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Comments
I have been doing a bit of research pertaining to my 07 Camry 2.4 VViT/5 speed auto. More specifically, its inherit hesitation and unpredictable acceleration. I have had the TSB performed on my vehicle to no avail. It seems rather apparent to me that there is a wider spread issue here than Toyota will acknowledge. I can go to any of several Camry forums and find posts with very similar, if not identical issues to mine.
Today, I almost lost my life due to this hesitation that I have complained about to the dealer and the regional representative. They both claim the car is driving normal. I have left the car at the dealer on several occasions, and of course, they are unable to duplicate the problem.
I am not as worried about the hesitation (though I want it fixed) as I am the unpredictable nature of the hesitation. By that I mean, sometimes the car will go like I would expect a little 4 banger to, and other times, under the same conditions, fall flat on its face. Personally, I view this as a safety hazard.
So, getting to the point here, what can be done to get Toyota’s attention on this issue? Here is what I propose: If you own a 07 Camry with the 2.4 VViT with a 5 speed auto, and you are experiencing hesitation issues that are unresolved by Toyota, and you can foresee a possible safety issue due to this, take the time to report it to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA). You may do so by one of the following methods:
• By Phone: 1-888-327-4236
• Via the Web: http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/
It is the job of the NHTSA to document and look into these issues. They can make Toyota take notice, but it will take some effort on the part of us as the affect owners of these vehicles. Please take the time to do this. Thank you!
I intend to contact NHTSA and file a petition for investigation into this matter soon.
NHTSA needs to hear from everyone who is having this problem. It is, without doubt, a safety hazard and must be resolved BEFORE injury or death occurs. I value my and my family's life as I am sure all of you do as well.
Again, I implore all of you; please take the time to do this. It only takes about 10 minutes to do.
Toyota just has more homework to do, plain and simple. Not all of Toyota's engineers are rocket-science qualified. The engine sludging problem that plauged their V6's in the late 90's happened to coincide with Toyota obtaining low emissions certifications. Many auto industry observers claim that they did it by increasing internal engine temperatures, to burn hotter and cleaner-- with the unintended side effect of reduced oil life. This was of course denied by Toyota, but eventually changes were made to increase internal lubrication, and the problems stopped. Toyota never owned up to the problem, but blamed affected owners instead. Ref:
Center for Auto Safety
There was another Canadian owner near Thunder Bay who tried to have a dealership out there perform the TSB, but didn't have access to it. This was last week, so...
IMPO, I doubt that any manufacturer that attempts to build a car that supposedly can 'learn and adapt' to a particular driver or driving style will not be making some sacrifices in terms of the traditional definitions of drivability. That technology is just not 'there' yet. Why has Toyota taken so long in addressing the problem? Perhaps because they don't really understand the monster that they (and several other mfgrs.)are creating! As I have said several times - it will get worse before it gets better...
Aside from the ones causing woes in this forum, most manufacturers' implementations of the technology haven't been notable for causing driveability issues. And they are computer controlled for the same reasons that Toyota's are-- to improve performance and fuel economy. I think any qualified powertrain engineer would find it amusing that hesitation, poor driveability and unpredictable throttle response should be considered a valid design tradeoff.
Finally, it has been pointed out many times in the course of this discussion that there was an extensive recall campaign (as well as 100K mile warranty extension) on the problematic Honda transmissions you refer to-- not merely a poorly disseminated TSB. Sure, it involved thousands of units. And according to the press, the recall (costing $153 million) was instituted by Honda after finding 10 failed transmissions, not after months of user complaints. If that isn't acknowledging a problem, what is??
Noticed how few stick shift FWD and/or front biased AWD cars are in production today versus RWD and/or rear torque biased AWD stick shifts?
The industry has finally come around to recognizing the poor design aspects of FWD insofar as handling dynamics on a low traction surface is concerned and is taking positive action to reduce the accident level from those design flaws.
Read the Ford patent.
Would you intentionally downshift a FWD vehicle if you KNEW the roadbed to be slippery? With a stick shift wouldn't you INSTANTLY release the clutch at lift-throttle on a slippery roadbed?
Toyota is doing nothing more or less than providing for your safety, your very LIFE, by instantly upshifting your transaxle upon a lift-throttle event.
