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Traffic Laws & Enforcement Tactics

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  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    I'd be an odd profile, though. Middle aged white guy. Huh?

    I do think he was having that slow day. This road used to have a 35 limit on it and they dropped it to 25 years ago. Since it was built for 35 it is difficult to get the concept of 25 on it.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    years ago, I was out riding in my '68 Dart with a girl I was dating at the time. At a traffic light, we saw some of her friends in an early 90's Cavalier coupe. It was a midline model, like an "RS" or something like that, but just had a 4-cyl and a stick.

    We were both the lead cars at the light, so when it turned green we decided to be stupid and race. I ended up walking them like a dog, but when I got up to about 55 I just let off and coasted. They caught up, rode along beside for a couple seconds or so, and then turned off. Then suddenly, out of nowhere, there's a cop coming up behind me and he pulls me over!

    Cop and his partner walk up to me and he asks me "So tell me. Who won?". I just looked at him and replied sadly..."Well it looks like I lost". It turns out the cops in general were all up in arms about speeding and reckless driving in general because a few weeks before, some teens, a Ford Escort, alcohol, speeding, and a country road all mixed to result in an Escort broken in two and several dead kids.

    But then one of the cops said that he was appreciative of the fact that I only got it up to about 55 instead of getting really wild (although the speed limit was only like 45). When he saw the "V8" badge on the fender, he asked why I even bothered to race that Cavalier, because it was such a lopsided match. They also wanted me to pop the hood and trunk to make sure the car really was stock and that I wasn't running nitrous or something. I mean, c'mon...it's a 318-2bbl...it's not like I took off THAT fast! It would've been faster than just about any copcar in recent memory at that time, short of a Camaro/Mustang interceptor or the LT-1 Caprices (in 0-60/quarter mile, at least...most copcars would most likely have a higher top end), but it still wasn't THAT fast.

    Oh, and then the cops start talking about ways I could make it faster, like swapping on a 4-bbl, changing the back tires (I was broke at the time, and actually running snow tires on the back that my Mom handed down to me when she gave me her old Malibu and were three days older than Moses). Yeah guys, that's a great way to drive home the point of responsible motoring...give me suggestions on how to make it FASTER. :confuse: Maybe so in the future, they could write a fatter ticket? :P
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,242
    So, this past weekend they start enforcing the new primary seat belt law in MO, meaning they can pull you over for that offense alone.

    One of my co-workers got pulled over for not wearing hers, and the officer gave her NO ticket, but told her that if she put it on right away, he would give her a coupon for a free shake at Sonic. Positive enforcement, but... where's the free shake for all of us who wear our seat belts every day? :cry:

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  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Hey! No fair!!

    Well, it would be sufficiently far away to the nearest Sonic to make it a bad deal for me anyway. I could be bribed with Carvel...
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Oh yeah, that's right...aren't we both about equidistant from that same Sonic? I think it's over on Maryland's Eastern Shore? Or maybe even in Delaware?
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Yeah. One or the other. We really out to figure it out and meet there one Saturday. It'd give me an excuse to go hit the Cape May Ferry.

    Don't suppose the DeSoto can go that far.....
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Bridgeville, Delaware if I'm not mistaken....
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Yeah, that's it...Bridgeville. As for the DeSoto, it might GO that far. Now STOPPING, that's a different story. :blush:
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    I KNEW there was a catch. Feel free to bring any of you vast array of Mopar..... We need a date....
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    This road used to have a 35 limit on it and they dropped it to 25 years ago.

    Sounds just like the road I grew up on. My mother still lives in the same house. The road had a 35 mph speed limit as far back as I can recall, and then it was lowered to 25 maybe 10 or so years ago. It's absurd, especially considering there's been no new development on that road since about 1965!
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    My title is misleading since the cars getting crushed have stolen parts in them. "Police need a court order to destroy the cars. They must prove that the serial or identification numbers on a vehicle or its parts are removed, altered or destroyed."

    What say the peanut gallery?

