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Toyota Camry Hybrid MPG-Real World Numbers



  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 9,403
    This discussion is for talking about real world mileage performance. I've moved the posts on the noises to the Toyota Camry Hybrid: Rattles, Bumps & Squeaks discussion.
  • clfrunclfrun Posts: 11
    Hello TCH Owners/Prospective Owners...

    I would like to list my MPG for info/input:

    Tank 1...36.96
    Tank 2...42.13
    Tank 3...39.88
    Tank 4...39.99

    There is no question I have modified my driving habits to get these MPG numbers. Some say I drive like an 'old man' now! I say I drive to reduce dependency on foreign oil, do more for the environment and reduce my costs.

    My driving on the Interstate is typically 65 on shorter trips and 70 on business trips. I drive the speed limit or within 5 MPH of the speed limit in most other areas.

    It is amazing how 'quickly' you become a MPG guage watcher, as others suggested would happen. My wife has not yet driven the car, but sure likes the mileage.

    Toyota finally sent my XM items and that is now installed. It is great to have three 'SAT' modes for storing your favorite channels. The navigation is simply outstanding, much better than I had in my VW Phaeton that I had prior to this car.
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Posts: 1,405
    OK, I used to drive an Expedition (14.4 mpg average) but when I traded it and my Infiniti FX for the TCH and a 4 Runner, the TCH became my daily drive and the 4 Runner our tow vehicle. My savings should be based on the EXPO because that's what we drove as the daily driver. HOWEVER to be conservative I'll compare it to the Infiniti milage so here is where I'm at.

    3.5 months of ownership, 9400 miles, I checked the difference in 38.7 mpg for the TCH and 16.3 for the Infiniti FX45 with the infiniti gas costing 15 cents minimum more, and the difference in gallons used is 333.8 gallons or $1087 SAVINGS in just 3.5 months!
    My payment went from $630/mo to $410/mo or another $220/month savings.

    I still have $2600 in Federal Tax Credits and $3750 in State tax Credits (over three years) coming to me.
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Posts: 1,405
    I'm still trying to solve the calculated milage vrs computer indicated milage on my TCH. I've seen as much as 3 mpg off of a low milage tank. Typically I'm about 1 mpg lower than the computer shows. Yesterday though my wife drove 420 miles and actual was 39.3 vrs indicated 39. Pretty close. It got me wondering.

    When I drive I have a lot of "gliding" minutes on my consumption screen. Is it possible that when the engine is idling and a FE of 60+ is showing that possibly the computer is not doing a very good job of measuring the flow rate????

    I know that with most measurements the meter has a range of accuracy within certain parameters of flow. Perhaps it does not do well with the 60+ readings? On my wife's trip she had only a few of these minutes at 60+ but was still getting overall good FE and the indicated was close to actual. When I drive I try to get the ICE off or at 60+ a lot and I'm usually off from the indicated.

  • flopshotflopshot Posts: 14
    Your observation is not abnormal. What most people have found is that the speedometer in the 07Camry is not calibrated correctly. Hence, the car is calculating a lot of things incorrectly, such as speed, mileage, and thus MPG. I think my speedo is about 3mph off at 65mpg, so I'm going to ask my dealer to recalibrate it.
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Posts: 1,405
    I'm not sure that would take care of my issue. If the speedo is off (and there are some old threads on that) then so is the odometer and I believe that the indicated and the actual would be off by the same relative amount. I still believe there is something in the measurement of the gas that causes this difference
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Posts: 1,405
    I think my speedo is about 3mph off at 65mpg, so I'm going to ask my dealer to recalibrate it.

    I think until the advent of GPS units everyone had speedo errors and were unaware of them. Now everyone is aware. I don't think they can actually recalibrate this error.
  • patflapatfla Posts: 14

    Think I'm now on my 3rd tank of gas.

    There are some numbers that haven't been adding up and I think I know now why.

    Cruising range. I think the manual says that the value here should be from an empty tank. I increasingly think that it's from where you filled from last. In my case, this is almost always 1/4 (or rather, more correctly considering the way Totyota has marked the major [blue] tick marks 13/16 [a true 3/4 would of course be 12/16]).

    Why do I think so? You (of course) reset the trip odometer each time you fill up. OK you drive for a while and let's say you eyeball the gas gauge and decide that you're spot on 1/2.

