Traffic Laws & Enforcement Tactics

imidazol97

Despite the propaganda from the cities and red light camera companies that (ALL) intersections experience a decrease in accidents when they really should say only the intersections with the red light cameras have a decrease, look what happened in Cleveland.

Cleveland: accidents INCREASED

ny540i6

Running up the NJ turnpike one early evening, moderate traffic, clear weather, no rain. This was a section of the 'pike with a few miles between exits, and I'm doing a bit north of the speed limit - around 80 in a posted 65. At some point I get passed by someone doing well over 90. About a minute later an unmarked comes up behind me, lights go on, and I pull over to the right shoulder. Officer pulls up next to my car, I roll my window down, and he yells "follow me".

Well, this is different for me, but I mentally scratch my head, and follow. At one point we hit 120 mph. I'm still not sure what's going on, and I wonder if I get off at the next exit what the repercussions might be.

Bottom line is that he was chasing the other guy, and simply swept me up along the way. We catch up, he pulls over and we all stop. I get written for "obstructed windshield" (radar detector). He points out that it is a no point ticket, can be paid by mail etc... needless to say I was grateful. I don't know what the other guy got written for.

I drove away a little puzzled - if my original 80-85 was unsafe, then my 120 must have been practically homicidal!

imidazol97

So a New Jersey officer orders you to break the speed limit risking your life and that of others if you were to have an accident.

fintail

Now that's some fine revenue collection

ny540i6

Fin,

In hindsight, I would really, really have appreciated getting stopped from behind by another trooper. I can see it now "But officer, I'm following HIM!"

LOL

elias

that's awesome, ny540i6. i can only wish for my next citation to be that much fun, in NJ or anywhere else. personally i keep my V1 on the visor so the trooper would have had to cite me for something else, such as my 'default' speed of 80 mph or so.
the fact that he didn't cite you for your 80mph seems to imply he didn't think it was unsafe. cool. even if NJ is not a "prima facie speed law" state, bottom line is that it's the patrol cop who decides what is the actual speed limit.
for my one/recent NJ citation, i was literally out of line - doing almost 90 in the empty right lane while the left 2 lanes were stacked up doing 68. now when i drive in NJ, i never allow my front wheels to cross the axle-line of any other vehicle's front wheels to my left, even if it is 3 lanes to my left. this sometimes seems to baffle other drivers but i do try to follow the no-passing-on-right law in NJ as safely and literally as possible...
personally i always defer to the cops judgement and only tell him that i disagree if s/he specifically asks me to respond to his accusations. "yes officer i was driving about 80, but i believe i signalled every lane change and did not tailgate once." i haven't fought any citation via court/clerk in about 20 years. i tell people that arguing with a cop at the side of the road is like a non-engineer visiting my cube at my workplace and telling me that i'm doing my engineering all wrong. i'd proably open a can of techno-whup-[non-permissible content removed] on anyone who tried that!

ny540i6

Geeeze.... on the phone right now with a friend.... she had something happen last night that I wish for, but rarely get; Heading out on a business trip, rolling through Delaware, gets stopped for speeding. Officer advises that she was doing 84 in a 55 (1 a. m., no traffic, no precipitation). Usual questions are asked, he goes away, and comes back with.... A TICKET FOR 64!!! And "Ma'am, you can pay this by mail, it's a $50 fine, please be careful pulling into traffic"

OK, so she is cute, and drives a nice conservative silver Avalon, but geeeze!!!

Sorry, just had to vent. :P

elias

ny540i6, i look like Dave Attell's identical twin but have had the same/similar thing happen to me more times than i can count. The cop usually tells me he is lowering the # on the ticket so that it will stay as a 3-point/minimum-severity ticket. On highways I select my "default speed" with that in mind, in case I do get stopped & cited. I think there is a benefit to the cop who does that - I think the speeder is much less likely to contest the ticket via clerk/court if it's just a minimum-points/lowest-severity speeding ticket.
ps - i traffic-school!

ny540i6

Elias, I too have gotten my share of breaks, and I agree that very often a good attitude and a busy court schedule can pay dividends.

ny540i6

Folks, I'm curious as to the opinions around this topic: should plea deals be possible, or encouraged on tickets?

