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Comments
The most reliable information I have is that it is a software problem dealing with the new electric gas pedal.
can you provide any additional details on that particular point? it might help everyone who cares about the issue and is basically flying blind without hard data.
Listen, I agree with mesquite77's suggestions. Call our CEC and make sure you have a case opened. The number is 800-331-4331. Chances are there is absolutely nothing wrong with your Camry. I really don't know. But I've been driving your car lately and know that it is fairly easy to mistake "normal" operation of a sophisticated transmission with a feeling that something's wrong.
But perhaps something is wrong. Sounds like one of our folks says your car is running just as it should. We'll never know debating it here. If the car is fine, but you're still worried, I hope we can spend a little more time with you helping you understand how it operates. If there is a problem, we want to get it resolved. Toyota does care.
that was nice of them bastards
"Warning - if you buy this the car the transmission behaves differently than anything you have ever known."
wonder how many new camrys they would sell????????????
1. The transmission snap ring problem, affecting some early production 6 speed transmissions, which Toyota has acknowledged. Car looses 2 gears (3rd and 6th), and for practical purposes is non-driveable. The defect is a snap-ring installation problem, and has reportedly been corrected in the manufacturing process. Cars manufactured up thru May, may have this issue. There may still be inventory on dealers lot which have this problem. Fix is to replace the transmission.
2.) The transmission/engine spiking problem, affecting some 6 speed transmissions, which Toyota has acknowledged, but hasn't yet been able to find root cause of problem and fix. As car is accelerating and then shifts, the engine rpm speed spikes up 1-2K extra before dropping into the next gear. Existing resolution attempts to replace internal transmission valve bodies and/or the whole transmission, have not resolved the concern for owners who have experienced this problem.
3.) The Engine / Transmission hesitation problem, affecting some 4 and 6 cyl, which dealers have verified symptoms but Toyota has NOT acknowledged is happening, and no resolution. Car appears to not be able to figure out what gear it should be in, get into that gear, and then accelerate. Owners experiencing this problem are obviously concerned from a safety perspective, as well as driveability. No resolution.
4.) The Cruise Control problem, affecting some 4 cylinders, which dealers have verified symptoms but Toyota has NOT acknowledged is happening, and no resolution. Car appears to not have enough power/torque to be able to hold target speed in 5th gear thru interstate typical gentle upgrades, downshifting to 4th and at times dramatically to 3rd with high RPM's to maintain speed. Driving without the use of cruise control is smooth with few transmission downshifts. Owners experiencing this problem report driveability concerns. No resolution.
I think I've summarized all the broader based "woes" that have surfaced within the first 6 months. If I've overlooked something, or effected owners and/or Toyota's TMSUSA would like to chime in and add clarification ..... please do.
As a side note, my speedometer indicating 65mph is actually 63mph, previously cross checked with my portable GPS.
sounds like the 3K estimate is close enough to 2700 to suggest TC isn't locking up as you indicated.
I added a chart to my carspace (link upper left corner), which shows the suspected failure area for different transmission shift symptoms. There is a section for no up-shift 4->5, and one for no lockup.
I'd get your car back to the dealer, who I suspect with the proper diagnosis can resolve your problem.
The tests:
Test 1: CC set and maintaining 65mph on level road with acceleration from 65 to 69mph using 4 taps on CC lever.
Test 2: CC set and maintaining 65mph on level road transitioning to ½ mile of moderate upgrade.
Test 3: deceleration to 30mph, maintain for 5-10 seconds, attempt to acceleration to 45-50mph with moderate throttle action (not using cruise control.)
***Note: Test 1 & 2 - objective, test 3 - subjective. All vehicles at normal operating temp w/o AC operating. Each test performed on same area of roadway at 88-90 degrees. All vehicles US manufacture.
Tests 1 & 3 were performed at least three times on each vehicle while test two was performed only once on the new vehicles and twice on my vehicle due to my self-imposed restraint on putting less than 20 miles on the new vehicles.
