarter statment is here

    for those who can't read it:
    Special items included a net non-cash charge of $38.6 billion due to a valuation allowance against deferred tax assets related to operations in the U.S., Canada and Germany as required under SFAS No. 109, Accounting for Income...

    the nearly 39 billion was tax assets (not real money) which could have been used if GM had profits to pay income taxes on. As you all know GM has not had any profits to pay income taxes on for the last few years, so the tax assets are worthless.
  • 1stpik1stpik Member Posts: 495
    Yes, the $39 billion wasn't a loss. Enron's .... er, I mean GM's report says it was a "special item." It was a "net non-cash charge." It was a "valuation allowance against deferred tax assets."

    Anyone who doesn't know that must be stupid!

    Anyway, since the "39 billion was tax assets," and "the tax assets are worthless," GM didn't really lose money. They simply committed $39 billion worth of tax fraud.

    Thanks for clearing that up.

    .
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Obviously you still don't grasp just what GM wrote off.

    However, consider the housewife with a $100 worth of coupons that expire today. Does she really lose a $100? Can she actually buy $100 of stuff with the coupons and no other source of money?

    If you can set aside the $39 billion of tax assets, then GM is more or less breaking even. This is not good, but is not as bad as they have been doing.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I found that the "tax assets" are a result of the money that GM lost in the past, as least in part. The assets do expire. If GM has to report them as lost money now, I assume that they must have reported them as earned money in the past. GM recently revised their statements going back to 2002, and 2005 is the big year for losses.
  • 1stpik1stpik Member Posts: 495
    Gee, so the housewife can let the coupons expire, then claim them as a loss on her taxes? Sorry, not a "loss" but a "valuation against deferred tax assets."

    Maybe all of us should revise our taxes back to 2002, just like GM. After all, none of us won the lottery, so we can all claim $10 million dollar "special item" losses, and get back all the money we paid to the IRS.

    I guess the old saying is true -- what's good for GM is good for America!

    .
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    I don't think GM is, or can, claim that as a loss for income tax purposes.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Man, was I wrong. Not "Oops, my bad" wrong. I was the-world-is-flat,
    man-will-never-fly wrong.

    I was 26.3-miles-per-gallon-in-three-ton-SUV wrong; and that's way
    wrong.

    GM has redefined what's possible for hybrid drivetrains, and the
    evidence is on sale in the form of the 2008 Chevrolet Tahoe and GMC
    Yukon, with plenty more models to come.

    Nobody but GM makes a hybrid full-size SUV, so the Tahoe has no direct
    competitors. The only question is how well the unique system works.
    Based on my test, the only answer is: brilliantly.

    GM calls the system a two-mode hybrid because it improves fuel economy
    both in city and highway driving. Other hybrid systems reduce fuel
    consumption in city driving, but have no effect at highway speeds.

    Incidentally, the 344 gallons of gasoline saved by driving a Tahoe
    hybrid rather than an Expedition or Armada is greater than the reduction
    in fuel use the EPA predicts by switching from a midsize gasoline-only
    Chevrolet Malibu to a compact Toyota Prius hybrid. If drivers got the fuel economy I experienced, their fuel costs would
    fall another $400 a year, according to the EPA calculator.

    After experiencing how well the system operates in a big, blocky
    full-size SUV, I can't wait to see the fuel economy it provides in
    smaller and lighter vehicles.

    When they arrive, my expectations will be sky-high. I've seen the
    future. I believe man can fly and GM can build a great hybrid. Now I
    want to see how far they can go.



    http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080221/COL14/802210312/1015/BU- SINESS02
  • madaxidmadaxid Member Posts: 1
    I have purchased the Astra 3 door XR. I am trying to figure out if I can get my ipod nano to function with the standard unit installed. Did your dealer mention the type of ipod support install, or what sort of additional hardware needs to be purchased? Maybe this upgrade kit has a name, cause I would certainly be interested in the same thing.

    Thanks
    Zack
  • chrisducatichrisducati Member Posts: 394
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    So, if we unrealistically assume the January numbers hold up for the year, that would work out to 160,000 Sierras and 430,000 Silverados. I guess $3 gas is weeding out the posers in the truck market.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Despite sales of its Tundra full-size pickup falling short
    of expectations in January, Toyota is not worried about meeting its
    annual objective.

    Last year, the Tundra's better sales months were in the 18,000 to 22,000
    range. But January's mark of 12,073 was well below that. On an
    annualized basis, that came to a 185,000-unit clip. That's well below
    the 200,000-plus mark Toyota has set for 2008.


