General Motors discussions

210delray

CAFE 35 = window sticker combined of only about 26-27 mpg. So it's not that tough of a target to meet.

circlew

Agreed...but it'll cost 'em margin and they are reeling because some (Read US) are behind in the strategy to loose some weight and add new tech.

Regards,
OW

aspesisteve

How does giving the CEO of GM a raise help company morale when they recently posted a $35B loss? How does it help the company get back to profitability?

I keep thinking if GW were CEO of a publicly traded company he would of been fired long ago, but then again he could lead at a place like GM. Exxon would love it.

cooterbfd

That number ($35 Bil) is an accounting number only. While it may be true that GM still lost money, I'd be willing to bet that the raise is due to the fact that he is turning the ship around, compared to where it was just 2 years ago. New products are out, getting rave reviews, and selling well considering the entire auto industry is in the tank, sales-wise.

210delray

Still GM continues to lose money, and when reporters ask Wagoner what his plans are for "turning the ship around," all you get is double-speak and weasel words. Kind of like when our Prez is asked a "tough" question. He is not a leader in the sense of past GM greats like Sloan. As for Lutz, well let's just say he seems to be losing touch with reality.

I don't know how much longer this can continue, with GM now apparently having to shovel boatloads of even more money to "help out" Delphi, still in bankruptcy after nearly 2.5 years.

One thing though in GM's favor -- Chrysler is in way more trouble. You'd have to living in a fairy land now to buy a Chrysler product, IMO.

circlew

You'd have to living in a fairy land now to buy a Chrysler product, IMO.

Outside of the Lamda's, CTS, trucks and Corvette, the same applies to GM. A huge amount of change left, IMO.

Regards,
OW

cooterbfd

Don't forget the Epsilon's, as well as the global RWD platform (G8??)

aspesisteve

re: "he's turning the ship" & "$35B is only an accounting number"

so you think he deserves the raise?

what ever happened to being rewarded for results?

It's like giving GW Bush a pay raise because his plan "will balance the budget in 2012" :surprise:

lol

cooterbfd

Well, reading an article, his "raise" is only going back to what it was in 2005. He had his pay slashed 40% for '06 and '07 because GM did so poorly. Do I think he deserves $2.2 mil. NO!!! A raise??? Yeah. Like I said, the results are rosier than the number displayed. They are getting alot of praise from the auto rags for the products they are putting out, and there is alot of excitement buzzing around the Chevy Volt project, which so far, SEEMS to be on schedule

62vetteefp

Outside of the Lamda's, CTS, trucks and Corvette, the same applies to GM. A huge amount of change left, IMO.

Come on. Here are a few more that get great kudos from the public and media. They may not be your favorite but they are at least competitive. And I will give you another hint. They all were based on the input of Lutz, hired by Wagoner to straighten out the product.

Malibu, Aura, Sky, Solstice, G8, SRX, and I would say not all the trucks are great now. The Trailblazer/Envoy are very old and deserve to fade away.

Whats left that perhaps do not meet the current competitive set? What I am trying to say is the below were designed before the current management changed direction. With the new direction under Wagoner all the new vehicles have been at least competitive.

Aveo-based on old architecture soon to be replaced with new architecture.
Cobalt/G5-based on old architecture soon to be replaced with new architecture.
HHR: same as Cobalt
Impala/GP/LaCrosse:based on old architecture soon to be replaced with new architecture.
G6: done before Lutz and soon to be replaced
Lucerne: a good car for it's segment which is dieing away. Again basically done before Lutz.
STS: same, done before Lutz.

That is pretty much it for volume vehicles. All I am saying is that since Lutz came in about every model coming out has been great. We may disagree but I look to the media for data.

The CEO has done a great job on getting the new product right, on globalizing the company in both product and engineering and reducing fixed cost. Who, 5 years ago would have ever thought the union would back off and allow them to be bought out and wages reduced to the level of the imports building down south? Not me.

I just read an article in the paper today about the dismantling of our manufacturing infrastructure in this country. Plants are shutting down and the machines and tools are being auctioned off to other countries. This is in all industries, not just automotive. We should actually be discussing how the heck the big 3 are staying in business as the rest of the countries manufacturing infrastructure is decimated.

circlew

I actually agree on the new Malibu and G8 but these are newer than the Lamdas so I left them out.

Finally! Now Camaro. These are nameplates that should have been developed all along. G8? How creative! Nice car but not made here.

