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Continental Red Seal Engines were the number one industrial gas engine in the US for almost a century. They were produced in Musgegon MI. They had the market share in welding machines, forklifts, etc. They were even in Checker Cabs and Divco milk trucks for a while. They were so good that as late as in 1980 they had about 100% of the market share in forklifts. Their management and staff were all deer-hunting, good old boys from Muskegon. Everybody got along well and no one rocked the boat or had travelled more than 10 miles outside of Muskgegon. Problem was that even in 1980 they were still making a FLATHEAD engine!! Along came the Japanese with their far superior overhead valve, full flow lubication system industrial gas engines. The rest is history. End of story.
Same thing with Detroit Diesel. At one time they owned the industrial engine diesel business. Almost 100% of all log skidders, big forklifts, irrigation pump sets, etc.were powered by Jimmy diesels. Their nickname was "Ol Reliable". Some would say that the Detroit (or Deeee-troit if you want the correct pronunciation) 671 did more to win WWII for us than anything else. Problem is they were making a two cycle engine well after everyone saw the benefits to the contemporary four stroke engine. Along came the Brits with the four cycle Perkins (as well as Cummins, and CAT) and the rest is history. Detroit Diesel is no more.
Not to personalize this, but Rick Wagoner is the son of an upper middle clase southern family who played basketball at Duke. Duke even now is not exactly a school for hungry poor boys. Rick never was a PFC in a rifle company. He never even went to OCS. I doubt he ever had a paper route. No one should have expected someone from his background to have changed anything.
Gentlemen, it all begins with leadership. Without that what do you have?
I'd be more on your side if you brought up the argument of rewarding the D3s incompetence. :P
We have volumes of regulation for everything, it is that for several decades our government failed to enforce them when it came to securities and real estate. The two guys who could have done something about the freedie mac and fannie mae debacle (Barney Frank and Chris Dodd heads of the senate banking comittee) chose to ignore warnings from a certain AZ senator that there were major problems with these 2 organizations and that action needed to be taken back in 2006 to stop them both from hemoraging capital. That alone would not have prevented the recession but it would have made for a slower, softer landing in housing market which would have made the effects of the recession milder elsewhere.
As for a planned economy, sorry that does not work and never will. If we look at those bastions of economic planning the USSR, Cuba, North Korea and so on, we see how this fails miserably. The fallacy that economists like Keynes back in the 30's operated under and his modern day disciple Paul Krugman are operating under today is that the economy is a machine that can be fixed with wrench. The Austrian school countered this by saying that the economy is not a machine, but an incredibly complex eco system in which no one entitiy or individual can control because no one can fully predict the consequences of actions taken.
I would suggest some further reading:
The Road to Serfdom by Frederick Hayek
Vision of the Anointed, by Dr, Thomas Sowell
Both are great works which explain the fallacies and unintended consequences of government Economic Planning very well.
Our founding fathers were specific about the role of the federal government. Government's role is to play referee, keep the playing field level, and protect people against certain dangers, abuse and fraud. The rest is up to us, to be smart consumers and investors.
As a libertarian, I will never buy into the idea that 455 men and women sitting under a domed building in DC, along with one guy at 1600 Pennsylvania avenue can micro-manage the lives of 300 million of my fellow citizens. That is exactly what they are trying to do though in the name of protecting us from ourselves.
That explains much. I see none of the "B" cars are built here, either.
Here is an article that may explain how they make money at the plant, though:
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/06/26/officially-official-gm-to-build-b-segment-car- s-in-lake-orion-m/
".....The plant will also be able to build C cars like the new Cruze and possibly a Buick version of the Opel Astra. The Viva would be a B-segment car similar in size to the new Ford Fiesta. Powertrain components will also be sourced from GM's North American operations although no specifics have been announced yet. GM emphasized that this is the first car of this size to be built in the United States from any major automaker."
This is just an assumption, but that Buick version of the Astra may be the one slated to be exported to China from here.
