Traffic Laws & Enforcement Tactics

euphonium

The only answer I've heard is that the belts can be used as weapons. The hinge assembly of a seat belt is rather lethal when swung against the head of another passenger.

Maybe, just maybe the incidents of crashes involving school buses = very low making them unnecessary.

stever

You probably noticed how upright, close together (and uncomfortable) the seats were. I think the idea is that the kids will bounce off the seats and thus don't need belts. They never explain what happens when the kids fly over the seats or slide under them.

oldfarmer50

"...What insane reasoning has led to the conclusion that seatbelts are undesirable in a school bus???..."

While it may seem counter-intuitive there is scientific evidence that the lap-belt only configuration that you see in most school buses actually INCREASES injury in the event of an accident. The whip-saw effect snaps little spines. The only way to safely use seat belts in school buses is to have a lap-shoulder design (like in your car). While safer, this configuration is tremendously expensive requiring complete redesign of current school buses. Also, in the event of a serious accident or fire UNBUCKLING 60+ kids would be almost impossible and might result in kids surviving the initial accident but dying later because they couldn't get out of the bus.

Modern school buses are built like tanks. At a safety meeting once we were shown photos of a massive bus/ dump truck accident. The truck had come down a mile long hill towing a trailer filled with 20 tons of stone. The bus pulled out in front of the truck and was hit broadside at what the driver claimed was 40mph (investigators said 60). The bus was knocked sideways 200 feet down the road and snapped off a utility pole before flying into a ditch.

When crash investigators examined the bus they found that the side of the bus at point of impact was deformed by less than 6 inches! The only major injury was a little girl who had her head against the inside of the bus at the point of impact. She was thrown across the bus and received a serious head injury. They said that if she had been wearing a lap belt she would have been torn in half.

Now, having said all this my state requires lap belts on all school buses. But here's the kicker: No school district in the state is required to use them and none of them do. Because the scientific evidence indicates that lap belts might make injuries worse the schools are afraid of being sued. So every day we buckle the belts and roll them up and the kids get on the bus, unroll the belts and start whacking each other with the belt buckles.

Not a week goes by without some one getting a bruised head or a chipped tooth from a seat belt. One of our drivers had to retire on disability because some young wise-[non-permissible content removed] buckled the belts across the isle.

The seat belt laws on school buses is a feel good move that gets a lot of votes for the politicos and costs the taxpayers millions of dollars for nothing. Be grateful that your state has some common sense.

oldfarmer50

"...They never explain what happens when the kids fly over the seats or slide under them..."

As you noticed, those high upright, close together seats are designed to do just what you suggested...bounce the kids back. If the kids are sitting properly in the seat they can't easily fly over or slide under. This is why that "mean old bus driver" sends those notes home telling you "Johnny won't sit in his seat".

stever

that "mean old bus driver"

That would be Crankshaft.

oldfarmer50

Dear Steve's Parents,

Please be advised that steve will be assigned the front seat on the school bus for the remainder of the year.

stever

lol, are you going to leave that note in the mailbox? - the one that the bus driver will be sure to knock over? I'll have to send you some of Lena's brownies. :shades:

Some of you may have seen this over in Inconsiderate Drivers:

OnStar to work with police in cutting down on car chases (Straightline)

grbeck

No doubt the producers of America's Scariest Police Chases are not happy with OnStar.

oldfarmer50

Just the thought of some disgruntled Onstar worker messing with my ride is enough to stop me from buying a GM car. Besides, in the event of a Russian invasion would you want the commies to be able to thwart your escape? :mad:

fintail

I heard on some news report the other day that nationally, the US receives nearly a failing grade for having traffic lights sequenced. To anyone who drives, this is no surprise. The report had some stat of a massive amount of time and fuel that could be conserved if traffic planners would dare to do a passable job.