    You then add the trip odo reading to Cruising Range.

    For me, this comes out consistenly too low (and so the inferred mpg is low). 27, 28 mpg when in fact I've been getting around 34 (all short drives so far and I live in a very hilly area in the SF E Bay).

    On the other hand, if I scale the tank value (17.2) by 13./16., I get just about the corret number (high 33 mpg close to 34).

    Can anyone confirm this? Is this a bug? Etc.

    If this is the case, and it's supposed to be the case that Cruising Range assumes the full tank (17.2 g), then it might possibly just be a programming change to fix (I'm a programmer).

    Or it might be some kind of combination possibly of programming and sensor(s) (hardware).

  • wvgasguywvgasguy Posts: 1,405
    It's been well documented that there is 3 gallons left in the tank after you get to "E" and after the cruising range number reads "0". You'll have to take that into consideration.
  • patflapatfla Posts: 14
    Sorry (well-documented).

    Recalculated. Yes that would do it exactly. Dividing TripOdo+CrusingRange by not 17.2 but 14.2 gives another 33 mpg number. Close enough.

    And over time and with more measured tanks that will help further in convincing me of this number.

    Other claims of high 30s and low 40s have me a little disappointed with even 34.

    But then I chalk it up to at least 2 things: 1) only short trips so far (my commute is 8 miles one way) 2) I live in a very hilly part of the SF E Bay. You're never on a flat surface. And many of the hills, while short, are quite steep. Hills eat up mpg. You don't recover in kinetic energy what you just built up (climbing the hill) in potential energy. Friction, etc.
  • grggrg Posts: 15
    I live in colorado, east of the mountains, at around 4000 ft elevation. I am on my 3rd tank of gas and now, with less than 1/2 a tank left am getting 41.2 mpg. My first 2 tannks were 38 snf 39 mpg. I get a little bit better mileage intown than on the freeway, but it is closer than EPA says.
  • patflapatfla Posts: 14
    How long is your commute?

    And while the surface you live on (the western edge of the Great Plains is inclined) it's nevertheless flat (but sloping). Or at most, rolls slightly. Is this correct?
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Posts: 1,405
    Other claims of high 30s and low 40s have me a little disappointed with even 34.

    See the tips forum for suggestions. I'm averaging 38.9mpg but I do work at it. However even on my trip over the mountains in the eastern part of the state I was able to average 36.

    I live in a very hilly part of the SF E Bay

    I live in West Virginia. Believe me it's hilly. HOWEVER, I realize in a hilly section of a city you might not get the advantage of long grades up and down. My battery is charging much of the time when I'm climbing hills and when I do hit the flats I am able to glide with a full charge. I do get relief from trips where it's just rolling terrain and the TCH does real well on that.
  • I'm on my 4th tank. I'm learning to drive the TCH to maximize driving in EV mode and I am accelerating a slowly as traffic behind me will allow. I'm seeing tank averages over 38 mpg now. I run the AC almost always but in ECO mode.
  • grggrg Posts: 15
    my commute is 10 miles each way, slightly sloped down one way and slightly sloped up the other way...I do a lot of "pules and glide" and actually put it in neutral going down hills, sometimes
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Posts: 1,405
    I do a lot of "pules and glide" and actually put it in neutral going down hills, sometimes

    I hope you never are involved in an accident and have some lawyer find that comment.

    From an energy perspective coasting in neutral downhill, where the system would normally be charging the battery makes little sense. The cost to idle the ICE for that small distance can't be worth the loss of battery charge and the liability of operating your car in a dangerous mode. I don't find the drag on the level to be significant, but going downhill my TCH usually accelerates with my foot lifted from the throttle so the problems with drag on a downhill slope are not a factor, you're simply saving the cost of fuel for an idle engine.
  • I made the mistake of trusting the dealer to inflate my tires to 36psi as I had instructed them. They even checked it off on the service report. However one tire was 31.0 two were 32.5 and one was 33 !. Not only that, two of the tire valve stem caps were missing!!
    I checked the tires because we are about to take a long trip and I checked them cold and with an accurate digital tire guage. They are all 36.0 now.. Lesson learned here.
    Check them yourself when tires are cold !