Next time you car shop either buy a stick shift or a RWD/rear torque biased AWD vehicle.
Meantime take a test drive in the BMW X3 and FEEL the abundance of engine compression braking upon lift-throttle at any speed.
That said, what motor and transmission are you thinking about? Those with the I4 5A who complained and had the new TSB applied have been extremely pleased except for two. And the V6 transmissions are now being built by a different vendor (source: Toyota South). But again, as you have noticed, it seems that newer owners have fewer complaints. And yes, Toyota has sold nearly 300,000 new Camrys already, so problematic cars do seem to be in the minority.
I believe the 6 cylinder has both the shifting and flaring woes behind it, as long as your purchase is a new build......and not a car that has been sitting on the lot.
Not true - read some road tests or reviews on about anything out of Germany esp VW/Audi and MB, the new 6 speed on the Ford Five Hundred, the 4 speeds on the Subarus etc. If you discount the vehicles made primarily by 'Detroit' that are still using engine/tranny combos dating back to the Model 'T', I am guessing that this kind of technology is creating more and more drivability issues as it becomes more widely used - as our erstwhile government has decided that 'computer controlled' cars MUST BE good - a knee jerk reaction to SUV rollovers. And it is not that the Honda tranny is not electronic, it is how it is not as heavily programmed into the car's overall functions, effecting the drivability. Honda and Nissan, in particular, haven't yet gone nearly as far as Toyota has so, therefore, their trannies tend to be more transparent. Which is good. alan s' comment about keeping it simple is right on.
While I disagree with wwest's endless rants about inherent problems with all FWD cars, the transaxle upshifts he is talking about and the time delay required to downshift on reapplication of throttle is exactly what is happening on our Toyotas. His claim is basically that this is designed in to eliminate the effects of this 'dangerous' engine braking, my contention is that is there to improve FE and minimize the effects of torque steer. Either way I suppose you have a 'safer' albeit less drivable car.
But then I later stumbled across the Sierra Research white paper describing the same technique as being one of the techniques to be used to improve FE 9.8% fleetwide.
So, okay, its for FE.
Then I came across the Ford patent pertaining to their reducing regenerative braking in the FEH/MMH when the OAT is hovering around freezing in addition to disabling regenerative braking altogether during ABS activation.
To me that is quite clearly an acknowledgment that the industry is reacting to the problems inherent with engine compression braking, maybe even on ALL drive configurations.
But the fact is that for the moment the majority of the delay/hesitation complaints have concerned Toyota and Lexus FWD or front biased AWD vehicles.
And we all know that Toyota does tend to lead the field in technological developments/breakthroughs.
Safer but less driveable? Try and sell that to the folks who've said they're afraid to merge onto a busy highway in their new Camry.
Counting lines of code in the transmission control module may support your contention that it is more 'heavily programmed' in the Toyota; maybe not. In any case,the result is inferior operation, not technological advancement, and that's the bottom line.
The driveability problem is solveable and *will* be solved when Toyota sees it in their best interest to do so. Sales figures are breaking records in spite of the public complaints being aired; the government hasn't become involved, so why should Toyota bother changing anything? That's an interesting question for prospective buyers to ponder.
I can't help but think of the old days when on snow covered roads with a manual transmission when I could use light-moderate engine braking instead of the middle pedal and always had a clutch to disengage everything if I needed to. Maybe where we are heading is a governmental mandate prohibiting manual transmissions altogether - it is, after all, Big Brother's responsibility to protect me from my own insufficiencies!
Atleast those cars are not giving trouble while you drive and also not a life threat!!!
As far as technology degrading the driving experience this is already happening and indeed our Toyotas may be leading the charge. What I said was that it will get worse before it gets better. Kind of like going out and buying one of Mr. Gates' latest creations or waiting a while until he uncovers all his 'mistakes'.
Computer intervention in the way our cars drive is increasing and will even go further as the government has effectively required it (VSC/TRAC?ABS etc.) and the consumer that somewaht blindly demands it perhaps not understanding how invasive these systems can become.
I, for one, do not want a silly computer making driving decisions for me - but it is where we are all headed.
