General Motors discussions

driver100

People who like to drive sitting on their living room sofa probably will like the smoothness of a LeSabre. If you don't care about the feel of the road, tremendous cornering, all the extra safety features such as all wheel drive all the time (almost impossible to skid), automatic brake pressure in a panic situation etc, then go for the giant dinosaur LeSabre. Although the dash in the BMW could be fancier, it is laid out logically and it isn't full of phony wood and chrome that you get tired of in a few months. I think the "miracle" is in the fact the styling will still look great 10 years from now, the handling is as good as it gets, it will be worth more in 4 years than any car on the road, and the safety features make it extremely well thought out by a company who really knows how to design cars that are built for drivers who want more than to get from A to B on a big couch.

cccompson

Just received from GM today - a "Private Offer" certificate good from April 14 through July 5, 2006, as follows:

$1500 off on 2005-2007 Chevrolet Avalanche, Tahoe, and Suburban; GMC Yukon (all models); Hummer H2 (all models); and Cadillac Escalade (all models) as well as $500 or $1000 off on various other 2005-2006 GM products.

The number of models excluded from the offer is small and includes Chevrolet Corvette and Pontiac Solstice.

There is no language on the certificate that indicates it cannot be combined with other offers.

The fact that GM is offering $1500 on its '07 SUVs just as they are being released would seem to speak volumes about its expectations for the near term future.

m1miata

Stock up on management confidence???

No, it is perhaps something which the common investor is not privy to, which is no doubt a great lot on Wall Street. Perhaps we know the rest of the story within a year or so. Nothing indicates this stock as a buy, yet something triggered a buying frenzy. Interesting indeed. Could it be car deals in China, or some assurance of backing from Washington D.C -- heck a good mystery to solve. The rest of the story - wish I knew.

One way or another, it was good news for GM fans, faithful, and investors. If it holds true that the company rebounds over time, it is then good for the workers, consumers (owners) and such. There are towns and cities which rely on GM payrolls. Of course a spike in one day on the stock price does not make all the woes just blow away. Just a bit of optimism.

I wonder if we are getting a national health care plan soon?

Maybe, in a way, the stock is up on some move management at GM was able to make. But what is it?
Ah, the mystery.

-Loren

rockylee

Well everyone is offering money on SUV's Look at gas Prices and tell me if you were in GM's shoe's that you wouldn't be scared. They took a gamble and are losing because the greedy oil cartel isn't happy with making just $10 Billion in a quarter. :mad:

Rocky

P.S. Drive Green, Go Yellow ! I think that's how it goes. :surprise:

rockylee

GM Global sales were up 4.4% and perhaps that is why the spike ?

Rocky

P.S. I posted it here last nite

zjim

You know, I can't believe how many of those posting seem to WANT to see GM fail! I've had mostly good and a few not so good experiences with American autos over my nearly 46 years of car ownership. I agree that some of GM's management decisions have been far from brilliant, but my gripe is with them, not the millions of people whose family incomes depend on GM. If GM fails, the domino effect on those smaller American companies that produce parts would be devastating, not to mention the tremendous loss of tax revenue at all levels of government. How could any conscientious American wish that on our society? :confuse:

Now for good news for most and bad news for the naysayers. Here's the context of an article published today in the Milwaukee Journal business page:

Headline: GM global sales increase 4.4% - Automaker reports 2.2 million sold.

"General Motors Corp. said Wednesday that it sold more than 2.2 million vehicles worldwide in the first quarter of 2006, a 4.4% increase from the same period a year earlier.

Sales outside North America increased by 148,000 vehicles, or 15.9%, more than twice the industry growth rate of 7.4%, the world's no. 1 automaker said.

'Our strong global sales performance during the first quarter was fueled by the growth of GM's global brands -- Chevrolet, Hummer, Saab and Cadillac --in key markets,' Chairman and Chief Executive Officer Rick Wagoner said."

