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Comments
What month was your car manufactured (drivers door jamb), and when did you buy the car?
Uh, not quite. They have satisfied 7 or so out of the 10 or so people that posted on this thread who had the TSB performed. And we have yet to know how the long term results will be for those 7, so I wouldn't jump the gun just yet with this "fix".
I wouldn't make the general statement that this fix "has satisfied nearly all who complained" for quite awhile, or until more info comes out. Do you have access to all the owners who complained about this issue nation-wide?
Obviously, this problem is more wide-spread among the Camrys than several here would care to admit, based off of the press release and TSB. There's no way Toyota is going to go to these lengths for just a handful of people on Edmunds. They are clearly hearing it from scores of owners and are obviously concerned.
look at what you just wrote. Of course they don't have the 4 cylinder tranny problem....you just said yourself that all but one bought the V6.
This is a very flawed argument.
Fact: today's sales are based off of past reliability records. Since most of these tranny problems have been popping up in the latest models (Highlander, Avalon, Rav4 - just this year, and Camry - just this year), it will still take some time for the problems to catch up to toyota, if they go unchecked. It's not going to be an overnight thing, but it will affect future sales if changes aren't made soon.
Just ask hyundai. No matter how reliable the current offerings may be, people still judge them based off of their early offerings. Their sales numbers are not what they could be based off of past perception.
Up until this point, I would never even look at another make of car when I was in the market. Sadly, that is no longer the case and I fear that unless these quality issues are dealt with, I will be forced to look elsewhere.
I post here because when the '07 Camrys came out, I instantly fell in love and knew it was the car I wanted to replace the Corolla. I have since rented one and test drove a few others. All have exhibited the hesitation, and numerous squeaks and rattles. I cannot tolerate this any more.....simple as that.
So I can say without hesitation that I too draw conclusions based on REAL world ownership.
Toyota has issued service bulletins for software upgrades for Camrys on the road; those built since early October have been upgraded, Automotive News reports.
it makes one wonder.
I've checked the yahoo forums and saw several v6 07 owners complain (more vociferously than in this forum) about this hesitation.
So why has Toyota not released a patch for v6? maybe fewer people have complained. Maybe because the a larger portion of the v6 drivers will be a hair more 'spirited' in their driving, the computer learns to stay in a more responsive mode - just a hair-brained guess mind you...
Great car, teething pains I hope, though several post aledge this problem exist in other models and have for a few years now.
Is this an uncommon problem in other brands?
Just a bad joke of course.
I wonder why this fix has not been applied to the Avalons which have had this problem going back to March 2005, and why not the V6 Camrys?
Comments TMSUSA?
seriously doubt that fewer preople have complained, they already had sold 150000 Avalons and who knows how many RAVs and Highlanders, before the Camry was even out. The 5 speed hesitation issues seem to center on what can occur on heavy reapplication of throttle after coastdown to lower speeds. The Avalon, Highlander, RAV4, and Camry I4 all seem to report similar problems and would seem logical that it is most bothersome in the power challenged Camry. The 6 speed has reported some delays in between gears during acceleration (so called 'spiking') sounding more like an actual transmission problem as opposed to a software problem. Wondering whether the recent TSB for the Camry 5 speed would 'work' for the 5 speeds in the other products, whether it is simply a 'reset', the problem to reappear, and whatever implications all this has on this like FE.
And no this is NOT unique to Toyotas - by a long shot
The jury is still out on whether the TSB actually fixes the problem, or whether the improvement in performance is temporary and as a result of the reset.
Solution seems obvious - dispense with this "learning" logic and have a consistent and predictable shift map like they used to. I never complained about my old 4 speed Toyota transmissions on our older Avalon, Sienna and Camry - they were all perfect. These learning transmissions are an answer to a question nobody asked, and obviously something that nobody wants.
BO019-06 CENTER CONSOLE DOOR INOPERATIVE
PD108-06 SMART KEY SYSTEM CHECK DURING PDS
PD004-06 2007 MY CAMRY PRE-DELIVERY SERVICE (PDS) (REVISED)
PD004-06 2007 MY CAMRY PRE-DELIVERY SERVICE (PDS) Checklist (REVISED)
Yes and no. As the owner (and only driver) of an '03 Sonata V6, I've noted that if I PUNCH the accelerator pedal hard to the floorboard, there'll be a noticeable time lag before the transmission decides to downshift. (sound familiar?
(Would I buy another Hyundai? Probably not - which is one reason I participate on this, as well as the Accord discussions. But, I don't regret my purely cost-influenced decision, either.)
That said, however - it is some of this technology that has transformed my Avalon (and I'm sure the new Camry V6) into something that it has never been before - a powerful and fun car to drive that also happens to get rather phenomenal FE.