I agree with this statement, which is why I am now leaning towards an '07 Accord or Sonata for my next purchase instead of the Camry I really wanted earlier this year. People can say what they want about the current TSB, but I have no confidence that these tranny problems will be resolved any time soon (they haven't fixed them in any of the other affected models - and most who have had this TSB performed literally just had it done, so there's no way to know if it is really working for a few months IMO, since the original hesitation often took awhile to show up), not to mention the fact that this Camry seems to be yet another "squeak and rattle trap" that appears to be showing up more and more in toyota's fleet (my prior generation Rav4 drove me insane). I'd rather go with the last year of a model's design than be someone's guinea pig and live at the dealership service area.
I'm not a "toyota basher" by any means. On the contrary, I was as loyal a follower as anyone could be (3 new toyotas purchased in the last 10 years for me and wife w/o even glancing at the competition). These woes, however, are just too much for me and I have to look elsewhere.
I am in the same boat as you and just cant make up my mind if it would be safe to go with the camry LE-5AT at this point. I have been following this forum for quite sometime now and it seemed to me that since the new TSB has come out lesser people seem to be complaining about the auto-tranny problem and hesitation. But still I do read posts ranting about inconsistent shifts & hesitation and bad mileage.
Here is the thing, If you read about the honda Accord on carspace, the number of posts are far fewer than Camry 2007 and there are people who crib about the acccord too (I guess its not like the accord does not have problems). Does it mean that people are happier with their accords and don't have any posts to write or is it that far fewer people buy the accord in comparison too the camry 2007.
I guess what I would like to know from the experts on this forum is, how grave is the problem with the auto-tranny and hesitation, meaning is it something that can never be fully solved if you have the problem or is it just a matter of time before we would have a solution from Toyota on this issue. Coz I certainly would not like to buy a car that has an inherent problem with no scope of solution other than getting used to the way car drives. I AM PAYING A LOT OF MONEY FOR A NEW CAR & WOULD LIKE IT TO RESPOND TO MY STYLE OF DRIVING AND NOT VICE-VERSA.
I read about someone mentioning that the Accord 4cyl MT is a very sporty car and I totally concur with that. The only issue being the current model is 3-4 year old design now and Honda is coming out with the new accord in 2008, so I don't see buying the 2007 accord as a very smart buying decision specially when I know by late next year we would have an upgraded accord available with a lot of new features.
Do you think it would just make sense to wait a whole year and see if the accord 2008 would be a better buy than the new camry?
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Hi Auto-Experts,
1. I did appreciate if someone would point me to the comprehensive list of TSB's that have been used to fix the hesitation and gear-shift issues and let me know which is the most recent TSB that seems to have fixed the issues (or is it more like a hit & trial fix that might work for someone and not for others).
2. I spoke with 3 different dealers about the hesitation and gear-shift problem in the 2007 camry. Only 1 of the dealership guy agreed, that of all the cars he had sold only 1 guy had come back with some hesitation issues. All the other guys I have spoken to say that they have sold quite a few camrys and no one has reported of any issues like that. Do you think I should believe these guys? If its a 1/2 cases in every 100 cars sold then I guess I did be willing to put my luck to test, but if this is much more wide spread than what the sales rep claim, then I guess I did be better off just buying the 2007 accord and driving tension free.
3. Has the accord always been known to have a better gear-box and gear-shift mechanism than the camry or is it just the new 2007 camry which seems to be a lot worse than its predecessors.
4. I did appreciate if some car expert could explain/clarify, whether the current hesitation and gear-shift problem in 2007 camry is something that can be resolved and is only superficial, something that could be fixed with an upgraded TSB
OR
is it something that is much more inherent (the problem can be fixed only with the redesign of the tranny) in the new engine designed by Toyota, since I would hate to put my money in a bug ridden car with a lot cool new features but a rotten engine.
Guys your inputs shall mean a lot to me, so please do respond soon with candid answers.
Thanx
Garry
and secondly: (and somewhat contradictory) mass production is mass production and defects or problems that appear in one car will logically appear in them all at least until that problem is fixed. In the case of the tranny operation, I would suggest that this characteristic MUST exist on all Camrys, it simply bothers some folks and not others and does have something to do with exactly how you drive the car.