    CA cops crushing street racers (Straightline - the quote is from the LA Times story linked there)

    image
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,676
    The local paper had that story last week with a couple different pictures. I started to post but didn't. I liked the storyline.

    The theft problem related tot he replacement/souping up parts demand is a major problem. I think this is handled right. It's a tough lesson for youths but it's there.

    Will it slow down street racing? Probably. Get caught; your car gets checked out.

    Do they have safety checks, pollution checks in California where the cars might regularly be checked out for parts? That would be profiling, yeah, but it's to society's good.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    seems like a total waste of tax payer money. Why not just sell the cars off and not let the owner, or his family bid on it? Make money for government and teach the exact same lesson!
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • izaclown1izaclown1 Member Posts: 118
    Who would stop a friend from buying it for the driver? :confuse:
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    And if the stolen property is yours, there goes any hope of ever getting it back.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    You make another law that says if anyone is caught "gifting" a confiscated vehicle back to the original owner, they will get the death penalty?

    Or life in prison if that's too harsh for you.

    That would solve the friend buying it for you back problem.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,676
    I think having stolen parts that don't match the original equipment might be a problem for the city/state to sell the car.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    If something of mine is stolen, I'd like to get it back - not have it crushed. But a lot of that stuff probably winds up in an evidence locker for years and you'd probably never see it again anyway.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    I'm sure a good lawyer could "recover" evidence that you own and have full rights to.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • izaclown1izaclown1 Member Posts: 118
    "You make another law that says if anyone is caught "gifting" a confiscated vehicle back to the original owner, they will get the death penalty?

    Or life in prison if that's too harsh for you.

    That would solve the friend buying it for you back problem."

    Sound good to me... :D
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    ...especially if you happen to be a Virgina resident ( thank God I only work there ).

    15 mph over or miss a signal - lose your house

    OK that's an exageration...but maybe it's not :surprise:
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Well, at the very real risk of sounding like Pollyanna or something :sick: I have to say that if you don't go outside the lines, you don't have to pay any of that. Not sure why some are so upset (and they are, it's not just you, I live here and see it)... people want to be able to violate the law with only a nominal penalty if you get caught?

    I don't really understand why it only applies to citizens of the commonwealth, though. That seems very odd.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Yes that is unusual. I'm also shocked about the 'residual' liability one might have to the state of up to 11 years @ $1050 per. Wow!! That could be as much as $15000 for a more serious offense.

    Are most people that you meet aware of the new law, Pat? Almost no one at our store was and it's a key part of our jobs, being on the roads all the time.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    No, they are not aware of it. I'm not sure how this happened with no one noticing and that's probably contributing to people being upset about it. I wasn't aware of it until a week or so ago and I'm pretty up to date on what's happening in the world, or so I thought. This one has definitely been kept under the radar. So to speak. :)
  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,205
    Maybe the sheriff from the first story had to steal money to pay the fines in the second story.

    Here in NY we have something similar, although not quite so outrageous. It has nothing to do with driver safety and everything to do with government getting it's hand in your pocket. The cowards we elect to represent us don't have the gonads to raise taxes so they slap "fees" and "safety assessments" on groups who have no political clout.

    In NY you can get a $50 fine, a $100 surcharge and a $125 safety assessment all on the same ticket. Of course what would you expect from a state that taxes uninsured medical patients an extra 5% of the bill to pay for illegal's medical care.

    I sorry to rant but this amounts to nothing less than war on the working poor of this country. For the rich these fees mean nothing, for the middle class they are a royal pain, but for some poor slob working for $9 an hour these fines could result in loss of license when he can't pay and the loss of his job when he can't get to work.

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    There's excellent reason it doesn't not apply to those outside of Virginia. It would not take long for states to start imposing "zero tolerance" for Virginia plates in their states as a retaliatory response.

    What an insane law. I have no problem with some teeth in enforcement but up to a year in jail for 70 in a 55? I don't think so.

    What a coincidence that the legislator that slipped this into an unrelated bill just happens to be a partner in a law firm that specializes in getting people out of this sort of thing. Cleverly includes a thing that prohibits judges from reducing sentences so more folks will decide it is better to pay this clown's firm to represent them rather than risk losing in court.

