General Motors discussions

62vetteefp

Is Nissan doing that poorly? Everything seems to be hugely rebated for a japanese brand. From $500 on a pathfinder to $1500 on a Maxima to $2750 on a titan.

Even Toyota is rebating. $500 for a Corrolla to $1500 for a Camry to $3000 for a Tundra. All current 2006.

fintail

I was actually thinking that too. It beats my more sarcastic ideas.

m1miata

The Cadillac B uy a L ittle S edan project looks like a good fit for the US market. Sell the little guy for under $25K with a good engine like the 3.6 V6 and ya gotta winner. In the USA it may be the BTS or B uy T he S mallest model. If they price it at $27K or higher then the market gets more crowded. If the Saturn Opel is going to be around $25K, not sure where this one fits in. The CTS is now starting under $30K.

Loren

plekto

http://www.hortondome.com/dome/
Really huge - really gigantic - towering over your neighbors boxes, just because you can create what they consider an out-of-place structure(screw conformity and tract-homes, I say - lol)

And they cost 1/2 of what a typical home does, though this one is a bit overkill in all aspects, being a house/dome hybrid.

62vetteefp

That is why Lutz said that the car does not fit in the US yet. BLS would have to be priced closer to $30k and squeeze the CTS. Perhaps they could price the BLS around $27K to $34K. Build a more loaded CTS starting around $31k to $36K? Just do not build a "stripper" CTS. Would hurt CTS volume though.

62vetteefp

Perhaps after the new CTS is out? Need to get the science out out the interior and use traditional grains and implement all the new interior fit/finish/materials improvements that Lutz brought in.

Then bring over the BLS based on the new Epsilon 2 which can be AWD. Supposed to be a little 3 series type vehicle. We will see what the European press thinks about it.

grbeck

I'm guessing:

"B" - smallest Cadillac.

"C" - (CTS) next-smallest Cadillac, and smallest Cadillac for America. This takes over for the Cimmaron and Catera, although why GM would want a nomenclature that even remotely reminds anyone of these two duds is beyond me.

"S" - (STS, SRX) midsize Cadillacs. This takes over for the Seville.

"D" - (DTS) biggest Cadillacs. This takes over for the DeVille.

fintail

I think that's not a bad idea. I don't mind the looks of the BLS, moreso than the CTS anyway. Seeing how the markets have developed, the Euros will probably get a decent little car we'll never see here.

Euros love their 3ers though, that's gonna be a hard act to follow.

sls002

Your right about the letter series lineup. It does show the inconsistency of the lineup though, with the D-series largest. You did leave out the X-series, the XLR.

xrunner2

The Cadillac B uy a L ittle S edan project looks like a good fit for the US market. Sell the little guy for under $25K with a good engine like the 3.6 V6 and ya gotta winner.

If $25K or under, and IF everything else (fit/finish, interior, engine, trans, handling, etc) checks out, this would be a fantastic offering for customers in US. Want to test-drive a Honda Civic SI sedan next fall, but would want to consider this baby BLS also if GM were to bring to US and it had decent handling/engine.

A lot of old-timer Caddy guys and golden seniors will probably not be able to handle the thought of a baby Caddy nor a "4" cylinder engine in a Caddy.

m1miata

Since it is FWD, I take it to be an Audi and Volvo competitor. As for price, it should be under $25K and the CTS should remain around $30k WITH the 3.6 V6. Currently, it is less than a value. Heck, you can get a Hemi Chrysler 300, for less than a lot of CTS Caddies.

Loren

giantkiller

I think it means Big Load of Sheet Metal.

m1miata

Did you say four cylinder? Maybe for around $21K or so. And no turbo. Looks better than the Cimmeron. Come to think of it, you see those around still. Some had the 2.8 V6. What a powerhouse! :P Actually, in its day not too bad a little car, but they insisted on charging so much more than the other Cavaliers.

