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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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This, of course, is a perfect example of what GM faces from the negative media everyday. This reporter isn't looking to interview GM users to see what they think about the resale value as part of their car buying decision. They're fishing for people who agree with what they want to print.
Now we'll hear from posters criticizing those of us too dumb to understand there is not media conspiracy and those of us too weak mentally to really know how these things operate!
The discussion goes round in circles. I can imagine new readers starting through this constant repetition and changing to another channel as the financial sheets are dissected and rehashed for the 40th time.
The discussion topic is styling, not the 10K sheet for the company.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I have always favored American cars, mainly Oldsmobiles and Jeeps, however I thought I would try an X-3 for a test drive. I actually thought BMW's are over hyped and it would be embarrassing to be seen in a yuppie mobile.
Once I drove it I didn't want to give it back. When I talk about cornering and skid control I am not talking about racing the car...I am a very conservative driver (once taught driving to high school students) but the skid control, automatic breaking, exceptional road feel, are SAFETY FEATURES. The better the car handles, the better chance you have to avoid accidents. Would you like to know why BMW's have the gas tank filler on the right side? So, that if you run out of gas in the dark you won't be standing on the road filling your tank. When there is an accident in Europe the auto companies study it to see how they can improve the design so the occupants will have fewer injuries. What do American companies do when their Explorer's start tipping over, or their gas tanks explode, etc? They go to court or pay off the complainant, or try to hide the facts. In the case of the exploding Pintos it was to save a few cents making a safety valve on the filler cap. Many American cars still get low ratings in the government crash test, compared to European or Japanese models.
They make different cars for a variety of possible purchasers. If you want me to say I prefer a car that has the best handling, the best thought out design, the most safety features and hold it's value better than anything else at a similar price...I'll say it - I DO. If someone else prefers to sit on their living room couch and drive a car that was designed for maximum comfort and little thought to the driving experience then that is their right. I am only trying to explain to you why the BMW doesn't float over the road and why the interior doesn't feature tons of phony chrome and wood. Lately, it seems more people prefer having some engineering built into their cars....BMW sales are increasing, while Buick's probably won't be around much longer...read the reviews on the new Buicks. All these peoples are talking about names for cars...how about the Buick T-Rex?
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I apologize that I read your earlier response the way most people respond in the I-hate-GM discussion. But you'll find many people do want a car that handles and can absorb bumps. I didn't even lose control while dodging a covered wagon on a narrow country road in NE Ohio in an earlier leSabre.
I do understand your point about enjoying driving the BMW. I had two Mustangs. I was expecting a better mannered car. But people have indicated the X3 is not the prime example I should use.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Who thought up this ad idea?
-Loren
I think that you are really being a nice person for apologizing...you don't see someone big enough to do that these days.
I do not hate GM at all and I loved my GM cars, and never had any problems with them. I do hope they make it but they do have to get their act together to survive with the competition out there.
It was difficult for me to not to buy an American car this time. I have owned about 12 cars before - all American. These were the cars I grew up with and always admired. But, if you compare the better Japanese or European cars to American cars, and actually test drive them, well, the American cars just can't compete on styling, safety, handling, value, reliability. They do win hands down for that soft floating drive and vague steering.
Thank you for being calm and sensible in your reply...and happy driving!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I think you got it right. Since they are making the challenge they will assume the customer will think the Impala must be better....could be a dangerous bluff if people do try the other superior cars.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
It would have been smart to avoid throwing down the gauntlet until the cars were ready to meet the challenge.
Marketing and branding are both important, but it all has to begin with the product. If it isn't going to be the best in its class, then it at least needs to be unique and interesting, so that it offers a worthwhile alternative. Not sure how Chevy thinks that it has gained an advantage over its rivals here.
:surprise:
There are Internet sites, such as http://www.intellichoice.com/
which rate the buy. The Edmunds site has data on total cost to own. The list goes on and on. Heck, Kelly Blue Book has been around for a long-long time. This not rocket science and not so hard to find information.