In any case, I recommend a good healthy test drive - allow the car to coast down from highway speeds to maybe 5-10 mph and then hit the accelerator hard - and make your own decision...
What you suggested, a test drive, is what I exactly have done a few times now.
I realized when I test driving the 2007 Camry LE-5AT, that is a car lacking power (158 BHP, but then it is a just a family sedan) and obv lacked pick up if you hit the accelerator all of a sudden, it is is not responsive immediately.
But I have really never felt the gear shift issue in any of test drives. This being my first car, I am a little more sensitive to what people are experiencing, since I feel that they might be better at noticing not-so-obvious issues with a car than me. I have done a lot of driving and like driving, but never been too critical about how the car is driving since I usually just rented cars till now. But now since I am buying a new one myself I feel that I need to be aware of any issues with the car that I buy, so that I dont feel bad about making a wrong decision.
And that's why I like this forum, a lot of you here have owed and driven around the 2007 camry & could share your experiences with people who are still deciding on whether it is safe to go ahead and buy this car or not !!
I have been goign between whether I shouold just go for a 2007 Accord (old 2003 engine design, with hardly any new features since then) & not have to worry about any of these issues
OR
go with all new Camry 2007 (with all its new cool features like, audio jack, mp3 player, tire monitoring system, power driver seat, nice colors etc.) and not so reliable transmission about which people have been posting on this forum.
I like the 2007 camry, but I am just not sure if I want to play the chance game of whether I shall get a car with an updated TSB or a faulty transmission. I guess I am just trying to gather enough information so that I can make an informed decision.
Inputs appreciated.
Test-drive experience:
1. Camry is not a sporty & powerful car, takes time when you hit the gas pedal hard. It is a huge car for a 158BHP engine.
2. Have not experienced any gear-shift issue while test driving it. I have tried the 30-40 mph range where a lot people mention the car gets unsure which gear it needs to shift to. I have also braked to a complete stop without any dangerous gear [non-permissible content removed] surging the car forward in lower gears. Tell me guys if I am missing something here and if there is some steps I specifically need to follow to duplicate the gear-shift problem.
Thanx
Garry
The 'trick' duplicating the 'gear shift problem' seems to be getting the car in a condition that it is in 4th or 5th gear when it should really be in 1st or 2nd - next time you drive one, try what I suggested in my previous post - and I do mean 'hit the accelerator HARD'.
I read about someone mentioning that the Accord 4cyl MT is a very sporty car and I totally concur with that. The only issue being the current model is 3-4 year old design now and Honda is coming out with the new accord in 2008, so I don't see buying the 2007 accord as a very smart buying decision specially when I know by late next year we would have an upgraded accord available with a lot of new features.
As captain2 has noted several times above the trend of Toyota/Lexus/MB is toward more 'intelligent' systems in the vehicles that by necessity require an adjustment from the vehicle, the driver or both. Driving becomes a compromise of sorts. It's perfectly valid to not want to make these adjustments and for the present there are many options out there not requiring compromise. There are many vehicles still with mechanical linkages where simply pulling the throttle open is all that's done. It's how we've all learned to drive.
I'm seeing Toyota/Lexus/MB leading the technological wave as the most high profile, well-financed, global companies that have the resources to do this type of research and development. Honda is probably even better in the technical side but it still is a small manufacturer specializing in the US market. It is not as wealthy as Toyota so taking large risks is not wise. Nissan is a follower. GM/Ford are wounded and cannot innovate for now nor have they been interested in doing so for the last 20-30 yrs.
IMO Toyota is making a statement, and willing to take the heat and put its resources behind this statement, that it will develop the drive systems for the next 50 yrs.
Are there risks? I'm sure yes.
Are all the wrinkles ironed out? Obviously no.
Are they using the public as test subjects? Here I believe that the weight of evidence says NO. Most drivers ( middle of the road types ) have no idea what this hesitation brouhaha is all about. Yes it does drive differently but what delay there is goes away with time or it just was never there.
I have a lot of respect for Honda and its engineering knowhow so I'm certain that it sees the direction of the drivetrains of the future. It also sees the heat that Toyota is taking over these new computer controls so I'd expect the next iterations to be improvements over Toyota's initiatives. I'm equally as certain that Toyota will benefit from Honda's experience, etc, etc.