    "'The purpose of the civil remedial fees imposed in this section is to generate revenue,' the new law states. (Virginia Code 46.2-206.1)"

    No kidding!

    If you look at the various elements a simple speeding ticket can run you over $6,000!

    Takes Virginia right off of my list of states I'll spend my money in.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    One thing is certain now. Anyone who speeds, runs a red light, is grossly negligent, passes a stopped school bus or God forbid is DUI is going to pay and pay and pay.

    What if you move out of state as a result of such a fine? Or are transferred such as in the many military people here. Does VA put a tax lien on you until you finally pay up? It's next to impossible to buy anything on credit with an open tax lien on your record.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    I can't imagine what they do. Since they even specify that this is a tax for a good chunk of it I would think that collecting on someone who moves out of state would present difficulties. I would expect that the last thing they want to do is have this become an interstate squabble because that would bring the federal courts in and start down the little path of "is this Constitutional?"
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    I still don't see why it's too difficult to avoid - just don't do those things. They are illegal. :mad:

    I don't disagree that these fines are way extreme and I have to wonder if some challenge here or there won't strike them down, but I get irritated enough at people blowing by me and weaving very unsafely through lanes on crowded interstates and no one EVER EVER signaling a turn that it all seems peachy keen to me. :)
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Man and I thought the speed [non-permissible content removed] in Virginia were bad back when Glimore and Allen were in power. Remember the millions of dollars spent on the airborne speed enforcement program? There were some highways in VA where it seems like every two or three miles with a sign warning about airborne enforcement and the big white lines the aircraft used to check speed.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    If all they did was catch the people blowing by everyone else I wouldn't be as outraged as I am at this. It doesn't work that way. They will do the same "OK, let's put up a revenue enhancement trap and make some money today" that they always do.

    Assuming this things holds up the first challenge it will mean that you will have people who start down the slide from the middle class because they went 54 in a 50, missed a turn signal once or, heaven forbid, had something that in a random officer's mind "obstructs their view." Swell. All because one legislator's law firm that specializes in traffic tickets wanted more revenue.

    This is everything that is wrong in special interest government.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    You are making a lot of assumptions. Personally, I'd rather wait and see what happens.

    Let me be clear about this - I don't think using the tactics you suggest to apply large fines to anyone for contrived reasons is at all acceptable, but there is something that perhaps those who don't live here understand. The legislation of this state has consistently denied funds for highway improvements over and over and over again. The traffic situation is horrendous in several parts of Virginia, one of them where I live. One accident at "rush" hour in one strategic place (and there are dozens upon dozens of these) throws the entire area into instant gridlock, a gridlock that can take three or more hours to resolve. If it's one of the numerous tunnels, it can take 8-12 hours.

    This is an area very vulnerable to hurricanes. This is an area that has absolutely NO viable evacuation plan because of the multiple surrounding waterways and lack of highways, bridges and tunnels to handle a mass exit of the population that now inhabits the area.

    The fact of the matter is that the budget of this commonwealth has been controlled for years by rural legislators whose constituents don't live in either northern Virginia or in southeastern Virginia and are not affected by the unique circumstances of either area. So they do not care about the years of neglect of the legitimate needs of the heavily populated areas, they only care about proving to their constituents that they aren't spending money.

    I do not condone any law enforcement tactics plotting to trap motorists frivolously for no other purpose than to generate funds. But neither do I object to honest law enforcement raising money by holding blatant law-breakers accountable to the LAWS that are in place to protect us all. The revenue is badly needed and those people, the ones who have no concern whatsoever about how their recklessness endangers others, are around me every day, all day long.

    If they don't want to make a large individual donation to fixing these problems, all they need to do is obey the law.

    :: Pollyanna stepping off of soap box now. :blush: ::
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Well, let's see.....

    Living in New Jersey I certainly know a little about insane traffic even though I decided to get out of the area of the worst traffic decades ago.

