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I'll leave it at that.
The S-Class and A8 have not won countless awards for their beautiful designs and top-notch construction for nothing.
I don't want to argue with you, because you have very strange opinions and it would be futile to try to change them. The A8 is absolutely gorgeous, inside and out. Have you ever sat in one?
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
That's just an exptrapolation. In fact, it says NOTHING about the original value, and says EVERYTHING about a 5-year value.
Go to ten years, and see what happens. Go to 20 years and see what happens. Often some cars hold a threshhold that others do not. Those long-term values have no relationship to the initial value either. They can change directions as you go further out in time.
TagMan
I am wrong about what?
I am wrong about my frigging own opinion?
Give me a break...
To answer your question, I have sat in an A8 and personally I could name 20 cars easily that have better looking interiors.
A brutally harsh and realistic post, IMO.
And, as you know, I have, in fact driven both the S550 and the LS460L.
I have also made my point about the quite noticeable difference in plastic and center stack design numerous times... since the car show, and after the test drives.
It is quite obvious.
I am not going to say that there is something wrong with the LS, as that is not my point.
I am going to maintain, however, that it is worth the $30,000 lower sticker price that lou has pointed out when compared to the S-Class comparably equipped... and , IMO, the LS460's price increase isn't justified enough, and it is actually worth less than its current sticker price by about another $10,000 - $15,000.
However, if a buyer can get an LS460(L) with a sizeable discount, then I also believe it would be a very good value in the luxury segment... if that is what the buyer is looking for.
TagMan
However, the concensus, on a GLOBAL scale is that the A8 has one of the most refined interiors going.
That said, you are repesctfully entitled to your opinion, but do consider that most of the world thinks otherwise.
TagMan
So much for that, I guess we can just all pack up and go home now...
As for the prices, you can check out my previous post about the "apple-to-apple" LS vs. S-class price comparison.
However, by using your own words I would also remind all people who think the A8 interior is the best in the industry: do not consider that everyone in the world thinks like you just because it seems to be the majority opinion.
Also, it's wrong to say other people are wrong with their own opinion.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions and they deserve respect. There are reasonable ways to disagree. You and I are in total agreement on this.
TagMan
Edit: It's my impression that with regards to OUR interesting discussion today, it was repsectful of each other. I know that I did not feel any disrespect, and I certainly hope that you also feel the same way.
TM
TM
However, when you say that no German car at all deserves reliability recognition, I disagree with that. There have been some German cars, including my Porsche (last year's JD Power report?) ... although the data has slipped on this latest report... that have received recognition for reliability at some points in time, for certain models. same goes for BMW.
But, I would agree that generally, they are not well-known for solid reliability over a long consistent basis. It's a bit irratic, IMO. But it's not at all the nightmare picture that some here have tried to paint. Not even close.
Reliability is only one factor of a vehicle anyway, and the data shows the vehicles to be so close now that the differences are fairly insignificant.
Every time there is an argument about Lexus, the reliability factor is brought up. How interesting is THAT? It's a given.
Reliability and perceived value are the two strong cards in the Lexus hand. Nothing new about that at all.
TagMan
It is obvious that you looked at the LS with the Ottoman (massaging, etc.) rear seating. Hardly anyone orders it with this crazy option. I ordered mine without the rear seat upgrade (want a full size trunk). As I stated earlier, the rear seats are comfortable enough as is. I have every option available except for the rear seat upgrade and Ottoman rear seating. I am paying $81.9K. I don't think that anyone would argue that a comparably equipped (to my LS) S550 would cost more than $100K.
You are obviously entitled to your opinion, but I happen to like the layout of the interior of the LS better than the S550. Additionally, after watching my friend struggle to change the radio station on his S550, I don't want to have anything to do with that control knob ("joystick"). I prefer the touch screen system. Again, as I told TagMan, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder."
A8 Awards:
• EuroCarBody 2003
• Best Luxury Car Over $40,000 - Automotive.com
• Best Large Luxury Car (Autonis 2003)
• Best Sedan Over $45,000 - Edmunds.com Editor's Choice 2004
• Best Sedan Over $45,000 - Edmunds.com Editor's Choice 2005
• Best Sedan Over $45,000 - Edmunds.com Editor's Choice 2006
• Best Sedan Over $60,000 - Edmunds.com Editor's Choice 2007
Argh, it would take me all day to get through the awards it has won. I'm serious. The top three are obscure- but it has garnered countless more important accolades.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
However, if a buyer can get an LS460(L) with a sizeable discount, then I also believe it would be a very good value in the luxury segment... if that is what the buyer is looking for.
Oh, geez, Now I have heard it all....Tagman proclaiming the LS460 is over priced...I guess there are about 3,000 people in the US getting ripped off every month as they buy the LS460....or is it possible, just possible that Tagman is wrong. News to Tagman, just because you think something, it doesn't make it so.
