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  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Well the '69 Malibu was pretty darn hot! As for the current rendition, *yawn*, we have yet another epsilon platform car - so what? The only different one I would think would be the Saab turbo epsilons. As for style and beauty, that pretty much went out for Malibu since say the earliest of 70's. It's gone, but not forgotten. :shades:

    -Loren
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Right on the money! Which one has the most"personality" for you?

    image

    image

    I chose the rear image for the '08 because it lacks from my perspective. The'70 SS Chevelle Malibu is a true classic. Perhaps someday GM can make the best again.

    Regards,
    OW
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    To me this is the coolest way to cut oil dependence. Take garbage that is filling up our landfills and turn it into fuel for $1 per gallon.

    We use about 400 million gallons of gas per day. The first plant can only make about 100 million gallons of E85 per year but later ones could make up to 400 million/year. About 375 plants would supply all we need (7 plants per state). Really depends on how much garbage we have! I would also guess that plant efficiencies will improve and fewer plants will be needed.

    I can see a couple plants near each good sized city and a bunch around large metro areas. In one side is the garbage from the city, out the other E85 in tankers going to local gas stations. No worry about pipelines going cross country which have cost and contamination issues.

    GM has invested heavily in this technology and has a huge number of vehicles out there that can use E85 and many more coming out all the time. With the first production plant available in 2012 GM will have a huge number of used vehicles with E85 capability and with gas at $6/gallon by then and E85 at under $2 will create high demand for GM used vehicles.

    GM is also investing in the process and could make good money from selling of the E85.

    Coskata Inc., a startup ethanol company, and its partner,
    General Motors Corp., are announcing plans to have a $25 million
    demonstration plant up and running in the Pittsburgh area by early 2009.

    The plant will turn non-food-based waste, such as wood debris and corn
    stalks, into about 40,000 gallons of ethanol annually, said William Roe,
    Coskata's president and chief executive officer.

    "It really is a one-of-a-kind, world-class facility which is being built
    where you can watch something like garbage come in the front end and fuel
    come out the back end in less than two minutes," Wes Bolsen, Coskata's
    chief marketing officer, said Thursday.

    The demonstration facility in Madison, about 30 miles southeast of
    Pittsburgh, will pave the way for Coskata to build a full-blown ethanol
    plant by late 2011. The full-scale plant would produce 50 million to 100
    million gallons annually, Roe said.

    Coskata estimates it can produce ethanol for about $1 per gallon, half of
    what it costs to make gasoline today. Roe said ethanol can remain
    economically feasible if it sells for about $50 to $55 a barrel, about
    half the cost of a barrel of oil.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Both models are flying out of showrooms almost as quickly as the automaker
    can ship them from the factory -- with minimal or no incentives.

    But dealers around the country are now struggling to keep the vehicles in
    stock as labor disputes with the United Auto Workers imperil production of
    both vehicles.

    "It's frustrating, you finally have a car that's competitive," says John
    McEleney, who owns Chevy and Buick dealerships in Iowa. "If a customer
    comes in and asks for a car I don't have, I don't know what to tell them
    with everything that's going on."
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Seems to be the case for the CTS as well. At least in my market. As I was closing the deal on my DTS, a woman comes in and asks the salesman who's with me if the dealership had any in stock. They sold out earlier that week.

    Looking at how things are turning out with the fuel situation, maybe I should've waited and got a CTS, but I wouldn't have made nearly as good a deal on one.By the time I optioned a CTS up to the level of my DTS, I'd have paid almost as much.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    The '08 Malibu is kind of bland compared to the 1970. However, you could put up a picture of just about any car from 1970, and it's going to make its 2008 counterpart look pretty dull and lacking in the personality department. There's only so much distinction you can come up with when you're dealing with the aerodynamic shapes of today's cars, as well as other regulations that weren't in place in 1970, such as pedestrian safety, side impact standards, uniform bumper heights, 2.5 mph bumpers, etc.