The article went on to say, "Chevrolet sales in the Asia-Pacific region increased 62% compared with year-ago levels and out paced the industry's growth rate of 9%, GM said.
Chevrolet sales in Latin America increased 27.4% compared with the industry's growth rate of 19%."

While domestic product sales went down slightly, the overall sales for GM was up significantly. Don't plan GM's wake yet, boys! I'm rooting for GM. Global sales up this quarter, look for similar improvements in domestic sales to follow.

lweiss

I just can't help but think that GM is reading the tea leaves of almost record fuel prices and trying to make sure that the big SUV's and trucks keep selling well. They are new models and improved models, they have been hyped up for almost a year, and now they are seeing an anticipated bubble of demand which may fade fast if fuel costs continue to rise. And whenever fuel costs rise, the probable constituents of people that buy big vehicles (people who already have older models of that type) will see their used vehicle values drop. Therefore I would think that GM will start offering incentives to compensate for that.

gogogodzilla

P.S. Drive Green, Go Yellow !

----

Gad! That sounds like something people do after an 8 or 9 hour drive...

Go Yellow, that is.

:P

nvbanker

The stock went up, because GM posted their losses for the quarter, and they were Billions less than last quarter. Oh, they still lost millions, but they lost less. It's a good thing - IF the trend continues, they may eventually post a profit again, before they run out of capital. :surprise:

m1miata

Profits. If it is increased profits, then great. The numbers game, as in growing recognition and market share is for the newcomers to the game. For GM it is all about the bottom line. They are selling more cars abroad with gas prices continuing to rise. This is interesting indeed. They are selling more Hummers??? Interesting. I thought smaller, fuel efficient, manual transmissioned, diesel, hatchbacks ruled the streets abroad. Must be those rich oil countries buying the big boys.

Global sales, for whatever be the reason, being up is a good thing, and yeap, could help a stock price. Still think it is something else.

Anyone outside the USA know what discounts they are offering? Wasn't another fire sale, was it? If they are selling into a market hard to break into, say it was the Asian market, and had to discount, then so be it. Some short term sacrifice to get the ball rolling is fine no doubt. Looks like they are moving along in that area of the World.
Hope it was not deep discounting in Europe.

The Hummer and Cadillac line has a uniqueness to it, so it is something I could see selling abroad to those with the big bucks.

Did they say some time back that the Euro division was profitable?

As far as the topic here of styling. Doesn't seem like European market always gets the cooler looking models from GM, and Ford? At least in the smaller cars segment.
-Loren

m1miata

Oh dear, not the old, " the light at the end of the tunnel, is an oncoming train." -Loren

nvbanker

Can GM stop bleeding, then get out of the red, before over-capacity and the job bank buries them. Losing less each quarter is a good thing, but eventually, they need to make some. It can swing quickly - either way.

rockylee

Loren,

Sorry for the Delay. The room is spinning on me. Ambien is kicks my butt

But I do agree

Rocky :surprise:

rockylee

Alot of my family and friends are going to leave GM. No more Job Banks :shades:

Rocky

torque_r

The fact remains that GM has been very slow to react to market changes. Slow is probably an understatement here. How about dumb?

1- GM mocked crossovers in 1996 when the RAV4 and CR-V went on sale. They finally were forced to join the crowd. When did that happen? SIX full years later with the saturn Vue and Buick Rendezvous.

2- GM laughed at hybrids in 1999 when the Insight and Prius went on sale. They finally were forced to join the crowd. When did that happen? Not even on sale yet. GM is EIGHT years behind.

3- While GM was busy redesigning its full size trucks and trying to catch up on crossovers, others realized its time to bring back the small hatchback. And they did it in no time. Look at current C&D issue. Seven small cars where the Honda Fit was claimed as a go-kart mini. Again, GM is nowhere to be seen, unless you consider the last place Suzuki as a GM.

Despite all its heritage and contribution to economy growth, how can someone respect such a company? A slow-moving dinasaur like someone mentioned here is a very good description to what GM is right now.

imidazol97

>about the feel of the road,

I get great feel of the road through the steering wheel. I don't need it through my kidneys and butt.