An example.... I am cited for 96 in a 55. Method used to give the ticket was checked of as "pacing". Ticket was issued at 1:35 a. m. on a clear night, zero precip, well above freezing, zero traffic, on a clear, straight section of limited access turnpike.

My editorial comment at this point is that if we really believe that "speed kills", and if found guilty, I should get the book thrown at me.

Anyway....

I call a few attorneys - dismiss the one who says he can "guarantee" me no suspension, and hire a guy who seems reasonable. Go to court, get there a few minutes late, meet the attorney who says "most of the work is done, you need to sign this". I sign an affidavit admitting that I was doing 69 in a 55, and go before the judge, who fines me $126 plus "court costs" making the grand total $156. No suspension, no effect on license...

I leave, stunned, pleasantly stunned.

My question again (sorry for being long winded) is simply... should this be?

elias

sounds ok to me and my little friend. but if you do the math i think you'll see that 96 mph at night is driving too fast for factory headlight range. of course, a friend of mine briefly did the same speed plus - 2 nights ago, pacing/passing/vastly-out-accelerating a BMW 540. it was a 65 zone but that doesn't change headlight range!

dtownfb

No, but lucky for you, you could a) afford an attorney and b)didn't go into court with an attitude. I won't go into my "this is wrong with the justice system" tirade.

Because the cop used an "imprecise" method and there was no accident or harm to anyone, your attorney basically got them to lower the cost and not affect your record. It happens everyday in court. Pay the fine and be on your way. And slow down next time.

fintail

I see my fair city is contemplating the use of red light cameras and speed cameras. They claim the cameras will only be used in known problem areas (of which there are quite a few here, due to poor infrastructure planning)...maybe this will create a movement to finally get these accountability-free bastards to sequence their lights correctly. Of course, that's probably just a pipe dream.

I will wager one will be able to find a link between the owner of a camera company and a city councilman or higher up as well.

ny540i6

LOLOL.... I got all the lecture I needed from the judge, thanks. And I already paid the fine.

You might have missed or ignored the point of my post - I am not complaining that things worked out for me, nor am I ignorant to the fact that "it happens every day". The question I put out there was "should" this happen every day. Perhaps a different example... in NYC we have a law that says simply this: You shoot someone with an unregistered handgun (even if in self defense) you get a year in jail. Reason? The city felt that gun crime was out of control, so decided to get tough. Another example, is drunk driving - the rules are way more stringent than they used to be, for good reason, with good effect. So my question, restated, is what message are we sending when the system seems to encourage a double standard, or at least seems to wink at its basic rule?

I am not having a tirade about anything; I thought that this forum existed to stimulate discussion, perhaps differing points of view, without name calling or judgment.

ny540i6

Wait a sec.... THAT was you??? LOLOL

Actually, the machine does not run only the factory low beams - the highs are upgrades. You are correct, in that it would be a concern.

And no, I was not doing 96... somewhere around 85-88 would be a better estimate - there was no actual "pacing" involved - the trooper was perpendicular to the roadway, I went by, he pulled out, I pulled over - he never even put the lights on, until we had stopped.

stever

When you first posted the other day, I did a bit of searching about "plea bargain." Policies are all over the map - it depends largely on where you live. Some countries outright ban the practice. Here in the US, it seems an easy way for the prosecutors to keep their convictions rate up, keeps the courts from becoming even more clogged and helps the defense bar justify their fees for getting you a reduced sentence and/or fine.