Re-read the very first three letters of my statement that you are replying to...
They are... IMO.
Now, just as louiswei and others have agreed, our OPINIONS are not right or wrong. They are our opinions. But thanks anyway for another hostile reply to one of my posts. At least this time you didn't call me a German-car [non-permissible content removed] like last time.
There have likewise been many posts that have suggested that the S-Class is overpriced. Does that mean that all those buyers are getting ripped off? It's all opinions we have about these cars, and that's what this forum is about. I have showed respect for everyone else's point of view, including yours, and I even proved it when I showed you respect after you called me a [non-permissible content removed] last time.
Now, let's get back on track here and take the time to read what I actually post instead of what you think I post.
I have given credit today to the LS for being a car that offers reliability and value... numerous times!!
In all fairness, what credit have you given the S-Class? :shades:
TagMan
Plus the average hourly wage in Japan is $20. and the average in Germany is $33. so there is your initial price difference. Anyone know how many man hours it takes to build a car?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
If a bottlle of Champagne comes from France, or if a bottle of lady's fine perfume comes from France, it is generally expensive. Why?
You can answer if you want, but it doesn't necessarily matter. That is the price...period.
For a variety of many factors, including labor, but not limited to labor, the Mercedes S-550 is more expensive than the LS460. That's a fact.
It's higher price changes it's affordability and demographics slightly, and it makes the vehicle worth more initially than the LS460. It's just the way it is.
The perceived value that Lou talked about is another matter altogether, and we all know that Lexus has established that for themselves long ago, but the bottom line is still that the S-550 is worth more money as it sits in the showroom, and that's just the way it is!
TagMan
• EuroCarBody 2003
• Best Luxury Car Over $40,000 - Automotive.com
• Best Large Luxury Car (Autonis 2003)
• Best Sedan Over $45,000 - Edmunds.com Editor's Choice 2004
• Best Sedan Over $45,000 - Edmunds.com Editor's Choice 2005
• Best Sedan Over $45,000 - Edmunds.com Editor's Choice 2006
• Best Sedan Over $60,000 - Edmunds.com Editor's Choice 2007
IMPRESSIVE!!!
TM
Hmmm...I wonder why Lexus outsells them about 5 to 1 here. Oh, now I remember. People vote with their wallets. People actually like Lexus. Audi, not so much. And I don't have to pull my punches by saying this is just my opinion. This is fact. :shades:
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Would you be so kind as to put up one major issue of concern of this latest iteration of S-Class? Since it is so "unreliable", it shouldn't take you very long to do so.
That's very rich, even if I must say so. Can the same be said of your joke of an SUV that is as old as grandma, the LX? It wasn't even a blip on the radar last year. Even though there is a new one coming, it's so ugly and disproportioned that it's likely to stay at the bottom of most shoppers list.
I found the controls of my S600 to be simple and intuitive. But then again, I'm one of those folks who mastered i-Drive with ease, so that's up for debate.
BTW, tell your friend to spend an hour or so voice programming the HVAC, audio, bluetooth so that he never has to try to figure out the radio again and he can keep his eyes square on the road.
Your point is correct, but your choice of word "joke" is a jab, of course, at the forum's Audi fans.
Audi historically has not been accepted as either a great value or having great prestige, even with their interiors. And further, their last generation of body designs were not as appealing as what they are now starting to deliver.
Audi is, however, in the beginning of a successful sales ascention in this country with good momentum... it will take time, but they are clearly on their way.
Comparing them to Lexus sales numbers in the U.S. is like comparing Toyota to Subaru. There is no real comparison.
Globally, Audi deserves true respect, and they WILL increase their sales here over time!!
But all your criticism in the world doesn't take away their due credit for their fabulous interiors.
TagMan
Worst interior? An Audi? Very suspicious of the people who'd think that.
As you know, I have the '06 W-12 and the '07 S8. Really by now, I would've been traded up to some newer car like the S550 or Maser QP, but these cars are just that good enough to keep me planted, especially the super-opulent W-12.
And as to VW/Audi being "junk", remember who has a 20% stake into that company: The best sports car maker in the world, Porsche. So by circumstance, that company must be in the company of those words.
BTW, tell your friend to spend an hour or so voice programming the HVAC, audio, bluetooth so that he never has to try to figure out the radio again and he can keep his eyes square on the road.
BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Some folks don't take the time to figure out these interfaces. When I looked at the COMAND system at first, I asked the salesman for a little demo, and it didn't take long for me to realize that the interface was intuitive and easy... it just takes a little time to learn the menu. (It's way better than i-Drive!)
If someone looked at Windows XP or Vista for the first time, would they say it's not worth it?
