The LaCrosse is a tarted up Pontiac Grand Prix, albeit a much nicer car than the Grand Prix - and a good example of GM's poor job of platform sharing. Now the Lucerne, that's an example of a good job of platform sharing, and it's a very nice car. An MKS killer? Very possibly.
>GM seems to have a plan for Cadillac. Unique design theme; better job of differentiating their models from the other GM models whose platforms they share; better job of marketing; better job of defining Cadillac's mission. Ford, on the other hand, does not seem to have a plan for Lincoln.<
Well, yes, GM had a plan for Cadillac and it's working. That seems to be the ONLY plan GM has had for years. Ford, unfortunately has a plan for Lincoln - not to follow Cadillac up market, and let such customers look at Jaguar. I'm not sure that's all that flawed - except in my case, where they used to make the perfect car for me, and now they don't, and the Jaguar is just a little too low for my taste (to the ground I mean).
Plus, Jaguar sales are tanking, and they are too pricey (with the exception of the mediocre X-Type) for most Lincoln buyers.
BTW, the low to the ground thing is passe--the new Jaguars resemble the old ones, but they are no longer "low". Good or bad, it is one identifiable Jaguar trait the new ones have abandoned, even while keeping the old Jaguar look. Thus the new ones aren't as sleek looking as the old ones, even while being more modern. I wonder if that hasn't also been part of the reason their sales have dived.
BTW, while I don't like the Impala, LaCrosse and LeMans, this is an example of platform sharing where the triplets do not look at all like one another. If only Ford could figure that out.
Touche. I like GM's plan for Cadillac better than Ford's plan for Lincoln!
I think in the long run it works better for GM. Moving Cadillac, which everyone knows is GM, back up-market kind of pulls the whole GM reputation up. Relying on Jaguar, which many may not associate with Ford, for the up-market brand does nothing to enhance Ford's panache.
It's interesting to join this site. Last 4 cars were Mark 8 and then 3 LS's. Disappointing to see Ford downsize Lincoln since 2004 (and earlier, yes) and to further emphasize SUVs and pickups. LS was a decent car but they are eliminating that (bought three of them!), to move to a series of 6 cylinder Fords with a Lincoln name on it but not much buyer attraction. Oh, I forgot there will be some Lincoln trucks--WOW, who is smoking what about the Lincoln name means any more or where their market is, a Lincoln truck? Hey, Lincoln, what do you stand for if your new car is a glitzed up Ford 6 cylinder? Dump Jaguar, which is a limited brand with bad quality images, and spruce up Lincoln again to compete with Cadillac and BMW, or fold Lincoln up as a meaningless brand that you have shown you can't handle.
Good idea, but ain't gonna happen. Ford has thrown too many billions at Jaguar, and will continue throwing good money after bad. Jaguar: pretty cars, but not outstanding performers and with dismal reliability still. Too many other luxury brands that do it better.
Ford's British brands will never overcome their well-earned reputations. Ford is run by utter fools if they think either brand will ever sell in enough volume to be anything other than liabilities.
Their Jaguar fiasco is ego-fueled and is nothing more than a piece of corporate jewelry.
Jaguar has indeed consumed $6Bn of Ford Motor's corporate cash. It has yet to make a profit for Ford. What is not true is that its reliability is low, the new Xk/XJ chassis have consistently scored in the top ten for J.D. Powers customer satisfaction and reliabiliy, and Harbour Associates ranked the Castle Bromwich and Gaydon plants as some of the best in Europe---certainly number one in the Ford Motor Empire. The same is true of Wixom where Lincoln will be built for 15 more months.
The V/H aluminum architecture at Jaguar/Astons is an industry leader along with the use of aluminum substructures. The Jaguar bodyshell weighs 60% less than its steel counterpart, weighing roughly 220Kg or 400 pounds. The weight difference in the bodyshell is equal to the weight of all the passengers in the car. The performance curve is therefore enhanced as a result. The variable platform used by both allows quick design and production of varients, the Rapide being done in six months from a drawing to a driving car. Jaguar/Astons also represents the first of CAD/CAM Rapid Prototyping method at Ford, which provided demonstration of the technology that was subsequently used for Zephyr. The net result is that the current XK Coupe/Convertible has a bodyshell with 30% less components and welds required with greater rigidity---3,000 welds versus 5,000, and an equal change in the type of extrusions and aluminum castings required. Build tolerances were increased according to Russ Varney, the programs engineer for Jaguar---"We were able to build 7 prototypes instead of the 100 it used to require...the first was nearly perfect. We were able to get to that last .01%" Jaguar/Astons represents a new level of quality that Ford Motor here-to-fore has never been able to achieve since the 1960's. Aston/Jaguar also has its own engine casting plant in Cologne (Koln) Germany---able to make precision V12 and high performance V8 engines. These motors could be used for Lincoln...
Jaguar has lost money for Ford because it expanded far too rapidly, going from a brand that sold 8,000-25,000 cars per year in America over the decades and then attempting to sell ten times that many all while expanding its customer base that it never had before. Too much too soon. Had they built the XJ/XK and improved its reputation for quality and performance first, and then offered a 'mini' Jag that would have worked. As its stands, dealers were flooded with cars that the public was unsure of, and in some cases never wanted. One reason why the Reitzle Expansion and Revival Plan for Lincoln was rejected: it took money away from Jaguar, and Ford executives thought they could make it their corporate BMW...without understanding the instrinsic appeal of Jaguar...(having pushed and driven some of the finest Jags from XK150's, E 4.2Litre and V12 convertibles, to name a few I have a fair understanding of the marque.) Plus, the Brown's Lane plant was built in 1919 and infrequently modernised---why they switched to Castle Bromwich. In short, investment costs required were twice what was needed, and the market wasn't ready to accept 150,000 Jaguars where it used to sell 50,000 worldwide.
