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The labor pool increases costs and creates some disconnects, but that is not the core problem.
The root problem is GM's increasing inability to appeal to the consumer in the face of superior rivals. When given a choice to buy a car, an increasing number of people choose to look elsewhere. If GM expects this to change, then the products and services that accompany those products have to be changed to meet customer needs, otherwise people will continue to buy competitors' offerings.
Labor costs reduce profits, but they don't cause consumers to prefer other products. The product side needs to be addressed if the tide is going to change.
-Loren
The Lucerne *is* a DTS with a differnet grille and badge on it. For $10K less. Factor in that you can buy one two years old for maybe $15K and it's going to be a fantastic deal. Let some other moron eat depreciation anyways. I've never bought a new car and never will - it's just bad economics.
That said, we should really be comparing 2-3 year old USED cars instead of the new ones. That's what most people actually buy and many of the domestics fare very well. Why pay $20K or so for a two year old Camry V6 when a two year old LeSabre can be had for around $15K?
But in terms of fit and finish, the Lucerne is built like the CTS. Very nice and tight - the first proper "Buick" since they stopped making the Riverias. Better than the imports? Well... I'd rate it better than some of the stuff over at the Infinity dealership and even better than the low-end Mercedes.(the new C-Class is such a dissapointment) Considering all of that, the Buick's price is actually reasonable.
Side note - they should have used the Roadmaster label for the V8 version, IMO. It would be fitting.
It's not that the LuCerne V8 doesn't rate like a $40K car - it's that it rates exactly like what $30K after rebates will get you. The others aren't close anymore to what 40-50K should buy you - just silly Gucci type pricing on some of them. The C-Class is a $20K car with a $40K sticker, like the Jaguars are. $20K will buy me a whole makeover for my house, practically. It better get me more than some thicker leather and wood trim.
Compare an A6 or Jaguar or some of the other "luxury" overpriced brands. Or compare a Crown Vic at ~$20K(base model, after rebates) to a Sentra for $18K.
Or compare a C280. There aren't rebates on these, nosiree. $35K gets you a Mercedes Corolla. Humm... V6 with hideous electrical issues and made out of plastic(Plasti-Cedes) or V8 and made out of better materials?
Okay, you have to pay for:
324 Sunroof Package $1,790 $1,665 $1,725 (yes, Just for a Sunroof)
-- Leather Upholstery $1,500 $1,395 $1,446
320 Entertainment Package $970 $902 $935 (Comparable radio)
359 TeleAid $820 $763 $791 (OnStar Clone)
319 Lighting Package $790 $735 $762 (proper headlights and lighted door sills and such)
873 Heated Front Seats $680 $632 $655
275 Power Driver Seat $600 $558 $578 (lol - wasn't kidding when I said "Plasti-Cedes)
819 6-Disc CD Changer $420 $391 $405
To equal the LuCerne. Price jumps to $38,500 *invoice* with destination. Edmunds TMV price is ~39,900
A fully loaded V8 Lucerne... same price. Of course... I'll buying mine used for half that.
"And Rick is the best, most stable, most thoughtful guy I have ever worked for. He's not dramatic. But he gets the job done."
Well, if your idea of a superb job is a) losing $10B+ a year, and b) losing 1-2% of market share a year for the last five years, then yes, you have to agree with Bob and Rick!
Among car people it seems to be. But what's more important is that people who have owned GM products are switching over to something else and not going back. Those owners aren't likely to be converted by mere talk - unless they find it to be true in their own cars.
A lifetime Honda owner could be accused of bias. But for a lifetime Chevy owner to buy a Toyota... that doesn't happen unless they see a difference themselves. Apparently, many do.
I agree 100%. I've seen to many people that always bought domestics switch to Toy/Hon, simply because they liked them better.
I grew up in a Ford/GM family. I always liked Fords and often balked at those who said the Japanese cars were better. I kept believing the JDpowers IQS results thinking that the domestics were just as good, if not better.
Well, when I started driving my friends asian cars and trucks I was always impressed with the overall refinement that I never experienced in a domestic. Then the Fords & GMs that I have bought were basically crap.
I still don't see a domestic sedan under $30k that would consider buying. Well maybe 2. A Fusion and the upcoming Saturn Aura.
IMO, most of GMs mainstream sedans will be behind the competition once again with the upcoming '07 Altima, Maxima, Camry etc.