Remember, too little involvement leads to our wonderful cratered roads that lead to rotten-tomato suspensions. On the other hand, too much leads to "Government Motors," which still has to build rotten-tomato suspensions because of our moonscape roads. :shades:
Unfortunately, you forgot to take into account China, which still has substantially more elements of a command economy than even Europe, much less the US. And now we're talking about them buying Hummer, and exporting cars here. Sometimes it DOES work. There's no "one-size-fits-all" to anything, including economics.
As a libertarian, I will never buy into the idea that 455 men and women sitting under a domed building in DC, along with one guy at 1600 Pennsylvania avenue can micro-manage the lives of 300 million of my fellow citizens. That is exactly what they are trying to do though in the name of protecting us from ourselves.
Agreed, but they seem to find sticking their collective noses into everything to enforce their particular ideology (whichever it may be) much more interesting than doing their actual jobs of enforcing existing regulation and maintaining infrastructure and all that.
Which gives us a bailed out GM and rotten roads both. :shades:
Thats a lot of Pizza Sauce, sorry could not resist the joke L:OL!!!
If the opposite of pro is con, what is the opposite of progress?
But when planned economy is mentioned, we don't evoke Norway or Finland or prosperous Switzerland or Sweden---or the truly mind-boggling amount of treasure stolen by thieves in American business---we evoke North Korea and the horrors of Stalin.
It's a strawman argument, and not a particularly sound one IMO.
As for GM, they were shielded from destruction by conservative US administrations, not by socialists by any means. Protectionism guaranteed the D3 a slow death, that's all it did.
GM could NOT PAY any of its workers, ever again, and it still wouldn't make any money. How much lamer a performance could a nationalized GM put in than that?
As for globalization, that was inevitable. Our economy is entering what Alvin and Hedi Toffler called "The Third Wave" the first was agriculture, the second was industrial and the third is information. Each transition caused a lot of turmoil. When in the early stages of industry there those who predicted we would starve because we were losing our "farming" base (sound familiar?) Food relative to income is cheaper and more diverse than it has ever been.
The transition to the third wave will not be "clean" and simple and there will be a lot pain in the short run, it is up to us as individuals to lean all we can and advance ourselves because one thing about this third wave, it is going to be up to us, and us alone to make it work.
Apparantly I am going to have to start teaching economics on this forum. The Scandanavian countries of Europe are not "planned" economies and not socialist countries either as both the left and right in the US media have inacurately portrayed them.
Ok a little Econ 101:
The US, Europe, Japan and Australia are all "Welfare States" to varying degrees. The definition of such being countries in which the economy is largely free market but proceeds are culled by the central government (taxes) to fund state sponsored social benefits and projects.
Socialism is a system of economics in which all enterprise is owned and operated by the State, all proceeds go to the state's coffer's and the state hands out the income as it sees fit, which describes Cuba, N. Korea, and former USSR
Communism is a system whereby all property and people belong to the state and the state can dispose of either as it sees fit. In Marx's vision people do not exist as individuals at all but merely instruments of the collective. No nation has ever actually implemented this in its entirety. The best actual example would be Borg from Star Trek.
Capitalism in its purest form has never exisited on a large scale and probably never will as there will be some need for state management of people. Hong Kong, pre-chinese control came the closest to your so-called "American" Model in modern times.
I am not going to try to convince you here, you have your beliefs and understandings and I have mine, now lets get back to talking about how to fix GM and just agree to disagree and leave it that.
But YEAH OKAY, back to GM, you're right...we are straying some here.
The last couple of days of posts on this board are fantastic. Much better than how to grind some functionally illiterate 35K per year car salesman out of the last $50 on the invoice.
But back to leadership for a second. GM had a much heralded product development czar, who may even have been a Vice Chairman. The guy made good copy: he was well dressed, silver hair, great watch collection (he was even profiled in Watch Times), a couple of ex wives, big estate, etc. He was a handsome, former marine (I don't dare say, "ex" marine) fighter pilot who would commute to work in his personal helicopter. He also maintained a stable of vintage fighter jets and landed one at least once without putting his landing gear down. The guy got a lot of press ink and even had his own blog for a while.