    Interestingly, one little shred of heritage that the '08 Malibu does retain is the horizontal body-colored bar that divides the grille. And if you compared that '08 Malibu to a run-of-the-mill 1970 Chevelle 4-door sedan, instead of an SS hardtop coupe, the difference wouldn't be quite so drastic. The '70 still would've had a lot more personality, but the 4-door design wasn't as sleek and coherent as the coupes.

    Now, if GM decides to slap some SS badges on the '08 Malibu, then they really need a good smackdown! :P
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I know what you mean. If I put my new DTS up against a 1969 Fleetwood, the '69 would blow it away. I don't think you'll EVER see cars as awesome as the 1968-72 GM A-bodies again.

    If you've read the article in "Collectible Automobile" a few issues back on styling cars in the 1970s, it pretty much explains the beginning of the end of unique styling.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Oh, it'll happen. I've seen the SS badge and a lot of others slapped on cars that didn't deserve it. Remember the "Quad-4-4-2?" Yeeeccchhh!!! Or how about "GTO" on a 1974 Ventura or "Road Runner" on the 1975 "small Fury" or "Cobra" on the Mustang II?
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    But dealers around the country are now struggling to keep the vehicles in
    stock as labor disputes with the United Auto Workers imperil production of
    both vehicles.

    Are they nuts? Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. Is it any wonder that GM sources production of various vehicles at non-union sites outside the US.

    Never hear of any labor problems when Honda or Toyota have a hot model vehicle.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    I know what you mean. If I put my new DTS up against a 1969 Fleetwood, the '69 would blow it away.

    On drag strip or at stoplight? In braking or slalom (Edmunds or R&T), would guess that newer DTS would very easily outperform the 1969. My impression of a 69 Fleetwood was a barge that plodded along the road barely able to keep out of the way of smaller and more nimble cars such as Firebirds, Camaros, Mustangs.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    The back end on the Malibu looks like a Suzuki Verona, and a lot of other less than exciting cars. Why Malibus would be flying out of showrooms is beyond me. Not a bad car - not much different than any other Epsilon car. It just is.
    Looks overpriced, considering Chevy resale values. Too each his own.

    -Loren
  • mjolnirmjolnir Member Posts: 2
    How much water do those plants use?

    Electricity?

    Do you simply dump garbage on the floor and come back in a week or so and it's magically turned into fuel, or are there resource consuming industrial processes going on inside the plant?

    Is there any chance that we're simply trading one kind of pollution or economic pressure for another?

    It's my understanding that ethanol production of any sort is a water intensive process. I live in the west, so that's something that needs to be looked at very carefully before we get too excited about E85.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I was talking strictly stylewise - like comparing that styling of the gorgeous 1970 Chevelle SS hardtop to the rather anonymous-looking 2008 Malibu sedan.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    My impression of a 69 Fleetwood was a barge that plodded along the road barely able to keep out of the way of smaller and more nimble cars such as Firebirds, Camaros, Mustangs.

    Actually they had something like 375 hp from the 472 engine, which gave it enough power to move all that mass with some authority. Now it's not going to take a big block Camaro or a Hemi Barracuda, obviously, but it would probably embarrass some of the more plain-jane V-8 models.

    I'm not sure how those big Caddies handled, but I had a '69 Bonneville 4-door hardtop for a few years. 125" wheelbase, about 225" long. It actually handled surprisingly well for something that massive. Now it did have radial tires on it...I imagine bias ply was standard back when it was new. It still wouldn't out-slalom any newer car, I'm sure. But it wasn't nearly as ponderous to drive as a car that size "should" be. I imagine it would outhandle the a '69 Fleetwood though.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    It's my understanding that ethanol production of any sort is a water intensive process.

    As I recall this process does not use much water. google Coskata for more info. but here are some sites.

    http://www.news.com/8301-11128_3-9913192-54.html

    Coskata's process and fuel is relatively clean, he added. Overall, it cuts greenhouse gas emissions by 90 percent, well-to-wheel (or stump-to-pump, if you prefer) compared with gas.

    http://coskata.com/ProcessAdvantages.asp

    The Coskata process uses less than one gallon of fresh water per gallon of ethanol produced, Perhaps it could use sea water or even sewage water!! Now that would be great. Use the effluent so it does not have to be treated.

    http://gas2.org/2008/01/15/more-about-the-coskata-process/
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Never hear of any labor problems when Honda or Toyota have a hot model vehicle.

