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Comments
The cruise control is doing what it is supposed to do - maintain your desired speed!
You can't do it without shifting down going up a hill in 5th and neither can the cruise control.
At low rpm's (below 2500) in a 27% overdrive gear, the torque at the rear wheels is very low. You get a 400-500 rpm kick when the torque convertor unlocks but up a hill that is often not enough to maintain the desired set speed.
Try accelerating on level ground at 40 mph in 5th gear (1,500 rpm). The engine will lug and the transmission will shift down like it is supposed to.
Even 4th gear has a OD gear ratio.
The poor dealers. There are enough legitimate problems to deal with.
Black absorbs more heat, but it releases it faster than white.
You can do a better job of keeping the car from downshifting if you cancel the cruise control on upgrades and allow the car to slow down a bit. If you do this at highway speeds on typical interstate upgrades, the car will downshift into fourth but not third.
Just one little nit: the torque is applied on the drive wheels, which happen to be the front ones on this front-drive car.
I've gone up interstate hills set on cruise with 4 occupants and 4 sets of golf bags at 65-77 mph and never had it shift into 3rd, 4th yes. And I still got an indicated 32.1 mpg (1-2 mpg higher than actual).
I too got the old (Thats normal) routine. Anyone else out there having this problem. After months of fighting with toyota we are now going through arbitration. Its very sad to see a company like this produce a product like this and then not stand behind it. I assume this car is supposed to be smooth. Let me know. Thanks
marjoe11
your new vehicle's performance should be every thing your 2004 was (and your other camry - model year?) and much more and they know this.
rpm flaring and cruise control initiated gear hunting is indicative of two good engineering problems they're dishing out for you with this model - they should be paying you as you are their test subjects.
moving forward: maybe there needs to be a coordinated effort amongst the owners affected to bring fresh turnips to your local toyota dealership as a sign of your dissatisfaction with their product, service and support. just lay them up on the desk of the first service writer to approach you.
besides SHOUTING, you're extrapolating to sue the company. i'm merely suggesting a visual aid to make the point the consumer is a good deal more intellegent and deserving of support of the company that bets their business on product quality.
I don't know how the 2006 was, which is supposedly the same engine/tranny combo and reportedly doesn't have this problem, but it may be any number of changes which cause the 2007 problem. It could something consuming HP, like added weight, wind resistance, alternator or air conditioner pump drag, different tire resistance, etc. Only the Toyota engineers would really know (or be able to figure out) what the root cause of the problem is.
It does not take much of a "hill" on the interstate to cause this 'usability' problem to surface (at least in my LE-I4), even a gentle long rise will do it. Since I can avoid downshifts by driving gently without cruise, I don't believe it would take much tweaking with some software somewhere (assuming it's adjustable in the software), to make this better. Personally I'd rather have the cruise be not soo exacting, drop 2-3 mph on an upgrade, and stay locked in 5th gear......than the alternative that it is right now, where it will stay exactly on target speed, by radically downshifting. If I want to keep the speed up for some reason, could easily apply a little throttle with the gas pedal and trigger a downshift.
On the other hand, I'm sure there are folks who would consider the cruise speed dropping by 3 mph as a defect failure...and be happier with the way it is.
TMSUSA if you still exist.....How about coming out with a software tweak, making the cruise less exacting, if the owner requests it?
What RPM and speed was your 3rd gear experience????????
Maybe you are mistaking it for 4th gear.
I don't believe you can maintain a set speed up a hill (in 5th gear) by driving gently. You will have to let up on the go pedal (or the transmission will shift out of 5th) and then you will slow down and continue to slow until the crest of the hill.