Lets see, what did this former BMW exec exactly accomplish? SAAB is gone. They were using Opel platforms and a four cylinder engine developed back in the 60's to compete with the German Big 3. Saturn? Gone. The Corvette? OK, a certain kind of upper blue collar guy likes them but no one ever cross shops a Porsche or a BMW against a 'vette. Pontiac/Buick/Oldsmobile?? Who??
While dealer development wasn't in his portfolio, did the GM dealer body get any better while he was on board? This is important because I don't think anyone is going to bring the upper middle class back to GM until the dealers adopt more contemporary standards towards consumers. You buy a Volvo and you know that you stand a fair chance of being treated decently. Buy a GM and you probably wouldn't even get a thank you note from the dealer principal. You get the idea. It was largely smoke and mirrors with zero accountability.
Well in high school I drove a divco milk truck, clutch and brake one pedal.
Your theory is right on diversity or lack of was and still is the problem.
I have little faith in any of the late "Big Three" We are practically on our way to third world status.
It seems to me they had someone to make them up a very good business plan to get all of the taxpayers money and file bankruptcy anyway!
Our so called BIG 3 got to big for their own good. YES I think a company can be too big ! The best thing a BIG company can do is buy out smaller companies and shut them down ASAP, this forces buyers to go to the bigger companies. If you spend billions of dollars and have to deal with foreign governments and unions and tax laws etc then what you gain......some minor tech stuff on new engines.....is a loss and not a gain !
Another problem is that todays makers have made the same vehicles (SUVs) and wrongfully believed that they could sell millions more by adding 6 inches inside or leather seats and charging $10,000 more for a different named SUV ! We dont have small, medium and large SUVs....we have super small, almost small, small, a little bigger then small, super small medium, small medium, medium, extra medium, small large, medium large, large, super large and Barge Large SUV's ! Come on !
I say get a auto person to run a auto company, cut the models down to what the different models are, spend time to correct and update the models and make them something people would want and be proud of. There needs to be a difference between makes...we all know what a 59 Caddy is just by looking at the tail fins, we know what a 57 Chevy is by looking at the rear quarter panels and we know what a 57 T-bird is by looking at its top with port holes !
Thats what we need today, thats what will bring buyers back to the dealers, thats what will have ships taking American cars to foreign shores again !
IMHO...that is !
That is a good point there. Change of a corporate culture must start from the top and find its way down to the shop floor.
I've DRIVEN in Europe on those very roads, mainly Brussels and Amsterdam. Lots of cobblestone on vehicular roads in London as well.
Agree that the autobahn is superior. IMHO the reason Euro suspensions are so taut and good at high speed is due to the autobahn. Caddy's (especially the old ones) would bounce and fly (or at least rattle themselves to death) at the speeds the autobahn enables. Not like my previous Audi or even a VW.
Well we had Ford running Ford, and Wagoner running GM. Both leadership FAILURES, and both auto persons. At least Ford was smart enough to realize he was the wrong guy, unlike Wagoner. So now we have Mulally, a NON-AUTO guy, and he is doing the best. The other auto guy, Wagoner, is history and his company is a disaster. And he was in charge as head of NA operations, followed by CEO, for about fourteen years.
So I have to disagree with your above statement.
My latest "Buy American" effort was to find a domestic car for my daughter. I'm a GM fan, so I went to Chevy, Pontiac, and Saturn. At Chevy, I looked at the Aveo, Cobalt and Malibu. The Aveo is built in Korea, the Cobalt costs about $2k more than a Honda Civic and the Malibu would have cost me $2k more than a comparable Accord. No sale.
I next went to the Pontiac dealer and found the G3, G5, and G6. The G3, like its twin Aveo, is made in Korea. Although the G5 and G6 were priced competitively with their foreign counterparts, they're both going away when Pontiac disappears next year. Huge incentives made them a definite maybe.