  • wvgasguywvgasguy Posts: 1,405
    I made the mistake of trusting the dealer

    I had my front end aligned this past week. I expressed my disapointment to the dealer in that when I had my tires rotated at 5000 miles the tires were cupping and they didn't do anything, thus the tires now on the front are also cupped before I noticed. Fortunately they are not badly cupped and are not making noise or causing any shimmy.

    Moral: Don't trust the dealer to do things for you
  • agnostoagnosto Posts: 206
    Precisely, and that is why I bought a torque wrench, digital air pressure gauge and I choose to check/inflate/rotate the tires on my Toyotas myself ;) ... which reminds me that I need to rotate the tires on my 2006 Sienna.

    Hint: Always remember to unscrew the wheel lock nut first and screw it last when rotating your tires...
  • Folks do the math please. Hybrids run 4 to 5 thousand dollars more than normally aspirated counterparts, you aren't able to negotiate most of the time whereas you can buy a new Accord for invoice You will pay retail for the Hybrid an almost $8000 difference!

    Drive 10,000 miles @ $3 per gallon avg 25 mpg=$1200
    Drive 10,000 miles @ $3 per gallon avg 45 mpg=$666
    You save $534 with the hybrid
    Factor in the higher price you'll have to drive 149,800 miles to break even.Oh yeah and you'll need to replace the 4 batteries at least once @ $4000 a piece. Hybrids do not pay at all. Please people wake up!
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    You are obviously behind the times Max.

    See this article that originated from Edmunds: 08-22T212530Z_01_N22263287_RTRUKOC_0_US-AUTOS-HYBRIDS.xml

    The consumer-focused Web site said that assuming vehicles were driven 15,000 miles per year and gas was priced at $3 per gallon, owners of the Toyota Prius and Ford Motor Co.'s (F.N: Quote, Profile, Research) Escape Hybrid would break even within three years.

    Buyers of the Saturn Vue Green Line from General Motors Corp.(GM.N: Quote, Profile, Research), the Toyota Camry and the Civic Hybrid from Honda Motor Co.(7267.T: Quote, NEWS, Research) would break-even within six years, said.
  • How do you figure....the battery replacement cost weren't factored in. The Prius has no standard engine package and size and features it would be similar to a honda Fit @ $15000.
    Let's say the Escape get's 50mpg @15k/$3 per gal=$900
    @25 mpg=$1125 3 years you save $675.....How is that breaking even?

    Also your car insurance goes up as well so mathmaticaly speaking I am still right!
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    You are still not making the whole equation my friend....

    The TAX INCENTIVES are not taken into account in merely the fuel calculations.


    If the car insurance goes up in a Hybrid Escape over a V6 Escape it will not be much.

    PS. And so far, no one I know or have heard about has had to pay full price for ANY hybrid battery replacement, and with more than 600,000 hybrids on the road worldwide, there have been VERY VERY few replacements.

    None of which have been paid for in full by the car owner.
  • Read the owners manual....
    even with the whole $400 tax credit you can't break even
    Think of how much less trade in value will be with 120,000 miles and the original battery packs.
    Over 80K the batteries are the OWNER's responsibilty
    Your comp and collison avg 20% higher because of the cost of the battery packs and how easy it is to totsl the car in a frontal impact
  • PS the tax breaks are going away completely in 2 years and it was only the first 40000 registered this year
  • faldocfaldoc Posts: 84
    I used to think as you do.

    But I had an 07 V6 XLE Camry, and got 30 mpg. I sold it back to Toyota for tranny problems and bought a Hybrid for the same money, albeit with a little less lux (no interior faux wood, a bit slower, no sunroof, and a few other things). I am getting 40 mpg. There is the luxury of green driving, with 80% fewer emissions, and since I drive a lot (2500 miles a month) I will save $700 a year in gas and also get a $2300 savings in tax credits. It gets me to where I want to go in the same time and I can carry the same number of passengers, and it has the same look and feel as my old XLE with less acceleration. Of course, if you compare this car with a 4 cylinder XLE, the tax credit will be offset by the lower cost of the 4, but then the 4 is slower, and the mileage is not as good, and the pollution is worse. The battery issue is a concern to some extent, but they apparently last a long time.

    So, if you drive a lot, it is worth it as far as money is concerned, but if you don't it isn't. But if you care about reduced emissions and gas consumption then it might be even if it costs you more.