GM knows this, as they will have lots of nearly new cars from fleet sales coming in every year. The dealerships resell them, and the used car lot is a big part of their business. Some pretty good looking deals, if ya like anything in the GM line. In one, two or more years, some super deals on Devilles, Monte Carlos, and many more. The Impala resale, if memory serves be right, is a bit firmer than before. I would imagine Cobalt got hammered by the Civic. Did you know they get up to 40MPG? It would take more than 10 years for hybrid Prius to be a better value based on $3.50 a gallon gas &15K a year, compared to the Civic with an automatic second level up in class.
So we will have yet another newspaper article to explain the obvious. Great! GM is not as good as Honda in resale is news?
-Loren
1998 - Lincoln brought out the Navigator - GM laughed all over the floor at it - big, garish Lincoln truck, how stupid! Until they noticed how many of them were sold the first year. Then, GM was forced to join this party too - and rebadged a Tahoe hastily in 90. But it was 92 before the real Escalade was born - 4 years late to the party.
The Mustang debuted in 1964 - GM didn't get their Camaro out until 67 - Currently, the Camaro and Firebird don't exist. Ford brings out the retromustang in 05. Oops, GM is once again left bereft of a car. So, they'll have a new Camaro coming out who knows when... because they're forced to.
GM stopped leading and begain following Ford and everyone else somewhere in the late 70's. Other than Cadillac, I haven't seen them lead anywhere else.
Got in a GTO yesterday - a great car, and a great performer, not even the worse interior I've ever seen, but so very bland outside, it looks like a Grand AM. Cars gotta look interesting in order to sell at that price...
GM is so adrift....
HEAD2HEAD comparisons should be restricted among GM divisions only. Compare Impala v GrandPrix v Luncerne v DTS and see which car wins. Even better: compare Impala LS v LT v LTZ v SS
Neither can I.
In their respective category. So your saying you'd feel safer in a Lexus IS 250/350 than let's say a Volvo S80 or Saab 9-3 sedan :surprise: I'd put my life in the Scandinavians hands.
The number 2 spot is BMW 3 series
BMW knows a few things about safety, and I could handle put my life on the line in one of their cars if I had to be an alive and breathing crash dummy.
You are looking at the wrong cars. And- ever since Ford and GM took these brands in- Volvo and Saab are NOT the same
We disagree. If it wasn't for GM and Ford bailing out these niche car company's they would both be bankrupt, so we obviously disagree on the affects of ownership and the value they added to both car companys. I will say currently Ford has invested handsomely into Volvo, and GM appears to be doing the same but yet hasn't made significant improvements to Saab production vehicles. I'm confident these changes are going to happen within 2-3 years though.
Rocky
We owned a pre-GM Saab and a few Pre-Ford Volvos and they were excellent cars (my wife's cars because I only had American cars).
Our 1995 Ford engineered front wheel drive Volvo was more like driving a Ford than a Volvo and it was the most costly car we have ever owned. Our daughter has a 1999 and it has had transmission problems that the dealer can't figure out.
The idea that Volvos are the safest cars is just the advertising theme that they have chosen to build on. In my humble opinion I believe Mercedes, BMW and possibly VW, along with Toyota, Honda and possibly now Kia are spending the most money to engineer safety into their cars.
You are probably correct in saying Ford and GM saved Volvo and Saab, but unfortunately, they do not have the money or resources to keep these cars up to date.
BMW and Mercedes have had traction control (power goes to the wheel that needs it), extra air bags, crush zones way, brakes that if you suddenly push down the sensors realize you are in panic mode and will apply maximum pressure on their own, four wheel drive, before GM and Ford. The battery in my BMW is at the rear.....why, to get exact weight distribution...American manufacturers are just starting to copy. As I said in an earlier comment, the gas filler tank is on the passenger side so that you won't be standing on the highway filling up your tank. The parking lights and rear lights can be left blinking on the right or left side only....so that if you are parked on the side of the road there will be less chance someone will plow into you. Lots of other features like a mode that turns lights on whenever you start the car so you won't drive around in the night without your lights on. There are lots of other features too numerous to mention, but these are cars that aren't just made to come in as cheaply as possible, these are cars where there is thinking, engineering and pride in making them the best they can be.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
In 99, Volvo was using a GM transaxle in their cars. Which was interesting given the Ford ownership. And usually, they're pretty good transaxles too. In the Volvos, they didn't fare quite so well.