The Mercedes COMAND is child's play compared to some of the things we have to learn. Heck, some of the cell phones and PDA's are more complicated.
It's all about taking a little time, that's all... instead of being lazy and blaming the device.
And the good news is that once it's learned... it's well worth it!!
TagMan
That brand happens to be Audi. I would love to understand what evokes this unique pattern that happens, oh, about every 3 months here? So I'm now thinking to my self, is Audi a "joke" because it is largely obscure in the US, or is it that they're not sold in mass quantities like some others here? So I opted to take time out to see other high-luxury models that move like slugs in this country just as well:
Lexus LX470
Lexus SC430
Lexus GS
Jaguar XJ
BMW 7-Series
Maserati QP/GT
Aston Martin- any
And this is just a brief list that I thought up quickly. There are more. So this is all to say, because Audi's large cars are sold in limited quantities, this automatically subjects the brand as a "joke"? Then I must ask why the above listed brands and models are not listed as jokes just as well.
BTW- Maybe I should'be just as well included Lambo, the brand that turns out the awesome slaying Murci LP640 and the Gallardo, as it's parent is , you guessed it, a big ol' fat joke: Audi Or maybe Porsche because guess who is making the Tiptronic-replacing DSG? Audi.
You are well-aware that the poster who used the word "joke" did so deliberately to jab at you, me, esf and the others that respect Audi... don't take it too seriously... consider the source.
Those of us that are looking at the world automotive scene understand the credit that is due Audi. And the interesting thing is that Audi is going to be on a tear here soon, and you will have a good laugh at those that considered Audi a joke.
TagMan
TagMan
Anyone who thinks Audi is a joke needs to take a look at the R8. Their first try at a super car, and its better than the 911. Audi was a bit of an also-ran in the '90s, but I agree with Tag, they are finally coming into their element. Interesting designs, brilliant interiors and gear boxes, still the best AWD system in the world, and at least the RS cars are a match for anything BMW can throw at them. The dymanics of the regular cars are still behind BMW or Infiniti, but they are at least moving in the right direction. BMW should be very worried about the RS5.
Maybe this is just semantics, but I don't think "worth" is an appropriate word here. It is accurate to objectively say that an S costs more than an LS. But is it "worth" that extra cost? It is worth the extra cost to those who have bought the S. It is not worth the extra cost to those who have bought the LS. And some of the LS buyers might prefer the LS over the S, regardless of the cost difference.
Just because something outsells something else that doesn't mean it is better. How many industry mags have chosen the LS460 over the A8 in comparison tests? Car & Driver did a test in the Jan '07 issue which included the new LS460, and it finished last (behind the S550, A8, 750, and the Jag). The four year old A8 finished second by one point the new S550. C&D has a pretty good reputation as an enthusiasts magazine.
I have nothing for praise for my favorite German brand. Both of my Audi's have soldiered on without so much as an hiccup.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
LOL, then how would you characterize your comments that the LS interior looks like an explosion in a plastics factory? Who were you jabbing at? Please, relax and don't take yourself so seriously.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
No matter how good the cars are they won't entirely sell themselves like Audi seems to think. They need to upgrade their locations, dealerships, personnel, and advertising in order to get down in the mud and slug it out with everyone else. They seem unable or unwilling to do this. Culture changes are not easy.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Often times the best seller of the segment is there for many reasons but seldom it is due to value. Want examples?
Compact sedan best seller: Toyota Corolla
Midsize sedan best seller: Toyota Camry
Full size sedan best seller: Chevy Impala
Entry level luxury sedan best seller: BMW 3-series
Midsize luxury sedan best seller: BMW 5-series
Full size luxury sedan best seller: Lexus LS460
Compact SUV best seller: Honda CR-V
Mid size SUV best seller: Toyota Highlander
Full size SUV best seller: Chevy Tahoe
Luxury SUV best seller: Lexus RX
I am not going to give any conclusion but I suggest everyone that's reading this post to look at that list and think hard: which one of those are the "best value" in the class? I fully agree that value plays an important role in sales numbers but value doesn't automatically equal to best seller.
The Lexus GS is a good car (I drove it so I know) but I still consider it as a "failure" simply due to its craptaculour sales figures. However, that doesn't mean that I wouldn't consider to buy one. I buy cars (or any goods) based on my need and my preference, not based on a monthly figure that has nothing to do with me.