    Converted hybrid owner.
  • faldocfaldoc Posts: 84
    The credit does go away, but it is in effect for the full quarter after the first 60000 cars, and then at 50% for 2 quarters and 25% for the next 2 after that. For Toyota if you get your car by the end of September you get the full credit, even after the first 60000 cars.

    I think there will be some credits even after they go away because politics drives politicians to do more to encourage alternatives to the internal combustion engine.
  • agnostoagnosto Posts: 206
    If you like HONDAs (but not TCHs) then that is fine for you, but I will never ever, ever, ever, again deal with HONDAs from personal experience... tooooo many issues, but I have been owning new Toyotas for the last 16 years and amazingly never had issues the same level I experienced with HONDAs and cost me so much money in trade in...

    As an FYI, I am going to trade in my 2006 4Runner V8 LTD 4WD for (you guessed it right) a fully loaded beautiful 2007 Toyota Camry Blue Ribbon Metallic/Ash Leather and DID NOT/DO NOT/WILL NOT regret a bit and will save the environment from being over polluted... hope you get the point me and others tried to make, if not, no harm feelings.
  • tsytsy Posts: 1,551
    Hey, you just became a member today and these are your first posts. You must be really upset about something. Do you work for an oil company?

    It's not all about economics. There are various reasons we each have for buying a hybrid. Please do not assume we're all uneducated and can't do math.

    Folks, he doesn't know what he's talking about. Just ignore the troll and hopefully he'll go away.

  • kc_rustykc_rusty Posts: 32
    I have a white TCH with 1200 miles on the clock. Left my customers business in Lincoln NE and reset the instant read on the nav unit. Drove to Overland Park KS (total of 245 miles - 95% interstate) drove between 65 and 70 and did 45.5 mpg. It seems I can always beat the epa hyway rating but not the city. There were two of us with luggage and it was a very pleasant trip. My business associate has an '99 Accord and even he was impressed as he only can muster 26 mpg on the same trip. :) First half of the trip was basically flat and the second was rolling hills of missouri. He may even become an convert :shades:
  • umpire63umpire63 Posts: 19
    The last two tanks have been 37.9 and 39.8, respectively. I am finding I get much worse mileage in town (around 35 mpg) than on the highway (around 41 mpg). I'm going to have to learn how to drive in town.
  • primo2primo2 Posts: 31
    i have not been able to get better mpg in the city than on the highway...have been trying all the tricks...still getting around 37 in city and 42 on highway...which is good, since i do more highway than city driving
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    I think virtually everyone is getting better hwy than city mileage in the TCH.

    I'm not sure what that says about the 4th generation HSD system. Have they scaled back the EV mode scenarios so much to protect the longevity of the battery? Or is the 3300 pound TCH just too heavy for the battery to be used effectively at lower speeds?

    Very interesting development which provokes questions.....:D
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 9,403
    I deleted the last post here which directed personal comments at another user.

    These forums are not the place to fight out personal disagreements, or hurl insults.

    If you find yourself about to make such a post, please don't.
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Posts: 1,405
    OK Max, where do you get this stuff?

    even with the whole $400 tax credit you can't break even It's a $2600 TAX CREDIT

    Oh yeah and you'll need to replace the 4 batteries at least once $4000 a piece No reason to believe this or that they will be that expensive when and if a replacement is ever needed.

    Hybrids run 4 to 5 thousand dollars more than normally aspirated counterparts Past posts show a similarly equiped Camry is within spittin range of a TCH.

    Over 80K the batteries are the OWNER's responsibilty 100,000 or 150,000 depending on where you live

    Also your car insurance goes up as well ,Your comp and collison avg 20% higher Mine went down.
  • sibbaldsibbald Posts: 106
    I have a story that will probably fit in quite well at this point. I am a 2007 Hybrid owner with 5,700 km on a car I totally love. It has exceeded my expectations in mileage and I appreciate all of the extra's you do not get in the base model. Anyway, we have a couple of taxi companies who are using the Prius and have done so for several years now. The first ones have more that 250,000 km (150,000 miles) on them. The owner I talked to said that they are no longer purchasing the extended warranty because there has been zero problems with the hybrid technology, or the car. In fact, Toyota of Japan has just bought back two of the high mileage taxi cars from my area for an engineering study.