Loren

atlvibe

Local Metro Chevy dealer runs ad claiming to have massive amounts of Lexus, Honda, BMW and alike. Shows dealer with small import line up. What a shame. This dealer once advertised GM products and location. Now he advertises that he is a Used Import dealer. To me the translation is that he is not selling much GM product. Looks like styling has not saved GM here.

m1miata

B itty L ittle S eville, the new BLS. Could call it the CTS 3/4 or .75. I take it the new Saturn Aura (not affiliated with Olds.) fits the slot of the BLS for sales here, though I can't see buying a $25K Saturn FWD car, but that's just me. Too close to real RWD cars. Heck a GT Mustang, or for under $28K you should be able to get into a 300 Touring. Maybe a Maxima, with the discounts they have now would be around $25K-$26K. Anyway, a Saturn is one I think of as car in the $20k bracket. Maybe it needs the Opel name on it to give it that Euro flare. Or maybe not, Opel Catera was a flop. Actually, the Saturn was suppose to be a plastic car to park in parking lots and survive. Now it is just another car - importer. Then they get the Sky. Oh boy, yet another small convertible sports car. What they need is something larger for larger Americans, with a trunk and in a coupe' form. The Miata is a perfect performer for back roads, and is not selling that fast. The Solstice looks better and is selling well. The Saturn will take away sales of the Solstice and Miata - big deal. I like the looks of the Solstice coupe'. Size is a bit small, but it is perfect for what it does. Still, a larger one would make a perfect car; say something like the Z4 in size. The new Camaro is too wide and too fat, though the muscle car enthusiasts may not care about the dimensions.

kodename

Miata has been around how many years now? Soltice may take some Miata sales , but not that many.Will Soltice sell as well in 10 years as the Miata has? I REALLY,REALLY doubt it. Following GM's marketing plan it will be milked, then overproduced, then dropped once and for all. And that's assuming the car doesn't suddenly become plagued with defects,recalls or lousy engineering as the Corvair & Fiero were. GM's track record on 4 cylinder "sporty cars" is nothing GM marketing managers want to talk about.How can you blame them? Bill C.

kodename

The time is right to bring back the El Camino. I'll leave it up to you "experts" to decide which chassis to build it from and wheather is should be small , midsize, or fullsize.(RWD) No, it probably won't sell 200K units per year , but it would get noticed and be a positive for GM. They'd have a market all their own at least for a short time. Build costs wouldn't be too high as they would have to base it on some exsisting chassis. Lastly , for christs sakes , don't make it look like a Mazda(ala' GTO)or some other such rubbish. Take a hint from Chrysler and make it scream red,white, & blue. Bill C.

imidazol97

I agree the El Camino or similar retra would work. It probably would be better than the SSR. If Honda can sclep out the Ridgerunner or whatever it is, an el Camino would work for me. A GMC Sprint with 454 type power would be great.

massdriver1

An El Camino would be aewesome. I posted this a while back, but I think a line of Rear wheel drive Chevies would definitely get noticed, and sell very well/
A Sedan to compete with the 300/Charger. It must look American, but not be as huge as cars of the past. I'd even call it the Bel-Air. They could also use the platform for a stylish coupe, bigger than the Camaro, more of a "touring coupe", what the Monte Carlo should be. Also, a wagon (Nomad?),and finally an El Camino.

socala4

Not sure whether or not they would be popular, but either way, neither GM nor Ford would have to look very far to find this car in their current line ups.

This body style never went out of style in Australia, they call these "utes".

GM's version: Holden Commodore ute

Review of "sport utes": Ford Falcon XR8 vs. Holden Commodore SS

m1miata

Yes, indeed the El Camino is one fine looking car / truck. I think my old buddy still has his '75 or there abouts, El Camino. They looked sharp then as they would now. I have seen other attempts, yet this period just got it all together for a car/truck. Something retro should work -- Build it.

Another car, I personally think would be cool, for all the those HHR fans, is the HHR truck. Same front as the HHR, with a truck bed. Price is slightly under the HHR wagon, and also sell them as a pair for $2K off (priced as pair). Build it.

Loren

imidazol97

That's a neat idea. It would compete for buyers with el Camino and Sprint sales of retro vehicles. The utility of that type would attract a number of buyers for the ability to haul small and not so small items.

I don't know how many pairs of HHRs would be sold, but it would be great brand advertising! I can see the ads now. Oprah could give away pairs on her... no bad idea now that I think about it. grin

62vetteefp

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060313/AUTO01/603130350/1148-

imidazol97

Think this will get as much press as it would get if it were GM/F having inflated by 10% approx.????? NOT.