If anything, Ford Motor has the resources and the people to build V12 Lincolns again, using aluminum variable architecture, appeal to the traditional blue-blooded American Lincoln driver, all while retaining the style for which Lincoln was once noted. They could easily market cars as Zephyr for $29,000 and add horsepower, likewise sell a Lincoln at $49,500-59,000 with high performance V8's, and an exclusive V12 in sedan and convertible form. Imperial is coming...and they will equipe the new car with V10 and SRT8 engines. Where is Lincoln? The late shift at Hermisilio and Chicago...that is all that remains.
Simply put...there's no champion at Ford Motor for Lincoln. They are clearly trying to downgrade the brand...much like Oldsmobile at GM. If they succeed in implimenting their current plan...it will take more than the blue-jeans set to save it. All they will need to decide it what inscription to put on the headstone, and the press release announcing the end of Lincoln.
My understanding is that Ford Motor Company is profitable world-wide but is losing money in its North American operations. Is Lincoln, as a division of Ford, profitable, or is it part of the North American money-losing operation?
Your post is excellent. Of course Jaguar quality is vastly improved, and individual models may even excel by some yardsticks. Overall though, Jaguar, along with Lincoln and Land Rover, still sits near the bottom of reliability rankings.
And aluminum bodies, though light and strong, are still very expensive to insure and repair. I can't help but think this may be a factor affecting sales. Along with the lukewarm Jaguar styling. The new XJ body was increased several inches in height in an attempt to overcome the packaging difficulties the low-slung Jaguar sedans have always had. At the same time, they tried to copy the old look. The result was a car that both looked too much like the previous generation and at the same time lost some of the sense of sleekness the old inefficient packaging afforded. (Or in the case of the S Type, introduced a more upright and chunky profile while still providing only a very tight back seat for the size.)
Proposed Jaguar concepts correct some of those deficiencies of style and cannot get here soon enough. I could see Lincoln, Mercury, and Jaguar all toast in the next few years.
Re: GW, yes Lincoln is part of North American Operations. Under Wolfgang Reitzle's brief tennure Lincoln had been moved to the PAG Group---where it should have remained. PAG had a London and California Design studios which served the group well. Ford cut back on both.
Last year Ford Motor made an overall profit of $3.374Bn, with the Finance Arm making $4.392Bn and the Auto arm losing $1.018Bn in North America. Ford made $646 per car on financing, and lost $492 a car building it. Another L1.3Bn was funnelled into Jaguar, roughly $1.6Bn. Total Revenues were $154.5Bn, with an average sales price of $22,729 per vehicle. Ford Motor was profitable in Europe, the Pacific/Asia, South Americas and Africa. It lost $1.552Bn in North America, and PAG Group overall lost $100Mn last year. In America Ford sold two trucks for every car it sold, 2,129,280 to 1,038,876 sales. PAG sales dropped from 212,000 last year to 198,000, though revenues increased from $7.847Bn to $8.002Bn. PAG lost $255Mn last year and posted a small profit of $46Mn on sales, but that was erased by write-downs and further cash infusion to Jaguar.
Had Lincoln remained with PAG, separating it from Ford-Mercury, cost sharing for Astons/Jaguar could have been spread out over another 150,000 units. Lincoln could have benefited from the cross-sharing of technology that Astons/Jaguar hold. Lincoln could have appealed in a very unique American manner to the marketplace while benefiting from the design and engineering represented in Astons and the Gaydon Plant. Lincoln could likewise have been marketed overseas, much as 300, Buick and Cadillac are today---in Europe and Asia. None of those suggestions were accepted.
If the current XJ/XK are not accepted and Jaguar sales continue to drop by the double digits they are experiencing, there will be less cash for future development of either brand---profits from Zephyr being drained off for Jaguar. It is not the product at Jaguar that is necessarily bad, it is the marketing approach which is often regarded as a joke---even by Britons.
The same holds true with the trashing of the venerable Zephyr Name. Zephyr sales dropped the second month after production began so The Glass House panicked and changed the name for Geneva. Silly! Soon Lincoln will just become a panopoly of alphabet soup: Z, S, NL, etc. No romance there---and Nissan will inevitably challenge the use of the Z name.
Wixom is being closed not because the plant can't build a great car, it is being closed because Ford is unwilling to upgrade and revamp the plant---they could do for Wixom what was done at Crewe for Bentley---no, it is being closed because there is nothing new for Lincoln to build in its place. So the numbers look bad as Town Car rolls into its ninth year without another refreshment or replacement. All Bill Ford Jr. is doing with respect to Lincoln is creating customers for Cadillac, Buick and Imperial.
DouglasR
(PS, thanks for the compliment; Sources: Ford Motor Annual Report 2005)
Douglas, is Imperial a definite go? As a separate brand for Diamler-Chrysler, or as an upmarket model for Chrysler? Do you have any insights into where D-C plans on position Imperial vis-a-vis Chrysler and Mercedes?
Positioning of Lincoln seemed to be one of PAGs problems - didn't want it to get too upmarket and drain sales from Jag, so they didn't do anything w/ Lincoln. Now, it's going downmarket, it seems.
DT: Brampton, which builds the 300C platform, is almost at capacity building 932 cars per day. A third shift would have to be added or a separate Imperial/Challenger shunt-line to accomodate. That Imperial will be built is not now the problem, for DCX it is where to make it? Ralph Gilles, one of the designers of the 300, and with Freeman Thomas (whose now at Ford) who penned the concept, just got promoted this week at head of Chrysler design---so there is impetus to get it built. Unlike Lincoln, Chrysler generally does build its show-cars. Imperial can be ready by 2009...and two different platforms are being considered for it...one of which can accomodate the V10 and V12 engines within the DCX stable and has a 126.2" wheelbase. Imperial will take away many sales from Lincoln, period.
