General Motors discussions

logic1

Consumers are always right.

Yet we have Microsoft as the dominant operating system.

dieselone

Consumers are always right.

Yet we have Microsoft as the dominant operating system.

LOL, and GM is still #1 in sales, so you make a valid point...

ubbermotor

"Toyota and Honda WERE substaintially better for the same price (or cheaper for the same quality)"

Are we talking the 70's and early 80's? If so you'r either not old enough to remember how bad '70's Toyotas were and that fact the Honda was a nobody during these years.

Toyota's were not cheaper than their American counterparts either, if there were American counterparts. In the early 80's Civics and Corollas were priced closer to Citations than a Cavaliers, and smaller than either.

aspesisteve

China is becoming the Japan of the 1960's and 70's
is becoming? it's wayyy past that. It's becomming Japan of the 80's. High tech used to only build the high volume low tech stuff in China. Not any longer - tech that requires alot of expertise is now built there.

I thought I read a while back that GM is going to build cars in China for Chinese consumption - did that ever take place?i>

logic1

The difference is the US government after creating more debt can just elect to print more money.

Money supply is controlled by the Federal Reserve which is independent of the government.

If the Fed printed money at the whim of the government, the US would have inflation on the lines of that in Argentina. The Fed does not, the US does not.

logic1

I thought I read a while back that GM is going to build cars in China for Chinese consumption - did that ever take place?

GM is the number one sales leader in the domestic Chinese market.

The GM cars sold in China are either made from the ground up there, or are kits made in Korea and Australia then assembled in China.

A few Cadillacs and Vettes and the like make it over. China regulates imports of cars pretty closely.

aspesisteve

how many trillion $$ in debt are we?

ok, let me rephrase.
the US government racks up the nations debt level as if it can just print up more $$

aspesisteve

There is a show on called Autoline Detroit

I seriously doubt a show called Autoline Detroit is going to slam GM and Ford. I'm guessing Honda didn't run an add on this time slot.

It's kinda like Fox news running stories for their target audience.

logic1

The US manages debt in two ways:

1) Treasury Bonds. T Bonds are offered in monthly, annual, bi-annual, 5, ten and thirty year offerings. The government has to pay interest on the bonds.

2) Borrowing from the social security fund.

At some point the debt may increase to where the US cannot pay it off at the current rate of taxation. Presumably the US would raise taxes before defaulting.

As the US government does not control the money supply, it cannot print money in order to pay its debts. Even if the Fed wanted to cooperate, it could not, as the Fed cannot legally just give money to the US Government.

logic1

It's becomming Japan of the 80's. High tech used to only build the high volume low tech stuff in China. Not any longer - tech that requires alot of expertise is now built there.

True. But most of it is being made by expat companies with Chinese facilities.

The Japanese companies may have copied the West in the 1960s and 1970s, but they were independent of the Western companies.

China is starting to form its own businesses. But it is largely a source of cheap labor and engineering for other nations' businesses.

noob

"that have nothing better to do than to trumpet the successes of foreign car companies and bash GM."

Some of GM cars/trucks are built in Mexico. Most of Toyota and Honda cars/trucks are built in the U.S. My friend works as Navi. programmer for Honda and he is 100% American. And who sells Toyota/Honda cars and trucks? Japanese or American? If you only buy GM cars and trucks, what will happen to 100,000+ American Toyota workers? This is year 2006!! There is no American/Japanese company. So I recommend everyone to buy what they want and be happy.

anythngbutgm

"So I recommend everyone to buy what they want and be happy."

Exactly. Nobody is going to convince the buying public that they are morons for buying a foriegn car. Choices are good, it keeps the competition on their toes to produce better and better products.

Whether it be Toyota, Honda, Subaru, Ford, Chrysler, BMW, MB, whatever, buy what you like. Don't harp on others who choose something that you didn't.

Except those fools who bought GM'ers... J/K

carlisimo

Exactly.

What that means to us is up for debate, I guess. I think the presence of American and European companies in China will make it difficult for the Chinese; their economy is held hostage by those companies, to an extent. Those companies will only remain while China's labor is cheap. But the Chinese people will not be a large market of consumers until they earn too much to be considered cheap labor.