    GMC was about even over last year with 13,200 sales and Chevy was down 6% with 36,000 sales.
  • jkr2106jkr2106 Member Posts: 248
    I know you said "unrealistically", but just to clarify, the figures in the article take into account that January is a slow month. So the yearly estimate (185K) that they came up with is still more than using January sales figures as average monthly sales figures and simply multiplying by 12 (145K). So, when they say Sierra figures were basically the same, we can expect about 205,000 Sierras again this year. And if Silverados fell 6%, still expect over 581K units by the end of the year.
  • toyota4lifetoyota4life Member Posts: 53
    :confuse: Can you name me one car that sells the same amount each and every month? dont worry ,i'll wait :sick: ..the bottom line is ,the tundra sales are up 90.6 %.,so read em and weep : :cry: .its nice to see you scrambling for a good story though :P
  • toyota4lifetoyota4life Member Posts: 53
    Top 10 Pickups Sales Figures
    Year-to-Date (YTD) Jan 2008

    Ford F-Series
    41,125 -8.4% YTD
    Jan 2008: 41,125
    Jan 2007: 44,919

    Chevrolet Silverado
    36,122 -5.9% YTD
    Jan 2008: 36,122
    Jan 2007: 38,393

    Dodge Ram
    19,902 -18.0% YTD
    Jan 2008: 19,902
    Jan 2007: 24,379

    GMC Sierra
    13,200 +0.4% YTD
    Jan 2008: 13,200
    Jan 2007: 13,147

    Toyota Tundra
    12,073 +90.9% YTD
    Jan 2008: 12,073
    Jan 2007: 6,321

    Toyota Tacoma
    11,064 -15.3% YTD
    Jan 2008: 11,064
    Jan 2007: 13,063

    Chevrolet Colorado
    5,797 +11.4% YTD
    Jan 2008: 5,797
    Jan 2007: 5,204

    Ford Ranger
    5,546 +19.2% YTD
    Jan 2008: 5,546
    Jan 2007: 4,652

    Nissan Frontier
    4,064 -15.7% YTD
    Jan 2008: 4,064
    Jan 2007: 4,820

    Nissan Titan
    3,692 -29.4% YTD
    Jan 2008: 3,692
    Jan 2007: 5,226
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Not sure what nice try means.

    Toyota introduced the vehicle a little over a year ago and it was ramping up production and volume. While the Jan '08 sales are well above the constrained ramp up volumes they are well below the average rate last year. If they were to keep on trend they would have sold about 15,000 vehicles in Jnauary.

    Of course one month does not make a trend. Even though GM was up last month and most others down most likely that will not be repeated this month.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    The new Tundra didn't start selling until February 2007, so the January numbers are going to look very impressive. Let's see how it does against its year-ago numbers in March.
  • ClairesClaires Member Posts: 1,219
    turn this into another Toyota vs. GM topic. The original post in this discussion states that "this discussion will be focused on how the company can improve, not on how much you may hate it and want it to fail," so let's get back to that.

    MODERATOR

    Need help getting around? claires@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

    Tell everyone about your buying experience: Write a Dealer Review

  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    12,000 + in a month??? Compared to the big boys, nothing plus 90.6% is still nothing.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    The original post in this discussion states that "this discussion will be focused on how the company can improve, not on how much you may hate it and want it to fail," so let's get back to that.

    Thanks for pointing that out. I never had read message one, but did now look at it and it states in part: "Whether you agree or disagree with the company's business plan, this discussion will be focused on how the company can improve, not on how much you may hate it and want it to fail."

    Seems like message one intent did not get translated into board title. Better board title might be: "How can GM improve - its products, desirability, reliability, profitability, etc.?"

    The present board title is misleading.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Title tweaked - but if Karen complains, we're pointing the finger at you LOL.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    How can GM improve - its products, desirability, reliability, profitability, etc.?

    I think if GM can get the Volt concept car functional, this would go a long way toward building the cars needed for the future.
  • dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    Agree. They also could use a more fuel efficient 4 cyl. engine (along with Ford). I understand they are looking at small turbos to boost fuel economy.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    That, and direct injection.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    General Motors will push harder this year to combine Cadillac, Hummer and Saab dealerships into three-brand stores in some markets.

    The automaker has urged a similar combination of Buick, Pontiac and GMC dealerships in recent years.