    I don't see the connection between the neglected roads down there (and I know the ones you're talking about and they absolutely qualify as dismal) and this new law. I saw a lot of money disappearing from peoples wallets for relatively minor violations but none saying that has to go into highway construction or maintenance. It's hard to get that money where it belongs when you have a dedicated tax. It's darn impossible when you don't.

    The fact that this money comes from traffic violations won't mean a darn thing to the rural legislators who will just see a bigger pie to use to take care of their own. This is the nature of legislative bodies. On a national scale it's how you get the bridge to nowhere.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Been there too. I lived in North Jersey for 20+ years and commuted into NYC for most of that time...unless I was on the road from Boston to Baltimore.

    The biggest problem I had with NJ's system was the 'no fault' insurance rates which were, I guess still are, ridiculous. I now insure three new vehicles in NC for what it cost me for one back in the 90's.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Well, let's see..... what's the insurance cost?

    Ours came down somewhat but now I have an 18 year old on the policy so it's back up.

    We have had a lot of the insurance companies that had left as long ago as the late 70s come back. For all his other failings, McGreevey did accomplish that.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Come drive with me for a month, heck, even a week or a day. And then tell me you would oppose extreme measures to deter the ubiquitous suicidal drivers who are all over my roads trying to kill me with themselves. :mad:
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,789
    So.. bad drivers are only in Virginia? ;)

    I see it as another outsize tax on the middle class. Poor, uninsured drivers won't have to worry about it. They have neither the funds or assets to pay a large civil judgement.

    I doubt it will pass a legal challenge. Especially since they've already stated that the intent is to build up the highway fund, not to punish the traffic law offenders.

    Adding unjustifiably high civil penalties to minor traffic offenses, because the elected officials don't have the collective will to raise the money fairly and equitably across the tax base is just ludicrous.

    If the state is tacitly allowing such behavior on the roadways, by not agressively enforcing the traffic laws, then the remedy is fairly simple. I don't see what that has to do with the road funds.

    regards,
    kyfdx
    visiting host

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  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Looks like the governor's taking a lot of heat over this.

    RICHMOND, Va. (AP) -- The General Assembly may have to address the issue of punitive and recurring bad-driving fees imposed solely on Virginians, Gov. Timothy M. Kaine told a statewide radio audience Thursday.

    For the second time in three days, callers upset about the law that takes effect Sunday pressed the governor on a live radio question-and-answer show.


    Here's the part about the transportation funds, though:

    They were passed by the General Assembly this year as part of the first transportation funding reforms in 21 years and are intended to make the worst drivers pay a greater share of the costs of new highways needed statewide.

    They were enacted as fees, not fines, so that the revenue could be applied exclusively to road construction. The state Constitution directs all fines into the state Literary Fund, which helps build new schools and supplement teacher retirement.


    Yeah, that last part is confusing, at best.

    Why only Virginia residents?

    Because they are civil fees and lack the enforcement authority of a fine, they will be collected by the Department of Motor Vehicles as a condition for holding a driver's license. If the fee is not paid, DMV can suspend a driver's license or the privilege of using the state's roads. That's why the fee can only be collected from Virginia residents.

    I dunno. I still say drivers can keep this from happening to them if they want to do so. :P

    Kaine says Assembly may take up Virginians-only bad-driver fees

    (Note: I had to use IE instead of Firefox to see the whole story on that page. :mad: )
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Well, if the bad drivers pay for the roads then they should own it.... :P

    You want extreme penalties? Put a two day jail sentence (more if you'd like)instead of the "fee." Watch how quickly they back away from that one because it would use revenue instead of generating it.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Thanks for the links Pat. The explanations are clearer now. I agree with you, easy since I live in NC ;) , that the best way to avoid these additional 'excessive' taxes is just to drive more cautiously, more safely and follow the traffic laws. Ignoring the traffic laws is not a right it's a risk.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,789
    ..is that if the "fees" really work... and bad drivers see the error of their ways... then there won't be any more "fees" to collect.

    And, the road fund will still be broke..

