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Comments
0-60 LS 7.5 CTS 6.1
skidpad LS .84 CTS .87
DB @ WOT LS 74 CTS 76
DB @ 70 LS 67 CTS 67
Clearly, some advances have been made in the past 8 years. A late model LS with the VVT engine would narrow the acceleration gap. The newer ones might be better on the skidpad, too. As I indicated in my own review of the CTS, the engine is noisier and thrashier than an LS V8. No doubt the CTS has a higher quality and better assembled interior than the LS.
My own LS is a bit different animal than yours or the one akirby had. Mine is a non-sport version and I have comfort-biased Michelin tires that are exceptionally quiet and plush. It would not have the razor sharp handling that you like but it rides very nice and quiet. It still has that great RWD feel and balance in spite of being a bit softer than the sport version.
As for the XF, I would cut it some slack in terms of rear seat room because I love the AJ V8 under its hood. I also think the XF interior and exterior are a big step above the CTS. With the XF, though, we are looking at $55,000 with appropriate options.
When I bought my LS, I used it for business and traveled all the highways and 2-lanes in Iowa and Nebraska. I put 60,000 miles on it in 2 years. Then I got transferred to the bowels of Minneapolis and the LS has become more of a commuter car. My travel is by plane and rental car now. The roads here are a rough, frost heaved, expansion-jointed mess. I now am looking for ride quality, quiet, and isolation more than all out handling. I still want strong acceleration, though - better than I have now.
Joe, yes. Gregg - notsomuch.
Of course that's only because we haven't discussed manual trannies in a long time.
I mean, who in their right mind would want a manual transmission nowadays, right Steve? :P
Many would agree, Allen, especially those who know me well.
The Acura with a manual is a joy. The LS served me well, but eight years is enough. Hope it goes to a good home. We'll see in a few weeks.
Come on now - you don't have to go away.
You're just one of many who got excited by Lincoln and the LS only to be totally abandoned a few years later, and that's obvious in your criticism of everything Lincoln does.
Anything that Lincoln does short of releasing a brand new, updated LS right NOW is stupid. MKT is stupid. So is the MKX and MKZ. Navigator is stupid because the sheet metal and engine is dated. GRWD is stupid because the aussies only know how to build cheap cars. Mulally is stupid. The MKS is stupid because it's FWD. Ecoboost is stupid.
Did I miss anything?
Joe - that Mazda engine shares nothing with Ford's Ecoboost engines. The Mazda is also obviously tuned for performance rather than fuel economy. Ford is already seeing a significant fuel economy savings with the Ecoboost over a similarly powerful NA engine with 2 more cylinders. I don't remember if it was a press release or one of the executives in an interview but in testing they were seeing something in the neighborhood of 20%-30% better fuel economy for the 3.5L ecoboost over a similarly powerful V8. And they've been running F150 prototypes with the 3.5L ecoboost engine for at least 18 months if not longer.
Talking with a former ford engineer (and there seem to be a lot of those lately) the problem with Ford previously was there was no corporate commitment to fuel economy so there was no incentive for the individual teams to contribute to overall fuel economy. Bill Ford was always more concerned about emissions.
I don't think Ford would advertise this if they weren't absolutely sure they could achieve it - especially with the current situation.
We just got our LS back from the body shop yesterday. My wife was beaming when she came home. "I'm SOOOO glad I dont have to drive that Accord anymore." This would make a great Ford commercial IF ONLY THEY .... oops, calm down.
Come on now - you don't have to go away. "
Good one!
"...list of Ford failings redacted ..." "Did I miss anything?"
Well, yeah, but no time now. I didn't miss you saying this though:
" When it's time to get rid of the Fusion I'll consider the MKS and maybe even a CTS ...." :surprise:
Mustang GT convertible manual ... yeah that would be fun.
Yeah, the baby one -- a TSX, manual trans & no nav. The TSX is essentially the same as the European Accord - much stiffer suspension & smaller than the Accords they sell over here.
"Ford Motor Company is bringing rear-wheel drive development back to the U.S. from Australia. The automaker has green lighted a vehicle platform that will provide the basis for a new generation of rear-wheel-drive cars." Staffwriter Bryce Hoffman has reported today in the Detroit News. The story was confirmed by Ford Executive Derrick Kuzak, in charge of product development at Ford Motor. This balances the possibility that Alan R. Mulally will return to Boeing after a third delay in the 787 Dreamliner program. Ford Motor announced six possible succession candidates, one of whom is Lewis Booth, Ford/Europe's CEO who has driven The Blue Oval's performance in Europe to record sales and profits.