    Why would they? They can always take their business elsewhere.

    FYI. American Axle on strike cannot supply to GM yet they can keep the parts going to Toyota.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    The new G8 looks pretty good. I would call that more of a new car than most of the rest -- that is new to USA. Pretty nice piece of auto there.

    BTW, has anyone ever been able to figure out what the Chevy motto of " An American Revolution " means? Does this imply the Japan took over the car market, and Chevy is crawling back out of the foxholes to fire away? I find it very strange. If they mean they have product which is newer than the World has to offer, well then, oh my-my. I haven't a clue. I would say an American Evolution perhaps is underway.

    -Loren :shades:
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    The same with the Enclave...

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    You beat me to it...slight mods and the tires burned for over 100 ft.

    Not nimble but commanding in style and power. That's how I remember Cadillac.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Yes, the US Auto industry has already burned in flames...now they must do what has been put off for decades...make cars people want to buy. K-I-S-S.

    Regards,
    OW
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    >American Axle on strike cannot supply to GM yet they can keep the parts going to Toyota.

    How is that done?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    >American Axle on strike cannot supply to GM yet they can keep the parts going to Toyota.

    How is that done?

    The salaried are making the parts for Toyota.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Looks like they are now after Ford. This should drive up Fords stock and GM will follow? He could not get GM so now he is after Ford. He is correct that they are at lows but will Ford really make it?

    That guy really wants to own a car company.

    Kerkorian's Ford bid marks a complete trifecta in bidding for chunks of the major U.S. auto makers.
    He was Chrysler's largest shareholder prior to its sale to Daimler in the 1990s. He also accumulated a big stake in General Motors

    http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/tracinda-bids-850-share-20/story.aspx?guid- =%7B976261D3-2795-442B-A3EC-0293F285F19F%7D&dist=msr_2
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    It's not like high gasoline prices surprised us.

    Americans rushed to swap their thirsty trucks and SUVs for fuel-efficient cars in April, making the month a turning point for the industry’s biggest segment shift in memory.

    The stampede to cars left in the dust a Detroit Three that simply weren’t ready for its magnitude because of their reliance on truck-based vehicles, while it lifted Japanese automakers whose traditional strength has remained in small cars.

    As U.S. consumers definitively reacted to $3.50-a-gallon gasoline, passenger cars outsold truck-based vehicles for the first time in at least 20 years. The move comprised a shift of six percentage points for the industry compared with last April, to 54 percent car sales.

    Product enhancements like the Hybrid Tahoe/Escalade looks like the wrong fork in the road so far!

    Regards,
    OW
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    As U.S. consumers definitively reacted to $3.50-a-gallon gasoline, passenger cars outsold truck-based vehicles for the first time in at least 20 years. The move comprised a shift of six percentage points for the industry compared with last April, to 54 percent car sales.

    Gas is $3.70/gallon ( $1.50 raise in two years) and reportedly going higher, yet we still buy 46% trucks in April? Large SUV sales are only down 26% or so in April and the economy sucks for most or perhaps it is only some. Something tells me there is a shift but it sure ain't much of one.

    The media is all over the fact that cars now outsell trucks yet no one seems to sit back and say, wow, almost 50% of us are still buying vehicles that get less than 20 mpg. It is going to take a bit higher gas price to say that trucks are dead.

    And once the cafe starts to kick in many of those 46% are still going to want their trucks so they will have to pay for the expensive hybrid vehicles.


    It's not like high gasoline prices surprised us.

    Surprised us? no, but it took 35 years to finally get to a point that really changed buyers habits. Whoops they changed their habits at least 2 times but always went back to their old buying habits. So we have gone thru this before but this time there is a chance it will be permanent.

    Absolutely right though that the domestics reliance on SUVs and trucks was a place where they do not want to be now but competitive cars are available at GM if you want one. They just need to convince the buyers to buy them.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Absolutely right though that the domestics reliance on SUVs and trucks was a place where they do not want to be now but competitive cars are available at GM if you want one. They just need to convince the buyers to buy them.