I mention this because the sticky light I experience now and then is malfunctioning again, and refuses to change, even at 530 am with no cross traffic for awhile. I guess I get to complain to the city again. They will try to fix it, it will work properly for a little while, and then break again (I have to go against red perhaps 50% of the time I cross it now). And of course, not to mention the other ridiculously sequenced lights across this area. Good enough for government work, maybe.

fintail

I wonder if GM police vehicles have onstar. Perhaps someone would find a way to use this idea against law enforcement.

ny540i6

I wonder if GM police vehicles have onstar. Perhaps someone would find a way to use this idea against law enforcement.

OK, now this both amuses and scares me... I can see it now - Impala in full flight, and someone flips the switch.... at least the guy in the Crown Vic with the exploding gas tank no longer has to worry about being rear-ended!

fintail

I would not be surprised to see such an idea become reality. Usually those not employed in an official capacity have greater skill with computers than those in the industry or especially the government.

elias

fine-tail, no need to use onstar to slow the cop cars, they area already absurdly slow for the most part, unless you run across a fourth-gen B4C Z28 cop car.
humid/dense air will slow the cop radio signal propagation speed a wee bit but it's still many orders of magnitude faster than the fastest suspect-vehicle.
ps-c&d has a recent article about cop cars being slow, but i haven't read it yet.
pps- it's the computers & lojack-trackers & trunked radio systems & armaments inside that makes the cop cars so cool, not the engines.
ppps - i love cops!

lemko

...there's a new "Big Brother" camera at Southampton Road on the Roosevelt Blvd. in Philadelphia. I think there's also one at Welsh Road now.

ny540i6

Hallelujiah!

Some activity in some forum that I follow that does NOT involve rolling downhill!

stever

Ah, had your fill of compressed air? Compressing it does make it hot.

1stpik

US receives nearly a failing grade for having traffic lights sequenced. To anyone who drives, this is no surprise. The report had some stat of a massive amount of time and fuel that could be conserved if traffic planners would dare to do a passable job.

Your last statement provides the answer.

Our "representatives" don't want us to SAVE fuel because the more we burn, the more tax money they get.

They don't want us to SAVE time, either, because the worse traffic gets, the more likely voters will approve massive new road construction projects which entail more bribes -- OOPS! I mean "campaign contributions" -- for our "representatives."

So the traffic planners in cities nationwide are doing their jobs perfectly, as prescribed by our "representatives" in government.

oldfarmer50

"...as prescribed by our "representatives" in government..."

Years ago in a city nearby which was noted for its' corruption a group of motorists held a protest on the main drag.

Seems they felt that the local merchants were bribing the traffic control people to sequence the traffic lights in reverse. That is to say, they were programing the traffic lights so you had to stop every block and wait on red in front of a particular store.

Clever little marketing tool. No proof was ever found but I notice the traffic seems to flow better now.

fintail

I've always believed cities intentionally keep lights out of sequence in commercial areas to get more exposure for local business.

Around here the lights are always out of sync everywhere, and the sensors don't work correctly half the time. Now, in the early morning when I go to work and there is no cross traffic, if the light doesn't immediately show it is going to change...I just run it. To hell with these idiots.

euphonium

Usually a person who runs a red light, exceeds the speed limit, violates many other rules and regulations, cheats on his income tax too. Cheaters just don't know where to draw the line, but they do rationalize their unorthodox decisions. :P

fintail

Let those who cast the first stone...of course you must be free from sin

If the local government workers are unable to take accountability for the quality of their work, I am more than happy to simply move around their shoddy workmanship, even if it is "unorthodox". If crossing against red at 0530 when there are zero cars on the road is a sin, send me to hell!

Laws are not just simply because they exist. A nation founded in revolution will die when it becomes the land of blind deference. And indeed, it is dying.

ny540i6

I love these leaps.... however, it is true.... my driving above the speed limit was cured once my therapist addressed my alcoholism and my bed wetting as a child. Fortunately, my chronic unemployment precludes my cheating on my taxes.

lololol

oldfarmer50

"...Laws are not just simply because they exist..."

"A little revolution from time to time is a good thing"--Thomas Jefferson.

