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Where Is Ford taking the Lincoln Motor Company?



  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 13,585
    BTW- Acura TL MSRP $36K-loaded. CTS-V MSRP $53K-loaded !!!!

    Yeah if you pay MSRP. Its good to know people ;)

    I'll take that savings and buy a good turbo, tires, and a suspension.

    Actually I wouldn't have saved much getting the Acura.

    You couldn't handle a FWD sport/lux whipping your butt all over the place, or could ya.

    It won't happen, you will always be in my mirrors, that is until you disappeared. :shades:

    2008 Sebring Ragtop, 2011 Hyundai Sonata.

  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,993
    Well I was only trying to stir you up a little. I know the TL can't beat the CTS-V. ;)

    BTW- Do you get a GM employee discount like myself ????

    I actually will seriously consider a 07' CTS-V if the "fit and finish" with 500+ hp. can justify the price and it's not made in China by then. :mad: Grrrrrrrr!!!!

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 13,585
    No I do not get the GM employee discount. I can get a discount at Ford (I think its called the X-plan pricing).

    2008 Sebring Ragtop, 2011 Hyundai Sonata.

  • pernaperna Posts: 533
    BTW- Do you get a GM employee discount like myself ????

    I actually will seriously consider a 07' CTS-V if the "fit and finish" with 500+ hp. can justify the price and it's not made in China by then. Grrrrrrrr!!!!

    I would be shocked if you could get GMS on a CTS-V. I think GM treats them like Ford does their highline vehicles such as Mustang Cobras or Harley F-150s - employees are SOL. I could be wrong though, they're not consistent with their vehicle exclusions.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,993
    I can go down to the local GM dealer and buy one at GMS right now. The only vehicles excluded are the Corvette, and XLR. Some initial vehicle launches like the new STS they put a restraint for GMS elgible people. It wasn't until October of 04' to use you GMS on the STS. So basically that summer you were screwed. You couldn't do the order until October because I was considering one. ;) The 2007 CTS-V might be a similar deal when it gets launched ? I am going to check into it next summer/fall ;)

  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    Where is Ford taking Lincoln? It looks like they are trying as much as possible to meet the Cadillac model range on a shoe string budget. The Zephyr is a quick stopgap, because they can no longer field the LS to match the CTS. The hoary old Town Car has to be kept because they have no other answer to the DTS. The badge engineered F150 with a Lincoln grill meets the Caddy pickup. And now they will have the Navigator L to compete with the extended Escalade.

    Still, they have nothing to field against STS, XLR, SRX V8 or the V-series. Nor have they decided on an identifiable look as all Caddys now have. Lincoln's additions of the MKX, and later the MKS, will address a bit of this, but an identifiable look is still far on the horizon (Navigator is going its own way except for the Zephyr style tail lights, the MKS is a completely new look, the MKX borrows a grill theme from the 60's, the Zephyr is more boxy, and the Mark LT looks like an F150 with additional chrome).

    I wonder if they might be better off to target Buick and Chrysler right now, until they regain some traction with some standout models that can rise above the 300 or the Lucerne. Dump badge engineered Mercury and connect the Lincoln franchise with Ford stores.

    But I don't think they are considering any drastic changes like that--at least not yet. I think the hope is the models in the pipeline can again make them a credible competitor for Cadillac again. We'll see soon enough.
  • weskiweski Posts: 2
    As a lady boomer, I love my 2000 Lincoln LS. Daughter just bought new Fusion - looks like a mini me LS. However, I think it is time to move on - but to what? Zephyr is not thrilling. Don't want to pay $40k for Lexus. Drive mountains, but not enough to need an SUV. However, I would like to get more ground clearance than the LS, plus front wheel or AWD. Mostly city/suburban driving, don't need major engine, but need more than a V4 or hybrid due to skiing. Suggestions?
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    Stay with Ford in an Escape or Mariner?

    Wait for the MK X or Edge crossover?