    "We want to run a little hard on our luxury side and see if we can't be a little more proactive, particularly in certain markets, trying to help dealer profitability by getting better alignment with Saab, Hummer and Cadillac," CEO Rick Wagoner said here this month at the National Automobile Dealers Association convention.

    The luxury channeling effort lags behind the Buick-Pontiac-GMC consolidation. GM has pared the Buick, Pontiac and GMC product lineups to the point that some single-brand stores would be difficult to operate. Buick's lineup, for example, consists of two cars and one crossover.

    GM officials say Cadillac, Hummer and Saab have broad enough lineups that high-volume, stand-alone stores would continue to do well in some locations. Those areas include northern Virginia, Washington and New York, Wagoner said.

    "But where we've got a lot of stand-alone Hummer and Saab stores, in a lot of cases we think it might make sense to move alignment," he said. "We are sensitive to the fact that the cost of doing business continues to escalate, and so it does suggest higher throughput is going to help them."
  • ccostableccostable Member Posts: 55
    GM has shown it can improve its cars and make them competitive in the market. This however is not enough. They have too many dealerships, and too many models. What is the point of the G5? Why isn't Pontiac your RWD only sport division? And whoever at GM thinks a sub CTS Cadillac is a good idea should be fired on the spot. They have a phenomenal starting point with the CTS to make Cadillac great again. They just have no idea on how to manage the brand. They also need to quickly come up with a small truck that returns some decent fuel mileage.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    A sub Cadillac is not only a good idea it is necessary for Cadillac to continue as a viable marque. By 2020 cars larger than the CTS will probably no longer be feasible w/o fines. Currently BMW and MB just pay these fines on most all their products sold here in the US. Not a big deal because they just charge the customer. However in the future I forsee our regulations not allowing this. Fines/fees will be much higher. There is talk of allowing trading of MPG "points" but these points may come very expensive. Only a few companies will limit themselves to only building small cars/trucks (Honda is the only one?, mini?, smart?).

    The world has changed and IF the democrat wins the presidency look for even more onerous MPG rules. Both have already said they want to up the requirements.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    The CTS proves that Cadillac can lose it's luxo barge stigma if it wants to. It is your almost quintesential large(r) RWD, powerful, in your face American car for a 3 series and C class price.

    Yet every article I read says the CTS is overweight compared to the same priced competition, ie the 3 series. And it is! It is bigger and heavier. So Caddy is in a no mans land of larger and heavier than its competitors. Maybe that is a good place to be? Maybe in the US. However every where else it is a large vehicle (maybe not Austrailia) and Caddy needs a smaller vehicle to compete. The FWD BLS is NOT a good competitor in Europe for the 3 series. It just is not.

    So the question I have will the Alpha caddy be 3 series size or smaller? Hopefully it will be the same size and have all the attributes to compete right onto the 3 in Europe with a decent price point. If it does the C class will also be within striking distance.

    GM is making the Cadillac a Global brand. It has to have the vehicles everywhere to compete with BMW and MB. I heard someone say make Saab the cheaper model to compete with BMW and MB. Not gonna happen. Am I incorrect or is Saab considered a premium marquee like MB in Europe? I do not think so.

    GM will have only two true global brands:Chevrolet at the bottom and Caddy at the top. Buick is basically NA and China, and the only reason it is in China is because of the history there. Buick will not become a true Global brand. It will be around a long time because of China. Pontiac is a NA brand only and it is the one that could be in trouble and dropped. Saab is NA and Europe and even there it is a low volume vehicle. Again Saab could be seen as disposable. Saturn is NA only and as we have seen it is basically pairing up with Opel. So GM has found a way to keep Saturn going at low investment. How about Opel? I have no idea but I doubt that GM would pull the plug on such a well known brand.

    As long as GM has about 25% of the US market and continues to expand globally as they have we will not see any killing of brands here in the US. It is just too darn expensive and with global engineering/parts sharing more efficiencies will be put in place.
  • xhe518xhe518 Member Posts: 107
    Exactly 62vetteefp - you said it much better than I did.

    Just FYI - the CTS is 191 inches long, the 3 series is 178 inches long, the C-class is 182.....there is room under the CTS for a "BTS" that would be the same size as a 3 series or C class - especially in any "world" market outside the USA.....or even here when gas hits $4 or $5 a gallon... it's a new paradigm.
  • ccostableccostable Member Posts: 55
    I'm not talking about a cheap car, I'm talking about a "premium" car that happens to be smaller than a CTS. BMW 1 and 3 series aren't cheap.