You make an interesting point. Where traffic control is subverted by corrupt officials for the benefit of the few is it really wrong to disobey?

fintail

I do not see the harm of disobeying a NEGLIGENTLY maintained light on a deserted road (although I admit it sill feels weird to do it, even after crossing against red dozens of times). It's much more of a true offense to sit in the left lane at a speed lower than the flow of traffic and play deputy speed limit enforcer, as some like to do.

Maybe some kind of massive legal action could be taken against various agencies for their inability to properly maintain their infrastructure. The time and fuel wasted must be enormous. This is a draw on the economy.

elias

have yall seen the stories in wired mag & elsewhere about the gumball rally dude who made it from NY to LA in 31 hours? the wired article is fantastic. it's being covered on foxnews tv now too.

about ignoring lights at 2AM, i did that once - no cars for miles except for the one behind me at the light. i sat at the interminable light and after a minute crawled through the red light. i thought it was funny that the car behind me followed me through the red light - until he turned on his bubble-gum machine 2 miles later and pulled me over. he was an off-duty/unmarked detective (near burlington VT). he said "ELIAS, does everyone down in Boston drive like?" You are amazed that I didn't have a good answer. he ended up letting me skate after a fairly pleasant conversation. lesson learned.

humblecoder

Usually a person who runs a red light, exceeds the speed limit, violates many other rules and regulations, cheats on his income tax too. Cheaters just don't know where to draw the line, but they do rationalize their unorthodox decisions.

I suspect that your statement was tongue-in-cheek, but it did get me thinking about something. Should we accept that all "rules and regulations" are just and should be followed with moral zeal?

Now there are probably some people who feel that there is a moral imperative to follow all rules and regulations, no matter how dumb they are, in order to show respect for law and order.

Personally, I feel that this line of thinking assumes that those making the laws always have the best interest of "society" at heart. However, in practice those making the laws can be just as corrupt as those who choose not to follow those laws. I think it is okay to practice some "civil disobedience" as long as you are willing to accept the punishment if you are caught.

For instance, I remember driving on a rural road where the Speed Limit drops from 50 to 35 at a bend without any warning. Unless you are familiar with that stretch of road, there is no way that an average driver can react to the change in speed limit that quickly. In fact, it is somewhat dangerous since it can lead to panic braking.

What this particular town does is that they often put a speed trap at this point in order to catch the out-of-towners who aren't aware of this abrupt change in speed. It is an easy way for them to raise money, since pretty much everyone will be over the speed limit here.

Personally, I have a problem with this situation since it is clear that the only purpose of this is to manufacture violations, and not to make things safer. In fact, in their zeal to raise money, they probably have made things less safe due to the panic braking that occurs here. So, yes, you have people who are legally wrong for speeding in this area. However, they are morally right for not braking abruptly at possibly causing an accident that way.

Now I have been fortunate enough not to get a ticket on this road, since I am aware of its existence. However, if I were caught, I really do not have any choice but to plead guilty, since, at the end of the day, I am violating the law here.

210delray

Are you talking about an actual reduction in the posted speed limit (black and white sign) or simply an advisory speed for the curve (small yellow and black sign under a diamond-shaped "curve" warning sign)?

In the states that I'm most familiar with, if there's a reduction in the speed limit coming up, there's an advance warning sign saying "reduced speed ahead" or "speed limit 40 ahead." The newest such signs are yellow diamond-shaped ones with the reduced speed limit number and an arrow pointing ahead, like the commonplace pictorial "stop ahead" or "yield ahead" signs.

euphonium

Cheaters just don't know where to draw the line, but they do rationalize their unorthodox decisions.

imidazol97

Adding to 210's comment, after the warning sign that a reduced limit is ahead, the local political unit is supposed to not measure speed for a distance, the number 250 feet in Ohio, sticks in my mind. That gives another buffer unless the officer violates the law with their laser or radar speed measuring device (they surely wouldn't violate the law, would they?).

A big problem here is that some localities set a speed limit with one sign after a crossroad such as 35 mph. Then there's no sign until the next major road, usually one mile. People feel the speed limit increased and don't want to go 35 mph because it looks like "country." But it's within that township-become-city and the limit sticks even though there's no repeat 35 mph sign.

fintail

While blind deference can't be rationalized at all...

oldfarmer50

"...as long as you are willing to accept punishment if caught..."