If it were GM/F I can see the news this evening with a talking head on local news having a special report from their newsroom about the awful deception. I'll watch this evening.
I'll send them an email link to be sure they know about it in the 3 stations.

xrunner2

I agree the El Camino or similar retra would work. It probably would be better than the SSR. If Honda can sclep out the Ridgerunner or whatever it is, an el Camino would work for me.

SSR concept at auto shows was a draw. Production model not functional/pragmatic, way overweight and way overpriced. It might have sold a "little" more if it were priced in low 20s. It was merely eye-candy and a cartoon car. How many can afford this type of frivolity (non-daily driver) not too mention have extra space in garage.

GM should wish that they were capable of schleping out a vehicle like the Ridgeline. GM fans here should go out and test drive and inspect the Ridgeline and compare to GM V6 pickup offerings.

andre1969

that if GM would take SSR styling and apply it to a regular pickup truck, like say the Colorado, they'd have a winner on their hands. Keep the Colorado/Canyon for those who want a modern small-ish truck, but then give the platform an extensive skin-job and sell it as a retro companion.

When the Dodge Ram went retro for 1994, and the Dakota for 1997, sales of them both skyrocketed over their predecessors. While neither the Dakota nor the Ram is nearly as retro as the SSR, they do have a look evocative of many 50's trucks, back before the trend of making the hood the same height as the fender tops. I think Ford was the first to level the fender tops with the hood, in 1957.

andre1969

it's a nice truck, but it may be a bit overkill for the needs of many people, me included. If I wanted a truck, I'd just want a fairly basic, RWD, regular cab/8-foot bed model.

m1miata

Well comparing the New Camry vs. Lucerne V6, it looks like Toyota could be off by quite a bit and still be a lot more bang for the buck. A modern engine and a 6 speed transmission. Looks like the party is over for Impala, Lucerne, G6 and the whole gang. And if that is not enough, the next Accord I am sure adds more woes for GM / Ford. At 268HP give or take 10%, who cares, Toyota wins. The V8 DTS Caddy is 275HP. The 3.8V6 is not even in the game. Actually the Toyota and Honda four bangers are smooth enough, with adequate HP to get the job done, if economy comes into the equation. The new Camry is $19,300 starting price. And it is not half price in a couple years. With the pressure from the Civic and now the Camry, it looks like checkmate.

Loren

ubbermotor

In all fairness, Toyotas answer to the Lucerne is the Avalon, an equally hunk of steel.

62vetteefp

The Ridgline is dieing. Honda has an unheard of 60 day supply (for Honda). Even with getting the truck of the year they are not selling. Problem is it is too expensive at $30K. Perhaps if they reduced the price to $25,000. Right now they have an unheard of $1000 rebate on 2006 Ridglines. They are only selling about 4000 units per month. Even the failed Colorado is selling about 6000 units per month even w/o any incentives.

Nice truck, no market.

andre1969

Wow...just checking the stats atAutosite, it looks like the "toy truck" market has just about dried up, with people overhwhelmingly preferring full-sized trucks.

Six of the top 7 selling truck nameplates are full-sized. The one non-fullsizer, the Toyota Tacoma, is #4. It sold 13,735 units in February. It seemed like not that long ago the Ranger was good for around 20,000 units per month, while the S-10 was good for maybe 15-20K. And the Dakota could usually be counted on for 10K+. And wasn't the Frontier at one time a much stronger seller? Seems like the only smaller truck that is doing really well now IS the Tacoma!

In contrast, the full-sized truck market seems to still be doing very well, and has enough volume to even support relative newcomers like the Nissan Titan and Toyota Tundra.

62vetteefp

Agreed with the small PU truck going away. the small construction minivan is gone. Contractors do not travel that far and want the big ones. Small p/u the same thing. If you need a truck you need a truck!

tundra is selling well. Is it a bit bigger than the Colorado sized trucks?

andre1969

is nominally a "full-sized" truck, but inside it feels smallish to me. Part of the problem is that it feels like they just took the seats out of a Corolla or some other small car and mounted them in the Tundra. You sit low on the floor in the Tundra; it's more akin to a car seating position than a truck, IMO at least.