Rumor has it that a separate facility for Imperial and Challenger is being considered at Brampton...though I have not enough confirmation to make that a fact, Chrylser is spending another $1Bn for its North American Operations in 2006. That Chrysler is planning to go up-market is without doubt, and they will not make the Maybach Mistake...Mr. Zeitsche will see to that. Expect it to sell in the $50K price range---above Lincoln and below the V Series Cadillac---with twice the power punch of Lincoln and a match for Cadillac.
Imperial alone is the reason why the downgrading of Lincoln, (and subsequent elimination if the next generation of Lincolns fails), is now so important with respect to Lincoln's future. Yes, they are planning something on the Ford 500 chassis, but that alone will not be enough. They have all the resources at their disposal and still enough design and engineering talent to make Lincoln a real player in the marketplace. Dr. Ulrich Bez at Astons should be put in charge in addition to his Aston/Jaguar duties.
Sadly, come 2020, 100 years after the first Lincoln was built, I doubt given the current and immediate plans within the Glass House for Lincoln, that there will still be a serious Lincoln rolling off the assembly line, if at all. If Ford wants to play the name game, they should name their next serious Lincoln Model L-II in honor of Mr. Leland's accomplishment and its development under Edsel Ford. Ford Motor still has access to $25Bn in cash to develop Lincoln. Will Mr. Mays and Mr. Horbury make the case?
So, if Jr. was running Daimlerchrysler He'd sabotage Chrysler so it wouldn't compete with Mercedes? Get rid of that Hemi nonsense! America wants V-6 front wheel drive Luxury cars!
I guess the success of Dodge, Chrysler and Mercedes prove him wrong about his fantasy that frustrated Lincoln buyers will turn instead to Jaguar. No, they'll turn to a different manufacturer.
I'm one of those frustrated Lincoln drivers, who when I needed a Sedan instead of another Navigator, found the Town Car too bland and non-luxurious inside, the LS too small in the back seat, and too low, but a hellova car performance wise, and the Zephyr, well, frankly, to be a joke. It's a nice Fusion......
So, I'm driving a Lexus now. Shame on you, Bill.....
I may be alone on this one, but I don't see a problem with Lincoln being on the lower end of the luxury market so long as its prices are as well. I see the segment as being crowded on top with very few options on the lower price end. At around 35 grand the only options with nav would be the Zephyr and TL. Anything else is pretty much 40+. Lincoln should IMO go after Acura on the lower end with a focus on high equipment per dollar, nice interior and high reliability.
I just don't believe consumers view Lincoln in the same league as Lexus, MB, BMW and Audi for the moment. On another board several months back there was a poll as to where in prestige various luxury brands fit. Sadly, Lincoln did not make it on anybody's list. Let Lincoln re-establish itself as a viable high luxury contender and then challenge the upper price and performance end at that time.
ST: yes there is a market for high performance V6 engines, even when installed in the odd fashion of driving the front wheels, preventing the age old habit of steering with your right foot. Times and technology change giving consumers more options and different standards. Had I grown up begining to drive a 1968 Toyota Corolla or (God fobid) a Datsun B210, I might think the same way---in fairness to your point of view my friend had the first Honda Civic CVCC in late 1974 in D.C. We had sooo much fun driving that car on the Golf Course, evading friends and (police) when we were going too fast by driving where no big American car could go. It was the 70's when our country was much freer than it is today. But...the Honda and its ilk had several drawbacks, chief among them that it could not haul that much, and had a low terminal velocity...the thrumming of the engine on long trips was interminable. But that was 30 years ago. V6 engines are excellent today and make a good FIRST START. But if you want ultimate power and performance, a V6 will NOT do.
My diatribe, comments, complaints, etc., are not directed towards the entry level of the market for Lincoln---Zephyr and its soon-to-be uprated engine are fine in the lower braket. Lincoln simply can't compete at the top end. And therein lies its doom. We aren't talking about a Pontiac or a Buick...this is Lincoln which once led the industry.
There remains an even more serious issue: Take Lincoln out of the picture and Cadillac (plus a renascent Imperial) are all that will remain of the domestic luxury marques. Our country once was the world-wide leader in the segment. Our country once was the home of the Springfield Rolls-Royce plant, and its generally accepted that American made Rolls-Royce were improved upon the British Derby built chassis. They were certainly better looking. Only Cadillac seems now to understand that to stay at the top rank, you must lead, you must incorporate within your design time honored traits---that no front-wheel drive car has ever attained save Errett Loban Cord's 1936 FWD Cord. Great Cars at the top of the market simply aren't front wheel drive, though the chance for any fwd car to better its rwd or awd counterparts is slim. If I am spending big dollars for a car, fwd will NOT be part of the equation---that is reserved for runabouts, mini-vans, and the occassional sports car. There's nothing wrong with a good performance V6 in an fwd chassis, it can be quite invigorating and fun. But Luxury and fwd have never been the seu que non of great luxury marques. Chrysler would not now be selling 13,000 300's per month with no let up, if there were not an army of Americans who feel as I do, that we have been neglected for a long time.
Make no mistake, habour no doubt: a portion of Americans (roughly 27%) love fwd cars, for that is what they grew up with...but the majority of them purchase cars whose motive power passes through the rear wheels. All of the great luxury cars today and in the past, 99% of them (save Cord, Toronado, and Eldorado) have been rear wheel drive. I've had the occassion to work on both formats, and if I am spending $100K plus for a car, fwd won't be part of the equation.
Lincoln needs, as it always has, to have part of their traditional base maintained...Cadillac lost a great deal of their market when they stopped making rwd cars. Lincoln survived and succeed in part because they never did. The LS would have been awful had it been fwd, that car succeeded because it was rwd. It is this base with which I speak. A fwd Lincoln is OK, but won't save the company.
The sad truth is that Ford Motor Company has not only the resources, the cash, the engineers, and the design talent to make a great Lincoln and Continental again, but that there is no one person standing up for the marque within the walls of the Glass House. If anything, William C. Ford Sr. should say something.