Which defines the difference between civil disobedience and criminality.

Think about this also, there are about 3000 traffic rules and regulations in the average state. Every time you leave your driveway you are violating at least one of them. It's almost impossible not to.

I was once pulled over by a local police officer because my license plate was crooked. His real reason was because I was driving a very beat-up old Oldsmobile through an upscale neighborhood. The officer couldn't find "driving while poor" in his rules and regs so he used what he could to come up with probable cause for the stop.

humblecoder

In this instance, it was an actual speed limit sign, not an advisory. Also, there was no advisory sign warning of the decrease in the speed limit. Like I said, unless you are familiar with the area, you are going to be over the speed limit when you pass this sign.

humblecoder

Think about this also, there are about 3000 traffic rules and regulations in the average state. Every time you leave your driveway you are violating at least one of them. It's almost impossible not to.

That is probably not just true of traffic rules, but all rules. If you stop and think about all of the obscure (and not so obscure) rules that we are constantly violating, either knowingly or unknowingly, we probably should all be in jail! Even a law-abiding citizen like myself has a hard time keeping up with all of these rules.

stever

"Apparently some GPS units have the capability—in the hands of a savvy user—of possibly proving that radar can be faulty."

GPS a new tool to fight speeding tickets? (Straightline)

imidazol97

Utah speeder tasered

Maybe someone from Utah can explain this to us.

My comments are the officer should have brought the driver back to his car at the first sign of obstinance. :sick:
The officer did not tell him that ,apparently, in Utah if you refuse to sign the ticket you will be arrested to be sure they get their money for that dangerous crime. :P

Whether there are was earlier 40 mph sign on the road before the one on the video would determine if the man was speeding. With all the workers and equipment along the road where the arrest occured, I'm surprised they don't have the speed limit at 25; they could make a lot more arrests that way. BTW I see no sign of work occurring and people are speeding by above 40 during the arrest.

oldfarmer50

In the paper this morning they say that the officer in question was found to have acted properly but that he was taken off duty because of thousands of e-mail complaints and death treats.

imidazol97

The posts on the youtube site for the movie tend to be polarized. But my opinion is that the officer didn't have an authoritation approach and the didn't control the situation. He was buddy buddy at first. I suspect a ticket wasn't really deserved. I don't see workers in the immediate area. Forty miles per hour on a 4 lane highway seems really slow....

The office seems to have measured his speed as he came up from behind? Was he using radar? Then the officer pulled over in front of the 40 mph sign, probably blocking its view from the driver.

In this area when workers aren't present the speed limit doesn't apply (signs say "When workers present."

Having been on several juries, having lawyers as friends, and a few police officers as friends, I'm well aware that some officers are such because they want to have power over people. They have a need to dominate someone.

Officers usually don't follow speed limits and all the driving rules themselves. In this area they have FOP tags for their plates. Their family gets "Get out of jail cards" that they show with their license. Our friend has used hers 5 times in the last two years. One small township police officer wasn't real happy with the idea. It is the same township where the officer leaves his bright beams on and if oncoming traffic flashes their brights at him, he cites them for using their bright lights. They did that to a teenager from our school driving to a work location for a school group where they operate a Halloween scare tour.

The other thing I've learned is that most judges are well aware that officers "stretch the truth" and omit details to make their case. I've been on juries and heard that from attorney friends through the decades. I got out of a nasty jury trial because I had a bad cold last December and it would have required believing officers 100%--it was a case that had been in the news for weeks when it occurred.

I hope the officer's supervisors give him some training.

ny540i6

.... or, how to spend taxpayers' money....

Picture this: "Y" junction, governed by stop signs on the two feeder roads, both of which can be somewhat busy. Road "A" has a traffic light about two blocks back from the junction.

For several years this has worked, with the rare incident of "who was here first" at the intersection, however no real mayhem, since all traffic was flowing into the same direction, sightlines were good etc... so, of course, the city "fixed" it.