I'm following this forum largely because the host has 'killed' the Avalon forums, and trying to get some info on whether it might be possible to have my cake and eat it too.
I have a sneaking suspicion that it may not be. In the meanwhile, I have adjusted my driving style accordingly and do not find the behavior objectionable enough that I would compromise any of those 3 things listed above that I do like about the car so much.
I wouldn't make the general statement that this fix "has satisfied nearly all who complained" for quite awhile, or until more info comes out. Do you have access to all the owners who complained about this issue nation-wide?
Obviously, this problem is more wide-spread among the Camrys than several here would care to admit, based off of the press release and TSB. There's no way Toyota is going to go to these lengths for just a handful of people on Edmunds. They are clearly hearing it from scores of owners and are obviously concerned."
Really beantown? Are you serious about talking about this again? As I've said, I'm just reporting back what has been said thus far about TSB EG056-06 and it has been quite successful whether you like it or not. Yes, some owners didn't notice problems until a few thousand miles of ownership, but some did. And until they post otherwise, being honest and repeating what they say is the fact. I've haven't claimed this TSB nor this car to be perfect. No car ever will be.
So, as an 07 Camry I4 5A owner who had this TSB performed last week because of ALL the positive feedback (though, I didn't notice any problems), I can admit that the tranny is even smoother than it was and still no hesitation. So, As an OWNER, I'll tell you and anyone that this TSB has been very successful thus far.
As for your Hylander's hesitation problem. Why don't you keep talking about it in the hylander threads with other Hylander owners and maybe something will be done as well. Afterall, this is a Camry forum.
This is where I have a big problem with the "learning transmission" argument here. I also have a 1994 Dodge Grand Caravan ES with a "learning" electronically-controlled 4-speed automatic transmission, and I've never had to teach "myself" how to drive this vehicle. Both my wife and I regularly drive the van, and we've never experienced any drivability anomalies with this transmission. Learning transmissions are not new technology per se; Toyota's implementation yes, but the basic conceptual design - no.
Personally, I don't think it's so much of a Toyota "learning transmission" problem, rather a real problem with the firmware for the drive-by-wire throttle. Hence, the reflashing TSB.
For the RX series they started using that technique, for sure, with the 2001 model year, possibly earlier. While the use of this technique would undoubtedly be beneficial to FE, I have come to quite firmly believe that it is being used, predominantly, to alleviate instances of loss of directional control due to engine compression braking should the roadbed happen to be somewhat slippery.
Ford Motor Company has just been granted a patent which appears to impinge, be important, in this regard. The patent involves the use of a technique whereby a hybrid vehicle's regenerative braking effort is significantly reduced if the prevailing OAT hovers near or below freezing.
Within the same patent a technique is described wherein regenerative braking is disabled the instance ABS activates.
If regenerative braking, already lowered due to OAT, can still interfere with ABS activation, how can anyone say that ICE compression braking would not, most especially with FWD? Not saying this to denigrate FWD especially, but the fact of the matter is that ABS is much more important at the front wheels since the front brakes do provide ~70-80 of the braking HP.
So IMMHO Toyota and Lexus are "hobbled" by the EPA and CARB with regards the FE improvement, and most likely the automotive insurance industry with regards the improved safety of FWD or front biased AWD via use of the lift-throttle coastdown upshift technique.
Within the PR news of the new Ford Edge, also a FWD or front biased AWD SUV, there is a note indicating it is equipped with a variable displacement ATF pump to improve efficiency.
In the past the greatest "challenge" for the ATF pump was to provide enough pressure/flow for quick and firm upshifting during acceleration. Big DEAL. The engine is always at a fairly high RPM during "these" upshifts.
Now that Toyota and Lexus have adopted this lift-throttle upshifting technique the transaxle will often need to preform two shift sequences in quick succession.
Example: The driver lifts the accelerator pedal fully just long enough for the transaxle to begin an upshift. The engine RPM quickly drops to idle but now the driver re-applies pressure, a significant level of pressure, to the accelerator pedal.
Since the ATF pump capacity with the engine at idle cannot provide enough pressure/flow the DBW system has been adopted (RX350) so the onset of engine torque could be delayed until enough pressure/flow is provided.
Rather than increase the FIXED pumping capacity of the ATF pump and suffer the horrible loss of transaxle efficiency thereby, Ford has chosen to use a variable displacement pump. HIGH volume during shift sequences and low volume, or maybe even zero volume at times.
My guess is that we will not see a final fix for the delay/hesitation symptom until Toyota and Lexus adopt a like or simuliar. ATF pressure/flow "make-up" technique.
I was reading an old 2002 copy of a Car and Driver road test of a Lexus IS300 and LS430 and they mentioned this hesitation in both vehicles, so I don't think this affects only Toyota's FWD vehicles. Is it really intentionally implemented to avoid FWD compression braking or for some other reason?