Buick LaCrosse CX/CXL
Buick Lucerne CX
Chevrolet Impala
Pontiac Grand Prix
Saturn Aura
Ford Fusion
Ford Crown Victoria
Mercury Grand Marquis
Chrysler 300
Dodge Charger
You really could use a reality check on this issue -- the American consumer largely doesn't agree with you, and fewer and fewer of them agree with you. You and a few people like you are not going to singlehandedly rescue GM from hitting bottom, enough of the products will have to be improved so that they can appeal to a wider audience.
Buick Lucerne CX
Chevrolet Impala
Pontiac Grand Prix
Saturn Aura
Ford Fusion
Ford Crown Victoria
Mercury Grand Marquis
Chrysler 300
Dodge Charger
Lemko,
Your tastes and mine are different.
The Lacrosse just doesn't do anything for me. I'm sure it's a good car, but not for me.
No way would I buy a Lucerne with the 3.8L
Impala/GP, I think the Impala is a big improvement, but I'm just not interested. Maybe an SS, but that's a big maybe.
Saturn Aura, definitely would be on my list to test drive. Looks like a winner.
Fusion seems to be a nice car for the $$ and I would consider.
CrownVic/Marquis. Nice car in their day, but to outdated for my tastes. Now maybe a used Maurader could be a nice stealth buy.
Chrysler 300 would work until I filled out the option sheet pushing the price to over $30k, can't have this car w/o the hemi.
Charger, see above.
Which would you keep?
I knew you would say neither!
-Loren
Some doing well. Some not.
Includes two off freeway stops at Garden Ridge in Lexington and Bob Evans in Florence.
Perhaps I just don't know how to drive a car the right way but I have no lack of power. It downshifts smoothly when it needs to do so. It may not drive the way one poster is used to driving his usual car so it may not seem to do what its 220 lb-ft torque should do! It doesn't have to go 3800 rpm to develop useable torque!
It even goes up the 5% or higher grade on I75 at the mountain area north of Knoxville easily!!! Passed the gas stations with 2.89$ on their signs knowing I used a modicum of fuel... grin
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
And I know many Mercedes C-class buyers and buying those vehicles is hardly based on logic- although they will last a very long time given proper (and expensive!) maintenance. But most buyers of the Mercedes/Jaguar are status conscious, they wouldn't be caught dead in a Buick, the image is just not there. And won't be.
-Loren
No air conditioning needed today until the last 70 miles to home! Did much better than at Christmas when we traveled. Colder weather made a difference. The traffic was light today. That's odd for Easter week.
I reset the average mileage when I was on I40 and read it when I got off near home. I started out over 35 around Knoxville area.
I don't know about the height of the "hills" north of Knoxville. I don't know of a topgraphical map available on internet to find the height. I'm sure it's not as high as Clingman's Dome in the middle of the Smokeys Park.
I realize that to people who don't live in the glacial flatlands of Ohio the mountains in that area are minor compared to the Rockies.
That motor serves me well. Someone who wants quick take offs without trying and wants 30-70 in 3 seconds (exaggerating) and is used to a car with quick performance would have to adjust.
There's a market for this motor in a full size car like Lucerne and LaCrosse. It may not be as much fun to drive but then I don't have to feed it as much either.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Interesting that the name Dieter has a German meaning of " warrior of the people. "
-Loren
Buick LaCrosse CX/CXL
Buick Lucerne CX
Chevrolet Impala
Pontiac Grand Prix
Saturn Aura
Ford Fusion
Ford Crown Victoria
Mercury Grand Marquis
Chrysler 300
Dodge Charger
The Buick LaCrosse 3.6 and the Lucerne V8 are the only Buicks worth buying. The standard model is a huge piece of underpowered crap on both options. Same with the Aura - big engine only.
What Edmunds.com Says
With fewer features and weaker performance than either Toyota's Avalon or Hyundai's Azera, Buick's Lucerne is outmatched among full-size sedans. If all you want is a roomy, quiet car with a V8, it's worth a look, but most buyers will be better served by its more capable competitors.
Pros
Extremely quiet and comfortable ride, available V8 engine, supportive front seats, huge backseat, easy-to-operate controls.
Cons
Subpar brakes, sluggish handling on CX and CXL models, weak V6 for this class, lacks expected convenience, luxury and safety features, inconsistent build quality.
What's New for 2006
Buick replaces the aging LeSabre and Park Avenue with a new front-wheel-drive, full-size sedan called the Lucerne. Based on the Cadillac DTS platform, the Lucerne seats up to six and can be equipped with GM's Northstar V8.