It's hard to break out of a 3rd world economic condition, and it'll take a lot of balancing to do so, at least until China's economy is self-sustaining. Right now they need us even more than we need them.

socala4

Those companies will only remain while China's labor is cheap. But the Chinese people will not be a large market of consumers until they earn too much to be considered cheap labor.

I think that this misses the point that China's massive scale and population can service both a relatively small consumer class, while maintaining a much larger pool of low-wage workers whose labor feeds the manufacturing machine.

The PRC has a population of 1.2 billion people. If a mere 20% are destined for middle- and upper-class success and the consumer tastes to match, that would mean a market of 240 million people to serve (about 80% of the US population), while another 900+ million would potentially be available to do the work. In effect, China can do with its rural and semi-educated what we have done with Mexico -- convert it into a low-wage labor machine that feeds our mass production from a relatively convenient, cost-effective location (in this case, in their backyards). It could take decades for the trickle down effect to come into play, if it ever comes at all, and the opportunity for comparatively low wages should be available for some time to come.

carlisimo

I hope they do better than that, but good point.

logic1

The PRC has a population of 1.2 billion people. If a mere 20% are destined for middle- and upper-class success and the consumer tastes to match, that would mean a market of 240 million people to serve (about 80% of the US population), while another 900+ million would potentially be available to do the work.

But unlike the US and Mexico, where a very different people can accept penury (not for so very long, if the past few weeks massive demonstrations are any indication) in a foreign nation, the 900+ million poor share a national idenity with the 240 million middle class. Add to that they are raised in a political society that says all are equal.

Reads like a text book for destabalising unrest.

socala4

China already has a rural-urban divide, Shanghai may as well be a million miles away from rural areas of China, in both mentality and lifestyle. A lot of those urban educated demonstrators at Tiannemen Square were killed by farm boys who were not impressed by these arguments for free expression or democracy.

I'll speculate that the Chinese may end up resembling the maquilladora system here, with low wage workers clustered together in factory towns that are a fair distance from the affluent cities where the goods will actually be used. China has multiple cultures and languages within it, so they may be able to maintain a form of economic apartheid and low wages for quite a long time. We'll see how it plays out, but I wouldn't assume that they'll be reaching wage parity with the first world anytime soon.

socala4

To add to the above, here is a link to a BBC article that makes some references to the migration of poor rural Chinese into factory towns that are dedicated to serving particular industries, such as underwear and bra making, etc.: "The rapid rise of China's sock town"

The point is that this sort of thing could be done to support Chinese auto assembly "towns" as well -- new Detroits of the East, as it were, with major western automakers clustered together alongside their suppliers in locations where wages are low, infrastructure is available and incentives to create factories are high. As China seeks to spread a bit of the wealth by moving jobs into rural areas, I think you'll find more of these places cropping up outside of the major metro areas, where the low wage labor is already located and taking the burden off of the major cities.

m1miata

Well I lived those years and recall great Toyotas and Datsun, such as the 510 and 240Z. The problem was in the steel. With the rust problems and safety issues due to light / thin steel used, perhaps you have a point. For handling, fun, features, gas mileage, and reliability the Japan makes were better. If used in areas where they rusted, or for crashing into Cadillacs, they are the not the preferred cars. By the 1990's we started seeing some larger cars, with better steel as the years went by. Today they got the whole act together, as does Hyundai of Korea.

The last couple of years, GM car look like they are getting higher marks for reliability. Why this should take a 100 years is another story. :P Looks like the latest couple of years for Cadillac sure look better. Now the fun factor, as in driving pleasure, I am not so sure about. Maybe some are OK, some better than average, and then there is the Corvette. Where is the Pony car... no not some high priced show car, the Pony car for $20K? Ah, it is at Ford. They let Bill beat them again Oh my!
-Loren

elroy5

The simple fact is Hondas and Toyotas hold up better, and therefore have higher re-sale value. So you can figure it out pretty easy. Say you buy an Accord today for $25,000. And you buy a Ford Fusion for $23,000. $2,000 is how much you would save by buying the Fusion. Now, you keep both of these cars for 6 years. The difference in resale value would recover the extra $2000, and you have been driving a better car for 6 years, at the same final cost. 90% of the time once someone buys a Honda or Toyota, and sees what they've been missing, they don't go back to buying Domestic.