I have to agree with Rockylee on this though. If Ford hadn't bought Range Rover, Jaguar and Aston Martin, (which surprisingly IS profitable), those nameplates would be gone today. I think that would be sad. Volvo may have survived on their own, but the cars are much much improved in their performance since Ford, and Fords are now much much better, using components, engineering and now even platforms developed by Volvo engineers. Probably the best marriage in the industry.
SAAB - was always a heap of junk to me, so GM can only improve them, and I think they have. What will GM get out of it? Who knows.....
My conclusion is that Volvo certainly did (does?) still have a commitment to safety, comfort, and good engineering, but yes so do other cars now. And with much better reliability as well.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=110105
By Ed Hellwig Email
Date posted: 04-20-2006
When 60 Minutes recently profiled General Motors, Vice Chairman Bob Lutz pulled back the sheet from what looked like the 2008 Cadillac CTS sedan. He only revealed a corner of the new luxury sedan, but our latest spy photos show an actual prototype in action.
One thing is clear after close examination of the spy shots: The car shown on 60 Minutes was a lightly veiled concept version of the actual 2008 Cadillac CTS. The headlights are an easy tip-off as the main projector beam on the prototype is mounted on top with the marker lights sitting below instead of the other way around.
It also looks as though the horizontal grille slats are less exaggerated than the concept, a design change that's likely to maintain the necessary air flow to the production engine. The rest of the detailing up front looks spot-on. From the air inlets on each side to the size of the badge in the middle, not much changes from concept to prototype.
Profile shots, however, reveal one major new design element you didn't see on the CBS news show. Look past the checkerboard camouflage and it's clear this CTS has much smaller rear doors and windows than the current version. It gives the sedan a profile similar to the Mercedes-Benz CLS500, a car Cadillac would be smart to emulate. It's a design change that could shave a few inches off the rear-passenger area, but given that the CTS is already bigger than most of its rivals it's worth the tradeoff.
There's not much to see out back as this prototype was covered up quite well around the trunk. Although there are taillights visible underneath the tarps, it appears as though the circular protrusions are add-ons designed to keep the engineers from getting rear-ended at the test track rather than actual production units.
Also note the collection of brake lights around the bottom of the skirting. They're likely to be production units as there would be no reason to mount them otherwise. The current CTS has nothing similar so this would be a notable design change that might make the otherwise bland rear end look a little more interesting. Our brief glimpse of an open door doesn't show much of the interior, but you can at least see what the door trim will look like.
One thing we couldn't figure out from these photos is which engines and transmissions will be used for the second-generation CTS. We expect Cadillac will crank up the current 3.6-liter V6 to somewhere in the 280-to-300-horsepower range, putting it up there with the more powerful V6s already on the market. Paired with GM's new six-speed automatic transmission, it would make for a potent CTS capable of keeping pace with rivals like the 306-hp Lexus IS 350 and 298-hp Infiniti G35.
Look for the concept version of the 2008 Cadillac CTS to debut at the 2007 Detroit Auto Show with sales beginning in the fall of 2007.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/30/60minutes/main1458483_page3.shtml
Live sneek preview of the grill and interior of the next Caddy CTS. This car appears to be a RWD
Acura TL-ish design. :shades:
My God this car is Very Sexy. :surprise: The 2007' Volvo S80 looks like it has a little competition for
"eye candy"
I wished it was coming out this fall vs. the fall of 2007'
Rocky
Lemko, What's your opinion on the new Volvo S80 ? The S80 reminds me of what the new Cadillac STS's interior should of been. Don't get me wrong I like the STS interior much better then most folks, but I would rate the S80 interior as the best designed interior in a production car. The wood, leather, and rubber compound trim is absolutely flawless. I am however am impressed at the next CTS's interior and this new car might become the new benchmark in this segment. BMW might get removed off it's perch.
Rocky
GM is seeing positive results on the turnaround plan for the company.