Definitely dropping to third. Easy to see the differences when the torque converter unlocks, when it downshifts to 4th, and then in the situations when it deep downshifts to 3rd, where rpms will jump up easily to 4-5K range.
long ago in another forum, one of my first posts on the hesitation issue suggested (because some people experienced hesitation and others not) that there was a good possibility of slop or other non-linearity in either the accelerator pedal assembly/sensor or the throttle position assembly/sensor in the problem cars.
i suggested how that theory could be proved / disproved.
the fact that in the year and a half since that time some people have noted marked improvement in operability by re-positioning their foot on the pedal is enough evidence for this control systems engineer.
besides being a practicing EE in the controls field, i have a good background in human factors engineering. when people say their safety is impacted, i can understand why this is so. there is no reason to refute that.
the turnip suggestion is / was meant to be fallacious, just as the "this is normal" mantra is fallacious.
i used to own a toyota that was trouble free for almost a decade. i remember what toyota quality means.
there appears a legit problem here with the DBW implementations which spans numerous models. maybe it's software, maybe it's hardware, maybe its design, or parts quality control; who knows.
when some say it happens, and some say not, and some say it didn't exist and now it does, what can one conclude definitively?
shall we blame the driver? i think not.
we should take notice of this though and challenge a manufacturer rep's assertion it is per design.
if you are an engineer and you believe the assertion - that is your right to conclude so - i just don't want you designing my next vehicle.
End of my rope with this car.
Do you have a US made Camry?
3rd gear s/b about 4,400 rpm at 70 mph.
Vibration goes away, put two of the originals back on to begin figuring out which one(s) are bad.
And the torque generated by the I4 at 2000rpm is about 143 vs 146 at 2400 rpm, which is essentially the same. My 03 I4 would never come out of lockup or downshift when going up a hill at at 2000rpm, or 1800rpm, or 2400rpm, or 2800rpm. And the transmission does go to third - and frequently hunts up and down as the car overshoots and undershoots the set speed.
I'm really tired of people posting on this forum and making smartass remarks about those of us who have the issue, when they do NOT have the issue - or even an 07 I4 Camry. I am certainly open to helpful advice or questions that may help clarify exactly what a poster is descibing, but I don't like the statements that indicate we don't know how to drive or understand how a car operates.
Oh, still haven't heard from TMSUSA on the question asked a few days ago on this issue. HHMMMM! Wonder why???
It seems like the same old thing. Trying to get out of doing anymore work then they have to.
What I do in this situation is disengage the cruise and use my right foot to modulate the throttle, keeping the car out of 3rd gear. Yes, I slow down a little. I never thought of the situation as being abnormal.
Once on a much steeper grade at a slower speed (US 40 east of Uniontown, PA), the car did exhibit the hunting behavior - alternating between 3rd and 4th - but again, I simply disengaged the cruise.
I do think some (many?) people would find it objectionable when using cruise for the car to lose 2-3 mph (or more) on upgrades. Therefore, on a rather small 4-cylinder engine, the transmission will have to downshift one or more gears to maintain a constant speed.
Let's face it -- more gears means more shifting, especially for a smaller engine. Do we really want to return to the old 3-speeds (or 2-speed Powerglides) and lose the advantages of fuel efficiency and engine quietness?
OTOH, a 500-horsepower Hemi V8 in an unloaded Dodge Ram pickup probably doesn't have to downshift much going up a hill!
The engine is basically the same as the '03 I4.
The '03 4 speed automatic had a 4th gear ratio of 1.02 which is not even 1:1. The final drive was 2.74.
The '07 5 speed automatic has a 5th gear ratio of .703, a 4th gear ratio of .975, and a final drive of 3.391.
So with the same tire size, the '07 in 5th has 15% less effective torque than the '03 in 4th. The '07 in 4th has 18% more effective torque than the '03 in 4th.
But the '07 tire size increased over the '03 also I believe, which lowers the engine rpm at any given speed which lowers the effective torque also.
And the electronic controls have surely changed!!!
My trans. does not shift to 3rd in cruise and does not overshoot/undershoot the set speed. It works great!
On the tire size, the '02-'06 LE used 205/65R15 and the XLE used 215/60R16. Now, all but the SE use 215/60R16. The larger tire/wheel has only a slightly greater overall diameter than the smaller one.
As I said, I am a newcomer looking over all Toyota forums to see what people are talking about these days. I hope to trade in our 2K Avalon soon, and the Camry is one of two possibilities--another Avalon is an alternate. So far I have test driven both at least 5 times with different models each time. All seemed OK with no evidence of any of the reported hesitation or spiking. I have spoken with a number of people at work and in our social circle about their Camry experiences and none have ever complained about any of this.