If anything, I'd call it "midsized", but with full-sized capabilities. Kinda like the old '76 Jeep Honcho my uncle used to have. That sucker wasn't nearly as big in the cab as a full-sized Chevy/Ford/Dodge of the time, but it did still have a full-sized bed that could hold a 4x8.

The Tacoma has gotten a lot bigger with its last restyle...sometimes I mistake them for a Tundra. And inside they feel almost as big to me. A bit narrower in shoulder room perhaps, but the seat just seems a bit higher and more "truck-like". Legroom feels a bit better, too.

Way back when the Chevy Astro first came out, my stepdad wanted to buy one. He wanted to go into business for himself as a plumber and thought the Astro would be cool. Until he saw that it was A LOT smaller inside than a "real" van, wasn't that much cheaper, and fuel economy wasn't that much better. He ended up with a stripper '85 Chevy workvan that had, IIRC, a 350. Cheap sucker too. Didn't even have a/c.

andre1969

IIRC it was a '73 El Camino with a '76 El Camino door and an '82 Camaro transmission. Ulp. Hope it wasn't one of those little THM200C's! :surprise:

m1miata

If you wish to pay more for the Avalon, they will accept your money. Not a bad car indeed. But do look at the new Camry. Best value! No ancient relic of an engine, or four speed tranny, and it has some resale value. What is the typical resale value on GM cars??? Nada!

Loren

lweiss

Could it be that the market has finally changed and the people buying trucks now are the people that really "needed" them to start with (like people that haul and carry things) and not the recreational people that bought it for image/just to have one. For the working crowd, the full size truck is timeless, and hey, they usually get their gasoline costs paid for by their companies anyway.

As for GM's car aspirations, I agree with others that their battle is almost too much for them to overcome, especially outside of the rental and other fleet markets. Not just the excellent Camry/Accord/other Japanese owned, but Hyundai and Kia are coming up fast (check of the new Hyundai Azera, awesome for about $27K)- and if there was more Japanese and Korean dealer coverage outside of this country's major metropolitan areas, the numbers would even look worse for GM. Ford has a contender with their Ford Fusion, but outside of that, they are in the same shape as GM.

ubbermotor

What I'm saying, is you have to compare apple to apples, the Lucurne starts $26,000, or about $800 less than an Avalon, to which it is comparable in size and price.

The Camry starts some $8,000 less and even equipted up the $26,000 does not put it in the same market as the Lucurne/Avalon. If it did, Toyota would move the Avalon farther up-market.

As for Buicks "ancient relic of an engine" (yes it dates back to 1962) and four speed transmission. The Toyota's extra gear, veriable valve timing and DOHC cams give it the advantage of less than a second in the quarter mile, 3mpg, higher maintainance costs and a lower reliability rating. This is what 40 years of advanced technology get you? I'm impressed.

imidazol97

> less than a second in the quarter mile, 3mpg, higher maintainance costs and a lower reliability rating.

Alleged 3 mpg. The 3800 gives me 31-33 on highway trips on mostly interstate travel. Around town it's 24 for overall driving. I haven't done 0-60 for ages. I do 0-45 and 20-55 more than that full run. Sometimes my 3800 with all it's torque is too quick. My 4-speed tranny seems always to be smooth and in the right gear. No electronic shift lags that have been posted about in some discussions including here on Edmunds about Toyo Avalons and Toyo Lexi (does that include Camrys?).
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.ef4cdbd/2420
I also don't worry about oil sludge in my 1998 nor my 2003 motors.

I grow weary of the One Note Sambas with the gotta have the latest someone put in their car NAV or 7 speed tranny or .... It's like adolescents who feel they have to set a trend with something different and others who feel-the-need to keep up.

andre1969

may be a bit past its prime in a car like the Lucerne. IIRC, the tests I've read put the V-6 at 0-60 in around 9.5 seconds. In comparison, the '00-05 LeSabre tended to clock in at more like 8.0 seconds. Is the Lucerne that much heavier?! Or is there something else going on here, like more restrictive gearing or some other foul play?

Motortrend once tested an Impala with the 3800, around 2001 I believe. Got it to do 0-60 in something like 7.3 seconds! :surprise: And that was just the regular 200 hp 3.8, not the supercharged version!

I think the new Impala clocks in 0-60 around 8.5 seconds for the 3.5, 7.8 seconds for the 3.9, and 5.9 for the 5.3 V-8.