The chance is now to build a new factory, or revamp Wixom. The chance is now to build a great new Lincoln based on Rapid Prototyping, ICEM/Surf computer technology for virtual manufacture, incorporate the finest that the industry has to offer and let the public judge. The chance is now to checkmate the competition before it is too late. It's more than a war of attrition in the marketplace. Jobs, careers, futures, and the answer to the question of whether America will continue to lead in the markeplace wrest within the decisions they make with respect to Lincoln.
I for one will never save my money for a 'Red Flag' Limosine built in Bejjing.
Yes, Lincoln had some luck in being so slow to react to things, and thus did not go through the total FWD changeover as Cadillac once did. Thus, Lincoln outsold Cadillac by 2000...but must have been too busy patting themselves on the back to notice that they had no new cars beyond the LS in the pipeline. Meanwhile, Cadillac scrambled and regained traction...with RWD.
RWD need not be that complex or expensive. Look at Mustang. Lincoln did it for decades without having to overengineer the thing. Even so, the LS could have worked with more upmarket styling and interior, and a few more models based on it. The 2 seater Thunderbird was late, and a blunder...that was no way to build volume for an expensive chassis.
So now there is nothing on the way in the foreseeable future beyond a warmed over Navigator to go up against a completely new Escalade, the MKX which is another fancy Ford, the FWD V6 fancy Ford MKZ, the FWD based AWD fancy 500 MKS (which also emulates a lot of Japanese machinery), and another as yet unnamed MKS-type sedan with even longer overhangs. Great.
Before Lincoln could now do a Cadillac-style line-up switcheroo, sales would have to increase a lot and Jaguar would have to stabilize. Instead we are more likely to see a requiem for both.
The Ford division can pretty much cover the ground Mercury and (now) Lincoln occupy. Volvo can provide some luxury sales (albeit not RWD for now), and later Ford, if it survives and prospers, could resurrect either a Continental or an XJ rear drive luxury sedan a la Imperial.
I see plenty of Zephyr ads. Mainly the one where a skateboarder is intrigued by it. Now THAT's a Lincoln buyer, eh marketing folks? A skateboarder. Ad says NOTHING about the car, just a quick-change video of one driving around.
Well, I saw that Imperial concept recently in photos and I agree with the Autoextremist that it is one BUTT-Ugly car. IMHO, the Imperial would have won the coveted 'worst-of-show' award were it not for the even uglier 2007 Navigator.
This being the ninth year of the same TC, our 94 Signature still running well, I'm not interested in replacing it. However if Jaguar had more than one dealer for the whole state of Oregon, an XJ8 would soon replace the TC. That's not going to happen so I patiently wait to see what the 07 Towncar will be. If it is another version of the 98, then the XJ8 is our next Ford. RWD is a requirement.
The 07 Town Car is already guaranteed to be essentially the same as the 98. The MKS will be an 08 model, and the larger 500-based sedan that allegedly will replace the TC, won't be released until some time after that.
Some nice deals on the XJ, given it is not selling really well.
Well, you're right deanvit - Lincoln is now considered "near luxury", just like Acura. Acura is probably their direct competition now. Some of us who have driven Lincolns through their glory days, when they outsold Cadillac, think it's a crying shame that they have now been relegated to "near luxury", but that's exactly what the Zephyr is, and sadly, the Town Car has been decontented inside to the point where it is the same. :sick:
"Some nice deals on the XJ, given it is not selling really well."
Originally, the XJ was going to be my "Sedanola move" when I divorced the Navigator (it was an amicable divorce). But when I tried it out - it was hard for me to get out of - too low to the ground, and the door opening was a tad small. The Town Car is perfect in height and size - but the interior is only "Near Luxury" or maybe Near Livery, now. Doesn't work for me.
Acura yea its a entry-lux brand, but its moving up. Lincoln is also a entry lux brand, but Hyundai is not in the same league as Lincoln. heck not even Buick or Mercury.
Lincoln is still considered a Luxury brand by many people.. and a Lincoln buyer im sure would never consider setting foot at a Hynudai dealership no matter how good Hynudai makes its cars.
But Hyundai has begun to take the Toyota tactic of covering many segments of the market (econoboxes all the way to Avalon and Land Cruiser). Hyundai choice and quality continue to improve.
Hyundai does not seem to have any intention of becoming a luxury division. At the same time, when I do replace my present sedan, I will cross-shop Lincoln, Hyundai and others that provide a package that can meet my wants and needs.
I read something a few years ago that said to seperate Kia and Hyundai, Hyundai would move up market and set BMW as it target, while Kia would focus on Chevrolet. While the statement seemed absurd at the time, its clear that Hyundai has made attempts to move up market.
"What ? How can you compare a Lincoln to a Acura. A Acura is a real luxury car, while the Lincoln would be more of a Hyundai Azera competitor."
5 years ago, I would absolutely not have - and would have been insulted if YOU compared a Lincoln to an Acura - because the Lincolns were luxury, and Acura has never truly been luxury - no V8 engines for one. However, things have changed. Acura is getting some real style inside going now, good features, and while still lacking an engine, Lincoln has moved down significantly, cheapening the brand to the point, that I now would consider them at par. Near, luxury. :sick:
"Acura is getting some real style inside going now, good features"
We differ on that opinion, but then, that's why they're called opinions. I thought the TL was just too much - too many textures and materials, too many angles, too much bling. My wife said "it's very Japanese, very "Transformer" cartoon." Someone here used the phrase "Tokyo by night" and I think that's pretty accurate. I actually prefer the more understated current and future Lincoln interiors to the Acura. I did like the Lexus ES330 interior, though.
However, I'm a fuddy-duddy, and I miss the spartan interior of my Volvo 240.
