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Comments
As a starter, do you all have stability/traction control
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"blindmantoo?
Gee...good questions...I have VSC with mine but these are questions that TOYOTA should be asking itself. After all, they designed it. There's also the ECT unit and its software (including the "Intelligent" learning software, transaxle compensation code, engine computer, .....
My question is: Are they even looking at this problem or do they think we're a bunch of "whiners"?"
The reason I ask this question is that from experience in working w/ the world's largest cell phone manufacturers, they often miss the obvious. A few years back, I ran all aspects of subscriber equipment for Airtouch - everything from procurement to quality assurance, distribution, repair and refurbishment. We had to work w/ the manufacturers to help them debug new equipment - and often they wanted to release new equipment before it was ready for prime time. So my approach on the "spiking" issue is to try isolate the factors that could be common to those experiencing the problem. I bring up stability/traction control as a possible link, as many owners may not have it, and may or may not be experiencing the issue. Other possibilities include abnormally hot outside temperatures, etc. All of the cars have the engine & tranny, but some may be set up differently for CA emissions, if they have the stability control, etc.
if none of the owners with the issue had any prior idea of how an AT normally behaved, they might think all was well.
and because you can't build an accurate nor predictable model, it sure is disconcerting to the operator every time it happens.
i argued once in another forum that not only was a hesitation unsafe, the unpredictability of the hesitation made for a dangerous situation as the person's brain tried to reconcile the discrepant experience.
you made the point pretty clear.
You're over a decade late to the party. Adaptive learning automatic transmiisons have been a fact of life in all makes of passenger cars and light trucks sold in North America for at least that long. And they've worked quite well, thank you. All we know for certain about some of Toyota's brand new 6-sp automatics is that there are driveability issues related to engine speed spikes over and above the original snap ring issue for some owners. Since many owners with well over 4,000 miles on their 6-sp transmissions are having no problems at all, there is insufficient evidence to specifically indict "adaptive learning" programming, per se, as the root cause. Whether there are TCMs in the field with faulty programming that needs to be updated remains to be investigated by Toyota transmission control software engineers with more experience in such matters than presumptuous internet mavins.
After 500 miles of flight time, 160 Zeros in the first wave would have crashed off the coast of Oahu because snap rings weren't seated properly.
What was left would have been a spectacle of Zeros stalling and diving from uncontrollable propeller rpm spikes as the planes were trying to "learn" from their pilots.
WWII in the Pacific would have been over in 3 hours.
1,850 total miles on car now. I do not have vsc.
And to add,, it is 2 am now,, and I am posting about the problem so yes it's bothering me..
Please try some thing for us(that's for me).
Take yuor SE and do a few "full throttle" test in a row and see if the spiking is still there.
My SE V6(with VSC) has been flawless but I have been redlining it from about when it had 200 miles on it. I knew about the snap ring and spiking and wanted to ensure that if it was going to happen, that it happened now and not later. I have about 1000 miles on the car and it shifts alright in auto mode but it shifts GREAT in manual mode.
Let us if this tells you anything;
It may be the park lockout mechanism activating. Just a guess.
Don't you get a comparable loaner?
I drive a 2003 Mazda6 for a few reasons:
1. fun to drive
2. reliable (only 3 minor warranty issues in 3 years and 45k miles)
3. 4yr/50k bumper-to-bumper warranty with loaner car for all warranty repairs for as long as it takes to repair the car. so you are not paying for a car that is sitting in a garage while shelling out money for commuting to work. :shades:
by the way, I see that toyota has "copied" the styling lines of the Mazda6 for the 2007 camry.
Who is the leader. your guess is as good as mine
I am very certain that the ones that are working correctly are not doing what TMUSA described the adaptive transmission would do and I quote
"they actually try to adapt their shifting in both the immediate time-frame (quickness of shifts, downshifts, etc.), and to a much lesser extent in the long-term (through learning the driver's patterns and habits)."
"This is where some of this confusion arises for some of our owners, IMO, because they don't know how, and in what ways, the transmission systems are gauging and reacting to their inputs."
tmsusa, "2007 Toyota Camry Woes" #230, 7 Jun 2006 10:57 pm
http://www.baileycar.com/baileyblog.html
While there, check out the Picture of the week on the main index.
WS
You know, we really don't know for sure, do we?
The point that I was trying to make was that my transmission was problem free for 1000 miles so if someone else is free of problems at 1000 miles it is really not an indicator of future trouble free performance.
FWIW, I don't wish this type of problem on anyone.
Most assuredly a completely true statement.
Most Camry owners aren't having these problems, if other forums, widespread automotive surveys, and so on are any indication.