Here's the awards for the LS:
- World Car of the Year (2007)
- International Car of the Year (2007)
- Best Engineered Vehicle (SAE 2007) (this one's for you, Tag
- Most Wanted Sedan Over $60,000 (Edmunds 2007)
- Most Wanted Car Award in the large luxury class (Edmunds 2002)
- Best Luxury Sedan (Driver's Choice Awards, MotorWeek 2007)
- Best Interior Styling (luxury sedan category, Kelley Blue Book 2007) (this one's for all you knocking on LS' beautiful interior,
- Ward's Interior Awards - Best Overall Comfort (2007)
- Automotive Excellence Award (Popular Mechanics 2007)
- Best of What's New in Automotive Technology (Popular Science December 2006)
- "Best Car We Ever Tested." (Consumer Reports 2004, 2005)
You can find the full list here: Lexus LS awards list
I truly agree.
However, given that you are the one saying that I am looking forward to see the same post from you in the future if Lexus or any other brands have gotten the same "joke" treatment.
Just keep that in mind.
Same thing could be said to all the LS bashers.
It doesn't matter if the LS was endorsed by the world 100 times over (see the LS awards list couple posts ahead), some people will not give this car credit when it's due.
See, when you are pointing a finger at somebody, there are always three pointing back at you.
clembo and blkhemi,
If it's the review I have in mind, it is beyond the shadow of a doubt that C & D review was flawed beyond belief. Yes, there was a tremendous squabble here about that review. C & D used a pre-production LS in its test. Among, other things, it had the breaking distance way wrong and also the fuel efficiency (something like 14 mpg average) was totally bogus. Later tests revealed that the LS had one of the shortest breaking distances in its class. Also most people are getting 27-30 mpg on the highway and 17-19 in the city. That article was very deceiving to say the least. They used a pre-production model and made it sound like that was full production model. If that review had been accurate, there is no way in hell the new LS would have been named the International Car of the Year.
The C&D has a very enthusiastic approach (sometimes much more than others) to its comparison tests so its no secret that its favorite are BMW for the luxury brand and Honda for the mainstream brand. I wouldn't say that I agree with them but at least they have been pretty consistent with the approach. Personally I think R&T has a more balanced approach so I wonder how does the LS fare in R&T's comparison.
That's the main reason why I take those comparos with a grain of salt, due to my driving style, my personal preference and the road condition that I commute on, the best handling car is not always the best. I am also convinced that many people agree with me on this because if not, then Lexus should just pack up and go home since they often finished near the bottom. However, last I checked, Lexus is still the best selling luxury brand in the US. Consumers voted with their wallets and car mags voted with their type writers, go figure...
Which brings us to this car's essence. Namely: that it is a sleek, supremely appointed, luxuriously outfitted freeway flier. You can fingertip-steer this baby down the I-5 from San Francisco to San Diego without straining a muscle. You can even bend it through the twisties on, say, New York's Sawmill River Parkway (where David Letterman gets all his tickets) without working up a sweat. But if you're thinking of taking on the Nordschleife at the Nürburgring, then you may be in for some disappointment. Because at 59.9 mph in the slalom and 0.80g on the skidpad where it understeers heavily, the LS 460 is not a "numbers" car.
Not that this will matter to the average luxury sedan buyer who's looking for a smooth, quiet ride that offers elegance, quality and reliability. Not to mention the solid reputation of Lexus.
They took the words right out of my mouth, couldn't say it better myself.
Source: Road & Track
Over the course of time, since the LS460 was released, practically EVERY poster on this board (and you can check the archives to validate this if you are motivated enough) gave some sort of credit to the LS460 in various ways.
Some based it upon an improvement in exterior style (with the bangled rear), others praised it for its quiet ride, and others for it's reliability, and so forth and so on.
I, as well as some others, took the time to thoroughly drive and test the car. I wrote my review afterwards, and I had a lot of praise for several attributes of the car, as well as the criticisms that I felt were justified, IMO.
That process seems legitimate to me. It does not sound like bashing.
I have also pointed out some justified criticisms in the past at Mercedes Benz, and criticisms of the very cars that I currently own or have owned in the past.
IMO, sometimes readers don't look at the full picture.
TagMan
Well, as long as the comments like "plastic factory explosion" exist, replies like "Town Car inspired interior" will just keep on coming.
Simple as that.
But, clearly, and this is a BIG difference... You know that I never deliberately jabbed anyone on a personal basis with regards to the description.
I know most people here give credit when it's due and Tag you are one of them.
Thanks, I try, but I still have my own preferences and opinions that can be strong at times. No doubt about it!
What is disturbing to me is when a poster takes my, or someone else's, opinion too seriously, and gets all up in arms. That's when the enjoyment disappears.
IMO, there is a big difference in digging into the cars, and not respecting some of the posters.
Wouldn't you agree?
Anyway, Lou, back to the CARS!!
TagMan
However, all these enjoyments can be stopped very quickly with statements like "you are wrong". Especially when this "you are wrong" is toward to an opinion that other poster expressed, not a fact.
You are right though, let's get back to cars.