The US manufacturing is getting mauled by Asia and Europe is as well. The problem IMO is that the biggies like the Big 3 were too slow to change. Arrogance breeds death and that includes the Unions.

Global change will force us to speed the pace of technological change in manufacturing...we will never see the mfg scale in the US we have experienced in the last decade. Just specialized higher value products.

Regards,
OW

62vetteefp

I actually agree on the new Malibu and G8 but these are newer than the Lamdas so I left them out.

Why would you leave them out? This subject thread is on why Wagoner's salary has gone back to before he took a pay cut. I would think all products that Lutz had a big hand in would be testament to Wagoner's pay. And from my side of the screen the products I described have been pretty much top notch and quite a change from pre-Lutz. And they seem to just keep getting better and better as time goes on. And the changes internally and externally have also been very positive. In fact the only area that folks here seem to be in disagreement is whether GM should cut more marques. And in that arena I can say there is a lot more to it than just cutting a nameplate or two.

scottimusprime

Here's my feeling on GM right now. They're doing a great job in turning the company around, but they still have a lot of work to do. GM is finally starting to put out products that people are interested in, and have style. The Lamda crossovers, the new Malibu, the new Saturns, the new CTS, the upcoming Camaro... these are all models that are getting attention and praise, as they should.

GM needs to keep it up. They really need to get replacements for their small cars ASAP. The Cobalt is nothing to write home about now, and is out-classed by the competition. They also need to step-up their game on Hybrids (which I've read they are). GM's current "mild Hybrids" are a waste, IMO. I have no desire to buy a Saturn Aura that gets me an extra 2 MPG.... hell, my Honda Accord gets better gas mileage without a hybrid system in place.

GM also needs to figure out if it needs all the nameplates it has, and what to do with them. Chevy is obviously their bread-and-butter mass-market brand. Pontiac is...uhh.... what, exactly? Does GM want it to be a performance brand? If so, they need to plan their vehicles around it. I don't see how the Vibe fits. I'm not entirely sure what niche Saturn is supposed to fill, but I'm so impressed with the company's new products that I'm willing to give it a shot. Cadillac struck gold with the new CTS and need to continue. Buick...uhh... well, the Enclave is nice, but you need more than one car to sell a brand. GMC...uh... needs to die. GMC is a prime example of badge engineering gone too far. Why even sell GMC when there are Chevy equivalents?

That actually brings up one of my biggest pet peeves - badge engineering. GM needs to diversify its portfolio here. Does the company like competing with itself? Why have 2 (or 3 or 4) versions of the same vehicle? GM may be getting smarter about changing sheetmetal, but it doesn't mean the company really needs all of these models. Why does the market need a GMC Acadia, Saturn Outlook, Buick Enclave and now a Chevy Traverse? They may look different, but that's just cosmetic. It's still the same car.

circlew

Just plain forgot but I did finally see one in a dealer and it doesn't look like a Chevy so that's really a great improvement.

The G-8 is not built in the US so another car with great potential because the packaging of this car is beyond GM right now.

The salary is what it is. Not my concern. I want to see great cars not what others income goes up or down.

Here is how I measure the performance of potentially the greatest auto manufacturer...If it were me running GM for the last 30 years, should I feel good or bad about my legacy?

I am glad it wasn't me. Obviously I agree the tide has changed.

Regards,
OW

circlew

Excellent post. Agree on all points and they are well taken.

Take Lambda CUV's for example. Make one with the choice of building it to economy, performance or luxury not 3 separate NP's.

Now loot at the 'Vette. The single most famous nameplate in the world from GM. It was almost dropped back in the '60's!!

Support the cars like the Malibu and Camaro and Impala that have been decimated in the past and support the hell out of them delivering quality value and excitement long lost.

Regards,
OW

dinof

When they build cars properly and stand behind their
warranties, then they will become GREAT again !!! :lemon:

gsemike

You look at the G8 and think 'hey, they're finally getting somewhere' and then you see this....



When are they going to get past this junk?

dieselone

OMG, that is awful. Gee, I think it needs a bigger rear wing.

gsemike

Wings like that mean performance to 15 year old boys. Everyone else laughs at them

roadburner

Wings like that mean performance to 15 year old boys. Everyone else laughs at them

My son is 13 and he laughs at them as well. I've taught him that it is much better to BE fast rather than LOOK fast. Sleepers rule!

cooterbfd

I've gotta ask.........