But this is a "Tell Us Your Woes" forum, not a Toyota "love in".
However, putting this forum's rhetorical criticisms aside for a moment, what is being discussed here is far from a pandemic.
A few people are having problems with their transmissions.
But there's also been a dearth of speculative negativity about TMUSA's integrity, Toyota's customer service, Terminal decline in Toyota's quality, Don't buy one, yada, yada, yada....!
No doubt those who express these opinions (and I see them as "opinions" and lttle else) feel their problems are worthy of such rhetoric, and I extend my sympathies to them--if they are indeed having problems.
In reality though, it seems many discussions like this one typically become the domain of relatively few individuals who hold court daily (and sometimes hourly) about the issue at hand.
Frustration can sometimes become all consuming, to the point where forums become a convenient opportunity to unload and do a little brand bashing on a personal level.
I see this phenomenon evolving here, and I point it out simply to advise everyone to put the issue in perspective.
I don't think we're on the verge of a cataclysmic Toyota meltdown here, so I suggest it might be wise to cut back on the "Curses on Toyota and all it stands for" comments and focus more on objectivity.
The first time this occurred it looked a lot like that, but it maybe lasted a bit longer, with a jerk at the end of the spike, so much that it chirped the front tires.
Later that day, the second or 3rd time it happened, the check engine light came on.
I can sense the problem as it starts so I let off the gas to avoid the spike.
However, in many situations, almost every time I start off from a stop, the car has problems with the shifting and judders, for a second or so, the feeling you get in a manual when you are letting up on the clutch and do not give it enough gas, which vibrates the whole car. There is no spike when this juddering occurs.
There is another symptom since this started, which seems to be a very abrupt shifting, but no RPM spike, where is is like the transmission goes straight from one gear to another without any smooth transition. It "clunks" into gear, and it jolts you in your seat.
I am not sure if this is the same as your problem. It may be something very simple, which is easily fixed. However, I have completely lost faith in my Camry, and I will be discussing this with the case manager who has been very responsive so far.
I dropped off my ailing car at Rice Toyota yesterday afternoon, which is 1 and 1/2 hrs away from my job, and the nice rental/loaner car lady was about to give me a Yaris, and as we talked I suppose she found some sympathy in my plight so she offered me an Avalon XLS instead. :shades:
Other makes' adaptive learning ATs most certainly are dupicating the same philosophy that Toyota's ATs were designed to. (It's the execution, not the philosophy, that's in question here.) The whole idea driving the move to adaptive learning originally was to tailor shift quality to the principle driver's style and then maintain that shift quality throughout the transmission's working life without the need for periodic band and internal clutch tension adjustments. Adaptive learning is neither new technology nor specific to Toyota transmissions. Toyota's previous automatics successfully employed adaptive learning for over a decade, too.
I respect your opinion, just as I would hope that you would respect the opinions of myself and others. I think that is what forums like this are all about. This particular forum deals with the 2007 Camry exclusively.
In my mind the bigger issue for Toyota is not so much the quality of the product as it is the quality of their response to problems with the product.
As an interesting sidebar, when I was at the dealership the other morning, discussing with them the problems that I was having with my vehicle, there were 6 vehicles brought in for service while I was there. All 6 of those vehicles were 2007 Camrys.
The dealership is not a large one, and I don't know why those vehicles were brought in for service. Frankly, I was somewhat surprised at what I witnessed.
The 2005 Camry LE that I owned previously was totally trouble free during the time that I owned it. Zero defects or warranty issues.
Of course anyone who reads this is free to draw their own conclusions.
To put your mind at ease, I do believe in respecting people's opinions, especially when they are based on rational thought, are constructive and add value to any discussion. I also believe baseless speculation, spiteful inferences, and contrived dissent being portrayed as opinion isn't opinion, it goes way beyond that.
Like I said, a few people are having transmission problems. This is the place to talk about them. It needn't be a platform for creative sophistry.
I'm preparing for a long cross county trip in my March built LE V6 and wondering what I will do if the failure occurs while out of town, dealing with an out of town dealer, etc. It currently has 1600 miles.
Is Toyota still offering car replacement for the snap ring problem. Or does this depend on the dealer and case by case situation? :confuse:
I don't think any of us have any control over that except to ignore and/or disregard postings we don't like or agree with. "Creative sophistry" is just human nature. One must remember that there are three sides to every story - yours, mine, and the truth.
The truth is that we really don't know how many suffer from transmission problems with their 2007 Camry's, as not everyone who has a problem is going to post about it here.
It is my right to post about the problems I am having with my Camry in this forum, just as it is your right to post a contrary view.