Rocky
2) Telescopic steering column should have always been standard, as well as, the lumbar support on seats.
3) The door window sill height is tall enough. Please no smaller windows on the '08 model.
4) I doubt it will be a BMW replacement. Cadillac CTS will have to stand on its own merits and value. Don't try to be something you are not - you just look silly
I figure a used one is worth around $18 to $20k for say the 2004 model, which I think has lumbar support for seats, yet no telescopic steering column. Seen quite a few priced pretty dang high used, but then again, it is not the actual sell price now is it. Don't know why these had a 3.2, then a 2.8 and a 3.6 engine. The one they rate highly is the 3.6, so that's the ticket ! May look in a year or two - ah can we say $15K
I would like a slightly larger Solstice Coupe'. Something around 175" long, and maybe an inch wider, though it measure wide enough. Did not seem that wide inside? And with a Japanese engine :surprise: Or put a six in there. Don't know about these US for bangers.
-Loren
This car is the most luxurious car outside of a maybach on the market. I don't know how Lexus continues to keep innovating such high scale technologies. If I was very well off I'd park this car for sure in my garage and make my wife drive me all over.
Loren, how quickly my taste can change. Imagine that
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/AutoshowArticles/articleId=109978#2
I'm not sure what GM has in store for the STS or some other big Rear Wheel Driver, but they better get back to the drawing board ASAP !!!! :surprise:
I also have to comment on this subject. Anyone see the new Acura RDX ? Whoa !!!! That is a very nice SUV for the $$$$$ :shades: The next MDX sure looks to be promising and very nice. I think some would agree with me right now (presently) that Acura offers the most luxury, performance, gadgetology, technology, efficiency, out of any car manufactor on the market. There SH-AWD is getting put on everything, which really helps safety, and of course performance. Infiniti has the nice option of Rear Active Steer which really helps a big car feel small. The M45 pulled a very strong Benchmark for it's size of .91 g's on the skidpad which is remarkable. Unfortunatly you can't get the beauty of AWD to go along with the rear Active Steer system, which by a very slim margin makes the SH-AWD system perhaps a bit more attractive.
If Nissan would upgrade the Infiniti G35 to Acura levels of technology/gadgetology and in fit and finish, that car would be crown king of the 3 series category. The G35 has the Rear Active Steer ystem as a option. Unfortunately it lacks 5.1 or better DVD Surround Sound, ventilated seats, voice recognition, etc etc to make a much better car than the competition.
If the Caddy gets the exterior/interior of the car shown on 60 minutes, and also get's gadetology of Acura/Lexus, I will probably park a new CTS in my driveway. I probably would start digging under the couch cushions for enough change to get the sedan Performance Icon in the 505+ horsepower CTS-V :shades:
Did anyone check out the Aura on the NYC Autoshow ? I think it's going to be a great start at taking a few pieces of the pie from the dominant camcord. The hybrid option featured by next spring will really make it a hot seller in my book. Especially like many of you say if the price point is good. The Saturn Greenline is the cheapest Hybrid SUV money can buy, perhaps GM spliting the costs of the new 2-stage hybrid motor with Chrysler and BMW, will provide a advantage to GM, and they might beable to keep the prices cheap enough to make the Aura the least expensive high volume hybrid car on the market
Well thanx for your opinion Loren, and everyone else feel free to comment and voice your opinions on anything I just talked about.
Rocky
My bottom line:
The Lexus IS 350 would be alot better car with a stick and a defeat function on the VDIM computer nannies. If it would of had a stick, and a defeat switch for the VDIM, I would of perhaps overlooked the snug backseat and would probably be a owner of the IS 350 right now, because otherwise I really like it alot but just couldn't overlook these two bad flaws.