Next stop, Saturn where we looked at the Astra and Aura. Same problem: Astra made in Belgium, Hungary and Japan while the Aura was too expensive relative to the competition.
I next went off the reservation a little and visited a Ford dealership. The $19,800 MSRP on a Focus was all it took to send me packing. That same money buys me a base Accord or Camry, so why would I even look at a Focus?
So what did I do? I went back to Saturn and bought the Astra so that I could at least get an American-branded car. I paid less than I would have for a Honda Civic, but only because Saturn's uncertain future resulted in BIG incentives. I hope the quality and resale value hold up.
Two of our four cars are American branded: Pontiac G6 and Saturn Astra. My Mercedes C350 cost me at least $5k less than a comparable Cadillac CTS when I bought it. My Honda Odyssey originally cost about $5k less than the Chrylser T&C and is still worth more today. The last US car that I didn't have to make major concessions on value and quality was an 05 Corvette Convertible. I looked into buying a C6 coupe last month and found that the MSRP had risen by $5k since 2008 with no significant improvements. Why?
While I was at the Pontiac-GMC-Buick-Cadillac dealer, I couldn't help but look at the CTS because I love the styling. I almost fainted! $50,000+ for a CTS? Are they nuts? On the same lot where they were selling the 09 CTS for $50K, they were offering loaded 08 models for $28K and had 5 loaded STS in stock for $31K. Don't they see this as a problem? I looked at the Enclave, Acadia, and Yukon as possible replacements for our Odyssey. I was incredulous to see that all three had risen in price significantly and incentives were down. I couldn't find a well-equipped Acadia/Enclave for less than $45K. There wasn't a single leather-seated Yukon for less than $48. Although far from directly comparable, the C/SUVs do essentially the same job as the Odyssey. Why do they cost from $10-20k more than a loaded Odyssey? (I won't even mention significantly lower resale values). A more direct comparison to the Honda Pilot and Mazda CX-9 still yields at least a $5k difference. Does patriotism demand that we pay more for less?
There are many Americans out there trying to do the right thing by supporting American companies. Unfortunately, we're finding that GM seeminlgy has no interest in recovering. Why do I say that? Because the last thing a company should do when it is on the brink of extinction is to jack up prices. I'm not sure that GM qualifies as a domestic manufacturer anyway. I mean, who's more American? GM (who builds half its cars in Mexico and Canada) or Toyota (who builds most of its US cars in places like Kentucky and Tennessee). Heck, even Mercedes builds most of its trucks in the US.
If GM wants to survive, it must offer good products at reasonable prices. It will probably also have to rely on the American desire to support our fellow citizens. I don't care if factories in Mexico close. I do care when factories in Lousiana and Michigan cease operations. Build me an American-made CUV at a reasonable price and I will buy it NOW. Build me an American-made sports sedan at a reasonable price and I will buy it NOW. Build me an American-made sports car at a reasonable price and I'll be out of money from buying the first two, but I'll buy it soon...
Did you actually talk to the salesman and ask about pricing? $1500 on Cobalt with a $1000 loyalty on top of that for your GM car ownership. At Honda you'll be looking at lots of addon prices on top of MSRP and an attitude from the salesman that if you don't want to pay it the next person in the will.
The Cobalt does lack some things from Hondas. There's almost no road noise, even compared to our two leSabre Limiteds, and the wind noise is nonexistent and the ride doesn't hurt your kidneys but is well-controlled and suitable for a drive to Nashville from Dayton, e.g. I just bought one yesterday after I test drove and was surprised at the ride compared to other cars of the size group. I realize that others want a car that may turn corners faster or do mountain driving like Highway 28 in W. North Carolina and I respect that. I had a Mustang once with heavy duty suspension and wide tires.
>almost fainted! $50,000+ for a CTS? Are they nuts? On the same lot where they were selling the 09 CTS for $50K, they were offering loaded 08 models for $28K and had 5 loaded STS in stock for $31K. Don't they see this as a problem?