The ABS control firmware "watches" the rate at which each individual wheel is slowing due to braking and if one, two, or all slow faster than a target rate based on initial entry speed, vehicle weight, etc, the wheel(s) with impending lockup has/have the brake released momentarily. All this is happening hundreds of times per second so the relatively slow shifting transaxle would have had to be in neutral as soon as the brakes were applied.
If the transaxle could be shifted into neutral in as short a moment as the ABS' electric solenoid can release brake pressure then yes, your idea would work.
There are really two desparate times, instances, wherein upshifting will occur that might result in the need for a following quick downshift.
The first and foremost of those we have all encountered virtually forever, or for at least as long as automatic transmissions have been around. That is when it is the driver's actual intent to entry cruising mode, simple drive along at the currently attained speed. Now think about how few times you do that and then suddenly, quickly, change your mind and decide you wish to accelerate, quickly, no less.
Rare, yes, but those do occur.
Prior to the adoption of this lift-throttle upshifting technique I am quite confident that most if not all automatic transmissions, on FULL lift-throttle, would remain in the currently selected gear ratio. In the past FULL lift-throttle would almost always indicate a desire to coast down to a lower speed and most of us, for all that time, considered the resulting engine compression braking to be an asset, if we even considered, thought about it, at all.
What has happened is that these new transaxles quickly upshift on any lift-throttle situation. So if you intent was for only a momentary coastdown then now when you re-apply the gas you will oftentimes encounter the delay/hesitation.
Give us back our clutch pedal seems to be the only obvious solution.
Test drive a BMW X3 and "FEEL" the STRONG engine compression braking effect at 60 MPH in FULL lift-throttle.
Why couldn't toyota use the DBW system to match engine RPM to current gear ratio/roadspeed upon FULL lift-throttle and thereby eliminate engine compression braking?
Adverse effect on FE so probably not.
Then again look how rare these instances seem to be, FULL lift-throttle coastdowns vs partial lift-throttle for entering cruising mode. If nothing else this technique could be used for the first few hundred milliseconds of FULL lift-throttle, thereby delaying the transaxle upshift, in case a quick return to acceleration is indicated.
But then how would drivers react to the resulting engine RPM "flare" during FULL lift-throttle events?
Worrisome.
startled and said "for this model?". He had not realized the 07 Camry had the problem. Then he said that he believed the car took about 800-1000 kilometres( this is Canada, so divide by 1.6, or 500-600 miles)to learn the driver's style, and he suggested that instead of the gentle break-in I have begun that I drive as aggressively as I normally would so the car doesnt think it has a wimp at the wheel.
I did that for the rest of the day - much more fun. No hesitation so far.
Also, this wouldnt apply to most of this forum's readers but he added that many people with automatic transmissions never use the gearbox and have no idea how much more responsive the car can be.
He drives the V6. I rather wish I did.
Hope this info may be useful.
now then driving it agressively may help short-term learning by classifying you in a such a manner as to counter-act a suspected lean condition on quick throttle application - and perhaps mitigate the hesitation, but that would mean you'd be contradicting the whole effort to improve FE with the smart programming.
but - if your vehicle is more responsive, till they get the programming refined, maybe you've got a workable solution.
i'd wager people with the problem would gladly toss the extra MPG or two to have a responsive vehicle.
i highly doubt people with ATs are gonna embrace using the shifter. i think that's a bad idea for most folks but if it works for you... you don't know if it may have transmission longevity consequences though.
interestingly the manufacturer and some dealer reps seem to have been advising drivers to take it easy on the accelerator. you're service manager's advise and your observation is a bit contrary to the tide.
it therefore may be very helpful to others. let us know how it goes.
Those of you who have other subjects - and vehicles - on your mind, please find or create an appropriate discussion.
Thanks!
This TSB will not apply to VIN #s effective as noted below:
TMMK Line 1 - 4T1BE46K#7U080051
TMMK Line 2 - 4T1BE46K#7U599506
Japan - JTNBE46K#973061622
Toyota makes Camry fix
Toyota Camry sales haven't been hesitating, but Camry powertrains have, says Automotive News. A raft of consumer complaints and negative postings on Internet chat rooms such as Edmunds.com forced Toyota engineers to find out why 2007 Camry engines tend to bog down at critical moments. After all, it's not good for the best-selling car in America to lose power when it's needed most.
According to one dealer service technician, the new Camry has a drive-by-wire system that "learns" driver behaviors. If an owner drives placidly, the software that controls the four-cylinder engine and five-speed automatic transmission is not ready for a sudden change in behavior. That includes flooring the gas pedal to get out of a dangerous situation.
