Where Is Ford taking the Lincoln Motor Company?

akirby

I understand the personal preference for RWD, but these statements don't make sense to me:

You can't really feel much difference, the drive is excellent, torque steer is nearly non-existent

RWD is more desireable for superior handling

What good is superior handling if you can't feel the difference? Or are there clear differences that you just didn't enumerate?

carolinabob

I almost purchased a 2008 RL for $11,000 off back in April. Just couldn't quite see it. Very nice car, but somehow should be larger and offer more amenities for its price class.
Right now, I still prefer the MKS to other cars I have looked at. Hopefully, Lincoln will freshen it up a little for 2010. Interior looks a little too monochromatic for me.

nvbanker

Ok, ok, perhaps I sounded contradictory there. Let me put it another way.

Although the MKS is FWD, they have done an excellent job of mitigating the handling flaws of such a drive platform, such as torque steer, etc., to where they are nearly imperceptible. Still, however, RWD provides a superior handling and driving experience under aggressive driving, and is preferred by most luxury car owners. I wish it were RWD, personally.

akirby

Ok - that makes more sense. But I still question how many luxury car owners drive their vehicles aggressively enough where you would notice the difference.

[Deleted User]

It is akin to how much more $$ you will pay for stereo quality, even if at lower volumes the difference is mostly imperceptable to old ears. Or having six airbags, even though you may never use even one... It is what the luxury market often (not always) is about.

It often comes down to buying the best set of features that amount of money will buy. I doubt the majority of BMW owners fling their cars around much, but many want to know that their cars will outhandle competing models, even if their own driving skills are questionable.

akirby

I guess my point is whether a BMW 7 series owner would really care or even be able to tell the difference. If they knew the 750i had a transverse mounted twin turbo V6 w/AWD versus a longitudinal RWD V8 - would they care?

[Deleted User]

I suppose we could go to some 7 series forums and find out.

akirby

I'm sure the ones posting in a 7 series forum would say they care and probably do, but I was talking about the other 90%+. No easy way to confirm, just my suspicion.

[Deleted User]

You may be right. However, many BMW drivers are different animals from other luxury buyers. If you don't care about which wheels drive your car, you would be less likely to pay the BMW premium, I think. Many on the Lincoln forums are more concerned about smooth ride. I find it funny that many Lincoln owners find the MKS and MKZ suspensions too firm or "harsh." Floaty-boaty preferences rarely go with a demand for RWD or fine handling characteristics, because those who don't want their hemorrhoids jostled usually take corners at 5 mph with the brake on, and have no idea how much fun it can be to take their car on a safe but rousing drive.

akirby

I guess Lexus also caters to the soft ride crowd. You just have to decide which buyer you want to target and not worry about the other ones.

If the 5 series bmw owners really cared about performance they wouldn't be buying the 528i. I'm sure the V8 5 series buyers do though.

bigo08

I started this thread in 2006, Where do you think Ford is taking Lincoln now?

brucelinc

I think they are moving upmarket from where they were in 2006.

The Zephyr and MKZ started out on the really low end but the '10 models have more standard equipment and have many improvements - along with higher prices. The MKS started at around $38,000 MSRP but a '10 Ecoboost model starts at $48,000 and easily tops $55,000. They have made the technology package and paddle shifters standard on all MKSs so the base price is up. They expect 35% of buyers to go for the more expensive Ecoboost. I think that estimate might be low.

I think the "let's go after Buick" mentality is gone. I don't see Lincoln as viable in the high end class - Lexus LS, S-class Mercedes, etc. - yet. However, mid level soft luxury is a reasonable market for Lincoln.

nvbanker

I agree, Lincoln is coming back with at least a Low End Lexus goal for achievement. I drove Lincolns from 1 990 thru 2006 when I finally felt they still built a good car, but neglected the line so badly they had nothing left for me, and I went to Lexus. I still like to rent Lincolns when I travel, and my wife likes them, the MKS is somewhat tempting, but needs more motor and gawd, I wish they would get rid of the MK fetish! so stupid! bring back the Continental, Premier, Cosmopolitan & Mark PLEASE!

euphonium

Gee, I thought you were a lot younger than I.

marsha7

I have often wondered why carmakers do that, esp when they have built up a name that is readuly associated with their brand...