I don't think a smart company, like Honda, would make a bad decision like buying GM. Even if they had that kind of money to throw around.

socala4

Funny thing -- the Ford Fusion is built in Mexico with mostly foreign parts, while most US Accords are built in the US with a majority of the parts being sourced in the US. So which of these two cars is the true "domestic"?

elroy5

You can get "Quality parts" from anywhere (US or many other countries). And you can buy "Cheap parts" from many sources. Honda buys "Quality" parts from wherever they are. GM buys "Cheap" parts from wherever they can get them. The "Country" doesn't matter. The "Company" does. Do you understand that? Also, where the cars are manufactured has little to do with the quality of the final product.

socala4

Calm down, boy. I was illustrating the ever-increasing blurry line between "domestics" and "imports". One of my pet topics on this forum where many people defend GM as if the future of the entire American nation hinged on the fate of Buick.

mikestl80

I primarily come from a GM family (have had a few fords). Regarding cars of the 70's & 80's. The americans have had their issues (understatement for some models). Some consider it "luck" when a gm auto is reliable. (The reason for the car being is under 60K is really cute m1miata). I own those cars post 60k. I've had very good "luck" with a 94 lumna 161K, dad with a 92 lumina 196K and grandfather with a 93 Grand Prix 193K and still running. All the engines and trannys were in fine shape. I am now on a 00 Impala and love it 118K and going strong. The perception of GM making mechanically inferior cars is not accurate. When it comes to styling though, gm hasn't been cutting it. The sky, vette, and the interiors of the new big suv's though are promising (if they put that effort into their bread and butter cars).

carlisimo

Add to that they are raised in a political society that says all are equal.

Gotta disagree there. Chinese culture has always been one of the most dog-eat-dog around, and that didn't change under the nationalist warlords nor under the communist warlords. With the stability that the current ruling party has enjoyed, they've changed some of their focus towards assuring enough quality of life to not get overthrown, but that's about it. It's strange, the countries that have become nominally communist have always been the ones culturally farthest from it.

logic1

I agree culturally China has never been for equality. Chinese schools, however, continue to teach Marxist-Maoist thought.

The economic disparity in China is already causing trouble in China the government has barely been able to contain. As disparity continues to grow, the chances of a rural majority meekly accepting their lot seem slim to me.

jipster

...agree with logic1's logic. Chinese government recently taking land from peasants without appropriate compensation is just another indicator of the trouble brewing in that country.

dlim899

The global economic situation has evolved, in a positive way. We had the US, Japan and the European dominating the global economy in the past but now it has changed. Asian powerhouses such as China and India has shifted the balance. China now holds in their foreign reserve approx US$854 Billion (mainly in US dollars), second only to Japan in terms of US dollars dominated foreign reserves. Do you think that they have some what of a control over the US economy, especially the value of US$?

Now, Chinese made automobile is COMING!!!! However, don't expect them to follow the footsteps of the Korean makers in the past (Hyundai failed many years ago due to quality problems). They had carefully study the US markets. Also we have to remember that most of the engineers designing and building the cars are mostly educated either in US or Europe. They learned a great deal from their partnerships with global automakers such as GM, Honda, Toyota, DaimlerChrysler, Fors and more. It is time for them to fly on their own.

dlim899

Well, like all governments, there will be problems. Human rights and more, however we have to remember that in the short past, like say 10 years ago, the situation was a whole lot worst!

The Chinese government has taken steps to improved since joining WTO. From human rights, environment and business regulations and the quality of life. Yes, no doubt there are problems, those will take a long time to improve.

15 years ago, China had probably about 8 models of cars to choose from (don't even mention quality). Today they have over 48 to choose.

President Hu Jintao will be visiting the White House soon, pretty sure that all these issues will be discussed, especially the human rights, trade deficits and the value of RMB.

noob

GM needs to learn from Toyota. This is what people want.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/66260/prius_hits_113mpg.html

I buy it now if I can!!

m1miata

Does this mean a one year old Cadillac will sell for $20K instead of $25K? Yeap, the new high mileage Prius looks like another nail in the coffin for GM. Hope the gas won't hit $3.50 a gallon in Calif. like I think it just may. It is still inching its way upwards. Glad they are working on the zero to sixty, as 10.9 seconds seems like an eternity when a big rig in filling up the rear view mirror when entering the highway. Did they say if the zero to sixty was with the radio on, or off
Now they have to work on the sound. Doesn't quite sound like a Mustang GT.