This means that "Platto's Plattoon" of designers working on Lincoln and Design Chief Gordon Platto can rev up the MKR, a new Town Car, and a Continental Series derivative. However, Ford Motor admits that it is still $2-3Bn short in returning to profitability for Q1 2009. It must cut $778 per vehicle in costs in order to turn the tide. The competition is hard on their heels with VWAG CEO Martin Winterkorn declaring that VWAG will triple its U.S. sales and open a new assembly plant for North America based on dollar exchange---they are gunning for the Blue Oval without doubt.
MK S begins production this month in Chicago, if not today. The conquest design aimed squarely at Infiniti and Lexus under the aegis of Peter Horbury must bring in 35,000 sales within the next 18 months in order to be regarded as a success, and 120,000 over the next three and half years. This will provide the path for Lincoln until the new generation of cars are ready in 2011/12. The 48 month goal for Lincoln represents a "crash" program equal to what Chrysler achieved with its L/H platform in 1989-1992. While S is an admirable attempt based on the existing Ford Motor "Layer Cake" and the Taurus/500 chassis, it will be the MkR that must save the day for Lincoln and successor Town Car/Continental.
Lincoln can't hope that S will succeed to the degree that CTS has, with sales on that Cadillac model increasing 81% over last year. But while we might not like the style of the car, at least it represents action on the part of Ford Motor executives to prevent the further languishing of the Lincoln marque. To that end Gordon Platto and his team of designers showed off MK R, S, and T at the Architectural Digest Home Show to bring Lincoln into the design forefront and eschelons of customers, engineers, and desgners from other fields that might never cross the threshold of a Lincoln dealer.
We can only hope that MR. Booth can successfully ride heard on the Lincoln team once he takes the reins of Ford Motor from Alan R. Mulally.
DouglasR
Sources: Detroit News; FT; WSJ; Ford Motor Company
I also don't believe it will take that long to get a new RWD platform out the door here in the U.S. The 2011 model year is only 2 -2.5 years away.
Contracts can be broken or amended, but it doesn't smell like he's jumping ship early to me. Who knows. The stock hit a new low just a couple of weeks ago when it closed a bit under $5 a share.
I hope that appeases all of the naysayers who didn't think an Aussie designed platform was suitable for Lincoln.
I hope that appeases all of the naysayers who didn't think an Aussie designed platform was suitable for Lincoln."
Hmmm...maybe. But like I said, this is the 'plan o' the week'. If the dollar rises again, they may switch back to Australia. How much work has been done to date if they can just switch from down under to here?
Also, are they going to fast-track it and put BOTH remaining US engineers on it? :sick:
Good grief you're pessimistic! I heard they're putting all 3 of them on the project. :P
Seriously - Mulally doesn't strike me as a "plan of the week" CEO. I do think they're forced to constantly re-evaluate where and how they spend their resources. At this point it should still be a joint design in cyberspace so I don't think switching the lead engineering team would have a dramatic effect.
Mulally gets bashed for not letting the U.S. team lead the engineering. Then when he does give it to the U.S. team he gets bashed for being wishy-washy. I guess some things never change. :lemon:
Are you sure? I know it's a Ford design, but you're going to be cared for by TATA.....which leaves me VERY uncomfortable. Wherein I used to seriously consider getting a Range Rover, I no longer will. I don't want to own a Hindu car. I have no idea if they know what they're doing or how to handle Americans. Based upon their call centers, they do not.
The call centers are one of the myriad of reasons that the middle class is seeing phenomenal growth; multi-national corporations see nothing but opportunity in a country that has many times the advance degreed workers available than here in the US.
I suspect they know what they are doing, as they are as familiar with American culture and methods as their own, something we certainly cannot say about our familiarity with Indian ways. Indians are here, and American-born and European-born Indians are going back there and making waves. I believe Tata has a better chance of growing Jaguar and LR than Ford ever did. I guess we will see in due time.
There is some inside info that Ford is about to retrofit several idled truck and SUV factories/assembly lines to produce small cars including some European models based on strong demand for smaller cars and the U.S. dollar situation.
Ford has studied this in the past but always concluded it couldn't be done. Apparently now Mulally has told them to do it NOW or there won't be a company, and he's not accepting any excuses. The euro focus, transit and transit connect were mentioned but that's all rumor at this point.
The fact that Mulally is forcing things to happen in months and not waiting for committees and boards to make decisions is refreshing. It's also the reason I think Ford is light years ahead of GM in regards to changing the way they do business and being able to compete with the world going forward.
" the middle class is seeing phenomenal growth; multi-national corporations see nothing but opportunity in a country that has many times the advance degreed workers available than here in the US. "
While the American middle class shrinks. And a LOT of the blame for the above statement lies with the PATHETIC schools in this country (USA). Dragged down due to ESL students and PC-world impositions on teachers re student behaviour, and LCD students dragging down the rest of the class, we are heading inevitably down.