I think the economics outweigh the "justice" concerns. Speeding doesn't carry the same significance as, say, drunk driving, so there's not a big political push to limit plea bargaining in those cases either.

oldfarmer50

Read post #292 for my take on this.

stever

Until after your day in court anyway:

Anything you Blog can and will be used against you...

elias

heh heh. well, ny540i6, it was a friend of mine, not really me. ahem. my friend does get a kick out of safely accelerating around the buttheads who try to "block" faster traffic. they usually try to also accelerate and keep "blocking". it's comical to see them try it. and to that end, my friend's GTO is indeed a "sleeper" much like an M5 might be. it's almost scary how much faster the GTO is than other cars and how it can accelerate around the other cars no matter the traffic-speed or blocker's speed. My friend can't really imagine really wanting a 500+ car next, given how fast the 400 ft-lb 400 hp GTO is.

euphonium

Why can't your GTO friend obey the speed limit and stay behind the blocker?

fintail

The blocker probably isn't a law enforcement professional, and has no more right to be blocking than the GTO has to be speeding :P

elias

nature abhors a vacuum. GTO friend abhors an open-lane to the right of a left-lane or middle-lane 'blocker'. Also he actually enjoys mandatory detention by state employees at the side of highways and the resulting conversations and possible traffic school. He has maintained 'safe driver' insurance credit and zero points on license despite 5 speeding citations in 2 years. He definitely needs some new 'outlets' in his life, however, and may be available some year soon for 'conversation' with any available ex-NFL-cheerleaders instead.
One state employee enquired "you weren't going that fast (70 in a 55) but why were you passing on the right? - that's why I pulled you over.". Friend answered "As far as I know, that's where the law requires me to drive as long as the lane is clear." State employee replied, "Goodbye, and have a nice evening".

ny540i6

Please don't.... please, please, please....

Let's not go to the never ending "it is my right to speed, it is your right to block me" discusssion....

elias

no worry, ny540i6, i wouldn't do that to ye. when all the lanes are blocked i am happy to 'camp' at a safe distance for hours behind the blocker/car in left lane or any lane. if (when) i am then tailgated, i very-gradually slow and increase 'gap' in front of my car until the tailgator backs off or until we reach the minimum legal highway speed, or until the gap ahead is large enough for me to gas it up to 79 (ahem) mph to resume a safe distance behind the blocker.

ny540i6

Hey, tell me... why is driving the place where people are so convinced of their own "rightness"? In other words, most people KNOW that anyone driving faster than they are is a homicidal/suicidal maniac, and they also KNOW that anyone driving slower than they are is an incompetent idiot who just can't drive! LOLOL

Me? no matter what speed I am going, I try to get out of the way of the faster person behind me, and reserve my opinion. The only exception to this is if I am rolling along in what I see as the "slow" lane - if I am all the way right, then you gotta go around me.

210delray

Bingo...you just won the prize for determining why "education" doesn't work for driving, because everyone thinks they already know it all! It everyone ELSE who needs educating.

imidazol97

There is an additional factor in that with an automobile there can aggression without recourse on the part of the recipient. Many people use the car as an extension of their ego and vent their frustrations, at others and themselves, on the poor person unlucky enough to be near them on the road.

The police rarely, if ever, catch the people acting aggressively. In Ohio, stopping for traffic offenses is done only with marked cars by law. So the tailgaters and lane cutoffs aren't seen by an officer in an unmarked car.

There is hope. I heard about Kentucky using tractors with trailers to catch those who cutover and do dangerous things. The passenger is an officer. A caller to Cincy radio discussion this said he was cited for cutting in at 80.6 feet. I may not have the exact numbers but they are out there trying. KY also has radio ads about cutting off tractor/trailer--as if the trucks in KY drive like little old ladies.

elias

i dunno the answer ny540i6. personally i don't think the people who drive faster than me/79mph are maniacs unless they exhibit some behavior other than driving 80+ . i get out of the way of faster traffic too, as soon as there are lane(s) available to the right. i am a fiend for lane-discipline.
but so often all the lanes are jam-packed - nowhere to go, without cutting someone off. often in those situations i do intentionally avoid the left lane - people stack up so tightly in the left lane, but don't really go anywhere. in those situations it's much nicer to be styling & relaxing in the right & middle lanes, changing lanes safely only when there is space, not too often, never tailgating.