Let's see in 2008 GM will have more rear wheel drive car, be phasing out the so loved by loyalist, 3800 engine, and about ready to consider something called the hybrid car. Then everyone goes on strike, and it won't matter anyway. :surprise:

OK back on subject. Some of the cars at GM inside and out are looking better styled. This is good. But the question is will this save GM; no it won't. Do they appear to be trying to work their way through some major problems; well yes they are. Does the product on late seem better? To me it seems overall to be better cars for reliability, yet still not too exciting. Nothing of a draw to come in. I think Ford shows a little more in that respect, though the 500 looks a bit boring.
Seriously, the new product in USA is looking better. I am also serious when I stated some of that which I owned in the past was junk. That in fact may be what hurt GM the most.
-Loren

dpat

1) That's a UK report - meaning the gallon is an imperial gallon, not a US one

2) That translates to about 95 mpg in US gallons which is still pretty impressive.

62vetteefp

Yea, I will fit my kids and stuff in it! Maybe John can sit on the roof.

logic1

Yeap, the new high mileage Prius looks like another nail in the coffin for GM. Hope the gas won't hit $3.50 a gallon in Calif. like I think it just may. It is still inching its way upwards.

What will it do to sales of the forth coming Tundra, which Toy says will be the largest of the current crop of pick ups.

kodename

Apparently on the GM calander this is the week/month to hype Saturn. Calling it "born Again" as the result of several billion dollars spent on yet another GM overhaul. Just how did GM conclude that Oldsmobile had to go , while Saturn has almost certainly never added to the GM "bottom Line"? And now , presto, like Oldsmobile , Saturn is selling more than ever rebadged and reworked GM product that's already available elsewhere. Saturn is to GM what GEO was to Chevy. It's time to Keep the good work rules, lose the cars. Do some still believe Saturn is taking away sales from Honda & Toyota, the stated reason for Saturns creation? Way to go , Lutz and Waggoner.You guys are brilliant? One Question remains however.When this latest reshuffle of products fails as it almost certainly will, what can you sell off next? Maybe Lutz can sell off some of his fine suitcoats? Bill C.

torque_r

'What will it do to sales of the forth coming Tundra, which Toy says will be the largest of the current crop of pick ups.'

Not a bit, because Toyota does not plan to sell more than 200,000 Tundras a year.

m1miata

Larger cars, form Toyota, in hybrid will follow - no doubt.

Just think, if they sell enough cars with great gas mileage, gas prices lower, then you and I can buy real cars which have power and are fun to drive. Hope they sell a lot of them. Then go pick up your full sized car, SUV, or sports car with a V8, while the prices slump. Wait awhile and if price of gas lowers, you gotta deal. If the price doesn't lower, you just have to go to the bank more often to pay for $3 to $5 a gallon gas. Whata interesting gamble though. Gee, maybe with 95 MPG cars, gas would cheapen a third? Or maybe not. Will be interesting to see how many get sold over the next three to five years time, and how it impacts other cars. It has been a long time, as in 1973, since I last owned a V8. Every time I think of getting one, something like a gas hike occurs.
-Loren

plekto

$10K buys a lot of gas and repairs. The used Lucernes are going to be real gems - outperforming and costing less than the 2-3 year old Camrys and Accords. Enough so that MPG won't be a factor.

lweiss

Bob Lutz of GM was quoted at the New York Auto show that Wall Street's got it all wrong- GM's best days are ahead, the analysts that comment on GM don't own cars/haven't been to GM showrooms, etc., and of course saying that the CEO of GM is the best anywhere. Now bear in mind, this was also the guy who predicted a wonderful sales year for GM back in 2005 (when they lost $10.6Bil) and when fuel costs went up last year, stating that "the people that buy big SUV's are not concerned about fuel costs".