My (PZEV) (2500 miles) Test 1 - performed 4 times, once vehicle accelerated the 4mph without coming out of lockup, two times vehicle came out of lockup to accelerate the 4mph, once vehicle came out of lockup and downshifted to 4th to accelerate the 4mph. Test 2 - Vehicle maintained 65mph before, during, and after upgrade without coming out of lockup or downshifting. Test 3 - performed 4 times, vehicle usually, but not always, seems to hesitate from 1-3 seconds with throttle application and then starts to accelerate, slowly at first, and then downshifts and then rapidly accelerates. (Sluggish throttle response)
New (PZEV) (10 miles) Test 1 - performed 3 times, each time vehicle accelerated the 4mph without coming out of lockup. Test 2 - Vehicle maintained 65mph before, during, and after upgrade without coming out of lockup or downshifting. Test 3 - performed 3 times, vehicle seems to hesitate about 1-2 seconds with throttle application and then responds, once downshifting - two times not, with smooth acceleration all three times. (Crisp throttle response)
New (ULEV) (15 miles) Test 1 - performed 3 times, each time vehicle accelerated the 4mph without coming out of lockup. Test 2 - Vehicle maintained 65mph before, during, and after upgrade without coming out of lockup or downshifting. Test 3 - performed 3 times, vehicle seems to hesitate about 1-3 seconds with throttle application and then responds, downshifting all three times, with initial slow acceleration changing to smooth acceleration. (Sluggish throttle response)
My comments: I was surprised at how crisp the throttle response was on the new test PZEV Camry and how sluggish it was on the ULEV. I would have expected the reverse as my PZEV model is horribly sluggish. The upgrade test was the only long hill in the local area within 10 miles of the dealer and was not a challenge, but it was the best I could do under the circumstances. I will admit that these tests are not exact, nor definitive, but I am satisfied that they show that my Camry has “the problem” to a greater degree than the other two cars, although they do exhibit it to varying degrees.
My conclusion: I believe that the throttle response on these cars is slow, even though the new PZEV was OK. I also believe that the transmission has a propensity to downshift far too quickly in many situations where it is not warranted. And finally, I am concerned with the variability in the engine/transmission control systems, which shows Toyota does not have a good grip on this technology at this time. There are many owners who are reporting good operation and there is a growing list of owners reporting this problem. I certainly hope a solution is being worked on and that we can put this issue behind us soon.
Decreases HP from 158->155HP, and Torque from 161->158 ft-lb.
You can tell which one you have, by looking at the exhaust manifold in the front of the engine, specifically the Air/Fuel Sensor. If the sensor is on the side of the downward pointing manifold, w/sensor out parallel to the ground, it is non-california. If it is up on the top (up by the head), pointing up vertically, it is the california PZEV.
********************
kiawah,
Nice job summarizing what's going on. You might add to the attempts to fix the RPM spiking problem that the S2 solenoid has also been changed in attempts to correct the problem - unsuccessfully. See post # 450 in this thread
Excellent post, excellent summary - thanks!
Adding what mesquite57 stated in post #912 rounds out the data nicely.
Rather than having TMSUSA, who seems to be a "sales/customer service" type responding to the "woes" forum, Toyota should allow a "technician/engineer type" to work with the posters here. I understand that an individual of that type would not be able to divulge all of the details surrounding a problem situation, but it would be extremely helpful to get a two-way dialogue going on some of these frustrating issues that could benefit all parties involved. There are some very intelligent and talented people on these forums. This is what the internet offers and it will happen sooner or later. Will Toyota be at the cutting edge or back in the pack?
They are only "woes", because they are lingering and haven't been resolved, in some cases appear to deny that they exist, and have an effect on large groups of people.
One of two scenarios play out over time.
1.) Toyota digs and investigates the problems, finds the root cause and fix it, owners are satisfied and tell others, product gets good reputation, sales increase, Toyota and Toyota investors are happy......or....
2.) Problems are denied and ignored, owners become dis-satisfied and tell others, sales cap or decrease, Toyota and investors are un-happy, competitors are happy.
Personally I'm very happy to go out of my way in a pro-active mode and recommend products that I see are quality products which I've had a good experience with. At the same time, I'm not at all bashful about giving guidance to stay away from products that aren't living up to their reputation.
Getting confirmation from a Toyota Technical focal point that they understand the problems, and have begun to investigate.......would be a good first step. I'm sure any of the members here would love to have a Toyota rep to come ride in their car and experience the problem first hand.
An update on my car. I have not experienced any hesitation or excessive downshifting for the past 3 days. I'm starting to believe that this could be a software bug within the ECM. If it were a mechanical problem then I would expect there to be more consistency with the hesitation.
Hopefully the information that we provide here on this forum will help Toyota isolate the problem.