>tremendous cornering,

Thanks. I can corner faster than I desire with my Michelins and 16 in wheels. I've seen too many incidents caused by people thinking they were Dale Earnhardt in their cars, cornering, etc.

>extra safety features such as all wheel drive all the time (almost impossible to skid),

I've seen those folks here when it's icy, snowy, wet, with their "impossible-to-skid cars" in the ditch and worse!!! Grin. This is winter area.
***********

Now if what you're trying to say is that you personally want a car that does these things, say that; don't try to say that everyone else wants a car of that type. Too many people try to impose their values onto everyone else. If that were true there would be no Lexuses sold.

imidazol97

>greedy oil cartel

You criticize the oil cartel companies (correctly so) but you fall into the alcohol cartel mantra. ADM raise price of ethanol 10cents just as it's needed for all the special blends the EPA has mandated to "protect the air" in regions around the country.

anythngbutgm

I can't believe I was oogling over the new Buick crossover... Stupid name (Kinda reminds me of "Autoclave" from science class) but man oh man does that thing exude class and luxury. This IS still a concept right?

My buddy I was with, first thing that came out of his mouth was "They'll find a way to screw it up"

On a side note, for gits and shiggles I checked out the Solstice GXP. Body lines are decent, build quality was not so good. Really disappointing things were the

- poor visibility over the dash, good luck looking over your shoulder to change lanes, the body motion to do so is painful and you have to leverage yourself upward to see over the tail. But if you have one hand on the wheel and one on the shifter...
- The seats have the support of a bean bag chair. I could feel the seat structure through the padding.
- The gearbox is tight, notchy, and feels like it came out of a truck... Oh wait, it did come out of a truck.

All in all, it shows effort. power sounds decent, acceleration in the low 5's, .90 on the skidpad is impressive, but I blame the monster truck rubber for those results.

Just my .02. Go ahead guys, acuse me of biased bashing...

lemko

Are Getting the Green, and Spewing the Yellow all over everybody's else's heads.

anythngbutgm

Actually it's more of a brown color...

Good to see Big oil doing so well in Todays economy. :sick:

socala4

No, it is perhaps something which the common investor is not privy to, which is no doubt a great lot on Wall Street.

I wouldn't assume too much. If you subscribe to Random Walk theory, then you accept that short-term share price movements are unpredictable. You should be able to predict trends over longer periods, but daily shifts are difficult to foresee.

The stock moved about $2 per share, not very much in pure dollars-and-cents terms for a $20 stock. The cheaper a stock, the more volatility that can get dialed into its price. For example, I just looked at recent quotes, and I see that the stock price this morning has since fallen by 1.33%. What that means, nobody can honestly really tell you, but for a $22 stock, a 1.33% movement is not very much.

anythngbutgm

http://www.leftlanenews.com/2006/04/21/corvette-roof-panels-blow-off/#comments

socala4

That's too bad. The Corvette gets nailed by CR as having reliability well below average. It's a fine driver's car, it's a shame about the build quality...

anythngbutgm

I actually prefer the now defunct GTO to the vette. I don't know, something about the vette always reminds me of "Face" from the A-team. Like a "Members Only" jacket and a pair of "Raybans" should be included with every sale. Performance wise, there is a lot to respect. But the doorstop styling just looks so 80's.

The GTO was all attitude, and with the addition of the scoops, it was much less pedestrian.

m1miata

Well for GM is was a big move. The most in 19 years. And you are so right, it means nothing for the long run. You get these strange fluctuations in most stocks. For this to happen on a stock of a company losing money for 6 quarters, is a little odd. Just interesting to see. Would never gamble on such a stock. That is like buying Kmart stock, in round one. Yeah, the old Kmart stock which went penniless - something to frame and put on the wall. There are large investors betting on GM not going into bankruptcy, which is very odd. There has to be a " the rest of the story " to all this.

