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Comments
The people and the governments of Europe have a different mind set than we do. We have to believe we need to change and our government needs to believe we want to change. Right now that isn't happening. I think most people believe that this is a temporary problem. No one wants to invest in alternatives they want their cars with one person in each one and they expect their government to pull a rabbit out of their hat so nothing has to change. The reasoning is understandable if you look at how things worked out in the 70s.
We were "told" there was a fuel shortage. Here in California we bought crappy little cars that were lucky to go 50k miles but they got pretty good mileage. The government jumped in with CARB and CAFE and promised to help work out a solution. Well 30 years later the Fleet fuel mileage was just about flat. As soon as fuel prices went up there was oil everywhere. CARB was supposed to hold tuff and make the manufacturers produce some zero emmisions vehicles by 2002 or so. They huffed and they puffed and then they decided hybrids would be close enough and everyone dropped zero emission vehicles like a bad habit. All bark and no bite.
If we are going to accept some design changes this is the time to get it started. Invest in mass transit now so that even if this period levels off we will at least be working on some solutions.
Think about it, 50 MPG with one person in the car is no better than 25 MPG in a vehicle with two. Cars like the Smart don't even give you that advantage or utility. Put 4 people in a 12.5 MPG SUV and you have moved people just as well as you would have in a 50 MPG sub compact or even a 27K 50MPG hybrid.
With mass transit even a small bus that got 8 MPG with 20 people would move people as well as a 80 MPG car.
One thing the rest of the world does that we could do is drive less. Yes I know that word less is a 4 letter word but that would be a great step forward. Can it be done? With a bit of planning it can and a change in mindset about our cars. They need to be thought of a tools not friends or pets or entertainment. At least that is how I see it. A tool only has to work as designed rather than becoming an extension of the drivers ego.
But to be honest I don't think much will happen in the next few years. We as a nation are tied to the ICE and as long as there is a chance of finding petroleum somewhere, anywhere we will huff and puff but we will look to gas powered vehicles to solve the problem. For once I hope I am wrong.
I pretty much agree with your view.
imho, cheap gas dealt a huge damage to the US because any investment in alternative was simply not interesting. Higher gas price did not really act as a true wake up call and most people just don't seriously reconsider the way they travel.
I would put a lot of blame on the govt, present and past, for failing to develop any vision for a sustainable / long term society.
They weren't many second thoughts when it came to spend trillions in some peace-keeping operations, whereas investing 50 billions for the California HS Train appears to be some kind of unsurmontable challenge.
Multiple car pile-up near Ulm
60 Cars Crash in Massive Pileup on Autobahn
The vaunted German drivers don't seem to be as safe as the Brits:
IRTAD
Of course, there are massive pileups in slow and "safe" NA too, especially seems to happen in the Ottawa Valley, central California, and the southeast.
Germany has a lot less than the US, according to that link. Heck, even Italy does, and if you have ever driven in Italy, that should be really shocking and scary.
AMEN!
Someone paying 100% attention to driving and having some skill and experience in driving well, is 1 MILLION times safer than an old geezer who'd driving around on the freeway going 45 MPH who is distracted by something. It is ALWAYS inattention, negligence, and recklessness that cause accidents, it is NEVER too much speed (unless the car is incapable of going fast, in which case it is driver negligence, incompetence, and/or ignorance because you should know a Camry on 70 Series tires isn't going to take a corner as fast as a BMW on 45 Series tires).
I remember reading that, prior to reunification, the West German Autobahn was one of the safest roads in the world.
Isn't that almost 10-years old? And the article says heavy fog. I think I could find several of those each year here in the U.S.
So I place the blame squarely on our society. We got what we wanted.
It's interesting, this thread began as a discussion of design trade offs we may be willing to accept, and as often happens with these types of discussions, it quickly shifted to a discussion of lifestyle compromises and choices. IMHO, it is lifestyle changes that we are much less willing to accept, and we have developed a very strong relationship between our cars and our lifestyles.