Thanks again!
I have a Cruise Control problem, affecting my 4 cylinder, Toyota Camry. Dealers have verified symptoms with other owners,(this was found out from on-line forms) but Toyota has not acknowledged this problem. The car appears to not have enough power/torque to be able to hold target speed in 5th gear with cruise control on thru interstate driving. With a typical gentle upgrades, the engine downshifts to 4th and at times dramatically to 3rd with high RPM's, up to 5300 RPM to maintain speed. Driving without the use of cruise control is smooth with few transmission downshifts.
I have contacted the dealer where I bought my Toyota Camry and they told me then have not heard of this problem. I also called the Toyota 800 number and they also have heard of this problem. They also told me not to believe what you read on the internet forums.
By reading several on-line forums, I have found out many Toyota owners are having the same problem. The other owners have the same cruise control problem and they have not been able to have the problem fixed.
So my problem is, I know my Toyota has a problem, but the dealer and Toyota tell my they are not aware of this problem. What should I do.
Is the next step to contact the NHSTA and get a recall?
i thought laser cruise was extremely gratuitous. imagine if they included laser cruise in this vehicle...
please pass the Dramamine.
in this case, the situation / root cause probably spans a number of engineering departments and it is unlikely toyota would offer up one of their engineers to correspond with owners that have the issue.
it would be seemingly a great gesture, but probably this person would not even be in a position to do more than help qualify system behavior. no engineer in that capacity would be able to advise owners. think of the legal ramifications of doing so.
i highly doubt for example - the person would be allowed to explain how an owner should drive their new vehicle; tmsusa asserts that's something toyota might do for one or more of you with the issue but you don't really believe they'd do that do you?
if i had a vehicle with a bad case of hesitation, i'd be putting down the $120 for an OBD-II data capture device, i'd hook it to a laptop, i'd collect the manufacturer specific data for the drive-train and accelerator / throttle, and i'd offer it up to other readers of the forum for inspection.
i think doing this may collectively get you further faster.
i don't think toyota would want anyone posting objective data of drive-train hesitation.
think about it.
I don't know anything about an OBD-II data capture device, but can easily visualize how it could be used to capture numerous data records collectively from the data buses. I can mentally picture a resultant huge data table, showing potentially hundreds of sensor values.
Is there some program, that is then used to review and interrupt the data that is captured? Wouldn't this be looking for a needle in a haystack, and require someone who knew what the data was 'supposed' to be, to see which data was out of spec?
http://www.obd-2.com/
and specifically, here's the list of parameters which are manufacturer specific:
http://www.obd-2.com/toypida.htm
you capture vehicle speed, engine rpm, gear indication (several data points associated with gearing), accelerator pedal position (several data points associated with this), throttle body position sensor (several data poimts associated with this also), solenoid actuation, brake status (fill in the blank), etc etc while you drive, accelerating from 0 speed, slowing from speed to zero, cruising, etc.
you pull the data into an Excel spreadsheet, and you plot it.
Anyway, the transmission has come in, we're now waiting on the transmission fluid to arrive, and then they'll replace it.
BTW, all of this took place right before I filed my Lemon Law papers, so that now has been put on hold. "
I went through basically the same thing and the replacement transmission DID NOT fix my RPM spike problem.
Toyota Corporate treated me like I was the scum of the earth and it was my local Toyota dealer who saved the day and gave me a 100% refund on my POS :lemon: 07 Camry towards another Toyota. So now I'm driving a Highlander Hybrid. This Highlander will be my last Toyota.
I hope that you have better luck than I did. I'm totally soured on Toyota as an automotive brand, even after owning several Toyota's previously. In my opinion their vehicles are no better than those made by any of the rest of the auto manufacturers and the perception of Toyota's supposedly better quality, better reliability, and better customer service are just not correct anymore.
It is obvious to me that the Toyota vehicles of today are not designed and manufactured as well as those of a few years ago, and their "customer service" is very much in need of an upgrade.
So my advice to anyone considering a Toyota is "Buyer Beware"
Yep - not to mention much more likely to be taken seriously, too...
The hybrid as a multilevel trunk, link a sunken living room and the clubs won't fit in that, and if you lay them across the top the only thing supporting the one end are the heads of the clubs that stick out (not a good idea). The hybrid also had this dumb preformed plastice storage box inserted there to further complicate matters.