1. Intentional
or
2. Un-intentional jab on the gas pedal
Result: Car goes nowhere.
did I say that right?
btw, I do not own a Camry, however I am an IT professional and therefore interested in the technology behind this adaptive transmission and Toyota's implementation of that technology.
Buyers in this class do themselves a disservice if they also don't check out the Altima/Maxima.
Come on, my 94 dually Chevy crewcab with diesel had wireless gas pedal, all electronic with computer controls on the automatic transmission. Maybe Detroit has already figured things out and are now updating the trans to 5 and 6 sp. A little at a time instead of all at once and big headaches. :P
could you send me a link to your "previous post" as suggested by you in your reply to my post.
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The 'trick' duplicating the 'gear shift problem' seems to be getting the car in a condition that it is in 4th or 5th gear when it should really be in 1st or 2nd - next time you drive one, try what I suggested in my previous post - and I do mean 'hit the accelerator HARD'.
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Could you point me to the right post which has trick to duplicate the gear-shift problem.
Thanx
Regarding the performance since pickup, I think I am driving a different car. I only hope I can say this in the coming days, weeks, months, years. The change in performance, in the short time I have had with it, is nothing less than outstanding. It seems to have helped even with the cruise control, but will report on this later as I plan to take a short trip this weekend. The car upshifts and downshifts effortlessly and smoothly and have no spike in the rpm's when turning into a side street. Also when I turn into a sharp incline side street she downshifts without me having to fully depress the accelerator or manually downshift to 1st gear.
Like several others I have been reading the forum for months and after lots of agonizing bought the LE 4 cylinder which in every way appears to be the car I want. I have always driven a manual(40 years of driving)and much prefer them, but had to get an automatic after developing arthritis. I am not a mechanically inclined person so all the technical stuff here(transaxle upshifts...???)is over my head.
The car has 59 km so far ( yes,this is Canada)so my question is,are there things I can do to avoid the hesitation developing? That is, if it is learning how I drive in these critical first days, what,if anything. can I do to make it my servant, and not my master?
I believe in a gentle break-in, so dont want to be coasting the car down from highway speed and then hitting the accelerator for at least a couple of 1000 km; hence I have no idea if my car has the problem.
So far,by the way, I am totally in love with it and keep telling it how gorgeous it is.
I swear it smiles.
thanks.
Apparently most of these trannies have some sort of ability to 'learn' how you drive and somehow anticipate what IT thinks you are doing - which is why, I guess, that the 'hesitation' problem may be difficult to emulate on a test drive off the lot and may reappear even after reprogramming. Jury is still out, I gather, on the long term effectiveness of a reprogram. As far as servant and master goes, that would be a different issue!
My 05 Avalon, 5 speed can be coerced into hesitation but only under that condition I outlined earlier (higher speed coastdown, followed by flooring the accelerator). I have found that if I get into a habit of 'coaxing' a proper downshift during that coastdown with a slight punch of the accelerator, then the whole situation is avoided. Kind of the way you punch the accelerator to match engine speeds on a downshift with a manual trans. Love the car BTW although I never seen it smile
Not that it matters but mine was built in July, 2006 in Kentucky.
respectfully, this is your opinion - i'm sure others would think differently.
where's the weighty evidence you are referring to? all the people that aren't complaining?
factually, this has been and is a complaint against a number of Lexus and Toyota vehicles spanning years and a number of models. It didn't just occur with the re-designed Toyota Camry.
and yes, we aren't seeing reports from every owner, but certainly from a significant number of people driving different cars that suggests there is a legitimate need to keep working the design.
some owners have had no operability issues for thousands of miles, and then it occurs to them, which suggests to me there is still an issue with a part or parts in the overall design... i.e. it isn't soley software.
now, maybe toyota is trying to address the problem with a software patch. a controls engineering co-worker of mine once made the point you don't fix a hardware problem with software. maybe it doesn't apply, but then again, maybe it does.
obviously we are at a disadvantage not knowing exactly what is at root cause. the purchasing public is dealing with an implementation which is undergoing refinement.
so yes - they are "test subjects" in my book. you say no safety issue. i say definitely a safety issue.
we all get to call it as we see it.