    This is so good, the owner who took a risk, purchased a Prius a few years ago, put a quarter of a million kilometers on it (without battery or other probems), just got a brand new Prius from Toyota as a trade for his old one. This is a true story in British Columbia Canada, I was told that Toyota purchased back a total of 10 cars with the other 8 coming from the Vancouver BC area.

    Cheers, Tom
  • I have 4000 km on my TCH and my inner city driving mpg is only 25-35 mpg, but I don't mind, because I am still saving 33% compared to my 1996 Avalon.

    I believe the payback issue needs an apples-to-apples comparison. I disliked the 4-cyl and would have bought an SE V6. Buying the Hybrid made me save $ 2,000 and I got dual-zone air conditionning, powered passenger seat, etc. The hybrid has already paid itself back. And I will get a $ 1,000 tax credit.
  • Been out traveling a great deal. That is an amazing amount of savings for that length of time, not to mention the tax savings that are upcoming. The VW Phaeton I owned was a true 'automobile' in every sense of the word and I can see why Automobile Magazine picked it over the MB S500 the year it made its debut. I have not calculated my savings, but the EPA was 22/16, so my savings over the first 3000 miles is mounting up, adding in the difference between premium and regular as you did.

    My latest tank I obtained the best MPG performance yet at 42.33 MPG. I think my coworkers miss the Phaeton to ride in, but I do not miss the stops at the gas station. On this tank I went 604 miles before refueling.
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Posts: 1,405
    I think my coworkers miss the Phaeton to ride in, but I do not miss the stops at the gas station

    I enjoyed demonstrating the FX45 on curvy roads and my friends thought I had lost it. However they realize I have a fondness for the "different" and am "cheap" so it's probably not a big surprise for them to see me in the hybrid and for me to start "downsizing" as I approach my retirement years.

    I thought I would miss the FX but so far I have not looked back.
  • Any chance that we could get back on the topic of "MPG-Real World Numbers" here?
  • My 4th fillup in the TCH had mileage of 40.6 mpg, calculated, with a running average of 40.5 mpg for the 2200 miles I have driven it.

    95% of my driving is on the highway at 65 to 70 mph.
  • "I enjoyed demonstrating the FX45 on curvy roads and my friends thought I had lost it. However they realize I have a fondness for the "different" and am "cheap" so it's probably not a big surprise for them to see me in the hybrid and for me to start "downsizing" as I approach my retirement years.

    I thought I would miss the FX but so far I have not looked back."

    I have a FX45 that I bought new in 2003 and it is approaching 60,000 miles - have had zero problems with it. I'm considering the TCH as a third car for commuting, errands and general around-town driving, but plan to keep the FX for towing my boat and other situations where I need the extra space.
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Posts: 1,405
    I'm considering the TCH as a third car for commuting, errands and general around-town driving, but plan to keep the FX for towing

    At the risk of offending some with an off topic comment, I went ahead and traded the FX because I couln't justify a third vehicle expense just to have the FX for "Sunday driving". I have an SUV for towing and winter weather and while the FX could have performed those functions, the 20 wide tires didn't lend themselves to good winter driving and as I really didn't want to have this as my tow vehicle (I tow a tractor as well as dual jet skis). I decided to keep my fleet at 2 vehicles.
  • Forgot to mention also that my daughter will be driving on her own in a few months, so a third vehicle will be more convenient. If it was just my wife and I, we would stay with 2 cars.

    I haven't test driven the TCH yet, but from all reports it's a very safe car and should be a little easier for a teenager to handle. It's a little more compact and not TOO fast, plus from everyones' comments it seems to encourage judicious use of the gas peddle...

    P.S. to wvgasguy: I have an extra set of wheels/winter tires (18") and the FX handles great in the snow here in Minnesota!
  • wvgasguywvgasguy Posts: 1,405
    I haven't test driven the TCH yet, but from all reports it's a very safe car and should be a little easier for a teenager to handle

    It's got a lot of safety features to make you feel better with her on the road AND being a teenager her friends may think it's cool to be GREEN. She may take an interest in "learning to drive" a hybrid and really save you money (say over the Mustang, MonteCarlo SS and 300ZX I had my kids in)
  • I was wondering if any owners have driven their car fairly aggressively and/or in real bad traffic conditions over a tankful - what would be the worst mileage one could expect to get in a TCH?