    Tell the truth if it were me (and I have an '01 LS so I think I know what u like sorta) I'd seriously look at the Subaru Outback. AWD, not big like an SUV, but still lots of room, crisp handling, good gas mileage and performance with the small engine, not so good mileage but seriously exciting performance with the turbo, ground clearance like a Cherokee, in the mid 20s to low 30s depending on equip.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    My inside sources tell me Lincoln doesn't plan to follow Cadillac upmarket, so that's why you see no obvious reaction to Cadillac's product line. Sadly, that puts Lincoln directly into the Buick market - which drives me crazy, frankly. But, Bill thinks Jaguar, Volvo, Land Rover and Aston Martin are the Ford luxury cars, (Which GM doesn't have any of, BTW), so Lincoln can be the new Buick, much less costly to make that way. But it cheapens the brand that I have loved for 15 years - it pained me to buy a Lexus sedan this time, but I had to. Lincoln left me no choice, after driving Lincolns for so long, happily. :sick:
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    Well said, nv. Our own ANT here has said several times that Lincoln is no longer striving to be a true luxury brand but will settle for the Buick level. Apparently Ford is giving up on matching the Japanese and European brands and is hoping they can produce cars equivalent to the LaCrosse and Lucerne now. That used to be Mercury's job but now they have taken Mercury down-market and basically are trying to make that the Female Ford. The net result for me is that, although I have owned 3 Mercurys and 3 Lincolns there is nothing in the entire LM stable that interests me any more. Sad cause I recall in 2001 at a meeting with Jim Rogers in Irvine how exciting the prospects were for Lincoln at that time. The LS promised a new way for Lincoln and more great cars were in the pipe.

    And here we in are with 2 Mazda-Lincolns, no more LS and a minivan or something in the pipe. ANd a new Navigator that won the "Worst in Show" award in Chicago. Oh and a Volvo-Lincoln with a motorcycle engine that looks like an Oldsmobile in a couple or three years. Maybe.

    Then I see Bill Ford on TV in a really pathetic ad, looking like a politician with a bunch of little kids around telling us how much Ford cares about our children. Is he a democrat running for office now? Is he trying to make up for all the Explorer roll-overs and exploding Crown-Vic police cars? What the he** is he doing? He speaks of American innovation but he is laying off most of the American engineers who made it thru Nasser's racist purges. And most of Ford's products now are based on Japanese or European engineering. Who the he** does he think he's kidding?

    Lastly, IMHO, Bill Ford looks and sounds like a doofus. And IMHO he should stay as far away from the cameras as possible. Seeing and hearing him does nothing to inspire me to buy a Ford product.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    I agree. They need to get Mr. Ford out of commercials ASAP. He has the charisma of Al Gore. It would also be good to spend those dollars promoting products they have to sell right now.

    So I was right when I thought Lincoln is becoming the "new Mercury." What is strange though is that Lincoln is still making an (admittedly half-hearted) attempt to match Cadillac's line-up.

    Perhaps that will cease if the "new" Navigator with cheese grater grill fails. Of course, one can never underestimate the taste of "bling" buyers, so it might sell OK. In which case, Lincoln will remain an amalgam covering the territories of Mercury, Buick and Cadillac. Things could be worse.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    Yeah, Bill Ford-Gore. Good point.

    I don't see where they're making any attempt to match Cadillac. Caddy has gone RWD for their performance sedans. Lincoln has gone FWD with AWD option. Caddy actually HAS performance sedans. Several of them. Plus a beautiful 2 seat convertible. Lincoln has the Town Car and the Zephyr. The Z won't even be a performance sedan with the 3.5 never mind the 3.0 And don't forget the Lincoln's driver-oriented shifter: "D or L" your choice! Heey!

    Caddy has a 400HP motor for their big SUV AND cylinder deactivation. Much more power AND better gas mileage. And thier SUVs do have 'bling'. The new Navigator is just plain ugly. It looks like a Chevy Silverado front with a huge chrome bug deflector. ANd they took the best interior in the industry and cheapened it and made it remind me of the dashboard on the Versailles. IMHO, if you want a big SUV now, there is NO reason to look at the Navigator. The Caddy is far superior. (Rethinking this - the Nav may still ride and handle better, I dunno if Caddy has IRS on the Escalade.)

    The Aviator is going away to be replaced by a Mazda with the front end of an AMC Spirit and the dashboard off a '61 Comet. Like the Z, it'll be made in Mexico (I think) Sorry, Bill, I'd sooner get a Subaru.