I don't question that one iota. I wish anyone beset with the transmission issue every success in getting it resolved. My post speaks only about those who go unusually far beyond the norm with unreasonable and unwarranted criticisms masquerading as opinions. I believe forums like this one tend to go that way, and I simply expressed a concern about it.
That said, you are quite right in saying "we really don't know how many suffer from transmission problems with their 2007 Camry's, as not everyone who has a problem is going to post about it here."
But don't overlook another statement which can be said to be equally correct: " Not everyone with their 2007 Camrys who doesn't have problems is going to post about it here."
I would even guess there are far and away more of the latter than the former.
Insofar as seeing six 07 Camrys in for service while you were in yourself, like you said, it's unknown why they were there. It could be assumed they were there for routine maintenance, but that's just more guessing. I don't think anything can, or should be implied one way or the other.
I spoke up because I believe there has to be some balance in discussions like this one, just to keep things in perspective. Hence the title of my original post.
Paragraph upon paragraph of salubrious pontification does nothing to ease the pain of those so afflicted with the disease of mediocrity thrust upon us by the purveyors of mechanical transportation devices.
No horns, but I have found myself looking in the mirror more often. This is a great discussion thread, and tmsusa appreciates and respects the opinions of all who have posted specific to the transmission issue. That will be behind us soon, and we will continue to focus on the quality of our customer handling and the quality of the dealership service experience. Comments from our customers here indicate that we can never take that as a given and that there is room for improvement, or Kaisening, in some specific cases.
Credit due: at least Toyota didn't go for a CVT which is an even more undesirable transmission option.
Uhh, actually...tell that to my Camry Hybrid with a CVT. Which, as far as I know, has not had any reported problems.
Transmissions are the one thing GM has always done well, so I'm coming into this with high expectations. In terms of performance, mine have been met with the Hybrid CVT. Time, of course will tell.
Best of luck to the folks with V6 tranny problems. I'm flinching some at various references to Toyota having big problems with the '07 Camry simply because I'm not convinced they are particularly widespread (for instance, a lot of dealers bring new cars that are about to be delivered into their service bays for prep, for all we know that could have been what was happening there), however, there is no denying that those experiencing them are seeing major problems. At least, unlike, say GM, you are dealing with a manufacturer that has a reputation of taking care of these sorts of problems, and I hope that is the case here.
Needless to say, it is once again at the dealership, but I had to call the Sales Manager, to get it in, without having to wait for an appointment.
Here's the issue: Towards the bottom of the brake pedal travel there is a very noticable "clunk" feel. It typically happens just before coming to a stop. It's very annoying as it happens every time you come to a stop.
I REALLY NEED YOUR HELP - if you are not feeling anything throughout the press of the brake pedal, please simply post a reply that you have no issue w/ it. You will know if it's there - you don't have to look for the problem or try to recreate it. Also, please post a simple I have the clunk reply if you do notice anything.
I realize that this isn't as serious as many of the issues in the woes section, but I would like to put it to bed. Personally I'd like to get it fixed even if it is "normal" - but I need some ammo and your replies are my ammo at this point. THANKS in advance.
But if I did, there's no way I would consider that 'normal' operations.
in general - i think you need to determine if the clunking is occuring when you first initiate brake pedal pressure, or nearing the end of the vehicle's stop.
i'm no brake expert - but, many vehicles (mine included - a honda odyssey, clunk once or twice when first getting on the brakes - i think because of the calipers and pads having a bit of wiggle room, and possibly i need to have some lubricant applied somewhere). i believe this is pretty typical of many many cars of different makes and models.
that written - you might be describing a clunk or thunk or something like a popping or grinding when comming near zero speed well after applying the brakes. that could be a suspension or brake issue which is more serious.
no one here can drive, feel nor hear your car.
you are pretty anxious about this. i understand your dealership is 25mi away. not convenient, but you need to get this behind you.
if it were me, this is what I'd do:
a). some googling: research the issue more.
b). a drive out to another dealership and ask their techs to look at it;
c). a test drive of another vehicle (same make/model) as was suggested to you. it should not be too late to do so.
d). eee gad - loyalty always to edmunds, i'd join some other active forums on some other sites dedicated to toyotas and ask there while doing (a) - (d) above.
the thing is, you've asked your question here and gotten little to no help from the readership - so either they are not experiencing the same as you - which is one point of data - but be careful - remember, the readership here is not necessary large N...
don't be conserned about asking for a test drive in another car - your dealership should accomodate you driving one of their loaners or test vehicles for comparison...if they don't - go out of your way to another dealership.
crazy as this sounds consider paying a local garage, or better an independant dealing with toyotas to do a cursory brake inspection for you for piece of mind...
with respect to "ammo": i think you mean gathering supporting information and not trying to trap the techs with "look here - see - told you so".
being calm and controlled, confident, informed and narrowing down the problem space for your tech...communicating that the issue has you concerned byt that you trust that you know they'll get to the root cause...that's a different story. that will get you further faster.
good luck.