Now maybe he was posturing for the press, but if that is the attitude of GM's top management, maybe they are in such denial that they don't realize the extent of the crisis in the company. As I have always said, they really do need to clean house at the top of GM, their product planners in particular. It still seems that they don't "get it". But they are quick to blame everyone else for their shortcomings, aren't they?

george35

It must just be in vogue- "GM bashing" just like MALE bashing a few years ago. I wonder if the consistent negative posters even own a car,are employed in the industry,let alone own a car of domestic manufacture. I can see opinions being strong but I think some of these posters would fail abysmally if really put in charge of anything larger than a Paper Route. The direction given is from the role of a "benevolent dictatorship". Just because they say so doesn't magically make it happen. To philosophize is one thing, to be able to clearly steer a corporation out of this mess the size of GM is another. It is not just an issue of not making things happen. It is also an issue of not being allowed to make changes without dire consequences. It will take time.
I am old enough to remember that MADE IN JAPAN was equivalent to JUNK. Everything changes so will GM.

We will see. But I think that GM will come out of this OK.
A lot more lean and efficient than the world has ever seen. It will not be to the liking of most but they will make a health profit in the future with great vehicles.

Yes, I do drive a GM Product. I like it ! On principle I will NOT buy a Japanese Vehicle. The consumer will make the ultimate decision in their purchase.

socala4

I wonder if the consistent negative posters even own a car,are employed in the industry,let alone own a car of domestic manufacture.

It's responses like that explain why GM is losing money as if it's going out of style.

Instead of drinking the Kool Aid, it would be wise to figure out why potential customers are defecting and why a large proportion of them don't seem inclined to return. The consumer will ultimately vote with his money, and if the votes cast don't favor GM, GM will pay the price.

Rather than blaming the consumer for making a decision, it would make a lot more sense to make a product worthy of a purchase, and then focus on trying to get them to buy it. From your local hot dog stand on up, that's how business is supposed to work, and GM is no exception.

xrunner2

Apparently on the GM calander this is the week/month to hype Saturn. Calling it "born Again" as the result of several billion dollars spent on yet another GM overhaul. Just how did GM conclude that Oldsmobile had to go , while Saturn has almost certainly never added to the GM "bottom Line"?

Don't recall that there ever was a good styled Saturn except for the new Sky. But, isn't that based on the Pontiac Solstice? Will Sky bring buyers into Saturn dealers in 2006-7? Maybe answer to that question is Chevrolet and Honda. How many people get drawn into a Chevy dealer to merely "look" at a Corvette and then decide to buy a Cobalt or Impala. Same for Honda. Who goes to Honda dealer to "look" at S2000 roadster and then says what the heck, I think I will buy a Civic or Accord.

Who knows why Olds was killed and Saturn survived. Was GM more concerned about the wrath and lawsuits from Saturn dealers than from Olds dealers. Or, perhaps it was just in a name. Oldsmobile is old and stodgy name (100 years) and Saturn has new-age ring to name. Another possibility: did Saturn dealers/service depts treat customers with more respect than Olds dealers?

In any event, except for those buyers wanting a Sky, don't see that Saturn model styling as "gotta have" like Chrysler 300 or current Mustang.

sls002

GM has been the largest seller of vehicles in the world for some time. The problem has not been that it sells the most, but rather is that it is slowly selling fewer vehicle in the US. I think for GM to have 30% of the US market an unrealistic expectation. It is not realistic because GM's vehicles are not the worlds best, nor are they the cheapest. If GM had the best products for the money, then they might expect to sell the most; OR, if they had the cheapest product in each category, then they might expect to sell the most. As it is GM's products are sort of in the center, not the best or the worst, and not the cheapest either. So they should probably have about 15% of the US market -> perhaps annual sales of 3 million vehicles.

mopowah

I can't help but wonder what the bashers want to happen with domestic auto makers? Do they want them to go away completely? Or, do they just want them to build better cars? I'm sure most have either been burnt by domestics or have had friends or family burned and that has swayed them over to imports. I guess the reason why I think about this is because the domestic auto industry employs millions of people in this country, not to mention the overall economic contributions. I don't think the country could handle a hit like that if GM or Ford or both were to disappear. I know that's not likely to happen, I'm sure they'll be around in some form or another but I think we need them to be successful and profitable.

xrunner2

I am old enough to remember that MADE IN JAPAN was equivalent to JUNK. Everything changes so will GM.