ny540i6

One of the funny things I see out there is the "I'm not slow" syndrome... usually the right lane (using a three lane highway as an example) is under-travelled... So I often find myself struggling - I firmly believe that lane discipline is a good thing, and that a pass on the left is safer than a pass on the right, however so many folks seem to want to avoid the "stigma" of being slow, so they drive in the middle and left lanes, leaving little option but to pass on the right.

euphonium

It doesn't matter what the blocker is & what right he may not have, just answer the question, if you can.

fintail

It fully matters who is blocking, and who believes they are a deputized traffic cop, and who believes they are in a position to demand answers.

Take the law into your own hands, and someone might do the same in return :lemon:

If you don't like my driving...well...sucks to be you. I can just go around.

ny540i6

OK, let's fast forward - some think that lane discipline is important. Signs like "Slower traffic keep right" or "Drive right, pass left" or "Left lane for passing" mean something. Others feel "This is America, I'll drive where I want, at whatever speed I want". Still others feel "You are unsafe at any speed above mine, and it is up to me to MAKE you safe!" And of course, (to be fair) there are those who believe "if I get far enough up your butt I'll MAKE you move...."

Number 'em, pick one, move on.

imidazol97

You left out "Speed Limit 65" for those who wish to violate it but point at the other guy not following the suggested "slower traffic keep right" signs. The same speeders ignore the "Left Lane for Passing" signs and drive there all the time.

euphonium

3 lanes Southbound I-5 & speed limit 60. Traffic moving between 60 & 65 Three abreast. You want to go faster, but explain why you do not want to submit to the blocker's speed ahead of you?

Forget the deputized cop spewing, just explain & justify why you can't be submissive to those ahead of you?

fintail

I am only submissive to those who deserve it. Wannabe traffic cops who spew credential-free lies about submissiveness don't :P Don't worry though, I don't feel bad anymore about passing on the right. And I'm willing to bet everything you own that the lane blocker won't be able to keep up with my acceleration if he gets jerky and tries to speed up as I pass

I know of no three lane stretch of I5 where all lanes are moving between 60-65, and where there is any order in speed. Often the left lane can be going 70, the middle 50, and the right lane 60. It is a very undisciplined stretch of roadway.

ny540i6

Well, not to be picky, but shouldn't the left lane be empty? I mean, if we put ALL the pieces together, then we are saying that the "slow lane" is doing 60, the middle lane is doing 65, and the "passing lane" is empty except for the occasional pass, after which the passer moves back to the middle, right?

oregonboy

Generally,
the slow lane is occupied by truckers going 67-68,
the center lane has cars cruising 60-70 and trucks 68-72,
and the left lane has cars going between 65-75.
The left lane is frequently NOT the fastest.

Anyone wishing to go faster has to find a route through traffic in which ever lane is open. Drivers moving right to allow faster vehicles to pass are in the minority, maybe 40% or so.

Just my observations based on extensive travel between Tacoma and S. Oregon. :shades:

james

elias

In states where it's legal (and often technically mandated), I *always* pass on the right if the right lane is open. This relates to law-enforcement because it can result in being detained, because it is so unusual when people follow the "drive in rightmost lane which is available" as mandated in most (all?) states, independent of whether passing on the right is allowed or not.
Like I mentioned previously, the cop (city) let me go in a jiffy when I told him I understood I was required to pass using the right lane if it is available (NH & MA). He initially told me that he had pulled me over *because* I was passing on the right.

fintail

I heard on BBC Radio 1 today that the Brits are going to now crack down on people smoking when driving - no joke. It's about time.

stever

Here's a link Fintail:

"Motorists who smoke at the wheel could be prosecuted under a new rule in the latest edition of the Highway Code.