'soley a software problem' is what Toyota has admitted to, to this point (Motorweek interview). Not that anybody needs to believe them. I think for all parties, those that do think it is a big problem or those that don't, we both could only wish it was a hardware issue, those at least more easily identified and corrected.
You, my friend, are a wise person!! I applaud you.
But then at least, TOYOTA MOTOR USA, should acknowledge and let the customer know the fact that they have some new technology in their cars and that perhaps is not perfect as yet but shall try to improve it as much as they can. To refute that all is well with their cars & the customers dont know how to drive or bull-crap like that is what ticks me off.
Yesterday based on 1 of the posts on this forum, I went to the NHTSA (www.nhtsa.dot.gov) and looked up on the 2007 camry and then compared it with # of complaints for eg with the Honda accord. There are just too many people unhappy with the Camry....and please dont tell me that some1 will go to such lenghts as log a complaint with NHTSA just coz he/she did not like some small thing with their car. They must have a very good reason to go all the way & lodge complaints in all these public safety forums.
I am a software guy & have studied AI and do understand how it works. Trust me it should learn from how the driver drives the car and not teach how the drive should drive the car ( that is the purpose of AI-uniquely understand how each individual person behaves for the same situation and then learn it & store it in its memory).
If only Toyota was more transparent about the new fixes that they are coming out with for the gear-shift & hesitation issues, it would be nice. Most of the dealers dont even believe that their are any TSB updates that they know of.
Again to reiterate, I am not against Toyota & I might potentially wanna buy the 2007 camry LE, but then unless I know what I am getting AND IF the company is willing to help me in case of a problem, why would I want to pay 20 grand for some technology that is just evolving.
Its just that I dont feel sure when buying a Camry, what kind of machinery should I be expecting. I actually am unsure if the TSB fix is something that is coming from Toyota Motors or is just some nice techie guy helping folks get their fixed and running. Could some1 comment on this.
Has some1 been perhaps keeping a track of if the percentage of people for whom the TSB fix has solved the problem.
I just realized this is a great reason to tell people, sorry, you cant try out my new car yet - I am training it!
Think about this...
When Toyota announced BA, Brake Assist, I immediately wondered:
"How do they do that?"
How does my RX300 know the difference between "regular" braking and "panic" braking? Upon examining the repair/shop manuals I could find no obvious way, sensor, other than the standard brake light microswitch, for the system to detect how hard or how fast I applied the brake pedal.
So I concluded that they must "watch" the rate at which I move my foot from the gas pedal to the brakes. Or since the accelerator pedal position sensor (or in the alternative the throttle position sensor) does exist they maybe even watch the RATE at which I lift my foot from the gas pedal in order to quickly move it to the brake pedal.
SIMPLE..
How does the system "know" when I wish to accelerate above the current speed? Obvious answer, right?
But how does it differentiate between the times I lift my foot from the accelerator to enter cruise "mode", simply maintain the current roadspeed vs wishing to coast down to a lower speed or even coast down to a stop.
So IMMHO the delay/hesitation has its origins in the "way", rate and/or amount of which you release pressure on the accelerator pedal as you go into lift-throttle mode.
It looks to me as if the firmware upshift algorithm has it correct about 99.99% of the time but that other 0.01% is doing something to confuse the engine/transaxle ECU control firmware.
"How do they do that?"
How does my RX300 know the difference between "regular" braking and "panic" braking? Upon examining the repair/shop manuals I could find no obvious way, sensor, other than the standard brake light microswitch, for the system to detect how hard or how fast I applied the brake pedal.
So I concluded that they must "watch" the rate at which I move my foot from the gas pedal to the brakes. Or since the accelerator pedal position sensor (or in the alternative the throttle position sensor) does exist they maybe even watch the RATE at which I lift my foot from the gas pedal in order to quickly move it to the brake pedal.
It was easy to find in my Camry service manual.
The Brake assist comes into play when the brake pedal is depressed quickly (emergency braking).
A internal slide valve in the power master cylinder is opened and gives additional hydraulic force to the brake cylinders.
So your suppositions and conclusions are incorrect.