    P.S. Thanks wvgasguy - I would only add that she's mentioned a hybrid several times, but she's also eyeing any and all BMW's that we see on the road. To which I respond, like, I'm sure she's going to get one of those! ;) (the first car I ever bought with my own money was a '67 BMW 1600 - don't remember what kind of mileage I got, back when gasoline sold for 35 cents a gallon, but I DO remember how much parts cost when something broke!) :mad:
  • I don't drive agressively, but keeping up with traffic and dealing with all the red lights in Montreal can cost me more than 9 l/100km (25 m/usg - the small display stops there) on some trips, with an average at 8.3 l/100km - 27 m/usgal.
  • I've been using my TCH as a daily commuter; 32 mile roundtrip of city or (mostly) stop-and-go freeway. First tank average of a little over 36 mph. On my third tank right now, and right at 38 mph. I doubt I can coax much better out of it. That's still 50% more than my old 96 4-cylander Camry LE.
  • jbolltjbollt Posts: 737
    Just back from a trip from Tucson, AZ to San Diego (labor day weekend)...I averaged 39.6 mpg going westbound, which includes elevation changes from 2800 ft, to (minus)-200 feet to around 5,000 feet and back to sea level. Average speed 75-80mph, A/C on constant... ECO mode, recirc, set at 74 degrees. Temps in the desert were over 105 the San Diego area, low 80's. Always nice and cool in the car.

    While in CA, we took a short day trip up to Monterey Park, a suburb of L.A. (shudder! sorry, Angelinos, don't have much use for L.A.) and back to our accomodations in S.D. This portion of our long weekend trip included part freeway, 70 mph, part PCH (Pacific coast highway) 45 mph, with stops in Laguna Beach, and Newport Beach, and then surface streets 30-45 mph w/lots of traffic lights... about every 1/2 to 1 mile from Newport Beach to Monterey Park... and then 70 mph freeways back to S.D. All with the use of A/C. It was in the mid 90's away from the immediate coast in so cal. This leg of our trip returned 41.0 mph.

    The return trip from S.D. to Tucson, again all freeway, and 75-80 mph with A/C and cruise control set, yielded 36.9. I figure there might have been some headwinds, and it was basicaly "up hill" overall, as S.D is sea level, and Tucson is 2800 ft. Again, the same elevation changes, 5,000 ft mountain passes, and below sea level in El Centro.

    Overall, I am extremely pleased with the performance, and fuel enonomy of this Hi Tech vehicle.

    Oh, btw, the climb from below sea level to 5,000 feet, includes a very steep climb out of the desert. Using cruise control on this grade, all of my previous vehicles would shift back and forth (as far down as 3rd gear in my 05 Highlander 5 speed automatic 3.3LV6) "hunting" for the right gear, and the speed would vary by up to 10 mph..... The TCH just smoothly maintained the pre-set speed, without any drama. SWEET!

    And the sound system is incredible! iPod allowed no commercials, a fabulous sound.

    When can I take another trip?
  • I'm not sure where to put this post or how to go about doing so. I'm kind of a dummy on these forums. I suppose someone can move it to a better spot if they want. Here goes.

    I just totaled our Honda Pilot. It was a great vehicle, and a much better value for the dollar than the toyota hylander. Loved it, and it saved my life.

    Anyways, we thought it would be a good time to step down in payments and step up in fuel economy. I am having a hard time selling the camry hybrid to my wife. She thinks it is sluggish off the line and is worried about its small size and how it would fair up against a big vehicle in a collision. She thinks the interior looks kind of ford like as well. I think she is just being stubborn.

    I know it is a big jump because you lose the command you have with the pilot. Realistically, she takes alot of small trips back and forth all over town, and it is not unusual to blow through 100.00 worth of gas in 4 days. I am trying to show her how much we can save in fuel, insurance, and car payments to justify it.

    How are people liking these? The only bad thing I can say is that the little compartment doors that click shut are kind of wierd, and maybe they lack some trunk space. Other than that, I like everything else I've seen so far.

    How about performance, handling, braking, and acceleration. Do they stay pretty tight after they brake in? What about road noise--say on a trip?

    One other question for now. What is this tax incentive you get on them. Is it some sort of a tax refund? Are they fairly cheap to insure? Adam
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