I probably wouldn't buy a new one, but would consider a used one. Now I haven't driven one, so there's every possibility I could take one out for a spin and hate it with a passion. But then again I might not.
http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=detroit+news.com&page=1&offset- =1&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3D6ce2d8ea510607d7%26clickedIt- emRank%3D1%26userQuery%3Ddetroit%2Bnews.com%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%25- 2Fwww.detnews.com%252F%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DNSCPResultsT%26amp%3Bam- pTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.detnews.com%2F
Per edmunds review, V8 lucerne is slower and thirstier than V6 Azera - shows how low GM have sink. GM's number 2 brand's flagship can't compete with a Korean car? Didn't Lutz's say Buick were going to taken Lexus not long ago. Apparently UAW are sharing their weed with upper management too.
I would never be in the market for such a car, but it does shows signs of effort.
The Japanese are just that JAPANESE. They (culturally) have assumed a disciplined approach to investments that makes our AMERICAN system pale by comparison. Did you know that the average Japanese SAVES 30% (on average) of their income ? Why are they building here....to avoid the legacy costs in their OWN country. The Japanese would rarely consider buying a Non-Japanese car. It is unpatriotic and a slap in the face of the Japanese worker. Get the message ? The Japanese government does ? I think Americans are true to their stereotype, generous,forgiving, naive, and sometime just PLAIN STUPID. The world is not based on the U.S. set of values.
Realize that the JAPANESE are consummate Nationalists. You can live in Japan 99% of your life, if you are not of JAPANESE parents you will never be considered Japanese. The sad thing is that the allegiances they have to the foreign place of manufacture is solely based on how much money they can eventually make. When parts will be available from other sources they will use them. (America be damned !) What percentage of parts come from domestic (US) suppliers for each of the Asian builders? Any guesses out there ? You know that Transplanted Japanese managers are only allowed to stay a limited time in the US. I think it is 2 years. Why ? They say that is the maximum time any
Japanese can stay and not be "soiled by American Culture".
Think about it.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060414/AUTO01/604140364
Agreed.
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Toyota is MORE concerned about Hyundai than about a possibly resurgent GM.
It's not just Honda and Toyota. One crucial difference between the importers (be they German or Asian) and Detroit is product cycle. You know there will be a new 3-series or E-class or Camry every five or six years. Consistency breeds brand loyalty and equity. BMW and Toyota would never give up using the names 3-series and Camry.
With Ford and GM, they only change product cycles when they're in the mood. When Lincoln LS came out, Ford promised to update it regularly to stay competitive. It turned out to be the first and last LS ever, replaced by Zephyr. Nobody should be shocked if there won't be a 2nd gen Zephyr. Same thing with Cadillac and GM. CTS debuted in 2001 just before Infiniti G35. 2nd gen G is coming in the fall, there's no word at all about new CTS.
There are 3 problems with big 2's product planning. One, they leave the models out there much too long, thus diminishing their resale values. Two, they give them all these new names (Lucerne, Fusion) which have no connections to consumers. Major importers generally only give new names when they enter new niches. Third, because of their multiple brands, a new car from Ford or GM is not exactly new. Saturn Aura is very similar to Pontiac G6, which is very similar to Chevy Malibu.
I agree. GM is so complacent and unable to address competitive threats that it isn't much of a worry to anyone, except perhaps to Ford. Its market share is for the taking, the only question is who is going to take it, and how much they are going to take.
Hyundai is playing an entirely different game -- the effort to deliver comparable quality to Toyota, but at a lower price. They seem to be on the verge of achieving this, we'll see in the next five years or so whether they pull this off. It will be more difficult for Toyota to justify significantly higher prices if Hyundai becomes equally good at delivering high quality, and if the consumer comes to see Hyundai as an equally viable, credible alternative. Any price cuts needed to compete would really diminish Toyota's impressive margins.
Story says that GM could begin importing to US if dollar-to-euro exchange rate improves. Even if it does, GM should not bother to bring to US. This car’s price and styling will not save GM. Think that there are many other less expensive alternatives.
Entry level base price with a 4-cyl engine is shown as $34,000 (est) by Autoweek. Can’t imagine there would be many takers at this price. You can get a fine Honda Civic, Honda Accord or Toyota Camry 4-cyl for under $20,000 with world-class quality and reliability. This fall, Honda will introduce a four-door Civic SI performance car.