Ford has got to seperate Lincoln from other Ford products. Cadillac has come a long, long way in image and product. My feelings are Ford should drop Mercury. Take the money saved and shift it to Lincoln. Build cars/crossovers to compete head to head with both Cadillac, Lexus, BMW, DC, Acura. Time to drop the Mercury brand that are just rebadged Fords anyway. Ford needs a luxo car brand and name here in the U.S. Are you listening Ford??
Scape - everybody thinks Ford should dump Mercury - but it's not gonna happen. Elena Ford runs the division, and her influence seems to be making all Mercurys more "woman friendly". I think that's funny, because I'm old enough to remember the ad campaign from 1969, where Mercury was dubbed, "The Man's Car"....... Secondly, without the Mercurys, Lincoln dealers would fail. Not enough product.
As for rebadging - I don't get why Ford gets such a bad rap for that. Everybody does it. GM does it, Chrysler does it, Even Toyota does it to a limited degree, Hyundai does it, in a less obvious way.
Perhaps Ford is currently the King of Rebadge these days - but.....
In the "old days" Ford was an entry-level product and Mercury was a definite step up. Mercurys looked a lot more like Lincolns. I don't know if I could pinpoint when Lincoln stopped being a great car - perhaps it was when they put the Town Car on a Ford Fairmont frame.
US auto makers have no one to blame for themselves for their troubles. In the early 80's Reagan manipulated the currency market in an effort to curb Japanese imports. The Yen became very expensive. US auto makers responded by upping the price of their cars, piling benefits on the unions, and bloating their companies. Nothing (or nearly nothing) was put into advanced development - as is clearly evident now.
I think Ford gets a bad rap because of what you said: they do it the most, and in the most obvious ways. It negatively affects sales, especially of bogus "redesigns."
Nothing wrong with platform sharing. But if a struggling company like GM sees fit to take three relatively mediocre cars sharing the same platform like the Impala, Grand Prix and LaCrosse and not share one bit of external body among them, then I suspect they are taking a cue from those companies whose sales keep increasing year after year.
BTW, Elena Ford's approach to saving Mercury only raised sales from truly awful to bad, where they have now stalled. Lincoln may need Mercury, but on one else apparently does.
In my opinion, it was 1998 when Lincoln stopped being a great LUXURY car. They are still good cars, but the luxury is gone. The Town Car has NEVER been on a Fairmont (Fox) platform. The Continentals from 83 to 87 were, but they weren't bad cars, and were very luxurious. Frankly, they were better than their beautiful looking replacements in 88, which were FWD and built on the Taurus platform. I've never owned a Town Car, but have rented zillions of them. I did own 2 Continentals.
I had a 90 Silver Anniversary Continental, and a 92 Executive. I loved the limosine roofline, room and luxury of those cars. I also liked the economy. The mileage was good. But they aged quickly mechanically, especially in hot climates. After 4 years, mine was done.
You are right about the history part. Lincoln could build a bet er vehicle but wont. Take the MKX, nice automatic but not enough engine. That V8 has been around for about 3 years now. On a 2007 car it should at least make 375 horses. GM and Ford dont seem to be interested in using the tech to bring their engines on line with everyone else. Case in point the Duratec engine still makes 200 horse and all the Asians have made 240 and above for about four years now. Lincoln should follow a different path by using lots of aluminum and making their cars much lighter. 300lbs lighter and with at least 375 horses made with the EH process (FORD knows how to do this well) direct injection,five valves per cylinder and VVTi would actually give it about 450 ponies if done right. It seems noone their wants to take up the challenge to not go out of business. This car would destroy on comers. Instead we get a reskinned VOLVO. I dont might the ALLWHEEL drive (think AUDI) or the look. I just had that all of my favorite auto companys are so far behind and scared to do what is needed to be the best. :mad:
Thanks for the clarification. It has been a long time since I read about that in a Motor Trend/Car&Driver/other article. Luxury car on a Ford Fairmont frame - a possible oxymoron - the point I was tryng to make. I thought the Continental was a nice looking car. Did it ever have a V-8?? I don't share that perspective on the Town car, though. A truly ugly car. I was "lucky" enough to get a free upgrade once. Just about the worst controls and plastic stick on interior trim available in the automotive market.
Oh, and yes, the 83-87 Continentals came with the 5.0L V-8. 1988 saw the introduction of the 3.8L corporate V-6 Essex engine. While the car would out accelerate the Cadillac 4.1L Aluminum Leaker V-8, the engine would generally not be mistaken for a V-8.
I thought the last generation of Continental was hideous, with it's 4 foot overhangs front and rear. It was clearly just a V-6 front wheel drive, fleet sedan wearing a mask trying to dress up like something it wasn't.
Come to think of it, that sounds like the Zephyr, or whatever it's being called now.
The overhangs were large, but the 98 trimmed the butt by 2" which helped a lot. 275 hp in that era was pretty good. Although not my cup of tea, the last ones were more competitive with (and no worse looking) than the Seville. But here's yet another example of Ford discontinuing a model before its replacement was ready. Ford is the "king" of doing that too (along with being current top dog of badge engineering).
Scooter - you talk with authority - but you're not always posted on the facts. The last generation of Continental had the 4.6L Intech 32 valve DOHC V-8 in it, exclusively.
The ones I am referring to had the Taurus V-6, I guess that was the 1988-1994 series. Once they had ruined the Continental name with that embarassment, I guess I never paid attention again--Neither did the car buying public.
88-94 Continental was a great design - but a poor execution, and the worst car Ford made at the time. It didn't get the Taurus Vulcan V-6, it had the Essex 3.8L corporate V-6, that had made it's debut in the 82 Granada, and 83 LTD & Thunderbird. The Taurus got that 3.8L engine as an optional upgrade in 88, true enough, but it was more the Taurus got the Lincoln engine than the Lincoln got the Taurus engine. I guess technically, you could say the Lincoln got the Thunderbird engine....if you want to.
It was still the worst car Ford made. And it never recovered until about 98 - by then it was too late.