I've known plenty of Indian H1Bs etc in Silicon Valley and almost ALL of them, when they have children who reach school age, send the children back to India to be educated. Unfortunately, Americans dont have that choice so our kids will just fall further behind. Call me a pessimist if u want. I am a realist.
More on the crash retooling:
Ford Said to be Studying Crash-Dive Retooling Program
You put out the fire or you die. Doing it the "old way" is not an option. If you don't want to do it the new way, the door is over there. That sort of thing.
Should be interesting to watch.
I choose not to participate, but I am sat here, munching my popcorn.
Tata is such an enormous company that owns so many different companies in so many different industries that you have probably used their products in the past without even realizing it.
http://www.tata.com/
Remember Tata already owns Corus steel and combined with their own steel company they are the fifth largest steel company in the world. They own one of the best tea companies in the world in Teatley tea and they own many chemical companies including a few in the US.
Tata will do fine in the US market with Land Rover and Jaguar. Remember that for the most part Ford left Land Rover alone and just provided money for development plus help with emissions and other compliance type issues. Ford stuck their noise in Jag all the time but they messed with Land Rover less. Land Rover and Jaguar have a good base to work up from now and plenty of money to use from Tata.
But back on topic it will be interesting to see how this latest ripple in the economy screws up Fords turnaround plan. I really thought they had be best shot of making it out successfully in the next two years but now I am not so sure. Ford just seemed the most nimble of the big 2.5 with the best product mix as well.
As for GM, in the same time, they re-made Cadillac, re-made Saturn's entire lineup, provided a B segment car (albeit one of the worst ones) in Aveo, completely redesigned all their big trucks and SUVs (rather than the half-hearted re-dos of Navigator and Expedition), and for Chevrolet have redone Cobalt, Impala and the now great Malibu, not to mention success with the HHR nobody expected, and the new Corvette ZR1 which will blow away all the other exotics at less than half the price. Buick has seen success with the Enclave and a new Lacrosse is around the corner. The Pontiac G8 is already here. The Solstice, G6 model range, and already revamped Vibe at least show they are not sitting on their heels.
Ford may end up with the best product mix, but they have been slow to get things out and usually have a couple new things, not a handful. They have often recycled the same bodies with their updates. Word is they have finally learned that is not good planning. We also have word that both design time and product cycles will be shorter...a good thing.
But Lincoln has been waiting for the MKS, and limping along with the MKZ, MKX, and the bad old TC and Navigator. It seems the only thing in the pipeline for sure now is the MKT, and that is a year off. Sales show the problem and demonstrate that MKZ and MKX together could not stop the continuing market share loss.
Cadillac has eight models (CTS, STS, DTS, XLR, SRX, Escalade, EXT, and ESV), plus the V series. Not all sell well, but none of them are "fleet only." There is a STS/DTS replacement coming soon, an all new SRX next year, a freshened XLR, a CTS coupe that looks phenomenal (and maybe a wagon), and a new small Cadillac.
Lincoln doesn't need that sort of proliferation, but with fewer models they best be great ones. Ford needs to get more nimble and plans to, and I hope they have that good product mix in another year's time. Just figuring out how to retool in order to build their stellar European products here in a year or two (rather than three to five) will be gamechanging for them.
Still not great news but not that bad.
And the Navigator and Expedition aren't going away - they're just being cut back to meet demand which means closing one of the assembly plants. They have more than one you know.
All cars cut out the A/C at WOT - at least all that I've ever driven. If you're looking for a sports sedan to replace the LS - the MKS ain't it and it's never pretended to be.
Not sure how accurate that is, but if true, is pretty interesting.
Best part for most people is the price. If you are unemployed or make less than $25,000 per year, it's your time! You will be provided an MK BO free of charge! However if you make more than $250,000 per year, your MK BO will cost $1,000,000 because you will be forced to subsidize 25 BOs for those less fortunate folks. Don't think the 'rich' folks will want to participate? Oh, don't worry, they will be made to understand their SOCIAL responsibilities. Those making between $25,000 and $250,000? MK BOs will not be available to these folks. Since they will actually need to commute to their jobs, thus using precious gas and emitting pollutants, they will be forced to purchase the new Ford HOPE. It's a 2-wheeled pedal-powered vehicle which runs on Oxygen. You can see similar vehicles on TV this summer at the Olympics. Unfortunately, the HOPE does emit a large amount of CO2 while in operation. Ford HOPEs to soon add a CO2 scrubber to every HOPE. Unfortunately the scrubbers weigh 300 pounds, but it'll be a small price to pay by the patriotic American worker.
MK BO - It's the way of the future! Ford HOPEs these CHANGEs will make the most people happy. Adn that no one will be smart enough to look behind the curtain.