Acura Legend comes to mind for me, rather than RL...but Vigor was something they could throw away, IMO...

I remember the Continental Series, and then I think it was either called the Continental Mark IV, or the Lincoln Mark IV...

Hey, they never consulted me on UAW negotiations, so why start now???

nvbanker

Interesting how Honda still has an Accord, Toyota still has a Corolla, But someone decided Lincoln & Cadillac had to drop their brands for alphab et soup.

berri

I agree that alphabet monikers is generally a loser unless it is a cultural branding thing like for BMW.

However, I think the new Lincolns are basically still Ford's in fancy dress. The drivetrains are basically the same and the gussied up interior isn't all that different than a Ford top of the line model, but at thousands more in price.

bobgwtw

I agree. the 10 MKZ was high on my short list; but to get it equiped the way I wanted I had to buy packages that contained a lot of things I didn't want. That boosted the sticker to over $$40,000, and it's not a $40,000 car whe compared to others in the marketplace. The Ford SEL is essentially the same car, except for the 3.5 vs the 3.0, & a much better value at $11,000 less.

nvbanker

The Lincolns are still Fords underneath the skin. And therein lies the major weakness, but frankly, other than the Lincoln LS, they have always been platform shared. That's nothing new for Lincoln. The LS was platform shared as well, however, it went the reverse way, where the LS architecture was Jaguar derived, instead of Ford derived, so that made it quite the value - so much so that it was an unprofitable car at the Lincoln price point.

euphonium

when will an OHC V8 be available in the MKS? And w/o having to buy the "Ultimate" package to get it.

akirby

To be more correct, the Jag Stype and Lincoln LS were co-developed at the same time on a common platform, rather than one being derived from the other.

It doesn't make sense for Lincoln to have a unique platform until GRWD arrives. No need for multiple FWD/AWD platforms. It's coming, be patient.

akirby

You won't see an OHC V8 in the MKS. Very few V8s would fit transversely and even if it did fit, the EcoBoost 3.5L would put out more power and get better fuel mileage.

The 4.4L Volvo/Yamaha V8 only put out 315 hp versus 350+ for the 3.5L EB. And better fuel economy.

nvbanker

You know - I don't mind the Lincoln not having a V-8, although most of my cars in my stable currently do have V-8s, and I prefer them. I even owned 2 Continentals with the venerable corporate 3.8L Essex V-6 in them, and was satisfied with their performance. Not so much anymore however.....I want a HOT ROD LINCOLN, if I'm going to go back. Maybe I am the only one, but I think a Lincoln should have some grit to it, and you can do that with a V8, a V-12 or a Turbo or Supercharger, I care not. Do it so that you get the best output and mileage and value, that would be most prudent, however, make the car GO please. I like the MKS, (I do NOT like the name however), but the anemic 3.5L engine doesn't work for me. If the EB delivers with torque steer, then I could be quite satisfied with the car, especially if they brought back the Continental name for the beast.

Lincolns can be platform shared, I'm fine with that. But their power train should be different from Ford in the output department. I would consider the MKT (which should be called either Navigator or Aviator) for my wife, if it had a motor in it......

In case anybody out there is listening...... ALAN!!

akirby

The MKS uses the 3.7L, not the 3.5L. It's hardly anemic, but it's not a tire burner either. With Direct Injection it would put out around 300 hp which would be a perfect base engine for the MKS.

The EB 3.5L OTOH puts out 350+ lb/ft from 1500 RPM or so - it's a torque monster and has more HP than any other recent Lincoln product I can remember. With minimal torque steer due to AWD.

nvbanker

Oh yeah, the 3.7L, I forgot, my bad. And you're right, it's "adequate". But I still think the Lincoln should have something to brag about, and more power than the Ford line makes sense to me, especially when it can be done with direct injection and turbos and still get good mileage.

Chrysler got a trunkload full of goodwill, sales and mileage out of the Hemi rebirth. Gas prices did not totally kill that momentum, as the Hemi is still a desired engine in a Chrysler/Jeep. A Hot Rod Lincoln would give them something to brag about again, and attach boomers to the past, as well as give them the much needed publicity they need.