As to design, I think the trade off most likely to have some staying power this time around is small. For years we have trended towards larger vehicles. Even already popular small buggies weren't immune to the bloat. This trend may reverse. Smaller cars and small to mid SUV's and CUV's will increase in popularity. Minivans may actually become mini again. Manufacturers will make small more palatable by squeezing in as much comfort, luxury, performance, utility, convenience, and gadgetry as they can in small packages. Small will become less associated with the econobox. It is a pretty safe prediction and less sexy than other alternatives I know. Small requires less adjustment in lifestyle. Large will never completely go away, but small will garner a bigger piece of the pie.
I tend to agree with your point. And I am not fully blaming the government because I agree that we as a society have proven over the years we prefer bigger, more powerful, faster than our neighbor. What I was targeting was the wasted breath and paper the government expels when they form such things as CARB and CAFE. They sound important but can do nothing against the buying habits of the consumer.
But what I yearn for is a change by the consumer themselves. As a nation we decided to put a lot of effort into the rail system in the late 1800s and early 1900s. The government was committed to it as the consumer approved. Then we decided we needed a national highway system and once again we spent the necessary money to provide one of the best highways systems in the world. At least it is the most extensive highway systems in the world.
If we could at least get started moving towards EVs again and increased mass transit then we could accept cars about the size of the Smart, only with much better mileage. If we weren't looking for a vehicle to do all things all the time we wouldn't need a 260HP Accord for a daily driver.
But I believe you are correct in saying we will take the path that simply adds to what we already have. You might be right that we will see more small vehicles but if there is no other alternative like mass transit of EV or even increased bicycle lanes we are doomed to fall back into the same trap. People get used to paying 5 bucks a gallon and in a very few years cars start getting bigger and the HP goes up and we forget fuel problems. History.
Look at the picture gallery of the elderly driver causing this accident. 45 mph zone with severe lane changes due to major reconstruction. Two cars racing. Three lanes. One pickup truck hit in rear. Other car disappeared. Yup, gotta watch those elderly accidents waiting to happen--can't trust anyone over 39.
photos of speeding
Story
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Legislation rarely does much to change them.
Someone earlier said something about false alarms. I remember when gas prices were stated in cents per gallon. Every time the price broke another dollar barrier, we whined and moaned about it for a while. We griped about the cars the manufacturers were offering. Then we went on our way. I think the alarms are real. We just keep choosing to hit the snooze button. The time from $2 to $4 was pretty quick. Maybe our snooze periods are growing shorter. The boss is on the phone calling to tell us we
are late for work. (cue - A Day in the Life)
I would however expect the govt to undertake some actions that would be out of reach of the common citizen or corporation.
When the Interstate higways were built, I suspect there were much fewer environmental or return on investment impact. There were maybe no serious public consultation, but the work was done even though it was sometimes forcefully made.
There is today no discussion that such a highway network was instrumental in US growth.
OTOH, even a compelling project such as the California High speed stumble against a lack of funding. It has been doing so since 1998. Hurdles are being set against the project that would have been discarded if it was another road project.
Where can we find the strong will previous administrations displayed before?
I don't think the HST need any societal change. There is no need for any law forcing people into trains. I rather believe, as a new technology, that people will see the advantage and naturally increase its use to a point that they will require further extensions. It will simply improve motorists and non-motorists' quality of life. This is what technogical improvements are for. The trade off are the investment needed, expecially because we are starting from nada.
We can focus on electric cars and I trust this way looks very promising, but current road infrastructures can not be extended without limit, and personal transportation will always meet issues with congestion and parking spaces. This is the reason I see train technology as a long term support for quality motoring.
Allright then, let us focus on other designs trade-off for MPG.
what do you think of compressed air powered cars ?
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4217016.html
Seems to be a fair technology, a nice alternative to electrics. I like it
That is one way to force savings on everyone. Its seems the easiest way but give me a break. It smells like some kind of social behavior order, not a gas saving issue.
Maybe everyone should fill out forms to how much gas is allowed for their distance driving. Then figure out how much the car should have used. Then fine those folks.
Just kidding. Its the same thing.
BTW the elderly driver some like to stereotype and blame for traffic problems was 43. Yup, gotta watch those elderly accident causing drivers. He he.