If one wanted a real entry level luxury performance FWD car and had $30k+ to spend, the Acura TL with V6 would be a far superior choice. And, the Acura is designed and constructed in the US vs the baby Caddy(Saab) from Europe.
However, that being said, this is the primary reason why SAAB was never able to directly compete head-to-head with other European competitors, i.e. its primary engine was the 4-cyl. SAAB's turbo 4-cyl, either the HP or LP version, is a very smooth, economical, and powerful engine. But, buyers in the $30K to $40K class never could get over the mental hurdle of paying that much for a 4-cyl. powered car. The SAAB-designed 4-cyl. is a far superior engine than the Opel-designed V6 which is still offered in some SAAB variants. The 4 is practically bulletproof and will easily go 500K without any bottom-end work.
The Japanese are just that JAPANESE. They (culturally) have assumed a disciplined approach to investments that makes our AMERICAN system pale by comparison. Did you know that the average Japanese SAVES 30% (on average) of their income ? Why are they building here....to avoid the legacy costs in their OWN country. The Japanese would rarely consider buying a Non-Japanese car. It is blatantly unpatriotic and a slap in the face of the Japanese worker. Get the message ? The Japanese government does and subsidizes the auto industry. I think Americans are true to their stereotype, generous,forgiving, naive, and sometime just PLAIN STUPID. The world is not based on the U.S. set of values. We are just learning to market like the Japanese with the Solstic and Vue. We create pent up demand and severely limit production.
Realize that the JAPANESE are consummate Nationalists. You can live in Japan 99% of your life, if you are not of JAPANESE parents you will never be considered Japanese. The sad thing is that the allegiances they have to the foreign place of manufacture are solely based on how much money they can eventually make. When parts will be available from other sources they will use them. (America be damned !) Well, we are well on the road of domestic car manufacturing atrophy. What percentage of parts come from domestic (US) suppliers for each of the Asian builders? Any guesses out there ? The money eventually goes back to Japan.
You know that Transplanted Japanese managers are only allowed to stay a limited time in the US. I think it is two years. Why ? They say that is the maximum time any
Japanese can stay and not be permanently "Soiled by American Culture".
Think about it. If they are willing to do it ALL, we will not be able to do anything for ourselves.
I realize that this nugget is oft-repeated, thanks in large part to the hard work of GM's PR department. But exactly how does it address the fact that most GM products remain uncompetitive?
I’m curious to know whether you’ve actually analyzed this to determine whether it makes much sense.
Let's put the legacy costs factoid in perspective. As I showed on this thread, if GM completely eliminated its claimed $1,500 per vehicle legacy costs during 2005, it still would have lost $13.8 billion pre-tax.
Now compare this to Toyota. Had you increased Toyota's legacy costs by $1,500 for every car that it sold in North America during FY 2005, Toyota's automotive operations would have still generated a pre-tax profit of almost $10 billion.
(Here's the math: pre-tax profit from automotive operations of about $13.5 billion, less GM legacy costs of $1,500 per vehicle multiplied by 2.39 million units sold in North America, equals $10 billion pre-tax profit.)
How would you explain this $23 billion difference between the two companies, which would occur if Toyota had the burden and if GM did not? It's pretty simple, really: GM sells its cars at steep discounts, which makes it much harder for it to cover its margins. If GM simply had maintained its brand equity, rather than becoming the K-Mart of the automotive industry, it would be making a profit today, even with health care costs and all that. There is a good deal wrong with GM, and while the union doesn't help, the union alone doesn't come close to explaining what the problems truly are.
With everything else, we have a great standard of living here, the job market is healthy (with some exceptions like UAW members that were overpaid and over benefitted for years). I have seen Japanese housing- an apartment of 800 square feet is luxurious and expensive- no thanks!
But that is not so much a matter of the Japanese economy as population density and desireable land.
If you wanted to live on frigid, isolated Hokkaido Island, you could have a pretty big place for not a lot of money. Most Japanese want to live in temperate and bustling Tokyo and the other large urban areas to the South such as Osaka.
Even in the US, a 2,000 square foot home in Omaha can be had for less than $250k. The same size place in Manhattan may be $2.5 million.
The math is what it is -- GM couldn't turn a profit even without the legacy costs, while a company such as Toyota would still make plenty of money even if it had those costs. A bit of arithmetic makes it pretty clear that the legacy cost argument is mostly PR fluff, not a viable explanation of what's wrong with General Motors.
If you really care about GM as you claim, I would think that you'd want to figure out exactly why it has a problem. This shouldn't be an ideological matter -- it's just business.