Are the spoilers any different to these kids today than the chrome valve covers and Crager SS's we had when we were younger?????

lemko

Yeah, and I see plenty of modded Civics and other subcompacts of questionable taste being driven by the young guys today. Heck, some of them have spoilers so tall, the make the one on a 1970 Plymouth Superbird seem modest in comparison.

I guess it's just in bad taste because the car pictured is a Pontiac. I'm sure if that car sported a Honda or Toyota logo, you guys would be calling it a styling tour de force.

fezo

Nah. It would look bad no matter what you put it on.

dieselone

The rear spoiler isn't the real problem. That G6 has a face only a blind GM loyalist could love. I don't car what badge is on the hood. G8 GT two thumbs up. G6 GXP: who hired the design school flunkie!

imidazol97

If it didn't have the grill pattern I would have thought it was a Civic, or Solara, or...

circlew

The G6 is another reason GM is in such bad shape. Non-descript products that compared to the rest, are really simply inferior.

The Malibu should be the guide for which ever divisions last in the old GM structure.

The G8 is Holden so Pontiac needs more help or dies. Buick, well, err....same story.

Many miles before I sleep...

Regards,
OW

lemko

Geeze, nobody's products are more nondescript than those of Toyota and Honda. They should all be finished in Maytag white and come with barcodes in lieu of nameplates and logos. They're the perfect sheeple mover! Whenever I see a guy in a Camry, I think, "That guy's afraid of his wife!"

circlew

So, you think the impala and old Malibu have an exciting presence? They are perfect examples of boxed trasnport.

Here is a REAL Malibu



Regards,
OW

roadburner

Are the spoilers any different to these kids today than the chrome valve covers and Crager SS's we had when we were younger?????

I'd say yes, at least with respect to the crowd I hung out(and street raced) with back in the '70s. My 1974 Monte Carlo was fitted with 15x7 S/S Cragars and L82 valve covers, but I had also installed the following:

Crane HT Cam
Edelbrock Performer Intake
Q-Jet carb(calibrated by yours truly)
Recurved Distributor/Mallory Unilite/MSD5
Blackjack Headers
3" dual exhaust with Cherry Bomb Q (Turbo) mufflers
B&M Transpak
15000 lb.Transmission cooler
3:42 Final Drive Ratio

No, it wasn't blindingly fast, but I was able to blow off 99% of the late model Z28s, Trans Ams and Corvettes that I lined up against. I could chirp the tires on both the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts at anything over half throttle. And EVERY guy/girl in our crowd had a car that backed up the looks with above average performance.
In contrast, I'd say that the overwhelming majority of the coffee can exhausted/winged/lowered cars are little-if any-faster than stock. I know that I've blown off more than a few of those losers with my Jeep Wrangler 4.0 5 speed. My son thinks that it's hysterical, especially when one of the kids performs a "Loser Fly-By" and gives us the finger... :P

roadburner

Here is a REAL Malibu

A bunch of my friends had 1968-1972 rat motor Chevelles when I was in school. One guy held on to his 1972 454 SS and now it's worth big $$$. He still lets me drive it from time to time.

circlew

You would have been a revered member of our crowd back in the '70's. There were posers and then the "Real Deal" guys with the hottest cars!

454SS...to DIE FOR! Serious Wheels, indeed!

I used to dream of own one of those Boyd Coddington rides...



Is this your car?

Regards,
OW

stever

Although I like white cars, I suppose our silver minivan is close enough to a side-by-side. Big twin doors and everything.

A 2' high bar code would be pretty fun to stick on the hatch. :-)

Avis will let you rent a GM flagship car now, at least in those trendy Miami/LA/Scottsdale spots. They already were renting the CTS in select locations.

roadburner

Is this your car?

Nope, aside from the S/S wheels and the rumble of the duals, mine appeared completely stock. The only clue in the interior was the set of gauges I had installed in the holes where the idiot lamps resided(wish I had a picture, they looked very cool).

dieselone

I see GM is recalling '97-'03 GrandPrix's and Buick Regal's with supercharged 3.8 for reported fires. I wonder why the ParkAve was left out.

fezo

Yeah, I used to have a silver minivan. Heck, no sense in trying to do one in red or black. You're not fooling anybody...

Now I'm cooler. I have sagebrush minivan. Mostly looks like dark gray but in the right light looks a deep bluish or greenish. Nice color but enough shopping cart dings and other assorted additions (?) to the paint it might as well be silver.