To extend the logic of a one or couple on forum, the two drivers apparently decided the speed limit was set inappropriately for them!!! and their car's ability!!!. They decided that 45 was not the right limit for a 3/2/3 lane interstate even in a construction area. The public knows that the speed limit was set wrong by the bureaucrats. It's normally 50/55.
We apologize to the travelers on I75 because of the regular accidents almost daily that shut down the interstate. We hope those who got off enjoyed the tour of side streets and a few nice areas and few seedy areas depending on the route your Garmin led you on during the hours the interstate was shut down.
Remember the speed limits are only suggestions along with driving carefully and courteously.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Yep and if I am in the middle of doing some passing the I am in the lane with the right of way. You should just stay calm and wait the few seconds for me to complete my pass.
If you pull in front of them causing them to brake
I am not talking about cutting off people, but if I am in the lane you should wait.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Blago has said that the money raised will go to additional state troopers to help in high crime and gang infested areas.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Nope good advice and from personal experience it works.
The best thing to do is maintain your current speed, pull over if the opportunity presents itself, or if you are in the fast lane.... move over.
What happens if none of those options are available, unsafe or not reasonable? If I speed up that makes their tailgating worse.
If I am myself following someone I cannot speed up, but if I slow down it gives more space between me and the car in front of me. If the person thats in front of me suddenly stops I can stop at a slower rate which would give the tailgater opportunity to slow down and an accident is avoided.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Your definition of congestion is soley based on the number of cars on the road, mine is based on the number of cars on the road as opposed to the number the road can safely handle at one time.
Using your definition a two lane city street going freely at or even above SL is more congested than a two lane expressway with enough traffic on it that it slows to below SL. Using my definition it would be the other way around which I think is a lot more accurate.
Think of a hose where the hose is the road available,
Actually if you slow the speed of the water the pressure decreases. Also remember that you have to introduce water into the hose at a reduced rate.
Remember that a road with a slower speed limit can hold more cars, the ability to hold more cars means reduced congestion (or more accurately more cars are needed to cause congestion).
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
They wont, the state police have unofficially been told that unless someone is driving recklessly not to bother with anyone doing under 10 over.
I've heard that some toll roads use a timed speed check between the booths.
I have heard that Ohio used to do that but did so in the 70' and haven't done so since. I know no US toll road that does that.
In ILL there is no way that that can be done unless someone is using a transponder and maybe not even then. However the ILL tollway has repeatedly stated that they would not use that to issue speeding tickets. So far no one has gotten one.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You may not believe in bad luck but there are many times when circumstances beyond our control affect us negatively.
As an example: there is this busy intersection near me, in a 4 month period I was rear ended 3 times at this intersection. Each time I was stopped at a red light, each time the car that hit me was stopped behind me at that stop light. Each time for whatever reason they moved forward and hit me. Now according to you I am a bad driver, I would like to know why?
And if you have 3 not at faults in one year, I'm sure most companies would ding you.
Most companies ding you based on a function of amount paid out and number of payouts in a three year period. One $5,000 payout is not as bad as five $1,000 payouts. I know, I used to run experience modification factors for a large insurance company many years ago.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Provided that you don't find yourself coming on a road buckle, or provided that no deer run infront of you, provided that you don't get a blow out, provided that.......
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Drivers ed. classes don't always offer good real world advice. Maybe, 90% of the time your drivers ed. method works, but you end up being tailgated by a psychopath and you'll regret slowing down as you've suggested.
A lot of younger male (some female) drivers will see slowing down, as you suggested, as confrontational... a challenge. They don't want to be "disrespected". So, they may want a little pay back.
I've tried your drivers ed. method before, you know what happened? They did speed up to pass me, then pulled in front of me and slammed on their brakes. Luckily, I was expecting a foolish move like that and was able to avoid rear ending the idiot. :sick:
What happens if none of those options are available, unsafe or not reasonable? If I speed up that makes their tailgating worse.
I never wrote to speed up. I wouldn't do that unless I was not paying attention and going 10mph under the speed limit or something similar. And maintaining proper speed, if you yourself are not tailgating, should not be unsafe.
And if/when the insurance runs out who pays for the care/financial support of that individual who drive considerably faster than the posted limit?
We the people!