If they have another idea, I'm all for it - just saying.....that's all.

brucelinc

Yes, the 3.7 is adequate but I don't think "adequate" is good enough. The MKS will be available with the twin-turbo 3.5 in July or August. It is AWD only and when you put your foot down, much of the power goes to the rear wheels. It shouldn't have torque-steer.

While the twin-turbo MKS may not be the absolute quickest car in its class due to its weight, it may well be the best combination of power and fuel economy. As akirby mentioned, it puts out big torque at low RPM. That bodes well for strong performance without so much engine noise and high RPM. I think it is just what the doctor ordered for a high-tech modern mid-luxury car.

akirby

A Hot Rod Lincoln would give them something to brag about again, and attach boomers to the past, as well as give them the much needed publicity they need.

So a 350 hp/350 lb/ft AWD MKS isn't a Hot Rod Lincoln? I'm confused as to what you're asking for, other than an all new RWD platform with a 6.2L V8?

euphonium

all new RWD platform with a 6.2L V8?

And why not? That would tap my investment income to purchase.

akirby

3 reasons.

$
$$
$$$

Mullaly already approved a new RWD platform for Lincoln, but it had to be put on the back burner due to the need for more fuel efficient small and midsize vehicles and a reduced market for expensive luxury vehicles.

In the meantime, the EcoBoost MKS is a pretty good step in the right direction.

As for the Taurus having the same drivetrain - I think that's more a case of Ford reaching higher than Lincoln reaching lower. I don't recall Ford having a sedan with more than 300 hp in the last 20 years.

lemko

Yeah, that and a bodystyle that mimics the classic 1961-65 Continental with suicide doors and all and I'm in!!!

euphonium

I also prefer that era of style when compared to what was issued since 1998 which is why we still drive our '94.

lemko

If you're talking about the Town Car, I know what you mean. That 1998 restyle was gruesome. Actually, of Town Cars of the 1990s, I prefer the 1995-97 style with the narrower headlamps.

nvbanker

So a 350 hp/350 lb/ft AWD MKS isn't a Hot Rod Lincoln? I'm confused as to what you're asking for, other than an all new RWD platform with a 6.2L V8?

No, that would do it. What I'm saying is, they don't have it yet, so I'm not tempted - yet. A new Town Car, with actual luxury like the 97 would be nice too, and it doesn't even need the 6.2L - the 300hp 4.6L would do.

lemko

Funny you should bring that up. I recently looked at a newer Town Car and it didn't seem any more luxurious than a Crown Victoria. It even had that very generic-looking black radio with one round knob and the four square holes on the edges. Sad.

nvbanker

Yes, the Town Car died in 1997, and the Fleet Car was born in 1998 - designed for livery service, and very good for same, but lacking the luxury that Lincoln used to be known for, abondoning personal luxury vehicles at that point. I am hoping they will bring them back - it wouldn't take that much, just a new luxury interior, to make the Town Car nice again. Sure, the architecture is out of date, but along with that comes tough as nails, police and taxi underpinnings that can go over curbs without breaking a sweat, and drop dead reliability, for a well depreciated price.

The MKS (HATE those names) isn't a bad offering from a luxury standpoint - it just needs more luxury in the platform and running gear to compete.

lemko

The MKS just doesn't do it for me. It looks too stubby and the lack of a V-8 most certainly kills the deal.

akirby

So you'd rather have a 315 hp V8 (that was the original engine to be sourced from Yamaha) instead of a 350 hp ecoboost 3.5L V6? How many production V8s make more than 350 hp and 350 lb/ft of torque?

berri

Besides a dumb name, the MKS unfortunately doesn't really look finshed. Its like its design is missing something. I'm not really sure why anyone will pay extra for a MKS over the soon to come new Taurus? Its not like Lincoln connotes any status or prestige these days.

nvbanker

Status aside, the interior is really nice in the MKS. The leather is high grade, the wood looks good, and the switchgear is smooth. It's very comfy, very large inside, and a great touring cruiser.......a lot like a Cadillac DTS with a 6 cylinder motor.