Mr Fitzpatrick told BBC News: "What it says is that drivers should remember they have to concentrate and they shouldn't be distracted either by passengers, by loud music, by reading a map, or using a mobile phone or by smoking."

Smoking drivers risk prosecution (BBC)

izaclown1

There was an article in the Washington Post 10/01/07 about using laser grids to count the number of people in a car. The laser reflects off of the skin differently than what a heat seeking beam. This would be for counting people in the high occupancy lanes. One big issue that is being waged is privacy. What if you are going to wok with your new gal and the wide finds out about it due do a ticket.

stever

Photo radar tickets get mailed to your home.

Urban legend has it that some marriages broke up after the person opening the letter saw the ticket which included a photo of their spouse riding around town with their boy/girl friend. Supposedly tickets no longer get mailed out with the photo.

Sound too good not to be true, eh? :P

british_rover

new gal and the wide finds out about it due do a ticket.

Freudian slip there?

210delray

As in trade in the "wide load" for one of those spunky youthful sportsters?

oldfarmer50

Today I'm driving my school bus on a 3 lane interstate at 55mph (this is the fastest we are allowed to go by the district).

I approach a woman driving in the center lane doing 50mph in the center lane. Oh,did I mention, the speed limit is 65.

We're taught not to pass on the right so I slow down and wait to see what this woman will do. She slows down and matches my speed. We're both now doing 45 in a 65 zone.

I conclude that this woman has some mental problem and is on drugs so I carefully merge over into the left lane avoiding the cars that are starting to back up behind us.

I resume 55 and start to pass. Yea,you guessed it, she speeds up and matches me. I take it up to 60, she matches me. 65, she matches me. I drop down to 55 and pull in behind her. She slows to 50.

I finally reached my exit and left this ding-bat to play her games with someone else. :mad:

imidazol97

You have my sympathy as a bus driver. I was a few cars behind a local bus and her stop sign flipped out with flashing lights but the large overhead lights on the rear didn't work. I knew she didn't forget to turn them on at two different stops. I called the board office on my cell and they transferred me to the bus coordinator. He let her know on the radio that her rear red lights weren't working.

My point is everyone watches what you do looking for that little mistake. I would not have called if her lights worked at the next stop, but I was sure something wasn't right. We've had students hit and even killed in the area by drivers not stopping for buses.

elias

that freudian slip was hilarious, alright. i wasn't going to say anything about it, but hey, the cat's out of the bag now!
oldfarmer-police-officer, i encounter drivers like that all the time. in the enforcement-dept, i don't think i have EVER seen one of those people get cited. too bad - they all deserve citations imho. i don't think they are all on drugs although statistically there is a good chance they are on some prescribed pharmaceutical poison or other, the kind that Tom Cruise correctly rails against.
some of them are agressive drivers and some are just unskilled. i call them all SPEED MAGNETS .

oldfarmer50

"...the large overhead lights on the rear didn't work..."

Sounds like that bus driver didn't do her morning pre-trip check of the bus. We're required to check 164 different things every time we take the bus out.

Gone are the days of the school bus driver from the "Crankshaft" cartoons. Now we have more rules and regulations than airplane pilots. Most are necessary, some are just "feel good" laws passed to get some politico a few votes.

One rule we now have to follow requires us to train all students to pause on the last step as they exit the bus and peek out the door toward the rear. The reason for this is that last year some knuckle head tried to pass a stopped school bus on the right shoulder as a 7 year-old got off and ran him down. The guy's excuse: "there were no stop signs sticking out of that side". :mad:

izaclown1

new gal and the wide finds out about it due do a ticket.

Freudian slip there?

Maybe, maybe not...

oregonboy

I recently attended a Seattle area "Show of Homes" where we were shuttled from the parking area to the homes in a school bus. The first thing I noticed when I sat down in the bus was, there were no seatbelts.

What insane reasoning has led to the conclusion that seatbelts are undesirable in a school bus??? :confuse:

james