Gee, if I go somewhere for Easter week with the two younger kids a rented CTS could be just the ticket..... I think Mrs fezo would have a cow.

nwng

I rented a sebring convertible once with my wife & 2 kids. Kids didn't want to crawl back into the minivan anymore back home. Wife is now more sympathetic why I want to buy a used miata when the younger one is no longer in daycare

I have a sagebrush van too, but I don't think I had ever fooled anyone.

circlew

Wow, I had an'97 GTP. Never had a problem except that the key/shifter mechanism failed so the key could not be removed!

Regards,
OW

gsemike

Let's everybody be forthright on the question of the gaudy wings. All this talk about 'if Honda or Toyota blah blah blah' is moot. If anyone can find a picture of a factory hot rodded Toyota or Honda with such gaudy non-functional cues, then post it up here. Pontiac has been the only company that equates bumps and holes and wings with performance and they've been doing it for 20 years despite the fact that it just doesn't resonate with the public.

As good as the new G8 sounds, it's a crying shame that they stuck with the some old Grand Am/GTO/G6 beak. Familiar styling is good, but how about an evolution. The buying public has spoken that they like BMWs dual kidney bean theme, but they continue to evolve it each generation so that it doesn't get stale. On the other hand, Pontiac has a theme that is missing the mark and they don't change it for 20 years. Moving the nose appearance in the direction of the Solstice would most likely have seemed fresher.

btw: I used to have a beloved 70 Chevelle (small block car) and will dream about that SS tonight

imidazol97

>Familiar styling is good, but how about an evolution.

Got to agree on that point. It's become difficult to insert the familar dual grill that _BMW_ copied and gain a good appearance. It's a little long in the tooth.

Your suggestion for GM to improve is not to use spoilers on the rear like some other cars have and to innovate with new front end styling that hints at the dual grills or eliminate it, but the dual grills have worn thin.

imidazol97

Maybe this is the audience for the car pictured earlier:





Or should Pontiac have an _understated_ style like this for the GXP pictured:

imidazol97

Where are links for more pictures of this picture? I want to see the rear view of the spoiler...?

62vetteefp

Here is a whole forum dedicated to install a production SI spoiler on a Civic.

http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/do-yourself-articles/17643-installing-si-spoiler-- civic-coupe.html

While I personally would not have that spoiler on my car, that is probably due to my age. Seems lots of cars, all marques, have aggressive spoilers. To each his own and certainly not my place to judge others.

Here is a website with lots of Honda spoilers. Seems to be quite a market.

http://www.partstrain.com/ShopByDepartment/Spoiler/HONDA/CIVIC

Here is one right from Honda.
http://www.handa-accessories.com/civext01.html

Another

http://bigboys-customtoys.com/store/addcart.asp?prodid=%7B9111BB0F%2DA687%2D4376- %2DA07F%2DB0894660A1C8%7D

gsemike

Sure... you can get a gaudy spoiler for just about anything but that's not the point. Pontiac is the only company putting them out there on the showroom floor and saying it means poerformance (or at least excitement). The question at hand is how can GM improve the desirabiltiy of their products and one answer is to tone it down a bit. Even the G8 GT is more more toned down than all their other products but it doesn't sem that they're getting it top to bottom

sls002

If you can get spoilers for just about anything, then there must be a market for them. I see nothing wrong with Pontiac offering them as an option. As far as I am concerned, Pontiac's basic style is not something I like, spoiler or not. I did like Pontiac's style in the early to mid 60's. Since then I have have not been too excited.

roadburner

It looks like Pontiac heard my complaint about the lack of a manual gearbox in the G8- and they added more horsepower as an added bonus:

Pontiac G8 GXP





It seems that Pontiac has taken a page out of the BMW ///M playbook and only added minor styling tweaks to distinguish the GXP from its more pedestrian brethren. Good show, Pontiac! It looks like I might actually own a GM product- for the first time since 1986... :surprise:

gsemike

What the heck purpose does this serve???





How does this jive with their strategy of being the American BMW alternative? Didn't they just get burnt with the SSR? All this is going to do is lend a cheesey air to the G8 which is a shame because the sedan is nice and looks like a great deal. Nice going morons

imidazol97

Looks cool to me. At least it'll give the GM haters something to criticise as GM just gets better and better.

bumpy

CAFE. It counts as a truck. The Silverado SS may look like this a decade from now.

lemko

Since the G8 is sourced from Holden, it only makes sense they'd have a Ute - a model popular in Australia for ages.

gsemike

Ute - a model popular in Australia for ages.

But dead here for decades. Nobody wants these