    I could see it, if there was a connection between bad drivers and the need for road funds. Maybe they could jack up the fees to $100K per offense, and solve the healthcare crisis while they are at it.... ;)

    regards,
    kyfdx
    visiting host

    PS: I'm a little biased... I admit to a heavy foot. :surprise:

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  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,205
    "...the legislation of this state has consistently denied funds for highway improvement..."

    Far be it from me to question the wisdom of an Edmunds host. After all I hear that you have to have 3 Phd's to become one...But...do you really think that any of the money collected by laws such as this will go to highway improvement?

    Here in the people's Republic of New York they have been skinning us alive for years with the promise that the money would go for infrastructure repairs and yet the bridges still keep falling down due to lack of repair.

    They do have plenty of money to fund the New York State Cheese museum though.

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    That's what the law says:

    "Funds collected through the imposition of the fees as provided for in this section shall be used to pay the Department's cost in imposing and collecting such assessments as provided in the general appropriation act, and any remainder shall be deposited into the Highway Maintenance and Operating Fund." link. Since DMV is collecting it, I have a feeling they will be loathe to spend the money on cheese.

    Thanks for posting about this Pat btw. My sister lives up in Northern Virginia - I'm going to call her and tell her to take it easy in her new Forester. :shades:

    [edit] OK, on the phone with my sister and she thinks the new law's a great idea. She doesn't drive under the influence and she's sick of all the idiots in her area speeding and cutting her off!
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    I'm sick of idiots cutting me off and driving under the influence, too. Wait until she gets a $6,000 ticket because she accidentally went 2 mph over the limit and hit a speed trap.

    That's my biggest concern here - the idea that it doesn't reserve the harsh penalties for the worst offenses. It just pushes more revenue. And helps the law firm of the guy who snuck it in.

    Fortunately, if I get caught in Virginia I'll have the advantage of being a non-resident. We are toying with several places to move in a few years. A couple of places in Virginia were on our list. If this doesn't change it'll get crossed off. I can't afford that kind of risk.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Well, you could try Montana. They still speed a lot there as a hangover from the reasonable and prudent days.

    Of course, they also have the highest fatality rate in the country. :P (link)
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Oh, I gave up the lead foot pretty much. Have started aiming at how much I can get out of a gallon...

    When they first opened the Pennsylvania Turnpike it had area with no limit.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • pat84pat84 Member Posts: 817
    We are toying with several places to move in a few years. A couple of places in Virginia were on our list. If this doesn't change it'll get crossed off. I can't afford that kind of risk.
    Fezo,
    Check out TN. No state income tax. They have a 10.5% sales tax, but the cost of living there makes it cheaper than an East Coast State with a lower sales tax.
    We will move there when my wife retires later this year.
  • pat84pat84 Member Posts: 817
    There is bridge on Route 301 from Va to MD. I had Fresnel lense covers on my license tags so no camera could get a picture from above. The license tags could only be viewed from directly in back of them.
    There is a bridge cop.
    I crossed the bridge into MD. I had a radar detector, which is illegal in VA.
    I was doing 85 in a 55. The bridge cop stops me about 5-6 miles past the bridge.
    He asks for my license and registration. He comes up to give me a warning ticket for the Fresnel covers.
    While he's at my window, the radar detector goes off on a MD radar car.
    The bridge cop said nothing about how fast he had to go to catch up with me. He said nothing about the radar detector.
    I almost started laughing. He saw me grinning and said. "You're grinning because you know those covers on your tags are to keep cameras from seeing your tags."
    He sure had me there. :D
  • redmaxxredmaxx Member Posts: 627
    http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/16/1688.asp

    The Minnesota Supreme Court delivers a unanimous decision striking down the legality of red light cameras.

    Open and shut, no discussion, red light cameras violate your rights. Specifically, these cameras violate your right to presumption of innocence and due process.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    The states are getting nicely divided on this issue.

    "State courts in Colorado, Oregon, North Carolina, Iowa and California, as well as the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals and the Superior Court in Washington, D.C., have rejected constitutional challenges to the cameras."

    USA Today

    Wonder if the Supremes will wind up taking it one one year?
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