Comments
Well, yes, GM had a plan for Cadillac and it's working. That seems to be the ONLY plan GM has had for years. Ford, unfortunately has a plan for Lincoln - not to follow Cadillac up market, and let such customers look at Jaguar.
I'm not sure that's all that flawed - except in my case, where they used to make the perfect car for me, and now they don't, and the Jaguar is just a little too low for my taste (to the ground I mean).
BTW, the low to the ground thing is passe--the new Jaguars resemble the old ones, but they are no longer "low". Good or bad, it is one identifiable Jaguar trait the new ones have abandoned, even while keeping the old Jaguar look. Thus the new ones aren't as sleek looking as the old ones, even while being more modern. I wonder if that hasn't also been part of the reason their sales have dived.
BTW, while I don't like the Impala, LaCrosse and LeMans, this is an example of platform sharing where the triplets do not look at all like one another. If only Ford could figure that out.
I think in the long run it works better for GM. Moving Cadillac, which everyone knows is GM, back up-market kind of pulls the whole GM reputation up. Relying on Jaguar, which many may not associate with Ford, for the up-market brand does nothing to enhance Ford's panache.
Their Jaguar fiasco is ego-fueled and is nothing more than a piece of corporate jewelry.
Jaguar has indeed consumed $6Bn of Ford Motor's corporate cash. It has yet to make a profit for Ford. What is not true is that its reliability is low, the new Xk/XJ chassis have consistently scored in the top ten for J.D. Powers customer satisfaction and reliabiliy, and Harbour Associates ranked the Castle Bromwich and Gaydon plants as some of the best in Europe---certainly number one in the Ford Motor Empire. The same is true of Wixom where Lincoln will be built for 15 more months.
The V/H aluminum architecture at Jaguar/Astons is an industry leader along with the use of aluminum substructures. The Jaguar bodyshell weighs 60% less than its steel counterpart, weighing roughly 220Kg or 400 pounds. The weight difference in the bodyshell is equal to the weight of all the passengers in the car. The performance curve is therefore enhanced as a result. The variable platform used by both allows quick design and production of varients, the Rapide being done in six months from a drawing to a driving car. Jaguar/Astons also represents the first of CAD/CAM Rapid Prototyping method at Ford, which provided demonstration of the technology that was subsequently used for Zephyr. The net result is that the current XK Coupe/Convertible has a bodyshell with 30% less components and welds required with greater rigidity---3,000 welds versus 5,000, and an equal change in the type of extrusions and aluminum castings required. Build tolerances were increased according to Russ Varney, the programs engineer for Jaguar---"We were able to build 7 prototypes instead of the 100 it used to require...the first was nearly perfect. We were able to get to that last .01%" Jaguar/Astons represents a new level of quality that Ford Motor here-to-fore has never been able to achieve since the 1960's. Aston/Jaguar also has its own engine casting plant in Cologne (Koln) Germany---able to make precision V12 and high performance V8 engines. These motors could be used for Lincoln...
Jaguar has lost money for Ford because it expanded far too rapidly, going from a brand that sold 8,000-25,000 cars per year in America over the decades and then attempting to sell ten times that many all while expanding its customer base that it never had before. Too much too soon. Had they built the XJ/XK and improved its reputation for quality and performance first, and then offered a 'mini' Jag that would have worked. As its stands, dealers were flooded with cars that the public was unsure of, and in some cases never wanted. One reason why the Reitzle Expansion and Revival Plan for Lincoln was rejected: it took money away from Jaguar, and Ford executives thought they could make it their corporate BMW...without understanding the instrinsic appeal of Jaguar...(having pushed and driven some of the finest Jags from XK150's, E 4.2Litre and V12 convertibles, to name a few I have a fair understanding of the marque.) Plus, the Brown's Lane plant was built in 1919 and infrequently modernised---why they switched to Castle Bromwich. In short, investment costs required were twice what was needed, and the market wasn't ready to accept 150,000 Jaguars where it used to sell 50,000 worldwide.
If anything, Ford Motor has the resources and the people to build V12 Lincolns again, using aluminum variable architecture, appeal to the traditional blue-blooded American Lincoln driver, all while retaining the style for which Lincoln was once noted. They could easily market cars as Zephyr for $29,000 and add horsepower, likewise sell a Lincoln at $49,500-59,000 with high performance V8's, and an exclusive V12 in sedan and convertible form. Imperial is coming...and they will equipe the new car with V10 and SRT8 engines. Where is Lincoln? The late shift at Hermisilio and Chicago...that is all that remains.
Simply put...there's no champion at Ford Motor for Lincoln. They are clearly trying to downgrade the brand...much like Oldsmobile at GM. If they succeed in implimenting their current plan...it will take more than the blue-jeans set to save it. All they will need to decide it what inscription to put on the headstone, and the press release announcing the end of Lincoln.
DouglasR
(Sources; Ward's Automotive, Edmunds Online)
And aluminum bodies, though light and strong, are still very expensive to insure and repair. I can't help but think this may be a factor affecting sales. Along with the lukewarm Jaguar styling. The new XJ body was increased several inches in height in an attempt to overcome the packaging difficulties the low-slung Jaguar sedans have always had. At the same time, they tried to copy the old look. The result was a car that both looked too much like the previous generation and at the same time lost some of the sense of sleekness the old inefficient packaging afforded. (Or in the case of the S Type, introduced a more upright and chunky profile while still providing only a very tight back seat for the size.)
Proposed Jaguar concepts correct some of those deficiencies of style and cannot get here soon enough. I could see Lincoln, Mercury, and Jaguar all toast in the next few years.