The Japanese were eager to listen, learn and apply. They learned from a US quality/management expert named Deming after WWII. GM was aware of Japanese quality methods and experts such as Deming and Juran probably as far back as early 80's but failed to apply these in a timely fashion. The issue is not that Japan made JUNK, but the progress that they have made to superiority in comparison to US brands.

sls002

This is the basic problem at GM and Ford, too many employees for the number of vehicles they can sell. I have owned a lot of GM cars, mostly Buicks, over the last 30 plus years, but I am not too excited about anything they are currently making. Chryslers line up is much more interesting, except that I don't want a Hemi because of the fuel consumption.

m1miata

And may I add, now Saturns will no longer be plastic skin cars. So, one may ask, why have yet another large overhead. They could become the import dealership for Opel and Holden, but any of the divisions could do that. Really, all GM cars units need is GM ( as in Chevy ) and Cadillac. I think people would by a GM Corvette, or a GM Lucerne just as well as one with Chevy or Buick label. Have GM dealerships stock say five great cars from GM and four at Caddy dealerships, and dump all the rest, except sports and imports. Problem is most of the cars look like an , " all the rest." A third dealership called Saturn Imports and Sports and sell sports cars out of that division, which completes the car line. Use GMC for all trucks and SUVs. GM cars division could also have GMC on the same lot.
-Loren

m1miata

The 3.5 V6 seems more logical than does the Hemi to buy. The 250HP should do the trick.

I see GM is going DOD engines. Do not trust the new technology. Would let someone else take the risks of ownership. May work great, or ?????

-Loren

anythngbutgm

Not everyone is a domestic basher. I would like to see GM get knocked out of the #1 spot for sales once and for all. Anyone who thinks they build the best, most efficient, most desriable, most reliable vehicles around is drinking way too much cool-aid. What vehicles are class leading? Maybe the Corvette?

More effort has been made by Ford and even more effort has been made on the Chrysler end that I truely believe both of these Domestic Auto makers deserve the title before GM. In some products, I would claim that their efforts are as good or even better than some comparable imports. I also believe Toyota has earned their way to the top long ago as well. Do I want to see GM go away for good? No. Do they deserve the top spot? Absolutely not.

I've read more pieces and forums on what GM is doing wrong but just to get more people on board with their cause, some will just generalize and call it "domestic bashing" :confuse:

m1miata

On the flip side of the coin, let me ask, have you ever owned a Japan make of car? Having owned both, I can safely say which one has been better product. Millions of others got turned off from the domestic cars. Blaming the messenger when the war is lost won't change the reality of the message.

Ever once in awhile, I may throw the dice and take a chance on Ford or GM cars. So far, without much pay back investment. Would consider say a Mustang, or even a Corvette as being unique automobiles. In luxury cars, maybe DTS or Lucerne would be OK, but only after the original drastic loss in value they suffer in the first year or two. Same with say Monte Carlo, or Gran Prix. Most people which pay attention to their money, will opt. to wait for the GM or Ford drop. Look at Taurus or Vics, as they drop in one year. To date, I have yet to have a domestic car hold up more than five years. That is another problem. If the current ones due, then so be it. Now I am not implying the car did not last longer, but it was starting to look and feel older than the owner, and I ain't no spring chicken.

Maybe some people do come back to Ford and GM. I may do it, even though in the back of my head, I am thinking this is gonna hurt. There are a few cars Japan has no equivalent to, or can be done as well in the good 'ol US or A. Well at least claimed to be of sound quality. Still leaves GM with labor/union issues, and a USA with no National Health Care Plan. For long term success, those two monkeys have to get off the back. Will the UAW work with GM and Ford to get through this now AND in the future, if there is one???

I recall a time when MADE IN KOREA was equivalent to JUNK. Interesting how Hyundai can back. They have the 10 year warranty, and now have product which is getting higher marks in reviews every years. Look at the Sonata improvements, and the Tiburon. This goes a long way to proving something is wrong here with GM, since they have had a 100 years to get the act together, while Hyundai did a turn-around in a few years time. No longer junk. It is not where you start, but where you end. You lead, follow or get out of the way.

-Loren