I see GM and F stocks today are assuming gravity.
Now if we could only see another year or two into the future....

-Loren

m1miata

The Holden is a good car, no doubt, but the Corvette is pretty awesome. Great looks, coupled with fine handling and power,is a good combination. Finding the money to buy and maintain a new one is a different story. And a low seating position, is the not the greatest for a bad back. No problem buying a Hawaiian shirt, gold chains, and watch, if you can afford the car. Just hand loose :shades: I still see those Member Only jackets worn by the 60 to 80 bunch. Must be good threads They are usually driving Buicks though. Why throw away a perfectly good jacket?

Too bad Pontiac lost their Import. May be their best car in the line up for that division.

-Loren

anythngbutgm

No disrespect to the performance of the Vette. I am just more of a Porsche/Aston Martin fan, the Vette just looks like a rolling doorstop to me. I'd say the same for some Ferrari's and Lambo's.

To each his own I guess. :shades:

irnmdn

Again, GM is nowhere to be seen, unless you consider the last place Suzuki as a GM.
GM sold Suzuki to raise cash recently so that it can keep enough workers on JOB-BANK.

Interesting trivia:
$15k Fit(71.4mph) out-slaloms $65k Corvette Z06(65.8mph)

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/10983/honda-fit-sport.html

dieselone

15k Fit(71.4mph) out-slaloms $65k Corvette Z06(65.8mph)

Well, it's pretty useless to compare completely different sized cars in a slalom. A smaller car will generally have an advantage.

carguy58

When I took a look at sales figures for each individual brand a few weeks back Pontiac and GMC were significantly down from last years sales figures. I figure if sales figures keep on their current pace Mazda and Hyundai will pass GMC and Pontiac in sales this year. I read somewhere GM was cutting some rental fleet sales so I guess GM will lose some market share this year overall and I guess declining GMC and Pontiac sales have also suffered from GM cutting back rental fleet sales. The only thing GM has outside of SUV's that sells real well is the Solsice but still Solstice sales are not going to be enough to save sliding Poniac sales.

I also saw sliding sales of Chevrolet too. The Malibu and Impala haven't been well recieved in the market place. I have heard however that GM has some real good car concepts though. I guess GM is cutting back on rental fleet sales and concentrating on the long term with hopefully like to turn around their US operations in the next few years.

anythngbutgm

The future Saturn lineup has the most potential within GM at the moment. We'll see whether or not the investment pays off.

The Sky in particular is very promising, the Aura has some issues I am not keen on. The new Outlook is just another SUV with nothing unique to bring to the table. The proposed hybrids should be respectable (Even though hybrid tech was supposed to be passing fad???)

I predict this Saturn revolution will come at the expense of Pontiac and Buick.

socala4

I guess GM is cutting back on rental fleet sales and concentrating on the long term

That is the line that GM management has been feeding to the media, in its efforts to please Wall Street. But if you crunch the numbers, it becomes pretty obvious that the whole thing is just talk. Here's something I posted on another thread that applies here:

From the Detroit News:

Top 10 US fleet cars, October 2005 - January 2006:
1 - Impala
2 - Malibu
3 - Taurus
4 - Sonata
5 - Grand Prix
6 - Stratus
7 - G6
8 - Caravan
9 - Cobalt
10 -PT Cruiser

GM fleet sales as a percentage of total sales:
Oct. 2004 - January 2005: 26%
Oct. 2005 - January 2006: 31%

Clearly, GM continues to dominate the fleet market. And while they talk a big game about reducing fleet sales, the fleet sales are actually increasing in percentage terms.