So you want the "freedom' to drive 80-90 becasue you got the ride or the skills?
Great if you got an extra 5 mil laying around!
Who said anything about drivers ed? I am talking about professional driving courses.
A lot of younger male (some female) drivers will see slowing down, as you suggested, as confrontational... a challenge. They don't want to be "disrespected". So, they may want a little pay back.
Other than a sounding of a horn it never has happened.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
In short, I believe the Feds do not need to be involved. Let the people decide what is best for wherever they would reside. :shades:
Now I would be willing to drive a small lightweight vehicle made of Plastic even if it were ugly. So to me it doesn't matter if it is powered by Air, water, electricity or methane gas as long as we have an option.
I do have a concern as I stated in the beginning about the transition time while we wait for a switch over to light weight vehicles. If you have a whole fleet of 1600 pound vehicles on the same freeways and streets as you do 6000 pound trucks, Vans and SUVs piloted by parents doing five things at once.
So in the end what I might be willing to accept as a design trade off or even a life style change will have little effect if indeed we are like the example given of the boss calling us to say we are late to work, and life goes on.
To give an example of the thought that the easiest change, slightly smaller vehicles and slightly better fuel mileage, is the most likely change we will see I will relate a conversation overheard while sitting in a booth with my bicycle club.
“Look across the street John, does that gas station sign say $3.95 a gallon? That is getting better, for a while there I was thinking of selling my X-5 and getting a small sedan. Looks like I can still enjoy my trips to Tahoe.”
Maybe now the same person can simply down size to a X-3 and all will be right in the world, till the next time.
People need to realize there are many members of NRA who don't put a sticker on their rear window or bumper. Some day they'll get a surprise for their aggression when they tailgate someone acting like they're going to hit them in the rear, e.g., just to show off for the lady in the car with them or because they had a bad day already.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
And I would agree with you on that.
In the case where someone is trying to pass at speeds less than... let's say 5 mph of the car they are trying to pass, then they need to either speed up to finish the pass or get back behind that car.
Much as the old saying goes, "S&%t, or get off the pot."
We need a 0 mph national speed limit!!!
We could have that real soon. Right now, $4 gasoline represents a mild "speed limit" to the majority of folks. $5 or $6 gasoline would likely be the most effective 55 mph speed limit ever devised.
And $10 gas would be a "0 mph national speed limit" for most folks.
That's a reason people give for having more mass in their vehicle - so the larger crush zones and material absorb the energy.
From a physics standpoint if you want safety, then rollcages or helmets would be required to drive on the interstate. And all cars would be retrofitted with stability control systems.
Think this idea would be acceptable if administration and fines were based on vehicle size. An owner of a vehicle the size of a Suburban would pay 3 times the fine that a Civic would pay for same speed. This could be scaled up so that a semi would pay perhaps 10 times the fine of the Civic. The fines should be based on the probable damage and consequences of a crash caused by the speeding vehicle.
Now, that is equitable.
But the Civic drivers cause more accidents with higher speed, cutting in and out, changing lanes because the drivers aren't going fast enough, and cutting across lanes to exits at the last minute.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Judging by the continually improving fatality stastistics on our roads, even with higher speeds, these scenarios obviously don't happen enough to be a concern.
Of course, we could also be worried about space aliens landing in the road to abduct drivers, or Big Foot stepping out of the woods to cross the highway, or starlets descending on every state in the union to flash drivers and distract them, or...
You apparently have been in a coma for the last 30 years, or were hiding in a cave in Afghanistan during that time.
The insurance industry lobbied heavily for retention of the national 65 mph speed limit when Congress was considering its repeal in late 1995. They lost.
There has also never been any conclusive proof that higher speeds on limited access highways lead to more accidents, or more severe ones.
golfman4: So you want the "freedom' to drive 80-90 becasue you got the ride or the skills?
Great if you got an extra 5 mil laying around!
Considering that people who drive the slowest on limited access highways are some of the most accident prone, you are targeting the wrong group of drivers.
You do realize that the lightest vehicles on the road are the ones that are the fastest? and the ones that may be driven extremely fast? Motorcycles. So the message to extreme drivers will be get a 1200cc sport motorcycle?