Rocky
the shoulders of its popular Solstice, saw the biggest decline in shopper
ages – from 54 in the first quarter of 2005 down to 41 in the first quarter
of 2006 – Edmunds.com recently reported, citing a new report by market
research firm CNW. At the same time, Toyota has seen a dramatic 11-percent
increase in the average age of its shoppers, even factoring in its Scion
youth brand. The average age of Toyota shoppers was 40.5 in 2005 and is 45
in 2006. This report is an important sign of progress for Pontiac, and an
important sign of danger for Toyota, Edmunds.com concluded.
this is an unbelievable drop in average age. The Solstice sales alone would not be able to drop the average anywhere near this much. The new G6 must be bringing in much younger buyers. Also the Bonneville buyers now gone are not bringing the age up. Doubt if the Grand Prix or minivan buyers changed much (unless the more youthful Solstice/G6 shoppers opted up to the Grand Prix).
Poor conclusion. A "buyer" and a "shopper" are not the same thing, as the article you've cited notes. You can't use the sales numbers as an indicator of the number of shoppers.
I'll presume that a "shopper" is based upon traffic into the dealership, and possibly might include those who request information. The Solstice could be generating foot traffic into dealerships, which counts toward the "shoppers" factoid.
The real question for GM is whether those who have taken an interest in the Solstice will be led to other products in the Pontiac or GM lineup as a result of it igniting interest -- after all, that should be the main objective for that car. If you remove Solstice sales from the equation, Pontiac overall sales dropped 6.5% between 1Q2005 and 1Q2006, so I would have my doubts about this.
I agree. That goes with what I've seen in the Bay Area - the G6 and the Torrent have younger owners, and there are many more G6s than Torrents.
Rocky
Some, like the G6 coupe just feel strange to me once inside. But then again, so does the Accord coupe. You see nothing up front but a very large dashboard, with no hood showing at all. The A pillars are thick and stuck out there far ahead. Then there is the price. Cost in vs, residual value is plain horrid. Initial quality seems to be above average, which is of course a good. The sedan looks odd. Something about it looks off. And it looks smaller than it really is. Compared to the cheaper Sonata V6 and value packed, or the superior Camry, this car is once again Lost in Space.
-Loren
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
P.S.
The 6-speed GXP G6 with 270 horsepower on tap will smoke em' to
How is the stick in a CTS? Never seen one.
-Loren
3.6L Standard Starting at $32,690*
3.6L V6 VVT with 255 hp
6-speed manual transmission, stainless steel exhaust, 16-in X 7-in aluminum wheels
8-way power front bucket seats, AM/FM stereo/CD player, heated outside mirrors and more (from Cadillac site)
Rocky
When the smoke clears, the RWD Mustang will be far ahead.
I think the Camry is 268HP and the Sonata is 235HP and sells at a discounted $19,500 sticker price. And that includes stability control, anti-lock, side air bags and all the rest.
If you like the G6 coupe you can get the Accord or Camry for a few clams more and have the real deal.
-Loren
(Idle thought: what if Bob Lutz woke up on the other side of the bed back in 2002 and decided to rebadge the Commodore as the Chevy Impala SS?)
Maybe it's a media conspiracy ? :confuse:
Rocky
Rocky
BMW buyers (in the US, anyway) want the badge, the bragging rights from the bill of sale, and the road handling, in no particular order. Unabashed straight-line running is the province of V8 300C and Mustang buyers, and you may pick up a few disgruntled Lincoln LS owners if the ride is sufficiently friendly and the price tag is sufficiently low.
What the heck is a Calais ?
BMW buyers (in the US, anyway) want the badge, the bragging rights from the bill of sale, and the road handling, in no particular order.
The distance between a BMW and other cars in the terms of handling was wide. Today it has shrunk signifactly and in come cases is a hair better. I however would rather have a slightly worse handling car and have 150+ horsepower for straigh-line burst that a BMW can't and will never match GM.
Unabashed straight-line running is the province of V8 300C and Mustang buyers, and you may pick up a few disgruntled Lincoln LS owners if the ride is sufficiently friendly and the price tag is sufficiently low.
Also don't forget the GMers.
Rocky
http://www.holden.com.au/www-holden/action/modeloverview?modelid=6000
The distance between a BMW and other cars in the terms of handling was wide. Today it has shrunk signifactly and in come cases is a hair better.
True enough. BMW's these days are so badly overweight that the handling inevitably suffers, dragging them down to within striking distance of their competitors.