Last year Ford Motor made an overall profit of $3.374Bn, with the Finance Arm making $4.392Bn and the Auto arm losing $1.018Bn in North America. Ford made $646 per car on financing, and lost $492 a car building it. Another L1.3Bn was funnelled into Jaguar, roughly $1.6Bn. Total Revenues were $154.5Bn, with an average sales price of $22,729 per vehicle. Ford Motor was profitable in Europe, the Pacific/Asia, South Americas and Africa. It lost $1.552Bn in North America, and PAG Group overall lost $100Mn last year. In America Ford sold two trucks for every car it sold, 2,129,280 to 1,038,876 sales. PAG sales dropped from 212,000 last year to 198,000, though revenues increased from $7.847Bn to $8.002Bn. PAG lost $255Mn last year and posted a small profit of $46Mn on sales, but that was erased by write-downs and further cash infusion to Jaguar.
Had Lincoln remained with PAG, separating it from Ford-Mercury, cost sharing for Astons/Jaguar could have been spread out over another 150,000 units. Lincoln could have benefited from the cross-sharing of technology that Astons/Jaguar hold. Lincoln could have appealed in a very unique American manner to the marketplace while benefiting from the design and engineering represented in Astons and the Gaydon Plant. Lincoln could likewise have been marketed overseas, much as 300, Buick and Cadillac are today---in Europe and Asia. None of those suggestions were accepted.
If the current XJ/XK are not accepted and Jaguar sales continue to drop by the double digits they are experiencing, there will be less cash for future development of either brand---profits from Zephyr being drained off for Jaguar. It is not the product at Jaguar that is necessarily bad, it is the marketing approach which is often regarded as a joke---even by Britons.
The same holds true with the trashing of the venerable Zephyr Name. Zephyr sales dropped the second month after production began so The Glass House panicked and changed the name for Geneva. Silly! Soon Lincoln will just become a panopoly of alphabet soup: Z, S, NL, etc. No romance there---and Nissan will inevitably challenge the use of the Z name.
Wixom is being closed not because the plant can't build a great car, it is being closed because Ford is unwilling to upgrade and revamp the plant---they could do for Wixom what was done at Crewe for Bentley---no, it is being closed because there is nothing new for Lincoln to build in its place. So the numbers look bad as Town Car rolls into its ninth year without another refreshment or replacement. All Bill Ford Jr. is doing with respect to Lincoln is creating customers for Cadillac, Buick and Imperial.
DouglasR
(PS, thanks for the compliment; Sources: Ford Motor Annual Report 2005)
Positioning of Lincoln seemed to be one of PAGs problems - didn't want it to get too upmarket and drain sales from Jag, so they didn't do anything w/ Lincoln. Now, it's going downmarket, it seems.
Rumor has it that a separate facility for Imperial and Challenger is being considered at Brampton...though I have not enough confirmation to make that a fact, Chrylser is spending another $1Bn for its North American Operations in 2006. That Chrysler is planning to go up-market is without doubt, and they will not make the Maybach Mistake...Mr. Zeitsche will see to that. Expect it to sell in the $50K price range---above Lincoln and below the V Series Cadillac---with twice the power punch of Lincoln and a match for Cadillac.
Imperial alone is the reason why the downgrading of Lincoln, (and subsequent elimination if the next generation of Lincolns fails), is now so important with respect to Lincoln's future. Yes, they are planning something on the Ford 500 chassis, but that alone will not be enough. They have all the resources at their disposal and still enough design and engineering talent to make Lincoln a real player in the marketplace. Dr. Ulrich Bez at Astons should be put in charge in addition to his Aston/Jaguar duties.
Sadly, come 2020, 100 years after the first Lincoln was built, I doubt given the current and immediate plans within the Glass House for Lincoln, that there will still be a serious Lincoln rolling off the assembly line, if at all. If Ford wants to play the name game, they should name their next serious Lincoln Model L-II in honor of Mr. Leland's accomplishment and its development under Edsel Ford. Ford Motor still has access to $25Bn in cash to develop Lincoln. Will Mr. Mays and Mr. Horbury make the case?
DouglasR
Get rid of that Hemi nonsense!
America wants V-6 front wheel drive Luxury cars!
I guess the success of Dodge, Chrysler and Mercedes prove him wrong about his fantasy that frustrated Lincoln buyers will turn instead to Jaguar.
No, they'll turn to a different manufacturer.
So, I'm driving a Lexus now. Shame on you,
Bill.....
I just don't believe consumers view Lincoln in the same league as Lexus, MB, BMW and Audi for the moment. On another board several months back there was a poll as to where in prestige various luxury brands fit. Sadly, Lincoln did not make it on anybody's list. Let Lincoln re-establish itself as a viable high luxury contender and then challenge the upper price and performance end at that time.
My diatribe, comments, complaints, etc., are not directed towards the entry level of the market for Lincoln---Zephyr and its soon-to-be uprated engine are fine in the lower braket. Lincoln simply can't compete at the top end. And therein lies its doom. We aren't talking about a Pontiac or a Buick...this is Lincoln which once led the industry.
There remains an even more serious issue: Take Lincoln out of the picture and Cadillac (plus a renascent Imperial) are all that will remain of the domestic luxury marques. Our country once was the world-wide leader in the segment. Our country once was the home of the Springfield Rolls-Royce plant, and its generally accepted that American made Rolls-Royce were improved upon the British Derby built chassis. They were certainly better looking. Only Cadillac seems now to understand that to stay at the top rank, you must lead, you must incorporate within your design time honored traits---that no front-wheel drive car has ever attained save Errett Loban Cord's 1936 FWD Cord. Great Cars at the top of the market simply aren't front wheel drive, though the chance for any fwd car to better its rwd or awd counterparts is slim. If I am spending big dollars for a car, fwd will NOT be part of the equation---that is reserved for runabouts, mini-vans, and the occassional sports car. There's nothing wrong with a good performance V6 in an fwd chassis, it can be quite invigorating and fun. But Luxury and fwd have never been the seu que non of great luxury marques. Chrysler would not now be selling 13,000 300's per month with no let up, if there were not an army of Americans who feel as I do, that we have been neglected for a long time.