Over at Ford, I've been seeing around 8.5-9.5 seconds for the 500. And I think the Crown Vic is down to around 8.0 seconds these days. And I think the Chrysler 300/Dodge Charger with the 3.5 are good for around 7.5-8.0 seconds.

So the 3800 might be getting a bit overmatched in these newer, heavier car bodies. IIRC the 3.6 DOHC in the LaCrosse only does around 7.6-8.0 seconds, which is about what the 3800 did in the old Regal. So I'd imagine then that the 3800 is a bit slower in the new LaCrosse, if it now takes the 3.6 to catch the old Regal.

imidazol97

It's probably in the gear ratio for the final drive for economy and pollution controls that is the cause for a difference in acceleration. I have't driven a Lucerne. I hesitate to ask to drive one at the other dealer. My dealer from whom I've purchased cars lately hasn't had one sit around long enough to ask about it.

gogogodzilla

Well heck, the Honda Ridgeline looks almost exactly like a Chevy Avalanche... And we know how well that's selling.

It's the bodystyle that is killing the sales.

m1miata

Higher costs? I really-really doubt that. The Toyota and Honda products are pretty much bullet proof. I have owned USA product and Japan makes. So far there is no comparison for quality and reliability, Japan makes have in my case been far superior. Take in the data from Consumer Reports, and others seem to have had the same experience. As for maintenance on the engine, you change oil every 5K miles- pretty cheap. I am sure the new 268HP V6 Camry will be much faster than the Lucerne V6 engined cars. It has to be. Seems that GM needs a V8 to get the HP, which is OK I guess, if they would make it the base engine.

Loren

kodename

The GTO is not dead, or so says Lutz now in the latest Autoweek. Add confusion as yet another factor for GM's demise. He says Firebird is dead, and the new Camaro will be the chassis for the next GTO. Update your score cards. What's the most used tool at GM planning center? My guess is the eraser. :confuse: There's even some talk about a possible El Camino coming from down under in the article. Bill C.

62vetteefp

Well heck, the Honda Ridgeline looks almost exactly like a Chevy Avalanche... And we know how well that's selling.

I know what you mean. I tried to find a 2006 Avalanche and there are none left around here. Sold out until the new 2007's come in. Anyone know when they will be available? I have to buy in the next 2 months and it looks like it will have to be an Envoy XL.

kodename

The Ridgeline realy is an ugly duck. It's siloutte is ugly, it's ugly from any angle. I remember one poster likened it to the Aztec,not a bad call IMO. There's nothing on the Ridgeline to dress it up either.No chrome accents or trim. That's something I always thought plagued the Honda Pilot, it's too darn plain, but unlike Ridgeline, the Pilot is selling. Honda can afford to keep the Ridgeline around for quite a while if they choose to. It's refreshing to see the Japanese lay a egg once in a while. Will Honda "fix-it" or leave it be? Honda's Element isn't breaking any records either, even with the new painted fenders, or am I wrong about that? Bill C.

kodename

1. GM refocusing strategy, pushing brands, easing off on corporate ads
2. Building public awareness of 8 individual brands, downplaying corporate image.

The above is from a GM news release.
This is the exact opposite of what GM was saying and doing 6 months ago. Corporate strategy? What corporate strategy? Bill C.

andre1969

the Avalanche was actually selling pretty well for awhile. Didn't they move like 70K annually for a few years? I think once the 1/2 ton crewcab Silverado came out, it might have cannibalized some sales. After all, that's the same basic truck, just without those flying buttresses, no cladding, and no gimmicks like the midgate.

m1miata

This is too good; I believe you can't be making this up

Maybe the strategy to to thoroughly confuse so many, they will all forget they are near bankruptcy and not a step away from recovery.

-Loren

imidazol97

I saw that too. Maybe they got a new ad agency. What a waste.

62vetteefp

Still selling well-sold out all the old '06's around here.

They are not the same truck. I know a number of contractors that love em. You can have the nice 5 seating capacity for the crew OR your family (my case) and a concealed storage bed and when needed the midgate goes down and you get a couple more feet for hauling sheets of plywood.

Great concept. Only reason they do not sell more is they are darn expensive compared to an old fashioned work pu. Midgate is no gimmick.