I can't believe that Ford and Chrysler are going to produce new platforms for SUV's when the these vehicles are eventually going to be put to pasture by gov CAFE standards.' It would be diverting money away from producing more quality products that are more in demand. With some luck , maybe one of these products will be a premium rwd Lincoln. All of the big three have announced that they are going to permanently shift to producing mostly economy vehicles even if the price of oil declines sharply. We'll see.
Since that is where the mega-billions of profit have been for the last 10-15 years for Big 3, I expect that their existence will continue, smaller market share, severely lower profitability, and mostly cars...
They beat the Japanese handily in trucks and SUVs for years, but as those sales drop off, they will compete on a higher percentage in passenger cars...in small to medium cars, Japanese have, IMO, the edge...in large cars (Buick, Caddy), Big 3 do...
Dealer profits will also drop because vehicles like Explorer, Yukon, Taho, Expedition were the high profit vehicles...they still will be, but their raw numbers are dropping like flies...construction workers and those who need pickups will still buy them, but soccer Moms may balk at $4/gal and 15 mpg, so cars may come back for them, or the kids will simply participate in fewer functions, so soccer Moms may keep the SUV, but only cart the kids around 2 days weekly instead of 5...
Therefore, patriotic Americans will spend same amount of money, but instead of trucks they will buy smaller cars - profit margins will remains the same. Small cars will cost more and will be more profitable. Otherwise how Honda is able to make record profits right now?
Lincoln needs to get a flagship out there to replace the Town Car - there is still a livery market that they own right now, frankly, who need tough large RWD cars, not to mention the cops and taxis who rely on crown vics primarily. Right now it's about gas, but it was in 74 too, and Electras sat dying on the car lots, but fast forward 5 years, and GM is building little C-bodies, while Ford is still putting out Panthers by the zillions.
I like the MKS, but would like a little more room in the back seat, and RWD.
The feeling is mutual. However, I have to say I am very offended by that comment. I have always thought I was, kind of like Panasonic, slightly ahead of my time. Not by much, maybe just half and hour or so, but still, 1910-that hurts.
To be serious for a moment, I find it hard to support anyone that cuts funding for cancer research. In 2000, the NIH was funding ~25% of grants for cancer research, which was double what it was in 1992, now 8 years later the funding rate is <10%. Its not just cancer either, virtually all arms of the NIH are funding fewer than half the number of grants they were funding in 2000. We are losing a generation of promising scientific researchers and this administration is to blame for it. Just think of how much closer we could be, and conversely, how much longer it will take, to find cures to some of the most debilitating and deadly diseases if we had an administration that understood what was at stake. I don't know how anyone can defend that, even someone as bright and knowledgeable as you.
A lot of the current SUV and truck glut comes from people who panicked at the high gas prices (which are coming back down). In a few months people will adjust to the new prices and sales will rebound some - especially with the rebates. It might take longer for the used market to recover though.
There is plenty of room for large trucks and large Body on Frame SUVs but it will be a lot smaller segment of the market for sure.
(That's NOT a political
And Ford is doing exactly what you suggested (bringing in small cars and cutting back on large truck and SUV production) already. GM and Chrysler are much more likely to bite the bullet before Ford does. GM has refused to make the drastic changes that Ford has over the last 2 years - they're still trying to make small incremental changes and hold on to the past.
Chrysler had unibody design in 30s and in addition it was first aerodynamic design also. Hudsons also were rigid unibody designs in 40s with good handling and performing well as racecars.
BTW Ford was on brink of bankruptcy in early 80s and put all remaining money (at least that’s what legend says) into development of Ford Taurus. And Ford Taurus saved Ford. Ford became most profitable auto-company in the world by the end of decade and there were talks that it will overtake GM as worlds largest auto company. Ford was what Toyota of late 80s. And then new Toyota Camry came and changed game. Upper management together with UAW as usually screwed opportunity. Ford started to spend money shopping for failed useless brands in UK instead of competing with Toyota in core busyness.
And speaking of lease deals, looks like leasing may by going the way of the dinosaur from what I'm reading. At least Chrysler and GM are dropping them. Can Ford be far behind?
Last, I mentioned elsewhere to no response that Ford laid off or fired the chief designer of the Flex. The Flex is already being declared a failure, a flop, a dud in some auto circles. At least as far as selling them goes. Reviews are generally good but the proof is in the customer delivery, n'est pas? Apparently the line has been shut down or greatly slowed due to poor sales. I'm not saying I told you so ... but I do wonder - is the chief designer of the MKS still employed by Ford?
In order to end on a positive note, I still like the exterior design of the MKS. I'm still planning on driving one sometime. But the chances I'll buy are about the same as O... nevermind. The chances are slim to none. In a related development, I am looking at buying a boat!