So rather than responding to an abrupt need for more power, the engines and transmissions have tended to hesitate, according to postings on the Internet. Toyota has issued a technical-service bulletin outlining a software modification that can be done at dealerships, spokesman John Hanson said.
"We tuned the engine for an increase in horsepower," he said. "We should have done it for driveability to match everyone's taste."
Of the software, Hanson said: "You can tailor it for how you want it. For people who have no problem with it, there's no problem." Dealers make the modification only if owners report a problem.
The issue hasn't dented sales for the redesigned Camry, which hit dealerships in March and has been in short supply.
Sales of the Camry in September were up 3.9 percent over the same month last year. The Camry's U.S. and Japanese manufacturing plants are at full capacity.
Toyota made a running assembly-line change, and vehicles built since early October have the modified software. Toyota says it doesn't know how many vehicles are out there with the old software.
"We tuned the engine for an increase in HP,..."
Either a typo or PURE BS....!!
Substitute "FE" for "HP" in the above quote and you have a reasonable statement assuming it is simply a typo.
On the other hand tuning the engine for HP would result in a QUICK downshift to put more useable HP derived torque to the wheels when the driver indicates the need.
I suspect this whole announcement by Toyota is just another smoke screen so as to lower the level of publicity the relatively few who are having the delay/hesitation problem are currently getting.
And please keep in mind that any "learning" of driver style "unique" aspects will get erased each and every time you restart the engine.
I have little doubt that a firmware change COULD be made to alleviate this engine/transaxle delay/hesitation issue but it would involve removing or the firmware's embedded tendancy to upshift the transaxle upon each and every FULL lift-throttle event.
Personally I would rewrite the firmware to provide a brief, 2-3 second, delay before upshifting in this circumstance.
But since that would undoubtedly adversely affect FE it would need to pass muster with the EPA and CARB, even going all the way back to at least MY2000, even before DBW.
And we still can't say that the automotive insurance companies have not "mandated" a fix for the potential for loss of control due to engine compression braking when the roadbed is slippery.
That latter issue being one that the Ford patent very obviously is addressing in a way unique to hybrids.
But then I also wonder if doing the reflash ONLY for the relatively few reporting this problem isn't a way to bypass both the regulatory and insurance industry restrictions.
I hope we can here from others who have had there trans replaced?
Either a typo or PURE BS....!!"
That's fine, you don't have to believe it or anything anyone tells you. But, considering many including myself have seen the benefits from this ECM recalibration, the reality of it is, it has 'fixed' what many were complaining about. As for the few who are still not satisfied. Though unfortunate, there could be numerous other reasons for their continued dissatisfaction.
Interesting thought, but I'd surmise that the lack of a full recall or other "service campaign" on this issue came to a matter of dollars and cents. Per the posting above yours:
"Toyota says it doesn't know how many vehicles are out there with the old software."
Toyota doesn't want to admit that they have likely well over 100,000 cars out there with the old software, a very expensive camapign. A little quick math will tell you that between April 1 and October 1, approximately 180,000 Camrys were produced. If 60% of these cars are 4 cyl automatic, 108,000 cars are running around with the old software. Let's take a conservative shop rate of $80/hr x 1.5 hr x 108,000 cars = $12,960,000. A 13 million dollar campaign for a fix that hasn't been proven long term. It's cheaper to have a few compaliners come to them for a reflash and hope that it works long term, plus allows them to continue tweaking the flash programming.
Logically it would seem that there is more to it than a simple 'reprogramming', perhaps along the lines of what wwest suggests - a recertification/reclassificiation of all the cars so 'repaired' in terms of EPA FE and emissions ratings, and possibly even some sort of modifications in the computer's learning curves.
Yes, captain2, you and wwest have started to make the connection. Look back at the TSB - and you'll find a number of references to emissions, the EPA, and CARB. The reason this TSB took so long to arrive was the EPA and CARB re-qualification Toyota had to go through before they could release it to their dealers. The calibration ID is assigned and approved by the EPA. And if any owners who had the TSB performed (all should) did not get an Authorized Modifications Label affixed to their vehicle. the car is actually in non-compliance with EPA requirements until stickered properly.
As one of the very early reporters (complainers -
Thanks, Chuck
with 4 cyl engine with 5 speed automatic transmission.
On 30th June 2006, my BIN Number is 4T1BE46K77U040987,
Some times hesitate to take off at corner or at stop sign.
It doest happen all the time.
Do you think I have transmission problem ?
Thanks
jsleesi34
That said, I'm going to continue to sit on the sidelines and hope a broader cross section of experiences may provide more realistic pictures of the real world experiences.
Thanks.
But it still doesn't drive as smoothly as the 2003. So my question to all of you who have had the fix is: have you sacrificed power for smoothness? I'm not sure I'd want to do that...my wife envies the extra kick the new car has compared to hers.
Thanks in advance,
Rob from AZ