All said and done I don't think there's much of a risk and will be making a deal within the next days on a Camry. Will try to keep current in this forum re my experiences.
you are probably aware a few people posting in the forums, perhaps avalon p+s had indicated no perceptable hesitation when they initially purchased their vehicle - and then they started experiencing it after a period of ownership.
perhaps they were not very sensitive to the issue during the test drive (we can be distracted by a salesman even when we aren't behind the wheel). for minor cases, i'm sure that explaination fits.
for more significant hesitation - there is an aspect of the intellegent transmission design that is supposidly mapping the driver's style which may be spooling up parameters in ECU / TCM memory as one drives. disconnecting the battery has been something attempted by some dealerships and owners to reset the learned parameters with mixed results.
my personal opinion, and i'm going out on a limb here: the vehicle would have to classify a driver pretty early, i.e. in the short-term... if not then switching drivers would be very problematic, and i cannot conceive of any engineer designing an adaptive transmission that didn't accomodate a driver switch which is likely on a day to day basis.
instead, since we've seen issues with placement of the driver's foot on the pedal, i suspect (anyone shoot me down) the issue may be as simple as slop in the mechanicals or sensing in the accelerator pedal or throttle position sensor. it may be an issue at initial purchase, or for those experiencing the problem later, an issue which develops over time with one of the assemblies... perhaps the "zero" calibration of the sensors becomes affected by slop / non-linearity, wear.
there was one poster who stiffened some aspect of the accelerator pedal assembly with good results initially, that degraded...
this is why ultimately, i believe it is both a mechanical/electrical issue with one of the assemblies coupled with the adaptive learning logic or some programming of the ECU/TCM.
i'm sorry to be winded here, but my aim is true. people are not imagining the problem, and some have the issue worse than others apparently.
my theory accomodates all the observations from those claiming great responsiveness and no problem, to those indicating an annoyance, to those questioning their safety in the vehicle.
i hope it helps you.
Your poll of co-workers and friends backs up my contention. In any case, to use Reagan's words, "trust, but verify." Test drive the heck out of the actual car you're going to purchase, BEFORE you plunk down your money.
(That Kentucky dealership refused to accept so much as a dime - amazing what with my California plates, 4:55 P.M. when I rolled in, and on a Friday. I couldn't have been treated more nicely had I been the dealership owner's kid.)
So far I haven't had the experiences being reported here in any of the test drives to date. Will probably do one or two more before deciding by the weekend.
As much as the general thread of this discussion is, basically, don't buy one, I don't think there's that big of a problem, certainly not widespread anyway, and risk of getting one with those type of problems is pretty slim.
I believe my chosen purchasing technique will rule out what little risk there there might be.
Ciao.
Anyway, the transmission has come in, we're now waiting on the transmission fluid to arrive, and then they'll replace it.
BTW, all of this took place right before I filed my Lemon Law papers, so that now has been put on hold. :lemon:
I’ll be posting my comments on doing a comparison test drive of multiple ’07 Camry I4 5ATs tomorrow.
They both have drive train losses.
Back to dealer on 18th and still there.
The service department has verified the squeaks but are having trouble finding and fixing. It sounds like a body panel is flexing.
Is anybody else having this problem?
How long should we wait before complaining to Toyota?
Since you seem to think this is over my head, you might take a look at my sign-on name - that might give you a tiny clue as to what I know about torque/horsepower comparisons. Nuff said...
What we're both talking about here is rather simple. Torque delivered to the drive wheels at a specific rpm. That is even what you said in the first line of your first reply (#865) to me on this subject. Changes to gear/diff ratios and the diameter of tires affect speed at at a given rpm, so, at 65mph we have 2000rpm on the '07 and 2400rpm on the '04 and the torque difference is only 3 ftlb. Where we '07 owners get hurt bad is the HP output at 65mph as the '04 is putting out 68 vs only 54 for the 07 - OUCH!!! Very steep curve and I just really noticed it - DUH!!
I'll still be posting on my comparo later today.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
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2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That is not correct. He is one person, the same person who has been posting in Camry discussions here for a number of months now.