    Exactly. All efforts whould be on cars now, UNLESS the management believes we will go back to the $2.00/gallon days. Believe it or not, there are some that think this is a good bet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Regards,
    OW
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Dinosaurs seem to die off, getting caught out in the cold or rapid change. Was amazed at how long it took for Kodak to realize the digital age of photography had arrived. GM, Ford and even Chrysler, with its flash of newness, all seem to be tired, old and sleepy. Well that is with a few exceptions, such as the Corvettes. Mostly we have trucks, SUVs and dull looking, rental fleet autos to choose from. Some of the newer, somewhat fresh stuff, is looking a bit old, as design work to freshen hits the wall. I guess some may argue that the CTS is all new, or really updated, but to me it is just so-so, in that the size is growing and look is getting somewhat cluttered. The interior is refined now, but not its own look - not that it is not much more pleasing. Wonder if Kodak is using all SUVs for company cars :P
    -Loren
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Similar view from my side...Mustang, Malibu, CTS are bright spots. Lincoln has been informed that life support is no longer prescribed because all vital organs can not be supported naturally. Pontiac has an Australian Doctor, code Name: G8 managing the ICU...Buick the same with Dr. Enclave. GMC has signed on Dr. Enclave's cousin, Dr. Acadia from Washington State. Saturn is still confused and Chevy is the only survivor with a made in the U.S. Malibu and Life Saving Red-
    cross Corvette (if C6 can get 24 MPG, imagine a Hybrid Corvette). PU trucks are great but thirsty so the current climate will spank sales for the professional-grade set at the Big 3.

    Things keep changing.

    Regards,
    OW
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Exactly. All efforts whould be on cars now, UNLESS the management believes we will go back to the $2.00/gallon days. Believe it or not, there are some that think this is a good bet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Not sure it is a good bet but it is very possible. Maybe I am too old but have gone thru this twice. The sky is falling and whoops, Chicken Little was wrong.

    Also trucks still sell 46% in the middle of huge financial/real estate panic and the world is falling apart. Once things settle down in a year (the economy/real estate) look for trucks to go back up.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Sales of the CTS, an entry-level sedan redesigned for the 2008 model
    year, grew 16.4 percent in April. STS sales rose 3.7 percent.
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Don't forget that GM fooled with the engine electronics in the Cobalt and added a stick so it now can get 36 MPG HWY (new EPA guidelines) and the 6 sp auto is now available in the Malibu, getting it 32 mpg hwy.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Good points...hope the desire for the Cobalt is there but I have my doubts, as you know. I do see a lot of those micro cars out there in the last week.

    Regards,
    OW
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Yeah, but I bet they'll get their fair share of sales anyhow, whether it is from Civic/Corrolla, the Micros, and the Koreans.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Cobalt/Malibu and Impala retail sales keep going up.

    Chevrolet Car Retail Sales Up 24 Percent Led By a 147 Percent Increase in Malibu, 17 Percent Rise in Cobalt, 13 Percent Increase in Aveo and 8 Percent Hike in Impala Sales
  • cooterbfdcooterbfd Member Posts: 2,770
    Amazing!!! Unfortunately, truck and SUV sales have to drag everybody down.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Wow, that may match the 1998 Corolla I once drove. Cobalt is not a bad car value, in a base model for say $13 to $14K. Looked a bit dated when introduced however. Chevy needed a new car.

    -loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Hybrid Corvette? Say it isn't so. :(
    -Loren
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    As long as it gets 600 HP, ICE or H makes no difference to me! I would hate to give up the acoustics, however!