Make no mistake, habour no doubt: a portion of Americans (roughly 27%) love fwd cars, for that is what they grew up with...but the majority of them purchase cars whose motive power passes through the rear wheels. All of the great luxury cars today and in the past, 99% of them (save Cord, Toronado, and Eldorado) have been rear wheel drive. I've had the occassion to work on both formats, and if I am spending $100K plus for a car, fwd won't be part of the equation.
Lincoln needs, as it always has, to have part of their traditional base maintained...Cadillac lost a great deal of their market when they stopped making rwd cars. Lincoln survived and succeed in part because they never did. The LS would have been awful had it been fwd, that car succeeded because it was rwd. It is this base with which I speak. A fwd Lincoln is OK, but won't save the company.
The sad truth is that Ford Motor Company has not only the resources, the cash, the engineers, and the design talent to make a great Lincoln and Continental again, but that there is no one person standing up for the marque within the walls of the Glass House. If anything, William C. Ford Sr. should say something.
The chance is now to build a new factory, or revamp Wixom. The chance is now to build a great new Lincoln based on Rapid Prototyping, ICEM/Surf computer technology for virtual manufacture, incorporate the finest that the industry has to offer and let the public judge. The chance is now to checkmate the competition before it is too late. It's more than a war of attrition in the marketplace. Jobs, careers, futures, and the answer to the question of whether America will continue to lead in the markeplace wrest within the decisions they make with respect to Lincoln.
I for one will never save my money for a 'Red Flag' Limosine built in Bejjing.
DouglasR
Thats why the rear wheel drive CTS is a big hit with Cadillac.
No, they'll turn to a different manufacturer.
Cadillac did a good job enticing this Lincoln fan.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
RWD need not be that complex or expensive. Look at Mustang. Lincoln did it for decades without having to overengineer the thing. Even so, the LS could have worked with more upmarket styling and interior, and a few more models based on it. The 2 seater Thunderbird was late, and a blunder...that was no way to build volume for an expensive chassis.
So now there is nothing on the way in the foreseeable future beyond a warmed over Navigator to go up against a completely new Escalade, the MKX which is another fancy Ford, the FWD V6 fancy Ford MKZ, the FWD based AWD fancy 500 MKS (which also emulates a lot of Japanese machinery), and another as yet unnamed MKS-type sedan with even longer overhangs. Great.
Before Lincoln could now do a Cadillac-style line-up switcheroo, sales would have to increase a lot and Jaguar would have to stabilize. Instead we are more likely to see a requiem for both.
The Ford division can pretty much cover the ground Mercury and (now) Lincoln occupy. Volvo can provide some luxury sales (albeit not RWD for now), and later Ford, if it survives and prospers, could resurrect either a Continental or an XJ rear drive luxury sedan a la Imperial.
Some nice deals on the XJ, given it is not selling really well.
Originally, the XJ was going to be my "Sedanola move" when I divorced the Navigator (it was an amicable divorce). But when I tried it out - it was hard for me to get out of - too low to the ground, and the door opening was a tad small. The Town Car is perfect in height and size - but the interior is only "Near Luxury" or maybe Near Livery, now. Doesn't work for me.
Rocky
Lincoln is still considered a Luxury brand by many people.. and a Lincoln buyer im sure would never consider setting foot at a Hynudai dealership no matter how good Hynudai makes its cars.
But Hyundai has begun to take the Toyota tactic of covering many segments of the market (econoboxes all the way to Avalon and Land Cruiser). Hyundai choice and quality continue to improve.
Hyundai does not seem to have any intention of becoming a luxury division. At the same time, when I do replace my present sedan, I will cross-shop Lincoln, Hyundai and others that provide a package that can meet my wants and needs.
5 years ago, I would absolutely not have - and would have been insulted if YOU compared a Lincoln to an Acura - because the Lincolns were luxury, and Acura has never truly been luxury - no V8 engines for one. However, things have changed. Acura is getting some real style inside going now, good features, and while still lacking an engine, Lincoln has moved down significantly, cheapening the brand to the point, that I now would consider them at par. Near, luxury. :sick:
We differ on that opinion, but then, that's why they're called opinions. I thought the TL was just too much - too many textures and materials, too many angles, too much bling. My wife said "it's very Japanese, very "Transformer" cartoon." Someone here used the phrase "Tokyo by night" and I think that's pretty accurate. I actually prefer the more understated current and future Lincoln interiors to the Acura. I did like the Lexus ES330 interior, though.
However, I'm a fuddy-duddy, and I miss the spartan interior of my Volvo 240.
As for rebadging - I don't get why Ford gets such a bad rap for that. Everybody does it. GM does it, Chrysler does it, Even Toyota does it to a limited degree, Hyundai does it, in a less obvious way.
Perhaps Ford is currently the King of Rebadge these days - but.....
US auto makers have no one to blame for themselves for their troubles. In the early 80's Reagan manipulated the currency market in an effort to curb Japanese imports. The Yen became very expensive. US auto makers responded by upping the price of their cars, piling benefits on the unions, and bloating their companies. Nothing (or nearly nothing) was put into advanced development - as is clearly evident now.
Nothing wrong with platform sharing. But if a struggling company like GM sees fit to take three relatively mediocre cars sharing the same platform like the Impala, Grand Prix and LaCrosse and not share one bit of external body among them, then I suspect they are taking a cue from those companies whose sales keep increasing year after year.
BTW, Elena Ford's approach to saving Mercury only raised sales from truly awful to bad, where they have now stalled. Lincoln may need Mercury, but on one else apparently does.
It was clearly just a V-6 front wheel drive, fleet sedan wearing a mask trying to dress up like something it wasn't.
Come to think of it, that sounds like the Zephyr, or whatever it's being called now.
Once they had ruined the Continental name with that embarassment, I guess I never paid attention again--Neither did the car buying public.
It was still the worst car Ford made. And it never recovered until about 98 - by then it was too late.
Rocky