If anybody else had your symptoms, they would have jumped on a response and said 'hey, me too'. No responses aren't ignoring you, just don't feel there is a need to necessarily indicate we don't have that problem.
I suspect something didn't quite get assembled right on your car, and would either get it back to the dealer to fix.....or if you need to do further diagnosis, have somebody pump the brake pedal while you crawl around and figure out where the sound is coming from.
if the transmission is not at root cause for this flair / RPM spike issue, and they replace the transmission, and there remains the same problem as before the swap out, is it the ECU/TCM hardware or software, the Accelerator Pedal Assembly, the Throttle Position Sensor / Assembly?
gosh, what is it?
swapping a transmission out to solve the problem is pretty drastic... one would think this could all be captured on an OBD-II interface with laptop for review by HQ.
either the transmission is NOT at root cause and they are merely swapping transmissions to appear to be fixing the problem, or it is at root cause and the design is poor, its got some bad parts in it from a supplier, or they've been putting them together poorly, or a combination of same... :sick:
in this case, its possible they aren't sure what's wrong. it is a new design right?
so short-term at least - i think if they replace someone's transmission and they still have an issue, they should just step up and take back the car. that would be quality and customer centric.
i mentioned before, you'd think they'd want the car to send directly to engineering so they could tear into it and determine why the transmissions were not working well with the rest of the system.
I have had an LE V6 for about a week now. It's up to about 350 miles (got it at 278 miles). It's Japanese built. Now, every morning, I start the car and the engine is cold. I pull out of my driveway and drive for about 100-200 feet to the entrance of my neighborhood. The get out of my neighborhood, I have to accelerate to about 40 mph fairly quickly after I turn left, because there is a sharp bend to the right. I have noted this about 3 times now, where around 35-40 miles, I see it spike from about 2000 rpm to about 2500 (this is a rough estimate). A spike no more than 1k rpm, probably 500-750. Now, after that, the rest of my drive is pretty normal. The shifts are normal for the rest of the drive.
I have been unable to observe this at any other time, since for my drive home, I have to drive out of the downtown area, so I am not accelerating very fast at all in the first few minutes of operation.
The spike would appear to be very quick, almost so fast it seems the needle just bounces up a little.
Now I have read most of the comments here, and it seems that replacing a transmission will do very little to change this situation. Is there a chance that this is just normal operation? I drove a 94 v6 camry before, but that car had a considerably smaller engine and less technology.
I have to re-iteratae that I observe no other anomalies other than this spike.
Edit: I am no expert when it comes to cars, but perhaps on this board, we are discussing 2 issues, one irregular spike issue and one "normal" spike issue. I have been doing research on other cars on google, and have noted that some other cars have had similar "cold start spike" issues. Here for example is a thread on a Nissan 3.5 SE (http://www.nissanclub.com/forums/2002-2006-nissan-altima-discussion-2-5-3-5/201- 167-3-5-se-cold-start-rpm-spike.html?mode=threaded#post2646677)
I'm sure there are those who experience what you do and it doesn't bother them.
On the other hand, there are those who experience the same thing and see it as a problem.
I'm willing to bet that's another possibility for a difference between normal and irregular spikes.
This is how the problem started on my Camry. I was spike free for the first 1000 miles or so, and I first noticed the RPM spike when the engine and transmission were cold. In my car, the RPM spikes became more pronounced and began happening at more frequent intervals as I drove the car more and added miles. Replacing the valve body in the transmission had no positive effect, and a subsequent transmission replacement did not fix the problem either. The new transmission does not spike as frequently or as dramatically as the old one but part of that may have to do with the fact that the battery was disconnected in my Camry during the transmission replacement and we all know that disconnecting the battery resets the computer (ECU) causing it to have to rebuild the adaptive portion of the stored tables that the computer uses to "learn your driving habits" as it has been described here.
He is contacting Toyota and getting back to me on Wed. As a side note, after driving the four banger, wow! Am I ever glad I got the V6. I immediately noticed "weird" tranny gyrations. It's amazing how much smoother my V6's tranny feels and how much more power the vehicle has. (On our second tank of gas we got 27 mpg w/ 20% of the driving rush hour stop & go. Why bother w/ the 4 cyl???).