    The MK S will be here in what, 2009? ANd that has the engine from a motorcycle manufacturer. AFAIK, there's nothing else in the pipe except possibly Lincoln's take on the VW Vanagon and perhaps a replacement for the TC. I got a bridge for sale if you think either of those will be 'driver's' cars.

    Does Mercury have a 'driver's' car? HAHAHAHA

    Ford has the Mustang with live axle rear suspension. And that's IT from Ford. Well, except for the GT. Sure, I'll take one of those and a Vantage, Bill. Thanks for NUTHIN. You have forced almost every LS owner to go European or Japanese for their next car, with Caddy a possibility. All the rappers are already gone to Caddy, even Magic Johnson couldn't stop that exodus. As I said in another thread, Lincoln is now courting Afro-Americans, Mercury wants to be a woman's car, Jaguar advertises in gay-lifestyle mags, where does that leave me?
    I'll repeat the answer someone posted in the other thread:

  • Remember when you were a kid and you would torture an anthill? When an ant got "broken" in half it would quickly run around in circles, until it died.

    That seems to be Fords "plan" for Lincoln.
    There seems to be no true vision, just a bunch of flailing attempts at badge engineering of recycled products.

    Throwing a cheese grater grille and some maple trim on a Ford is what Mercury should be, not Lincoln.

    I'm sure Billy Ford never paid out of his pocket for a car he had to live with for years, but he's delusional if he thinks that Range Rover and Jaguars quality issues are ever going to be overcome to the point these brands get the kind acceptance to be sold in volume.

    Their Connelly leather baggage is way too full to ever be overcome.

    Volvo isn't hopeless, but I fear someday Ford will do what GM has done to Saab and we'll see Explorers with a diagonal bar across the grille.
    I do have to give them credit, they haven't screwed up Mazda.

    Advice: Forget the useless corporate jewelry you bought in England and focus on what's right under your nose.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    Yes, Jaguar is a very expensive basket case. And the next new S-Type, allegedly their bread and butter, isn't due for two years. Good luck. Been some pretty cars over the years, and lousy service.

    Land Rover is doing well now (though reliability remains a big issue), and should do even better with a new Freelander. Volvo and Mazda are both bright spots too. But they cannot carry Ford (and Lincoln Mercury) and Ford will not survive with only the F150 and Mustang as widely desirable. A lot is riding on the Edge and an update of the 500. The Fairlane won't be here for awhile yet.

    BTW, if you ever see Explorers with diagonal bars across the grills, can you say Studebaker Packard? That is a formula for DOA.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    ROFLMAO! Both you and gregg's comments on Bill Ford and his ads are hysterical, and true! I knew there was some reason I liked you guys....

    George: I've not see pics of the front of the new Navigator or the interior. Only the Zephyr rear taillights. Can you tell me where I can find pics of the whole 07? Thanks, NV
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046

    Laughter is the best medicine. :>)

    I actually like the tail treatment on the new Navigator. Except they left off the chrome around the license plate and this is the one time it would have worked well with the tail lights. I guess they figured the chrome mines would go empty what with all the other chrome they've got on it now.

    As for the interior (don't miss the rectangular 70's-style guages which replace the beautiful backlit white guages on ours) and the front end treatment (have a barf bag handy) decide for yourself: -avigator-l/#more-1646

    is one place to see it. Read the comments after the article. They're priceless.

    (Well, I guess scooter beat me to the punch. But there's more at left lane and the comments are worth the trip.)
  • Maybe Ford's plan is to make the grille so controversial that no one will think to open the hood and notice the Cadillac has 103 more horsepower.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    Well, if Lincoln is serious about moving downmarket a bit (Chrysler, Buick, old Mercury), then the hp difference is not long as the Nav is significantly cheaper than the Escalade. The Yukon Denali has been cut in price and I hope Lincoln matches with a lower price of their own.

    Of course the Denali still has 75 more hp. Why Ford saw fit to cancel the Hurricane engine program is very strange. They must know that they are behind in the powertrain race--and have been for years.

    And they don't even use what they have. It could be a market edge to offer the diesel in the Navigator. And what about the V10? Maybe not the most refined offering, but the cubic inches wouldn't hurt.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    Unfortunately, that post is no longer available on the LeftLane....