Not only that, but fleet sales during the same period also increased in absolute terms. If we look at GM's own data, we can see that total US sales for the two periods above were as follows:

Oct. 2004 - January 2005: 1,366,763
Oct. 2005 - January 2006: 1,226,955
Net decrease: 139,808 units (-10.2%)

Apply the 26% and 31% fleet sales share figures to the above, and you get this estimate of fleet sales for the period:

Oct. 2004 - January 2005: 355,000
Oct. 2005 - January 2006: 380,000
Net increase: 25,000 more units (+7.0%)

Now, if you back these fleet estimates out of the total, you can estimate GM's retail sales declined from about 1 million units during 10/04-1/05 to about 847,000 units during 10/05-1/06, a decrease of 16%.

chuck1959

No disrespect to the performance of the Vette.

No disagreement her about the Vette. IMO the is the "high performance" alternative to those who can't afford Porsche/Aston Martin etc.

I am NOT trying to compare apples to oranges here. I am simply saying the ones that what a Porsche or whatever settle for a Vette...something they can afford. I know they are very different cars. Thanks

carguy58

"Top 10 US fleet cars, October 2005 - January 2006:
1 - Impala
2 - Malibu
3 - Taurus
4 - Sonata
5 - Grand Prix
6 - Stratus
7 - G6
8 - Caravan
9 - Cobalt
10 -PT Cruiser "

"GM fleet sales as a percentage of total sales:
Oct. 2004 - January 2005: 26%
Oct. 2005 - January 2006: 31%"

I'm surprised to the PT Cruiser in there. I'm a little shocked the Caravan is in there because its always has been the best seller in the mini-van class. The Sonata is not half bad. The Tarus? why is Ford still producing the car? I would figure that is a money loser for Ford to sell and produce a car that is excessively sold to fleets. Maybe its pressure by the unions to keep the plant running that produces the Tarus. I don't know.

"Apply the 26% and 31% fleet sales share figures to the above, and you get this estimate of fleet sales for the period:"

"Oct. 2004 - January 2005: 355,000
Oct. 2005 - January 2006: 380,000
Net increase: 25,000 more units (+7.0%)"

I see your point on these fleet sales but I think GM just started last month cutting back fleet sales because in one of the press releases I read on the internet said that GM in some way cited a decrease in March 06 sales to due to a reduction of fleet sales. I think January-Februrary 06 GM hadn't cut feet sales yet. As a matter of fact in one of the articles in the internet said for Janurary for 06 sales that GM did increase fleet sales above some analyists predictions for that particlar month. Keep in mind I am not a big GM fan either I'm just giving you the facts on what I read from different articles.

bumpy

The Tarus? why is Ford still producing the car? I would figure that is a money loser for Ford to sell and produce a car that is excessively sold to fleets.

The Taurus has been fleet-only for a year or so, and will go out of production when Ford closes the factory next year. Cranking out Taurii keeps the workers out of the jobs bank, and keeps the Fusion away from rental-car doom for a while.

m1miata

Small, short wheel based cars do that. Over the years, lots of cars have out raced the true sports cars through a slalom. Now let's go to the track with both cars. Yeah, I know you get to take three cars, as the price is a third. Ya know, a little blocking, and it may work out?
-Loren

socala4

I see your point on these fleet sales but I think GM just started last month cutting back fleet sales because in one of the press releases I read on the internet said that GM in some way cited a decrease in March 06 sales to due to a reduction of fleet sales.

They made similar comments in January, too. If you take GM press releases at face value, you would think that the fleet market was being quickly left behind, but the spin doctors should not be believed. You really need to look at the data for yourself to see how it doesn't match the rhetoric coming out of the PR department.

I suspect that they are trying to prop up the stock price by claiming to be reducing the fleet sales, because the press releases are issued before the data itself becomes available. As time passes, this little house of cards will come down, as the analysts run the figures and see that the fleet sales haven't declined as had been claimed. But for now, it buys them a bit of breathing room.

lemko

...fleet buyers are going to have to go somewhere to get their cars - Toyota perhaps? Well, I guess I'll soon be seeing statements like this on the boards:

"Toyota makes excellent cars! That's why all the rental fleets buy them! This will certainly help Camry's resale value!"

socala4

I think that we've been over this. It's OK to sell some cars to the fleets, but when you're selling 40% of your vehicles to fleets at discount prices, as GM has been, it's pretty tough to make money or to preserve the value of your brands. At least Ford has been smart enough to isolate its fleet special Taurus from the retail market Fusion, which should help the latter preserve some market cachet value, at least for a little while.

chuck1959

Where do you go to on the net to find the sales figures?

dieselone

AutoSite

AutoSite is the only place I know of the posts sales data. It does take them a while to post after the end of each month, but it's interesting data regardless.