Did you actually talk price with a salesman? $1500 + $1000 loyalty. You'd probably find them much more anxious to move a car by negotiating than you local Lexus dealer or BMW.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Unfortunately, it's built in Mexico, but at least that's North America. :shades:
Did you actually talk price with a salesman?
Why is it that they can't put the actual price out there? Oh, that's right, to make people feel like they're getting a good deal: "See? It normally sells for this, but you get it for this!" Except that so does the rest of the country. Oh, and it's also an accounting trick to move some of the cost of the vehicle from the manufacturing budget to the marketing budget.
Problem with that strategy is that consumers have wised up. They compare apples to apples: MSRP to MSRP. And GM's MSRP, as noted, is way high compared to other manufacturers, particularly for what you get.
Yes, I spent some time at the dealership talking with the salesman and the general manager (I've bought cars from them before, so they know me). They were no more excited about the prospect of selling $50K Cadillac CTSs than I was about buying one. Even though the Cadi has some incentives on it, it still costs you more than the BMW which also has incentives on it (and that's before you factor in the BMW's free maintenance). As far as the Mercedes C class, you can't even make it cost $50K with every option (specialty versions exlcuded).
If the Cadi came fully equipped at $40K, then I'd strongly consider it for its superior size and American brand name. However, I'm not going to pay $5K more for a car that I'll have a harder time re-selling and pay more to maintain while I own it. The real bottom line of my post was that GM is RAISING prices at a time when they should be doing whatever it takes to increase sales. I want to see them succeed, but not at my expense...
Did you know that the CTS is the same size as the E class, not C?
To some degree what you are seeing is the labor cost disadvantage that the D3 have had to deal with. Whenever they try to match the engineering and materials quatlity of the Japaneese and German hardware they end up costing more money. The only way I see the D3 gaining a price advantage, matching the quality of the foreign competition and making an actual profit is to relocate lock, stock and barrel below the Mason-Dixon Line and abandoning the UAW strongholds in MI and Ohio where lower labor prices would allow them to match the competition and be able to sell the cars for the same or less money.
50K for a CTS? Wow I do not see it unless it was a used "V" Especially when you could go down the road to the Hyundai dealer and get a Genesis V8 for a hair over 40K loaded to the gunwalls with everything including a stiched leather dash and more interior space.
In fact 50K would put you in the seat of a Lexus GS V8 or an Infiniti M45 V8 I can't see paying more for a V6.
One thing that no one has brought in the American vs Foreign discussions is buying a used car, which I always do (I really think a 2-3 year old well maintained used car is a better deal than a brand new one) The way I look at it when I buy used, it does not matter what make it is, the money I pay goes into my local community in NC and not to Detroit, Toyko, Munich or Stutgart.
To iterate, did you talk actual price with cash back and loyalty?
And you say you have GM card credits! Great. That lowers the price even more.
I'm looking at the Direct Injection Rear Wheel drive and it's $35.5 with $1500 taken off. Take off $1000 for owning a GM car. Then add on the options. I don't know which option packages to add in for the common dress of the car. But you've got $15000 of options to add on; that's a lot of options to get to the $50000 you mentioned.
Toyota GS 470 is $53000 base/TMV $50222 WITHOUT any option packages.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
To re-iterate: why does it start so goofusly high to begin with?
Unfortunately you are wrong. Honda sells accord below invoice with negotiations over e-mail. I leased vette for 3 years, but horrible GM service and horrible attitude of salesman moved me to German car. GM car? no, thank you, never!!!
Good point, I hate the whole negotiation thing for a car. I used to sell cars many years ago and I never felt good about it. Doing a good job meant basically conning a customer and that never sit with me, I left the business 6 months later.
Cars should be sold just like any other appliance a set price, that a "store" may be willing to match of undercut, if the exact same model were advertized cheaper
I know some people get thier jollies going to a dealership and giving them a hard time over 50 bucks, but me I have better things to do than sit there for hours arguing about a price.