    Regards,
    OW
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    UAW workers go on strike at GM Malibu plant in Kansas.
    There goes the Malibu sales. While the Epsilon cars are
    all an improvement over the past vehicles, they do have to
    be produced to be sold. While the Malibu is a much improved
    car, I was less than amazed when I looked inside. From the
    early on photos, the interior looked more interesting than say
    the Aura Epsilon. Seeing it up close, and sitting inside the
    vehicle, I found it less exciting. Just another good mid-sized car.
    To have something a little different, one could look to another
    Epsilon, that being the Saab 9-3. It is a little more interesting
    perhaps. :blush:

    Too many boring cars and SUVs in this world to shake a stick at!
    -Loren
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    Seeing it up close, and sitting inside the vehicle, I found it less exciting.

    You're looking in all the wrong places.

    image
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    And good MPG to boot! I've been prepping my wife for years! Soon.......

    Regards,
    OW
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    When I first told my wife (notice the word "told") that I decided to buy a vette to replace my Ford Ranger she first asked how will the kids ride in it? I replied that we have a Yukon Denali and a crewcab Titan which they will ride in. She said they can't ride in the vette. I said they can't ride in the Ranger either so what's the difference?

    The logic of it all...
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    My wife owns her Denali which we use for the kids. Notice the word "owns". I ASKED her if I could buy a vette and she said" After you pay off the mortgage."

    Her Denali is paid in full. :cry:

    Regards,
    OW
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    That was an assessment of the Malibu interior, and not the Vette. As for the Vette, the new one is cool, but I still kinda like the C5 era cars.

    -Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    I would like GM to build a lighter, and less gadget filled Vette, with the 3.6 V6 engine and sell it for say $32K. The Solstice Coupe sounds good, but car seems claustrophobic and you won't be able to see to the back for passing. Have not driven a new Vette -- can you see to the back well, or do they have huge blind spots? While the doors on the C5 Vette seem high, you do not feel too confined and you can see all around quite well. Something of a smaller Vette, lower doors, lighter, and with a V6 sounds good to me. The 430HP is nothing needed, except for the straightaways on the track. GM has a 3.6 V6 making 300HP these days. That is overkill, at 300HP. If your right foot on the gas is your only ability in driving, you need to slow down anyway.

    -Loren
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Sounds like a Saturn Sky to me.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Exactly
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Nope, the bathtub is too hard to live in for driving, and they do not make a hardtop version anyway. The turbo 4 does have lots of HP though. I would never buy a Sky convertible. It has no roll bar, with no place to install an after-market one. The soft top looks kinda strange, like it was an afterthought. With the top down, it does look nice. Funny how you only see the head, and little neck of people inside those, as the huge doors rise to the sky. The brake is far to high in comparison to the height of the gas pedal. Very strange. The thick A pillar, with blind spots I suppose is something one lives with, when you buy a car these days. Be ever so careful in crosswalks these days, as new cars have an A pillar which could hide an elephant from being seen. OK, a little exaggeration there. ;) I would cry if I had to place a front license plate on a Solstice, or a Sky, for that matter, as it just looks out of place up front there. The exterior is a work of art. Simply two beautiful cars. Not really something I would buy, with a Miata as a better choice in the same price range. And the Solstice and Sky need to go on a diet to lose a few hundred pounds.
    -Loren
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    I would like GM to build a lighter, and less gadget filled Vette, with the 3.6 V6 engine and sell it for say $32K. The Solstice Coupe sounds good, but car seems claustrophobic and you won't be able to see to the back for passing.

    But, would a lighter Vette be less safe for occupants in event of crash/accident? Would it be an improvement or not.

    How does current Vette rate in front, side and front offset (IIHS) crash tests? In past, I have looked for Vette tests on Fed web site and could not find it. NBC has run videos of crash tests of various cars, suvs over the years, but I have never seen a Vette being crashed.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    You could not get the car much lighter unless you put money into more alternative materials. You could put in a smaller v6 engine but the price delta would be only a thousand dollars or so at the most and would never sell. Kinda crazy idea:V6 in a vette. I guess if they had to to keep it in CAFE they could but if you look at all the lux/performance expensive cars other than a couple (including GM) they just pay the fines.

    http://www.autoblog.com/2007/12/31/nhtsa-releases-06-cafe-fines-daimler-chrysler- -takes-cake/

    It looks like IIHS/NHTSA does not bother with testing the vette. It is self certified by Chevrolet.
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