If you visit AutoSite, look down the left hand side and click on Market Report about 1/2 way down.

chuck1959

Thanks!

socala4

You can also get some data from Automotive News and Ward's Automotive, although you need a subscription to get the details.

The companies themselves also provide some of the data. Check the "investor relations" areas of their websites, and take a look at their annual and quarterly reports if you want to piece it together.

imidazol97

Excellent point. Can you say "double standard"?

enka

I pretty like the yukon but its not the style ppl want. GM should do what foreign cars do ask the ppl what they want like the Hyudnai or Honda for example Hyundai now sells almost half of million cars in a year and honda sells bout1 million cars. GM dont ask the ppl what they want they just get some designer and he just designs somehin that ppl dont really like by the If u didnt see the new 2007 Hyundai santa fe check it out cuz its really hot
now santa fe has the third row seating 7 passenger and lots of hp chekc that out

dieselone

I don't really think it's a double standard, but a matter of economics.

I don't think Toyota is dumping cars into fleets. I don't have a problems with GM, Ford, or who ever sells cars to fleets, obviously fleets need vehicles, whether they are rentals or company provided cars.

The problem is if I buy a new Ford 500 or Impala and a large percentage went to fleets which only lease for 2 years or less. I get killed in resale. If Toyota starts selling 40% of Camry's to fleets watch there values fall. Since most fleet Camry's are 4cyl LEs, look at the residuals between a Camry LE 4cyl and a v6 model. There certainly is a difference, same with an Accord.

Now this does pose an opportunity for a used shopper. Used Impala's, Taurus', Malibu's etc, offer an excellent used value.

socala4

Good answer. Some people here can't seem to accept that it's the degree to which fleet sales are being used that is the problem. It's OK to have some in order to generate some stable sales, but when it gets to the point that multiple nameplates are being designed as rental cars from the ground up, and when they drag down the badges to which they are attached, then they become a serious problem. Toyota isn't even close in selling to fleets to the same degree as are the Big 2.5, particularly GM.

irnmdn

A smaller car will generally have an advantage.
Not in the case of GM.
Honda has a history of making minivans and microvans(Fit) that out-slaloms GM's sports cars.
Per edmunds test data, 8-passenger Odyssey out-slaloms Pontiac GTO

imidazol97

The point flew by you. Some posters would think that the same percent or same circumstance for fleet sales from "other" brands would be okay. They would come up with statements to indicate that it's a good thing while for GM it's _all_ bad moves. If only, if only, they were to have been CEO for a day they would have known how to do things differently 20, 15, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 years ago!!! Good Monday quarterbacking but it's different in the driver's seat.

dpat

Good answer. Some people here can't seem to accept that it's the degree to which fleet sales are being used that is the problem. It's OK to have some in order to generate some stable sales, but when it gets to the point that multiple nameplates are being designed as rental cars from the ground up, and when they drag down the badges to which they are attached, then they become a serious problem. Toyota isn't even close in selling to fleets to the same degree as are the Big 2.5, particularly GM.

If the big3 ever get to the point where their production is more scalable (and more in line with market share) the fleet problem will be considerably reduced. Right now, the rental companies can buy the cars for huge wholesale discounts because they know the big 3 would lose even more money not selling them. If it costs one of the big3 $5000 per car not to build a certain vehicle, the rental companiers can swoop in and offer to buy that car at a $3500 loss. If the cost to not build that car is reduced to $2500, the rental companies would either have to go somewhere else, or pony up more money. Either way, the automaker is better off.