My approach to car buying is very simple, I do my homework, check the invoice, check the holdback, work a figure which gives 500-1000 (depending on the car) to the dealer, I go in with the figure on a sheet of paper, hand it to the sales person, and say "this is my number, I only want to hear yay or nay, nothing else, if you try counter-offering, I bid you good day and find another dealer to do business with, If you have to go to the manager, that is fine, you have 10 minutes, and then I am leaving, I reinterate, no counteroffers, no BS, give one of the 2 responses, if it is yay I will give you a deposit right now and a check first thing in the AM for the rest end of story."
Not to mention, all the luxury competitors in this price class can be optioned to at least $48,000.
Both the C class and 3 series are far smaller than the CTS.
The CTS gets by on 87 octane, the others take "hi-test"
If you consider the Panama-Colombia border to be the dividing line between North and South America, there are 23 countries in North America. Some people think that Mexico's border with Guatemala and Belize is the start of Central America but I think the geographers consider Central America a subset of North America.
They advertise on the tv in my area.
For example, new 2009 Malibu advertised for 14,900.
New Fusion for 14,900.
New Cobalt for 12,900.
New F-150 for 12,900.
So only those without tv don't know this.
There are catches when you go in. My 14,900 Malibu became 18,700 when I went to the dealer. There was $2000 for having a current GM lease that I couldn't get. There was the dest charge and there were options. Then there was about $700 of Lie in the equation. It was still a good deal. My GM card earnings would have me at 15,115 plus tax with no trade that day. About the price of a stripped '07 Civic with 20,000 miles on it.
Since then, one dealer has offered better once, but incentives are falling and tomorrow they may fall again. From the best deal I was offered, the car is up by 1250 as of today. With Accords being offered at 3124 off sticker, you can make the same argument about Honda's pricing. It takes 3124 off the base accord to get down to 18,366 plus tax, so I am still ahead by most of my GM card earnings to go with Malibu at 18,900-GM card =15,400. Not sure the honda includes dest. charge at 18,366.
If one is going to spend 40-50K and cry about premium fuel, they can't truly afford the car to begin with :shades:
Can GM prices ever be mentioned without some big incentive scheme? Loyalty this, employee pricing that. If I was in charge of GM I'd dump all of that garbage. Just price the things.
When the sleek Mercedes was relatively new, I saw an SLK-55 at the local Swifty gas station and the driver was putting in his own fuel. Really looked out-of-place. In this area Swifty is a chain with a reputation for buying junk fuel. That reputation may or may not be deserved today, but I rarely have bought at their station even if pricing is substantially lower than others in area because of it. I certainly wouldn't feed my Mercedes there.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
When the sleek Mercedes was relatively new, I saw an CLK-55 at the local Swifty gas station and the driver was putting in his own fuel. Really looked out-of-place. In this area Swifty is a chain with a reputation for buying junk fuel. That reputation may or may not be deserved today, but I rarely have bought at their station even if pricing is substantially lower than others in area because of it. I certainly wouldn't feed my Mercedes there.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I'll agree with the prestige factor, but the base C and 3 are not only smaller, but have much less powerful engines 228 and 230 respectively, as opposed to 263. And yes, the CTS starts at $36K, as opposed to $34K for the C and $33 and change for the 3. HOWEVER, when you bump up to the top of the line RWD versions, the CTS starts at $38,860 while the C jumps to $39K, and the 335 is over $40K. These versions give you the 300 (304 in the CTS) hp engines, except the C, which is 263. That levels the playing field some (although the 335 handles better due to it's smaller stature and pedigree.
".....Can GM prices ever be mentioned without some big incentive scheme? Loyalty this, employee pricing that. If I was in charge of GM I'd dump all of that garbage. Just price the things."
I'll agree there too. Go to a Saturn style pricing, no haggle. (Or like their "Red Tag Sale") The price you see is the price you pay!!!