    You don't mean to tell me they put the guages from the Zephyr in there do you? They were left over from the 80 Cougar, I believe. What else did they screw up, not that it matters, this monstrosity, I would not want just from the 64 Continental grille up front. Yuk. How sad. I hear the death knell ringing now. The Navigator was the class act of the brand. I should have bought the 06.

    Why DID Ford cancel the Hurricane engine project? Had to be money.

    And as to why the V-10 & Diesel aren't offered in the Navigator is easy - the sub-frame and front end can't handle the weight. For those engines, you need to build on the F-250 frame right now. That may be fixed later, but hopefully it won't create the problems GM has with their trucks, when they put the big engines in the same frame trucks. They get a lot of harmonic bounce at freeway speeds from a wobbly frame.

    Well - I guess I won't be missing my Navigator anymore. :sick:
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    Ok, just showed this picture of the 07 Nav to my wife. Asked for her reaction. She said, "Oh, is that the new Escalade"? This must be where the focus groups took them, but the more I look at it, the worse I like it. Where is the trademark waterfall grille? Is this the new look of Lincoln? Can't imagine a town car with this grille. OTOH, the New Mark Z (aka Zephyr) has an eggcrate grille too, so this must be the new look of Lincoln. How sad.
    Can you tell I'm greatly disappointed? Anybody listening out there? Scooter, got a pic of the interior? I'd love to see what they cheapened in there.....
  • Wife:
    "That looks classy, but in a over-the-top way. Is that a Cadillac or something? I really like it"

    7 year old son:
    "That looks like the Expedition, but fancy"
  • fintailfintail Posts: 42,950
    Those gauges look very 70s, IMO. And that front end is very pimpy, I chuckled when I first saw the pic
  • ...And the seats have a baggy, square stitched pattern, like the one's in the '77 Continental my Grandparents had.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    of similarities to the old Continentals here, including the instrument cluster that, if I recall correctly, resembles the about 70 Continental. All the center stack of controls are the same as a Ford 500, Fusion, etc. That doesn't impress me. Glad they stayed with the theme, but clearly, they cheaped out, the class is now lacking. I knew they'd have to change the interior, as this truck is based on the F-150, and the past one was not, it was unique.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    ANT @ Ford tells me the Hurricane Engine hasn't been cancelled at all. He says, like with any storm, you never know when it's going to strike. So potentially, it could show up in the Navigator someday, making it competitive in the power department. Or not....I don't know. But ANT would know.
  • "I knew they'd have to change the interior, as this truck is based on the F-150, and the past one was not, it was unique."

    Sorry, it's not based on THIS F-150.
    The body shell is still the same one used for the last 10 years.
    That's why they use that foot wide piece of plastic on the bottom of the doors - to hide the 1997 F-150 body lines.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    Ok, state your source, scooter - because my source who works for Ford in design, said (and I owned 2 of them) my 03 Navigator's interior would not fit into the new 07 Navigator - because the size changed when it became based upon the new F-150 body. This is why the Mark LT didn't get the Navigator interior. So, what's up? :confuse:
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    What's up is you are getting a mixed message.

    The 07 Navigator has some of the front end frame modifications used under the F150. This modified architecture will be used going forward until something even better supercedes it.

    And as stated many times before, it does have a new front clip, new interior trim, new transmission, and new tailgate. The body shell itself has not been modified since 1998 (when it was based on the 1997 F150), except for some stiffening...which may have changed some interior trim mounting points.

    The same doors, windshield and sideglass remain since 1998(the rear sideglass was very slightly modified along with the changed liftgate in 2003). That is not to say it is the same vehicle as a 1998, but the cowl, A and B pillars, etc., have been recycled longer what occurs with most SUVs.

    Look at it this way...I think for most people, it is easier to see the same body shell sharing when comparing the 2005 Explorer and the 2006. However, the differences between the 2006 and 2007 Navs are comparable to the 05 to 06 Explorer changes. Explorer received a completely new front clip, new interior trim, new tailgate, chassis stiffening, more sound deadening, a new transmission, some different exterior trim a stronger V8 (which the Nav unfortunately is not getting).
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