    I thought the Lucerne was a premium or mid luxury car that's smaller than a CTS.
    The BLS is a premium car smaller than the CTS, and they don't sell any.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    I thought the Lucerne was a premium or mid luxury car that's smaller than a CTS.
    The BLS is a premium car smaller than the CTS, and they don't sell any.


    Lucerne is a foot longer FWD car that starts at $27K. The CTS is a smaller car that sells for $34k. Completely different segments. Its like comparing an Avalon to a 3 series. Well kinda :blush:

    And yes they do not sell any BLS's here, and in Europe it has not sold well for a number of reasons and one is that it is just not competitive over there. FWD and not a real Cadillac.
  • ccostableccostable Member Posts: 55
    bumpy,

    I agree completely. You can see how interest/"hype" in a car falls off shortly after the introduction when there is no money to promote it. With the Aura, I saw reletively little about the G6 anymore. With the Malibu, I see very little about the Aura or even Impala anymore. All the models need some attention all of the all of the time and not the current on or off spigot.
  • ccostableccostable Member Posts: 55
    If Cadillac goes sub CTS, what's the point of Buick, Saab, Opel, or to some extent Pontiac (RWD G8)? Especially if Saab is getting the 9-1. And please dear god tell the GM guys to stop the talk of giving a 9-1 variant to Buick as well. Cadillac should be luxury you aspire to. Nothing else. Cadillac shouldn't fall into the trap of having a car for everyone. Let the rest of the divisions make up for the (ridiculous) CAFE requirements if you don't want to pass on the fines.
  • xhe518xhe518 Member Posts: 107
    MB and BMW are already in the sub - CTS space. Remember, the CTS is closer to the 5 series or E class in size, not the 3 series and C class... BMW just brought out the 1 series. MB has the A class and B class. If Cadillac ever wants to be a serious player outside the USA, they need something smaller than the CTS....I think as gas prices go over $4, even people here will appreciate a "premium" small car.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...I think Mercedes and BMW going too far downmarket hurts their image as did the Packard 120 and Packard 110 Six did to them. I seen some people posting as to why one should spend the money on a Mercedes C-Class with its hard plastic interior versus many nicer cars that are priced a lot lower that don't carry a prestigious nameplate. I think the CTS is as far downmarket as Cadillac should go.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    I agree with you (and Lemko) 100%. Cadillac should remain an aspirational brand, and the CTS is an excellent starting point. It would be a mistake for Cadillac to head down that same road toward lower-priced models. Shouldn't the lessons of the Catera and Cimarron be clear? If you can't afford a CTS, there are other choices within the GM family.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Yeah, how is a car a luxury car if everybody on the block has one? I could see this in the future. "My buddy who works at Wal~Mart just bought a new BMW 1-Series!" "Oh, yeah, well my girlfriend who's an assistant manager at Taco Bell just got a new Mercedes A-Class!" Pretty soon you can drive through any lower middle-class neighborhood and see Benzes and Bimmers where there were once Chevies, Fords, and Hondas.
  • ccostableccostable Member Posts: 55
    BMW has a 3 series and a 1 series because they have no other brand they would use to market those cars. Mini doesn't count because it's a whole different animal completely. If we're talking the EU, GM has Saab and Opel. They do have the smaller than a CTS BLS over there by the way, of which they sold very little. And their fuel is taxed way more than ours. And you can get it with a diesel. Why does Cadillac have to be a serious player in the rest of the world, right now and over night? They have other more well known brands in the EU. They have Buick in China. Now if we're talking the US, there is no reason whatsoever to dilute Cadillac to produce a smaller, profitable premium car. That's a sure way not to make a profit. They've been making those brand mistakes for years.

    The CTS proves that Cadillac can lose it's luxo barge stigma if it wants to. It is your almost quintesential large(r) RWD, powerful, in your face American car for a 3 series and C class price.
  • xhe518xhe518 Member Posts: 107
    I'm not talking about a cheap car, I'm talking about a "premium" car that happens to be smaller than a CTS. BMW 1 and 3 series aren't cheap.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...you can only make a small car only so luxurious to a point. What's BMW going to do in the future, revive the Isetta? "BMW: The Ultimate Microcar!" Sensible people will keep buying bigger and nicer Fords, Chevies, and Toyotas. Tiny Bimmers and Benzes are only for poseurs who are enamored of prestigious badges.
This discussion has been closed.