Traffic lights were added to both feeders right before the "Y". The result? Timing so screwed up that traffic was backing up on both sides. The solution? Add human beings - traffic folks to direct people to ignore the lights when it got too congested. You say... remove the lights? Well no, since that would mean admitting that it was a mistake to place them there.

The latest idiocy? Paving some of the grassy delta in the middle of the "Y" so the traffic agents have a place to park their car.

And by the way, most of the time, most of the agents simply look up at the light for guidance before telling traffic to do anything.

izaclown1

I have noticed more troopers standing on overpasses with speed detecting devices and several (as many as 6) chasers parked on the other side of the on-ramps running down violators over the holidays. There are several overpasses that have road signs attached to them and they stand right behind the sign. They must be using VASCAR instead of radar or laser, my detector does not go off in these areas.

oldfarmer50

Sometime ago when they raise the speed limits on the interstates to 65 from the old 55 individual states were allowed to have sections where the limit stayed at 55. This was to be where the interstates traveled through urban areas and thus had heavy traffic loads.

Near where I live a section of I-87 suddenly drops from 65 to 55. Many drivers (particularly non-locals) don't notice the change and drive right into the waiting speed traps.

The funny thing is, a few miles later, as you actually get closer to an "urban" area the speed limit goes back up to 65.

Now I may just be paranoid but it seems that they are using the law as a way of getting into our pockets. :mad:

stever

There's been a great thread over the last few days in the Radar/Lidar detectors discussion starting at post 1133. Very comprehensive.

stever

My mom went to one of her docs a couple of weeks ago down in Chattanooga. Yesterday she got a photo radar ticket for going 47 in a 35 mph zone. She said she was just trying to keep up with traffic and that people were passing her.

Mom's 86. :-)

She really enjoyed her years living a bit east of the Bay Area so maybe we can relocate her to Pasadena. Instead of a Super Stock Dodge she has a 1990 Mazda Protege - guess old Mazdas can still zoom zoom too.

euphonium

I know of an elderly gentleman about her age who would like to meet her. He would even buy her a new car because she can drive.

stever

Yeah, that would be great, but we'd really like to figure out a way to get her car out of the picture and not replace it.

One of the grandkids is doing most of the grocery shopping for her now and there are options (besides family) for getting to the doc, but no one wants to let go of the freedom that a car offers, even if it's just the idea that you could drive if you really had to. Naturally there's no "enforcement tactic" in most states for reviewing licenses of elderly drivers when it's time to renew them. It'd be awful if something like that Santa Monica farmer's market crash happened....

Maybe we can hook them up and he can buy one of the grandkids a new car? :shades: (he better like watching football and golf on TV btw)

oldfarmer50

"...I know an elderly gentleman about her age who would like to meet her..."

From your posts I figured you for a younger guy.

imidazol97

> Naturally there's no "enforcement tactic" in most states for reviewing licenses of elderly drivers when it's time to renew them.

Isn't that a little one-sided? States should have a technique for enforcing license renewals for citizens at ALL ages. We have had several people with many DUIs renewing their license easily and then going on to drive DUI again.

They also need to check for insurance on the vehicles as well. That applies at all ages.

I can point out younger drivers who are much more dangerous than some older drivers in our area. Indeed most of the people I see stopped by the local police are middle-aged women typically in an SUV.. They all seem to view speed limits as being for other people but not them. The local police are very generous with their overage allowed before they issue the tickets.

stever

Yeah, but if I'm a parent I can ground my younger driver. If the states would tighten up the renewal procedures, that would take the problem off the kid's shoulders when it's time for the parents to quit driving.

Then I suppose there would be a bunch of unlicensed elderly drivers out there just like all the people with DUI convictions driving on a suspended license.

If you're saying it's too easy to get and keep a drivers license in the US, then I agree with you. Going to the DMV every 2 years doesn't sound like a lot of fun though. :sick:

paisan

In NYS I think our lisc. are good for like 5 years and you get a picture taken only ever 10 years so you only need to go to DMV every 10 years or so.

-mike

ny540i6

Not if your pic looks like mine - I keep hoping I look better the next time