emrnibbles1

I just purchased an 09 Bentley Continental Flying Spur with continuous all wheel drive. If one wants to see what an interior should be in a car ,this is it. Also the performance is intoxicating. Man, this car is sweet. All those who have the income should encourage Lincoln to go decidedly upmarket instead of making glorified Fords. Lincoln's problem is is that it makes cars that just about any person could afford. In the 1930's a Lincoln KB with custom body work would retail from any where between 4500 and 7500 dollars. Bring back the snob appeal. Make Lincoln into a true prestige mark again. A mark that could be driven on any road in the world . From the German Autobahn and Italian Autostrata to an American interstate or back road. Show the world that Lincoln is a true world class mark again. One that could compete with the best of the world.

speculator

Rwd is dead for a Lincoln sedan as well as a Ford sedan. Ford cancelled the program! It was cancelled in January 09.If you don't believe me ask Ford's J Mays. Or google. Ford cancels rear wheel drive.

[Deleted User]

Well yes, and that is no longer news. However, I am old enough to know how fast time passes, and how much can change in just 10 years, for better or for worse. If Lincoln survives, you and I have no idea what end of the car will drive the top model in 2018..

speculator

Ford would never do what you are proposing. Lincoln doesn't have that kind of cache' with the market segment that the Bentley runs in. As you have written, Lincolns are mostly considered high priced Fords. ILincoln would have to produce a vehicle that the younger more affluent buyer would want. Right now the majority of those who are purchasing Lincolns are those who previously owned Lincolns. Those who are mostly in the age range of late 50's to mid 70's. Hardly the way to build a loyal customer base that would capture those in the age range of the late 20's to mid 70's. The type of client base that would be needed to feasibly produce a car as a Bentley .Lincoln would have to offer lower end premium to mid price premium and then exclusive priced vehicles. A first time Lincoln buyer purchases car that is about 40K and then gradually moves up in price range when purchasing another Lincoln. I don't believe that Lincoln really wants to market to that type of client base. My BMW dealership's client base is much younger that the client base of my LM dealership . Right now it would be difficult to get this client base to consider a Lincoln. I had an MKS parked in my BMW showroom for 3 months and had the floor monitored where the MKS was shown and only a few customers looked at it and none sat in it or inquired about it. By the way, that Bentley is really sweet as you have written

marsha7

unfair to compare Lincoln to a Bentley???...regardless of how much better thry ought to make their interiors, they cannot charge anything close to what nibbles paid for his Bentley...Lincoln still has to be mass market, whereas Bentley may sell in a year what Lincoln sells in a week...this is not a viable comparison, IMO...

euphonium

Agree!

Perhaps he is renting it via a lease.

speculator

Unfortunately , no one would purchase such a Lincoln- Bentley type if Ford were to build one. The reason is simple. It would still be considered a much higher priced Ford. There would be no exclusivity associated with it. Ford over the years shot itself in the foot by making Fords with a better interior and then slapping the Lincoln name plate on it. Maybe if Ford were to sell the brand to an investment consortium a Lincoln of a Bentley's or even a Bimmer's calibur could be produced. But it would be hard to get past it's still a Ford attitude on part of the market segment to which it would be aimed at. But it may be still possible with new owners who will invest in engineering and design combined with an aggressive marketing campaign.

lemko

...to see Lincoln Town Cars used as taxicabs these days, and why not? They are merely gussied-up Crown Vics anyway with virtually identical mechanicals. Lincoln won't be back until it is once again the highly-esteemed luxury car it was in the 1960s. When I think of a 1960s Lincoln, I think of the Kennedys and the captains of industry pictured driving them in the print ads of the time. When I think of a present-day Lincoln, I think of livery cars.

emrnibbles1

No I don't lease! I and I don't rent and I don't finace. I pay for everything with a check. That includes my cars. I don't purchase items that I can't afford.

speculator

I really believe that Ford would never produce a pure Lincoln. One that is not based on an underlying Ford platform. Lincoln is basically a niche brand. It doesn't compete with other brands across a broad spectrum of market segments. It's only interested in marketing to the traditional buy American car buyer. This will eventually lead to the brand's discontinuation. The traditional American only buyer is rapidly diminishing.

akirby

So I guess the Lincoln LS was just a figment of my imagination?